Existential Cameron question for intelligent discussion

[drewspin]

This is only meant to be thought-provoking, not bashing, so please consider this question in the spirit it is offered.

 

Does there come a point in time when a Cameron putter stamped with a Circle-T no longer conveys the meaning that the putter was made "For Tour Use Only"?

 

I understand the value that a tour player's initials hand-stamped with square periods may add, as a Scotty hallmark associated with ownership by a Tour player, however, with more and more "Tour" putters being made expressly for sale through select retailers, will there come a point in time when Circle-T only represents a cool stamp?

 

Discuss.

[TM golf guy]

First off, good question.

 

Secondly, I think you may have a point. It is becoming quite easy to find a tour Cameron now. You may have to search longer for the one you want, but there are tons out there.

 

Im interested to see all the answers for this topic.

[Boba]

It's already just a cool stamp that makes your putter sell for more $.

[Gxgolfer]

Like headcovers, certain ones will retain value and others will fluctuate. Circle T bag tags and markers available via the Studio, I think reduces some of the mystique. Some say its an artifically inflated market manipulated by the few. As the qtys become more plentiful, ebay/market prices should float with it. Seeing someone with a Circle T on the course still seems like a very rare occurence for me.

[tdcollectors]

There are more SC collectors everyday. Therefore, the demand will be high and so will the value. Anything with SC logo will be sought after.

A few years ago, a Tour putter was one that was used by a player on the Tour. With all the Tour putters issued today, will they really be played on the Tour? No, made for collectors only. I feel that SC's will always be collected and top dollar paid for them.

[MCDavis]

I don't understand the allure of a tour product anyway. If it's truly designed for a tour player, then there's no way in heck that it's going to fit my game (or most of your's). If it's not truly designed for a tour player, then I agree with boba that it just inflates the value.

 

The above would go for any "tour issue" product, not just SC Circle T's, IMHO.

[yankees06]

i know for sure that one of my "tour" putters is a legit tour one, because of who it came from. The other two are probaly circle T's made for collectors. but i still like them.

[drewspin]

I don't understand the allure of a tour product anyway. If it's truly designed for a tour player, then there's no way in heck that it's going to fit my game (or most of your's). If it's not truly designed for a tour player, then I agree with boba that it just inflates the value.

 

The above would go for any "tour issue" product, not just SC Circle T's, IMHO.

 

I am a fan of custom fitting, yes. That said, the set up of putters varies a lot less than, for example, drivers. With putters there are a narrower range of variables for putter design:

 

Length (generally between 36 and 33 inches for non-long putters);

 

Loft (generally between 3-6 degrees)

 

Lie angle (generally between 70-74*), and

 

Headweight (generally from about 320 to about 375 grams).

 

The chances that a putter made for a tour pro might fit Joe Bogey re probably no different than an off the rack putter fitting Joe Bogey.

 

IMHO, putters are not much like a driver built for a tour pros that would be poorly suited to most aveage joes (shaft too stiff, loft too low, face angles generally open, headweights too high, etc.).

 

I can see the appeal of putters that once belonged to PGA touring professionals simply because the tweaks from standard might fit the average Joe Bogey pretty well.

[MCDavis]

Ok, drew, I agree with your post about putters that actually belonged to and were used by tour pros, and that putters are different from drivers.

 

But, I still question the extra $$ just because it says "Circle T" or "Tour Only". To me, without it coming out of a successful touring pro's bag, those words really mean nothing.

[drewspin]

I still question the extra $$ just because it says "Circle T" or "Tour Only". To me, without it coming out of a successful touring pro's bag, those words really mean nothing.

 

Yeah, sure. That's basically the purpose of this whole thread... to elicit views and explore the question of whether the Circle-T and For Tour Use Only cocepts and icons:

 

(1) still have the meaning that a plain reading of the words/symbols would suggest; or

 

(2) have lost the original meaning and found a new meaning among collectors; or

 

(3) mean nothing more than an imprint in some steel; or

 

(x) have an infinite number of other meanings.

[MCDavis]

(3)

[drewspin]

I feel that SC's will always be collected and top dollar paid for them.

 

Always is a very long time.

[RobotDoctor]

drewspin, good question. By the way the Circle T stamp is not trademarked by Scotty.

 

A Circle T stamped putter has little affect on me as to whether I desire one or not. Yes, a CT putter is generally a Tour issued putter but many are being made for collectors. CT Putters originate from the Studio and not Acushnet as OTRs are. Maybe this will affect the quality of materials used from the studio as opposed to OTR products. Who knows? I don't.

 

I am not a collector and never want to be. I own just a few OTRs and game them. The next putter I will purchase will be an OTR as well. If a CT happened to drop in my lap then I would pleased but I will not go out of my way to purchase one. The CT stamp is cool. If I had a custom putter built by Scotty, the CT stamp would not make it on my putter. I think the 7 Point Crown is a much nicer stamp and that would make it on my custom, built by Scotty, putter.

[drewspin]

. . . By the way the Circle T stamp is not trademarked by Scotty.

 

 

You sure? Perhaps they licensed it.

 

Excerpt from fine print

Trademarks:

 

The following is a list of some of the trademarks owned or licensed by Acushnet Company used on or with Scotty Cameron by Titleist products:

 

Big Sur, Bulls Eye Design, Cameron Crown Design, Catalina, Coronado, Del Mar, Laguna, Mil-Spec, Napa, Newport, Newport Two, Oil Can, Polka Dot Design, Pro Platinum, Santa Fe, Scotty Cameron, Scotty Cameron by Titleist, Scottydale, Sonoma, Studio Design, Teryllium, TeI3, The Art of Putting, T in Oval Design, Titleist.

 

See also

 

"Trademark/Intellectual Property modifications

 

A putter is considered to have trademark and/or intellectual property modifications if an original Scotty Cameron putter has infringing stampings such as the crown logo, circle T stamp, Titleist logo, etc., made outside the Studio."

[MCDavis]

What does OTR stand for?

 

 

Ok, stop laughing and answer the question...

[drewspin]

OTR = off the rack

[Caligula]

Off The Rack - Not made in limited edition or for the tour. Mines is all rackers all four of 'em.

[xxio]

As more and more good golfers turn pro (and get sponsored by Titleist/Cobra) more and more CTs will get out there.

 

The increased production will devalue it somewhat, that is a fact that exists for all "desireables"/limited edition/rare items.

 

IMHO there is still room for CTs prices to peak as they get more and more into Joe Public's eye, then it will crash (at least level off) when majority of the people start buying them purely for investment purposes.

[rollingrock]

Just my opinion, but Camerons seem a little "common." Ten years ago it was something special to have one in your bag, but you can't get away from them now.

 

I've never seen a Circle T in person, but I don't think I'd be in awe if I did. The constant exposure to the brand is a litte desensitizing.

[MCDavis]

Just my opinion, but Camerons seem a little "common." Ten years ago it was something special to have one in your bag, but you can't get away from them now.

 

I've never seen a Circle T in person, but I don't think I'd be in awe if I did. The constant exposure to the brand is a litte desensitizing.

There are 9th graders playing on our muni course here that have Camerons in the bag.

The kid working at GG told me he collects them...looked to be maybe 18.

 

They are definitely popular for play and collecting, but I agree with rollingrock's point.

[jcigars]

I don't know guys Scotty's making tons of money...he's doing something right. I own a Tour Faxday that IMO is unique, You will not find another one that's identical to it...let me know if you do. He markets his products very well IMO. Here's my putter. I'm a huge Bettinadi fan btw

 

 

 

 

[choeppner]

Dangit JImmy.....Everytime I see that putter I want to drive to your house. LOL Love it :):):):) Umm...you did forget my B-day this year :bb: :D :D :stop: :stop:

 

 

 

-CHRIS-

[jcigars]

Chris..thanks man. I was lucky to get it really. I wished you happy b-day..lol

[martinIII]

That putter is amazing. The laguna style IMHO is by far the best. I love em. Your putter is also really nice bacause you put my initials on there, very thoughtful of you. Will you ever sell it???

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah, on this topic. The circle T is becoming way over used. I am fed up with seeing 4th graders with CTs that say happy 10th bithday on them. I know a 12 year old who has an original FaxDay, 2 IBDDs, 2 IBDLs, and a handful of newport tours that would make your jaw drop. Scotty is really nice to be making bithday presents for children, but could he just leave off the circle T!!

[smarshal75]

I agree with MartinIII, the Circle T has lost its rarity. I don't even think collector clubs should receive a Circle T. Tour only, that being those putters made specifically for a touring pro, whether used or not, should only be stamped with the Circle T.

[rollingrock]

I'm definitely not taking a shot at Scotty - he makes some of the finest putters in the world, and he's leveraging that fact for huge dollars. It's just that the hand stamps & tour markings kind of lose a little bit when you feel like they are just being pumped out by the 1000s every year.

[Puttersammler]

Very nice avatar rollingrock!! Thumbs up.

[finalist]

BUT does scotty, and by scotty I mean the actuall guy Donald Cameron, even touch a putter these days? He is so big time that as legend has it he doesn't even make putters any more... his staff does (I'm talking about custom non-OTR stuff). To me this may not affect the craftsmanship, but it makes it feel less boutique. His custom shop stuff is great, his retail stuff is ok, but having a cameron doesn't feel special to me any more when everyone has one or wants one. bandwagon.

[drewspin]

This is all personal opinion, of course, but I have always thought that buying a club because of the circle T was silly. What sets scotty tour putters apart in my mind are the differences in craftsmanship and materials than OTR putters.

 

By difference in material, do you mean, for example, the difference between a 100% milled tour putter versus a OTR putters that are forged then only have the faces milled ?

 

I personally don't care if it was made for tour or for the lead singer of ZZ Top. If Scotty personally shaped, welded, or stamped it and put in his time and effort, that's what makes it a true collectors item for me.

 

The fun of collecting is owning a putter that someone like scotty or byron or mills personally encapsulated their genius and creativity inside of.

 

I agree 100%. Good post.

[tpariff]

Here's what I think:

 

1. The Circle T or "For Tour Use Only" or any other tour specific stamp or mark is really only a symbol used to designate that putter as something other than OTR. It may or may not mean it was played on a tour or by a tour pro.

 

2. There are basically two broad categories of Scotty putters, sans Garage or Handmades, etc which are extremely rare: "Tour" and "OTR". With a tour putter there are options not available on an OTR. Have you ever seen an original 3X Oil Can OTR? Nope. Someone may take an OTR and have it refinished by someone other than Scotty, but that doesn't make it a "tour" putter. With a "tour" putter, you can special order it for head style, length, headweight, loft, and finish. You can no longer specify stamps or grip style, but you have many more options than going down to Edwin Watts and buying a $289 Studio Style like the next guy has.

 

3. The term "For Tour Use Only" is part marketing, part product differentiation. Product differentiation - see #2 above regarding differences. With regard to headcovers, those marked FTUO are typically sold or given away with a "tour" putter. Granted there is a secondary market where they are bought and sold. Try getting one by sending in your OTR for a restoration.

 

Product marketing - Scotty and Titleist are marketing masterminds when it comes to Scotty's products. It makes some people feel really good if they are playing a putter very similar if not identical to one of the tour pros. This drives the market.

 

4. One of the posts above mentioned something about a bunch of tour putters floating around, etc. Really? Where? I check eBay, TCC, here, and other sites almost daily looking for tour putters. The supply is purposely limited to create more demand and to make sure the quality and craftsmanship is upheld. Anyone who's ordered a custom putter knows this, whether a Cameron, a Mills, a Slighter, etc. They're not made overnight, nor are they produced in masses like OTRs.

 

Case in point: The 009. There's not a single 009 on eBay right now. There's only a couple available through Table Rock Golf, one of the 2 authorized distributors in the U.S. now that Art of Putters has closed. Seaside Hamamatsu Golf in Japan is sold out. I don't know how many Dalton / What The Pros Play has, but there are none on his site. So basically there are less than 5 NEW 009s available for anyone to buy. And we have what, almost 300 million people in the US alone. I don't like those odds.

 

5. FTUO / Circle T vs. some other stamp. This is interesting because I can't think of a better way to describe the "tour" putters produced by Scotty. Think about it...if he made a putter for me very similar to the one DLIII plays, and didn't stamp it with a Circle T and give me a FTUO headcover, what should he give me? Should he give me a headcover that reads "For Some 35 Year Old Guy Who Spent $2,500 On This Putter"? Or maybe he should stamp the putter with a Circle $ since I paid that much money for a putter.

 

So, to answer the question: The CT or FTUO stamp / symbol is much more than a cool stamp. It differentiates an OTR from a "tour" putter as broadly defined. And FWIW, I've been playing golf for 16 years and have only played with a few people who had CT or "tour" putters. However, I've played with many a guy using an OTR.

 

Just my $2.