Are Today's Golf Courses Unfair to the Average Golfer?

[SurfDuffer]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356382409' post='6112943']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356321121' post='6110325']
Hmmm...weird.

[size=2]Phil Mickelson: "Modern-day architecture is the single-most reason why play & participation in golf has declined. It's too hard.” [url="https://mail.sehmslaw.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://bit.ly/UQ2Gek"]http://bit.ly/UQ2Gek[/url]

[url="https://mail.sehmslaw.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://twitter.com/GolfDigestMag/status/283054406369419264"]http://twitter.com/G...054406369419264[/url][/size]
[/quote]

Interesting quote KD. He pretty much echoes what Luke Donald and others have said. I wonder what the naysayers have to say in response to Phil Mickelson?
[/quote]

When was the last time Phil played a course that us commoners play? 25 years ago? You think he might be a little out of touch?

[mikpga]

[quote name='golfin2' timestamp='1355794846' post='6083403']
This is a great thread. Here are questions I ask:
[list]
[*]Why can't I play a course how the pros play it?
[/list]
For example, the pros regularly have courses that have 4 par 5s that they can get on the green in 2 shots if they hit two great shots. However, as an amateur golfer (6 handicap) I never get this opportunity. I always have a third shot. Sometimes the 3rd hit is with a 5 wood, and that's after two good shots because of how long the hole is (600 yd par 5s). I would LOVE the chance to go for a green on my second shot of a par 5.

I can play a full nine holes where I don't have anything shorter into a par 4 than a 5 hybrid. Why can't I play par 4s driver and pitching wedge like pros do all the time (or long hitting amateurs). All I want is to have the same set of clubs that the pros hit on the second shot of par 4s, which is usually a lot of wedges. Instead I have to fire 3- hybrids into bunkered greens all day. You can easily ask who is playing the harder game?
[list]
[*]Why aren't there tee boxes appropriate to my distance level that I don't feel guilty playing?
[/list]
I'm regularly forced to play the "regular men's tees" that are 6700 yards. Anything farther up is senior tees and embarrassing. There should be MANY more sets of tees. Or I saw a suggestion earlier in the thread of hybrid tees - Great - give me another set of tees at 6000 yards - and a hybrid set thats 6350. Some courses do have more appropriate yardages for me and I play them and enjoy it much more. I just find that so many clubs have the "member's tees" at 6700 or more.
[list]
[*]It seems there are two differing ideas being discussed in this thread.
[/list][list=1]
[*]The average golfer is playing a course that is too long for him
[*]The average golfer is playing courses that have features of course design that are too difficult and unduly punish players with penalty shots (things included in this would be: extremely tight out of bounds markers, water lined fairways, severely deep bunkers around greens preventing run up shots, elevated greens, excessively undulating greens, etc.)
[/list]
[list]
[*]Solving 1.
[/list]

It should be very easy to solve this problem. The Tee it Forward program is a great initiative. What needs to happen is on a course by course basis. I would propose the following:
[list=1]
[*]All courses need a set of men's tees that are 6000-6300 yards long that men do not feel guilty or embarassed to play.
[*]On some courses tees would need to be added at this length.
[*]Other courses need to modify their tee boxes. Make the back tees a more difficult sounding name or color. Make the tees Gold or Silver or Professional for the tips. Make the next set Black and make the shorter tees Blue. Stop making Blue be 6750 and White be 6100.
[*]I feel there should be many more sets of tees. If there were 6 sets of men's tees per course everyone could just play their own tee and no one would feel as embarassed. Make them 7200 - 7000 - 6800 - 6600 - 6400 - 6200 or similar. Everything in this world is heading towards more and more customization. Golf tee positions should too.
[/list]
[list]
[*]Solving 2.
[/list][list=1]
[*]This is a far more difficult problem to solve as once a course is built it can't change that much.
[*]Some of the modern course designs are definitely a lot more unplayable for the average golfer. Adding tees (as listed above) may help. If people are hitting a pitching wedge into a bunkered green rather than a hybrid that would help a lot. In terms of difficulty off the tee in certain instances this may help also. People could use something other than driver off the tee if a tough hole is shorter.
[*]I don't think it is bad that there are tough holes that require precision - as long as the golfer is playing the proper length hole for them it makes things more reasonable. I do think more courses should be MUCH more open off the tee - and let the difficulty of the green or pin position play more of a role than just dishing out penalty strokes for every wayward drive.
[/list]

Those are my thoughts, coming from someone who deeply understands all the issues related to this topic.
[/quote]

What makes it embarrassing?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356388166' post='6113237']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356384810' post='6113075']
Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.
[/quote]

I think you may be comparing apple to boa constrictors. Mickelson has played in enough pro-am's to know what he's talking about (I don't know what clothes or cars have to do with any of this).
[/quote]

I've played in many of those same pro-ams, and The Bridges. Sorry, but opinion of a pro golfer is just that, an opinion. Course, if you choose to live by a pro golfers thoughts, and it so happens to coincidence with yours, have at it.

PS, if you can put up the entry fee in a pro-am, it doesn't matter what your index is, every amateur plays from the white easy tees. That's when we see just how real those 12-20 indexes are...

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356556557' post='6119361']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356388166' post='6113237']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356384810' post='6113075']
Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.
[/quote]

I think you may be comparing apple to boa constrictors. Mickelson has played in enough pro-am's to know what he's talking about (I don't know what clothes or cars have to do with any of this).
[/quote]

I've played in many of those same pro-ams, and The Bridges. Sorry, but opinion of a pro golfer is just that, an opinion. Course, if you choose to live by a pro golfers thoughts, and it so happens to coincidence with yours, have at it.

PS, if you can put up the entry fee in a pro-am, it doesn't matter what your index is, every amateur plays from the white easy tees. That's when we see just how real those 12-20 indexes are...
[/quote]

No, never played in a pro-am. No, never had the money. My last job was working with teens who had severe emotional and behavioral problems in an alternative high school (not a high paying job, but very rewarding when you could break through to them and/or get them out of a horrible situation). I don't know about the white tees being the "easy" tees, I guess that's a matter of opinion too. No, never met a PGA professional.

I agree a pro golfer's opinion is just an opinion when it comes to most things, but they probably know a bit more about golf then you or me. After all, that is there profession. Just like a mechanic know more about automobiles, an accountant know more about taxes, a lawyer knows more about the law, and a doctor knows more about medicine.

[profsmitty]

Ninety-nine percent of my golf life, I play munis and semi-private courses. Three-fourths of one percent of the time, I play resort courses. That means very little of my golf life is spent playing courses anyone has played tournament golf on. If we are talking about the courses I play and the courses most of us play, difficulty probably isn't a function of the course. Difficulty is within me and my crappy golf swing. I'll leave it to you to define your own personal source of difficulty.

I am convinced that the greatest threat to our game is the lack of courses when kids can learn to play the way I learned to play. I came from a very middle class family that fought to stay middle class every day. I learned to play on a goat-farm course that charged $3.00 for all the golf you could play. I rode my bike to the course with my 7-piece set of Wilson Crest women's clubs on the handlebars. I learned to play with my friends, pounding the ball on rock hard fairways and putting on greens that were just barely green.

We had a ball. I learned a sport that has been a part of my life every day since. Where does a kid today in a similar economic situation learn to play the game? Those goat farm courses are gone unless you live in a Kansas small town. If they do exist, kids who see golf tournaments played on manicured pieces of heaven 24/7 wouldn't get on them. Four 12 year olds walking on to one of our munis, crowded with golf's "speed at any cost" mentality would find no toleration for the 130 shots per round, 10 lost balls, 3 overs/shot rounds that helped me and my buddies learn to play.

We have created a monster, in my opinion. Our tastes and preferences have created an environment that almost insures that any economic egalitarianism in the world of golf a la First Tee and the like are a convenient illusion. We need to rethink our ideas about our sport immediately. Golf course designers like Geoff Shackleford have it about right. Courses that are rougher around the edges, not over-watered, over-manicured, and over-impressed with themselves, that are less expensive to maintain so that there can be more of them, that are less of a drain on community resources, that are more accessible to 12 year old kids, and courses with golfers who are less worried about 3 hour rounds and more concerned about letting kids learn the game are the only answer.

We jolly-well better wise up or our sport will quickly return to the sport of the country club set and wanna'bes in the next generation. JMHO

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356558161' post='6119489']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356556557' post='6119361']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356388166' post='6113237']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356384810' post='6113075']
Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.
[/quote]

I think you may be comparing apple to boa constrictors. Mickelson has played in enough pro-am's to know what he's talking about (I don't know what clothes or cars have to do with any of this).
[/quote]

I've played in many of those same pro-ams, and The Bridges. Sorry, but opinion of a pro golfer is just that, an opinion. Course, if you choose to live by a pro golfers thoughts, and it so happens to coincidence with yours, have at it.

PS, if you can put up the entry fee in a pro-am, it doesn't matter what your index is, every amateur plays from the white easy tees. That's when we see just how real those 12-20 indexes are...
[/quote]

No, never played in a pro-am. No, never had the money. My last job was working with teens who had severe emotional and behavioral problems in an alternative high school (not a high paying job, but very rewarding when you could break through to them and/or get them out of a horrible situation). I don't know about the white tees being the "easy" tees, I guess that's a matter of opinion too. No, never met a PGA professional.

I agree a pro golfer's opinion is just an opinion when it comes to most things, but they probably know a bit more about golf then you or me. After all, that is there profession. Just like a mechanic know more about automobiles, an accountant know more about taxes, a lawyer knows more about the law, and a doctor knows more about medicine.
[/quote]

I've played with a enough of them to know -their knowledge evolves around tour life, and courses in rotation, not so much about whether or not public courses are too difficult for the general golfing population, or even their home clubs. The only time most of them play golf with mid-hi index golfers is during pro-ams, but when not on tour, they play at their private clubs or upscale resort facilities. I know Porsche mechanics that don't know much anything about GM cars...

[Sean2]

[quote name='profsmitty' timestamp='1356560380' post='6119667']
Ninety-nine percent of my golf life, I play munis and semi-private courses. Three-fourths of one percent of the time, I play resort courses. That means very little of my golf life is spent playing courses anyone has played tournament golf on. If we are talking about the courses I play and the courses most of us play, difficulty probably isn't a function of the course. Difficulty is within me and my crappy golf swing. I'll leave it to you to define your own personal source of difficulty.

I am convinced that the greatest threat to our game is the lack of courses when kids can learn to play the way I learned to play. I came from a very middle class family that fought to stay middle class every day. I learned to play on a goat-farm course that charged $3.00 for all the golf you could play. I rode my bike to the course with my 7-piece set of Wilson Crest women's clubs on the handlebars. I learned to play with my friends, pounding the ball on rock hard fairways and putting on greens that were just barely green.

We had a ball. I learned a sport that has been a part of my life every day since. Where does a kid today in a similar economic situation learn to play the game? Those goat farm courses are gone unless you live in a Kansas small town. If they do exist, kids who see golf tournaments played on manicured pieces of heaven 24/7 wouldn't get on them. Four 12 year olds walking on to one of our munis, crowded with golf's "speed at any cost" mentality would find no toleration for the 130 shots per round, 10 lost balls, 3 overs/shot rounds that helped me and my buddies learn to play.

We have created a monster, in my opinion. Our tastes and preferences have created an environment that almost insures that any economic egalitarianism in the world of golf a la First Tee and the like are a convenient illusion. We need to rethink our ideas about our sport immediately. Golf course designers like Geoff Shackleford have it about right. Courses that are rougher around the edges, not over-watered, over-manicured, and over-impressed with themselves, that are less expensive to maintain so that there can be more of them, that are less of a drain on community resources, that are more accessible to 12 year old kids, and courses with golfers who are less worried about 3 hour rounds and more concerned about letting kids learn the game are the only answer.

We jolly-well better wise up or our sport will quickly return to the sport of the country club set and wanna'bes in the next generation. JMHO
[/quote]

My coach/friend played on exactly the course you described. I'm late to the sport, but I think the days you described are long gone. I know a lot of courses in my area that won't even let kids on the course until after a certain time of day, which is too bad. Our practice facility has no such restrictions. I like nothing more then seeing a bunch of those kids trundling down the fairways with their bags over their shoulders.

As I said in an earlier post (quoting one of Bandon Dunes designers), and as you alluded to, developers want architects to build them championship courses. For who I don't know. As you said, maybe they want to impress themselves. Because the vast majority of golfers don't have the skills to play those types of courses.

I hope our sport isn't going in the direction you stated. The First Tee is a nice program, but where do these kids play and practice? Where do they go after the media has come and gone?

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356560595' post='6119687']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356558161' post='6119489']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356556557' post='6119361']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356388166' post='6113237']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356384810' post='6113075']
Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.
[/quote]

I think you may be comparing apple to boa constrictors. Mickelson has played in enough pro-am's to know what he's talking about (I don't know what clothes or cars have to do with any of this).
[/quote]

I've played in many of those same pro-ams, and The Bridges. Sorry, but opinion of a pro golfer is just that, an opinion. Course, if you choose to live by a pro golfers thoughts, and it so happens to coincidence with yours, have at it.

PS, if you can put up the entry fee in a pro-am, it doesn't matter what your index is, every amateur plays from the white easy tees. That's when we see just how real those 12-20 indexes are...
[/quote]

No, never played in a pro-am. No, never had the money. My last job was working with teens who had severe emotional and behavioral problems in an alternative high school (not a high paying job, but very rewarding when you could break through to them and/or get them out of a horrible situation). I don't know about the white tees being the "easy" tees, I guess that's a matter of opinion too. No, never met a PGA professional.

I agree a pro golfer's opinion is just an opinion when it comes to most things, but they probably know a bit more about golf then you or me. After all, that is there profession. Just like a mechanic know more about automobiles, an accountant know more about taxes, a lawyer knows more about the law, and a doctor knows more about medicine.
[/quote]

I've played with a enough of them to know -their knowledge evolves around tour life, and courses in rotation, not so much about whether or not public courses are too difficult for the general golfing population, or even their home clubs. The only time most of them play golf with mid-hi index golfers is during pro-ams, but when not on tour, they play at their private clubs or upscale resort facilities. I know Porsche mechanics that don't know much anything about GM cars...
[/quote]

Then why would Donald, Mickelson, etc., say that today's courses are too difficult for today's golfer? They must have some point of reference. That said, the Porsche mechanic would still know more about a GM engine than the lay person. :-)

[Imp]

When was the last time they played a $20 play all day 9 hole or $30-$40 muni?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356561805' post='6119773']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356560595' post='6119687']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356558161' post='6119489']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356556557' post='6119361']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356388166' post='6113237']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356384810' post='6113075']
Just because McDonald or Michelson say what some of you are saying, doesn't mean they are right, moreover, I should change my beliefs. I don't make decisions based upon what Pro golfers do, wear, drive, have in their bag, furthermore, what they think about the price of rice in China. For all we know, their hidden agenda might be to better position themselves for future design jobs.
[/quote]

I think you may be comparing apple to boa constrictors. Mickelson has played in enough pro-am's to know what he's talking about (I don't know what clothes or cars have to do with any of this).
[/quote]

I've played in many of those same pro-ams, and The Bridges. Sorry, but opinion of a pro golfer is just that, an opinion. Course, if you choose to live by a pro golfers thoughts, and it so happens to coincidence with yours, have at it.

PS, if you can put up the entry fee in a pro-am, it doesn't matter what your index is, every amateur plays from the white easy tees. That's when we see just how real those 12-20 indexes are...
[/quote]

No, never played in a pro-am. No, never had the money. My last job was working with teens who had severe emotional and behavioral problems in an alternative high school (not a high paying job, but very rewarding when you could break through to them and/or get them out of a horrible situation). I don't know about the white tees being the "easy" tees, I guess that's a matter of opinion too. No, never met a PGA professional.

I agree a pro golfer's opinion is just an opinion when it comes to most things, but they probably know a bit more about golf then you or me. After all, that is there profession. Just like a mechanic know more about automobiles, an accountant know more about taxes, a lawyer knows more about the law, and a doctor knows more about medicine.
[/quote]

I've played with a enough of them to know -their knowledge evolves around tour life, and courses in rotation, not so much about whether or not public courses are too difficult for the general golfing population, or even their home clubs. The only time most of them play golf with mid-hi index golfers is during pro-ams, but when not on tour, they play at their private clubs or upscale resort facilities. I know Porsche mechanics that don't know much anything about GM cars...
[/quote]

Then why would Donald, Mickelson, etc., say that today's courses are too difficult for today's golfer? They must have some point of reference. That said, the Porsche mechanic would still know more about a GM engine than the lay person. :-)
[/quote]

Your question suggests because they opined, they must have subject matter credibility regarding today's golfer. Sorry, but that's not true. A great many people have opinions, even about subjects where they have, at most, rudimentary exposure. Just look at how many talk like they are experts for all of today's golfer, yet they are not remotely exposed to all of today's golfers.

[Sean2]

^^^I don't know Pepper, I think today's PGA pro has a lot of exposure to today's golfer.

[SurfDuffer]

The real answer isn't catering to adults who suck at the game. The answer is catering to kids just starting out. Without programs for kids the sport fades away. Sad to say I can't get my son to play despite the fact that he has tremendous talent. There simply aren't other kids around here his age to play with. If each club across the country would make it a goal to have a Jr. program with 20 active kids the sport would be healthy for a long time to come.

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354150973' post='5992543']
Golf was never supposed to be easy.
[/quote]

This^^^^^^

Most of us welcome the challenge, and that is what makes the game so great. If it was too easy then I don't know if I would like it as much as I do. I also don't understand how the average score and handicap has not changed in the past twenty years. I am about 20 strokes better than I was twenty years ago and most of the people I play golf with are better too. I wonder if the data is accurate. If it is, I would love to see a deep dive into it to see if the comparisons are truly valid. It just doesn't make sense that the improved equipment doesn't translate into better scores.

[Pepperturbo]

Excellent points[b] @SurfDuffer.[/b] My son, who came in second in the kids club championship using my blades, has a beautiful swing and exposure to what others possibly dream about, yet he's not interested in golf, and my club had programs for kids. He felt golf was too hard to master, and many of the club members kids felt the same. Lazy lot that shy's away from tackling challenges that require serious focus, tenacity and overcoming obstacles. We owe that to computer games, but that's another subject. His mother and I are hopeful his attitude will change with time and maturity. I noticed that programs for kids takes a great deal of energy and resources at private clubs; not sure those same resources are available at public courses. But, you're right that's where it starts, and people that think like you and me have to make the difference.

PS, I especially like where you say: "The real answer isn't catering to adults who suck at the game." Like letting the slowest ship in the convey establish the pace and those with no talent make up team sports.

[Sean2]

^^^

"The real answer isn't catering to adults who suck at the game."

If that is anyone above a scratch golfer, which is what you two seem to be, then that is approximately 26,000,000 golfers in the United States.

[Pepperturbo]

"Suck at the game" has nothing to do with scratch or low index. Its a frame of mind, which for some reason, eludes some people. It means someone that stays at 18 handicap or never gets an index,etc.. because he's too lazy to put in the time, yet expects the golf world to design courses to meet his slow ship, suck at the game mentality, so he can feel better about himself.

[Imp]

[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356712474' post='6129101']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354150973' post='5992543']
Golf was never supposed to be easy.
[/quote]

I also don't understand how the average score and handicap has not changed in the past twenty years. I am about 20 strokes better than I was twenty years ago and most of the people I play golf with are better too. I wonder if the data is accurate. If it is, I would love to see a deep dive into it to see if the comparisons are truly valid. It just doesn't make sense that the improved equipment doesn't translate into better scores.
[/quote]Simple really, attrition.

People leave the game (for whatever reason, money, death, lost intrest, etc....) and they take their handicaps (whatever they are, high and low alike) with them.

New people come in and are high handcaps because very few come in and are shooting single digits in their first year.

New equipment/better technology doesn't automatically translate to lowering a newcomers score.

Then you have those of us that didn't leave, and aren't new. You can split us into 2 groups. 1) Those that improve 2) those that don't.

What the numbers do NOT show are of those that left, what were their handicaps when they left, because we know what the handicaps are of those that are new, and we know the handicaps of those that are still playing.

To sum it up, when you have more people leaving with low handicaps, and not many coming in, but with high handcaps, and fewer of us improving every year vs those that don't (probably those that just play casual rounds with no emphasis on competiton or improvement), then it's perfectly viable to have better equipment capable of lowering scores... but with fewer low handicappers than before.

How much does your brain hurt now?

--kC

[MileHighClub]

[quote name='Imp' timestamp='1356715610' post='6129387']
[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356712474' post='6129101']
[quote name='SurfDuffer' timestamp='1354150973' post='5992543']
Golf was never supposed to be easy.
[/quote]

I also don't understand how the average score and handicap has not changed in the past twenty years. I am about 20 strokes better than I was twenty years ago and most of the people I play golf with are better too. I wonder if the data is accurate. If it is, I would love to see a deep dive into it to see if the comparisons are truly valid. It just doesn't make sense that the improved equipment doesn't translate into better scores.
[/quote]Simple really, attrition.

People leave the game (for whatever reason, money, death, lost intrest, etc....) and they take their handicaps (whatever they are, high and low alike) with them.

New people come in and are high handcaps because very few come in and are shooting single digits in their first year.

New equipment/better technology doesn't automatically translate to lowering a newcomers score.

Then you have those of us that didn't leave, and aren't new. You can split us into 2 groups. 1) Those that improve 2) those that don't.

What the numbers do NOT show are of those that left, what were their handicaps when they left, because we know what the handicaps are of those that are new, and we know the handicaps of those that are still playing.

To sum it up, when you have more people leaving with low handicaps, and not many coming in, but with high handcaps, and fewer of us improving every year vs those that don't (probably those that just play casual rounds with no emphasis on competiton or improvement), then it's perfectly viable to have better equipment capable of lowering scores... but with fewer low handicappers than before.

How much does your brain hurt now?

--kC
[/quote]

Many in the media like to bring up the "fact" that better equipment hasn't led to lower handicaps or lower scores. Has anyone done a study of actual golfers comparing the handicaps of those specific golfers today versus the handicaps of those same golfers twenty years ago? I would be astonished if someone who played twenty years ago is not playing better today.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356712474' post='6129101']
Most of us welcome the challenge, and that is what makes the game so great. [u][b] If it was too easy then I don't know if I would like it as much as I do. [/b][/u] I also don't understand how the average score and handicap has not changed in the past twenty years. I am about 20 strokes better than I was twenty years ago and most of the people I play golf with are better too. I wonder if the data is accurate. If it is, I would love to see a deep dive into it to see if the comparisons are truly valid. It just doesn't make sense that the improved equipment doesn't translate into better scores.

[/quote]

My whole life reflects that bold sentence. Starting at 40, I reached single digit inside of five years. That happen because I wanted to be good at the game and my lifestyle allowed me to put in the time. That doesn't make me special, if anything it just reflects my frame of mind and life situation. At the same time, I know many good guys that had different priorities, so golf was more about camaraderie then reaching single digit. They are complacent with 13-18 index. I don't fault them one bit because NOT ONE of them complains or says the game should be made easier for them. A man must know his limitations.

As for data, I doubt its accurate. IMO the advancement of technology has helped people. Its for sure helped me. Biggest noticeable different for me has been graphite shafts in my woods and the ball. But, when it comes to the average golfer, I don't believe he's able to determine exactly where those improved strokes are, or how many there are. Index is one way, but for that to noticeably drop, he must practice. The indexes of the friends I mention haven't changed much to speak of over years. I suspect technology provides an undetermined number of strokes based upon the golfers ability; and for average Joe golfer, they get eaten up through the 10 best of 20 scores, and those without indexes can't be measured, so shouldn't be considered.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1356714754' post='6129317']
"Suck at the game" has nothing to do with scratch or low index. Its a frame of mind, which for some reason, eludes some people. It means someone that stays at 18 handicap or never gets an index,etc.. because he's too lazy to put in the time, yet expects the golf world to design courses to meet his slow ship, suck at the game mentality, so he can feel better about himself.
[/quote]

Most would disagree.

[MtlJeff]

I just come into this thread now to look at pictures of the Glenmorangie in Pepper's avatar (as i drink my beginner's Glenlivet)

We haven't just agreed to disagree yet?

[Sean2]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1356736251' post='6131227']
I just come into this thread now to look at pictures of the Glenmorangie in Pepper's avatar (as i drink my beginner's Glenlivet)

We haven't just agreed to disagree yet?
[/quote]

I was thinking the same thing, and I don't even drink.

[mdgboxx]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1356736251' post='6131227']
I just come into this thread now to look at pictures of the Glenmorangie in Pepper's avatar (as i drink my beginner's Glenlivet)

We haven't just agreed to disagree yet?
[/quote]


WWWWAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTHHHHHHH?????????????????

No old fashion drunken bar room free-for-all????????????

I know!.......... Your just messing with me......... Wheeuuuww!

I don't drink, sometimes I miss the action. Yeahhh, I used to, but still......!

[KDMullins]

[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356716172' post='6129453']
Many in the media like to bring up the "fact" that better equipment hasn't led to lower handicaps or lower scores. Has anyone done a study of actual golfers comparing the handicaps of those specific golfers today versus the handicaps of those same golfers twenty years ago? I would be astonished if someone who played twenty years ago is not playing better today.
[/quote]

Astonished? Really? Most people I know don't play any better. The difficulty in golf courses has far outpaced any advancements in club technology for the amateur golfer.

[Sean2]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356746089' post='6131919']
[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356716172' post='6129453']
Many in the media like to bring up the "fact" that better equipment hasn't led to lower handicaps or lower scores. Has anyone done a study of actual golfers comparing the handicaps of those specific golfers today versus the handicaps of those same golfers twenty years ago? I would be astonished if someone who played twenty years ago is not playing better today.
[/quote]

Astonished? Really? Most people I know don't play any better. The difficulty in golf courses has far outpaced any advancements in club technology for the amateur golfer.
[/quote]

I think there is a lot of truth to this KD.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356747890' post='6132073']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356746089' post='6131919']
[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356716172' post='6129453']
Many in the media like to bring up the "fact" that better equipment hasn't led to lower handicaps or lower scores. Has anyone done a study of actual golfers comparing the handicaps of those specific golfers today versus the handicaps of those same golfers twenty years ago? I would be astonished if someone who played twenty years ago is not playing better today.
[/quote]

Astonished? Really? Most people I know don't play any better. The difficulty in golf courses has far outpaced any advancements in club technology for the amateur golfer.
[/quote]

I think there is a lot of truth to this KD.
[/quote]

I think the idea I was trying to convey is true, but upon re-reading my post, I think it would be more accurate to say that most people I know don't score any better. And while I do think the difficulty in new courses has contributed to that fact, I also think most guys short games suck just as bad now as they did back then!

[Sean2]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356748075' post='6132091']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1356747890' post='6132073']
[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1356746089' post='6131919']
[quote name='MileHighClub' timestamp='1356716172' post='6129453']
Many in the media like to bring up the "fact" that better equipment hasn't led to lower handicaps or lower scores. Has anyone done a study of actual golfers comparing the handicaps of those specific golfers today versus the handicaps of those same golfers twenty years ago? I would be astonished if someone who played twenty years ago is not playing better today.
[/quote]

Astonished? Really? Most people I know don't play any better. The difficulty in golf courses has far outpaced any advancements in club technology for the amateur golfer.
[/quote]

I think there is a lot of truth to this KD.
[/quote]

I think the idea I was trying to convey is true, but upon re-reading my post, I think it would be more accurate to say that most people I know don't score any better. And while I do think the difficulty in new courses has contributed to that fact, I also think most guys short games suck just as bad now as they did back then!
[/quote]

Ha ha! Too true, no doubt. :-)

[SurfDuffer]

Actually it was other people who made those points.

[SurfDuffer]

There really are two camps on this debate:

On one side you have those who want to blame other people for their shortcomings in life. These are the golf courses are too hard folks. These folks look to blame others rather than look inside themselves. These folks won't blame themselves for not being able to hit the golf ball across a hazard, they blame the designer for putting the hazard there in the first place.

On the other side you have the folks who take on responsibility and challenge head on with a no excuses approach. For these folks it is the game of golf that is difficult. These folks know that the playing field and the person who designed it are not at fault for their play. These folks take what's put in front of them and do the best they can to overcome any challenge in front of them.

It is really a stark difference in personality types. One of the things I love about this game is how it totally exposes everyone's personalities. On the course you can measure someone up almost perfectly in an 18 hole round. This thread is just another example of this.

[Sean2]

You and Pepper still don't get it. You put things in black and white, all or nothing. Accusing those of us who want the game to be me a bit more fun for the average golfer basically of being lazy and shiftless (including Phil Mickelson, Luke Donald, etc).

You make golf to be some kind of war, instead of a GAME. You know game? Fun?

Apparently one isn't supposed to have fun while playing this game...at least the average golfer isn't. He is supposed to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous misfortune.

Yes, there is a stark difference in personality types. There are those of us who have a bit of empathy and compassion for our fellow golfers (who love this game every bit as you do...even though you say "they suck").