Can Hogan's Swing be Duplicated?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357842286' post='6204391']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357840290' post='6204171']
And one more to get on iTeach's good side:

[attachment=1484157:inigoMeme1.jpg]
[/quote]

cp & cf are not characterized by alignments or plane shifts, or any other geometrical consideration, they are two distinct physical ways to move the club. In track & field terms, cp is how a hammer thrower heaves the weight and cf is how a javelin thrower chucks the spear. The hammer thrower spins while pulling against the weight and then lets go. The javelin guy tosses the spear by throwing the pressure in his right hand at an aiming point.

To distinguish a cfer from a cper, observe whether his arms/hands are extending through impact and on through to the finish as opposed to fighting to keep his hands close to his rotating core.
[/quote]

I thought that was the definition but I believe iteach and dana said that it was not.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1357842793' post='6204461']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357842286' post='6204391']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357840290' post='6204171']
And one more to get on iTeach's good side:

[attachment=1484157:inigoMeme1.jpg]
[/quote]

cp & cf are not characterized by alignments or plane shifts, or any other geometrical consideration, they are two distinct physical ways to move the club. In track & field terms, cp is how a hammer thrower heaves the weight and cf is how a javelin thrower chucks the spear. The hammer thrower spins while pulling against the weight and then lets go. The javelin guy tosses the spear by throwing the pressure in his right hand at an aiming point.

To distinguish a cfer from a cper, observe whether his arms/hands are extending through impact and on through to the finish as opposed to fighting to keep his hands close to his rotating core.
[/quote]

I thought that was the definition but I believe iteach and dana said that it was not.
[/quote]

Here's a brief, but complete description of a Mac O'Grady lesson on cp. Back when, tour great Gene Littler went into a tailspin and ended up going to Mac. He came driving up to Mac's and Mac came out with 2 magnums of champagne. He sat Littler down in a large executive type revolving chair, put a bottle in each of his hands with his arms extended, and spun the chair, telling him to pull the bottles in toward his body. When the chair had come to rest, a dazed Littler stumbled out of the chair and the lesson was over.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357844100' post='6204621']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1357842793' post='6204461']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357842286' post='6204391']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357840290' post='6204171']
And one more to get on iTeach's good side:

[attachment=1484157:inigoMeme1.jpg]
[/quote]

cp & cf are not characterized by alignments or plane shifts, or any other geometrical consideration, they are two distinct physical ways to move the club. In track & field terms, cp is how a hammer thrower heaves the weight and cf is how a javelin thrower chucks the spear. The hammer thrower spins while pulling against the weight and then lets go. The javelin guy tosses the spear by throwing the pressure in his right hand at an aiming point.

To distinguish a cfer from a cper, observe whether his arms/hands are extending through impact and on through to the finish as opposed to fighting to keep his hands close to his rotating core.
[/quote]

I thought that was the definition but I believe iteach and dana said that it was not.
[/quote]

Here's a brief, but complete description of a Mac O'Grady lesson on cp. Back when, tour great Gene Littler went into a tailspin and ended up going to Mac. He came driving up to Mac's and Mac came out with 2 magnums of champagne. He sat Littler down in a large executive type revolving chair, put a bottle in each of his hands with his arms extended, and spun the chair, telling him to pull the bottles in toward his body. When the chair had come to rest, a dazed Littler stumbled out of the chair and the lesson was over.
[/quote]

sounds about right. And then he told us that he was going to send us his book for a very small fee because we were already part the group.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357844755' post='6204685']
sounds about right. And then he told us that he was going to send us his book for a very small fee because we were already part the group.
[/quote]

You've been to one of the $2500 Mac seminars? If so, did he serve champagne?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357845058' post='6204707']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357844755' post='6204685']
sounds about right. And then he told us that he was going to send us his book for a very small fee because we were already part the group.
[/quote]

You've been to one of the $2500 Mac seminars? If so, did he serve champagne?
[/quote]

He did!

[tembolo1284]

So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357767724' post='6199071']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357765956' post='6198911']
where can I get my clubs fixed to get it 3 degrees open.

Problem is I don't sole the club...I take my grip all in the air...so how does that work?
[/quote]

Easy - just grip it with the face open.
[/quote]

how can one eyeball '3 degrees open' ?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855130' post='6205755']
So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?
[/quote]

Seems to be a common complaint among rotators from reading the one plane forums, and it's probably got to do with matching up rotational speed with a 45" shaft.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357857869' post='6206033']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357767724' post='6199071']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357765956' post='6198911']
where can I get my clubs fixed to get it 3 degrees open.

Problem is I don't sole the club...I take my grip all in the air...so how does that work?
[/quote]

Easy - just grip it with the face open.
[/quote]

how can one eyeball '3 degrees open' ?
[/quote]

Forget the 3 degs, just open it up a little, and then a little more, etc, til you start hitting push fades. This is assuming you're coming into it from the inside.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855085' post='6205749']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357845058' post='6204707']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357844755' post='6204685']
sounds about right. And then he told us that he was going to send us his book for a very small fee because we were already part the group.
[/quote]

You've been to one of the $2500 Mac seminars? If so, did he serve champagne?
[/quote]

He did!
[/quote]

So you're sworn to secrecy about MORAD under penalty of being kicked out of the group?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357859970' post='6206257']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855085' post='6205749']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357845058' post='6204707']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357844755' post='6204685']
sounds about right. And then he told us that he was going to send us his book for a very small fee because we were already part the group.
[/quote]

You've been to one of the $2500 Mac seminars? If so, did he serve champagne?
[/quote]

He did!
[/quote]

So you're sworn to secrecy about MORAD under penalty of being kicked out of the group?
[/quote]

I guess? Didn't agree with everything so no biggie!

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357858685' post='6206133']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357857869' post='6206033']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357767724' post='6199071']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357765956' post='6198911']
where can I get my clubs fixed to get it 3 degrees open.

Problem is I don't sole the club...I take my grip all in the air...so how does that work?
[/quote]

Easy - just grip it with the face open.
[/quote]

how can one eyeball '3 degrees open' ?
[/quote]

Forget the 3 degs, just open it up a little, and then a little more, etc, til you start hitting push fades. This is assuming you're coming into it from the inside.
[/quote]

Haha...I was only pullin' your leg sir.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357858216' post='6206077']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855130' post='6205755']
So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?
[/quote]

Seems to be a common complaint among rotators from reading the one plane forums, and it's probably got to do with matching up rotational speed with a 45" shaft.
[/quote]

This is why Geoff Jones is so keen on the idea of arm synchronization in the backswing. Players with even just a few frames (when filmed at 30 fps) of arm run-on will almost always be perpetual faders with this kind of swing. When the arms run-on a lot, most players will pivot stall to allow the arms to catch up in the downswing or they throw the arms down first. If they don't throw and try to keep rotating per the OPS prescription - wipey, fadey, slicey! But when you get synched up, you can rotate as hard as you want. The only other instructor I ever met that even mentioned synch (and only indirectly) was O'grady. This is one of the goals of Geoff's version of "9 to 3" and why many players achieve a never before experienced level of ball compression when they get it down. It may also perhaps explain why Christo employs a different driver swing as it's much more common to have run-on with the driver in a sub-conscious search for more distance.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1357874469' post='6207665']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357858216' post='6206077']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855130' post='6205755']
So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?
[/quote]

Seems to be a common complaint among rotators from reading the one plane forums, and it's probably got to do with matching up rotational speed with a 45" shaft.
[/quote]

This is why Geoff Jones is so keen on the idea of arm synchronization in the backswing. Players with even just a few frames (when filmed at 30 fps) of arm run-on will almost always be perpetual faders with this kind of swing. When the arms run-on a lot, most players will pivot stall to allow the arms to catch up in the downswing or they throw the arms down first. If they don't throw and try to keep rotating per the OPS prescription - wipey, fadey, slicey! But when you get synched up, you can rotate as hard as you want. The only other instructor I ever met that even mentioned synch (and only indirectly) was O'grady. This is one of the goals of Geoff's version of "9 to 3" and why many players achieve a never before experienced level of ball compression when they get it down. It may also perhaps explain why Christo employs a different driver swing as it's much more common to have run-on with the driver in a sub-conscious search for more distance.
[/quote]

Excellent post hoganfan!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1357874469' post='6207665']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357858216' post='6206077']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855130' post='6205755']
So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?
[/quote]

Seems to be a common complaint among rotators from reading the one plane forums, and it's probably got to do with matching up rotational speed with a 45" shaft.
[/quote]

This is why Geoff Jones is so keen on the idea of arm synchronization in the backswing. Players with even just a few frames (when filmed at 30 fps) of arm run-on will almost always be perpetual faders with this kind of swing. When the arms run-on a lot, most players will pivot stall to allow the arms to catch up in the downswing or they throw the arms down first. If they don't throw and try to keep rotating per the OPS prescription - wipey, fadey, slicey! But when you get synched up, you can rotate as hard as you want. The only other instructor I ever met that even mentioned synch (and only indirectly) was O'grady. This is one of the goals of Geoff's version of "9 to 3" and why many players achieve a never before experienced level of ball compression when they get it down. It may also perhaps explain why Christo employs a different driver swing as it's much more common to have run-on with the driver in a sub-conscious search for more distance.
[/quote]

So that's the purpose of 9-2-3, I was wondering why the SF guys don't seem to have that problem!

[tembolo1284]

So hogan is CF with a CP looking action. How cool is that?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357928245' post='6210615']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1357874469' post='6207665']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357858216' post='6206077']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855130' post='6205755']
So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?
[/quote]

Seems to be a common complaint among rotators from reading the one plane forums, and it's probably got to do with matching up rotational speed with a 45" shaft.
[/quote]

This is why Geoff Jones is so keen on the idea of arm synchronization in the backswing. Players with even just a few frames (when filmed at 30 fps) of arm run-on will almost always be perpetual faders with this kind of swing. When the arms run-on a lot, most players will pivot stall to allow the arms to catch up in the downswing or they throw the arms down first. If they don't throw and try to keep rotating per the OPS prescription - wipey, fadey, slicey! But when you get synched up, you can rotate as hard as you want. The only other instructor I ever met that even mentioned synch (and only indirectly) was O'grady. This is one of the goals of Geoff's version of "9 to 3" and why many players achieve a never before experienced level of ball compression when they get it down. It may also perhaps explain why Christo employs a different driver swing as it's much more common to have run-on with the driver in a sub-conscious search for more distance.
[/quote]

So that's the purpose of 9-2-3, I was wondering why the SF guys don't seem to have that problem!
[/quote]

It's one of a few purposes. Two of the other important ones being (in TGM terms), maintaining the right wrist flying wedge and not running out of right arm (what he means when he uses the phrase "maintaining leverage"). And of course a connected left arm/side and pivot powered downswing. It's why he says once you get this little swing down, it's not difficult to stretch it out a bit into a full swing. The importance isn't in "9 to 3," it's in executing the details of how to make a proper 9 to 3. Lot's of instructors have used 9 to 3, or L to L for example. A minority, IMO emphasize the same details as Geoff. Some emphasize things that are very counter to what he does (such as in L to L with a full roll and recock by 3).

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357938761' post='6211555']
So hogan is CF with a CP looking action. How cool is that?
[/quote]

It would explain why he had such a hooking problem, what with throwing his hands at the target and pulling up and back with the left shoulder. What did Mac say Hogan was doing?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1357939600' post='6211631']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357928245' post='6210615']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1357874469' post='6207665']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357858216' post='6206077']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357855130' post='6205755']
So why you think christo can't open himself up and hit it with more rotation? Why does he have to throw to compress it?
[/quote]

Seems to be a common complaint among rotators from reading the one plane forums, and it's probably got to do with matching up rotational speed with a 45" shaft.
[/quote]

This is why Geoff Jones is so keen on the idea of arm synchronization in the backswing. Players with even just a few frames (when filmed at 30 fps) of arm run-on will almost always be perpetual faders with this kind of swing. When the arms run-on a lot, most players will pivot stall to allow the arms to catch up in the downswing or they throw the arms down first. If they don't throw and try to keep rotating per the OPS prescription - wipey, fadey, slicey! But when you get synched up, you can rotate as hard as you want. The only other instructor I ever met that even mentioned synch (and only indirectly) was O'grady. This is one of the goals of Geoff's version of "9 to 3" and why many players achieve a never before experienced level of ball compression when they get it down. It may also perhaps explain why Christo employs a different driver swing as it's much more common to have run-on with the driver in a sub-conscious search for more distance.
[/quote]

So that's the purpose of 9-2-3, I was wondering why the SF guys don't seem to have that problem!
[/quote]

It's one of a few purposes. Two of the other important ones being (in TGM terms), maintaining the right wrist flying wedge and not running out of right arm (what he means when he uses the phrase "maintaining leverage"). And of course a connected left arm/side and pivot powered downswing. It's why he says once you get this little swing down, it's not difficult to stretch it out a bit into a full swing. The importance isn't in "9 to 3," it's in executing the details of how to make a proper 9 to 3. Lot's of instructors have used 9 to 3, or L to L for example. A minority, IMO emphasize the same details as Geoff. Some emphasize things that are very counter to what he does (such as in L to L with a full roll and recock by 3).
[/quote]

Isn't the SF downswing totally pivot powered with no arm effort? I was a pitcher and there is no way I could subdue my arms like that without wearing a SwingShirt!

[tylerdurden]

MJ, IMO, no, the SF swing isn't totally pivot powered with no arm effort. It's pivot driven for sure, and the arms are reacting for sure. But you don't take the arm action out of it, they just react instead of dominating if that makes sense. And like HF said, they react in a way that's synced up with the pivot. At least that's how it feels to me at this point.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1357996372' post='6214577']
MJ, IMO, no, the SF swing isn't totally pivot powered with no arm effort. It's pivot driven for sure, and the arms are reacting for sure. But you don't take the arm action out of it, they just react instead of dominating if that makes sense. And like HF said, they react in a way that's synced up with the pivot. At least that's how it feels to me at this point.
[/quote]

Then you're not throwing the hands down the line or to the left independently, but just adding arm effort to the direction the pivot sends them?

[Titleist-Golfer]

For modern clubs and balls, you'd do better trying to copy Adam Scott's swing - purist in golf. Or Tiger's 2000-2001 swing (same as AS now).

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Titleist-Golfer' timestamp='1358015349' post='6215755']
For modern clubs and balls, you'd do better trying to copy Adam Scott's swing - purist in golf. Or Tiger's 2000-2001 swing (same as AS now).
[/quote]
Adam Scott's swing has never been the same or even all that close to Tiger's swing, even in 2001. No clue why people continually say this

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Titleist-Golfer' timestamp='1358015349' post='6215755']
For modern clubs and balls, you'd do better trying to copy Adam Scott's swing - purist in golf. Or Tiger's 2000-2001 swing (same as AS now).
[/quote]

Point us to an Adam Scott forum where we can learn and discuss his swing method.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358015080' post='6215737']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1357996372' post='6214577']
MJ, IMO, no, the SF swing isn't totally pivot powered with no arm effort. It's pivot driven for sure, and the arms are reacting for sure. But you don't take the arm action out of it, they just react instead of dominating if that makes sense. And like HF said, they react in a way that's synced up with the pivot. At least that's how it feels to me at this point.
[/quote]

Then you're not throwing the hands down the line or to the left independently, but just adding arm effort to the direction the pivot sends them?
[/quote]

I guess. We didn't about that and I don;t think about hand path at all really

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357947693' post='6212229']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357938761' post='6211555']
So hogan is CF with a CP looking action. How cool is that?
[/quote]

It would explain why he had such a hooking problem, what with throwing his hands at the target and pulling up and back with the left shoulder. What did Mac say Hogan was doing?
[/quote]

Here's another take on Hogan's release. CP by supination.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=_XSJtdletro&nomobile=1[/media]

[AlexCzervic]

The CP/CF vid was decent.

I'll throw this out there regarding arm 'power' in Hogan's swing. There is none, your arms and hands are stuck between the massive torque of the pivot and the considerable physics of a golf club. A varying amout of reaction effort is required to maintain structure and the sensations are unmistakeable and significant for full power swings. Done properly it feels like your giving it all you have when your hands are low and accomplishing very little. However, by definition it is not arm power and it is not deliberate.

I repeat, at full power the feelings are substantial and unmistakeable. You will also feel it the next day or two.

Carry on,

AC

Edit: If the SF swings I have seen are representitive of his philosophy you will not have the same sensations as Hogan in a SF swing.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358113916' post='6221233']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1357947693' post='6212229']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357938761' post='6211555']
So hogan is CF with a CP looking action. How cool is that?
[/quote]

It would explain why he had such a hooking problem, what with throwing his hands at the target and pulling up and back with the left shoulder. What did Mac say Hogan was doing?
[/quote]

Here's another take on Hogan's release. CP by supination.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&client=mv-google&v=_XSJtdletro&nomobile=1[/media]
[/quote]

I have several problems with what he says, especially concerning cf. For example, he say that in cf, "the club head is sort of leading the handle". Not in a properly executed cf. The whole club is thrown, not just the club head. You can execute a late snap release with either cp or cf, and you can release too soon with either. Also, you can supinate with either of the two physics types.

[ej002]

If Hogan was CF, how is it that his arms are so tight to his torso at impact? If he was throwing them out or down the line, wouldn't there be more space? His left arm is very connected at impact, isn't that poster boy CP stuff? At impact he is pretty open and I would assume we would see seperation by then. Anyone?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358185811' post='6226081']
If Hogan was CF, how is it that his arms are so tight to his torso at impact? If he was throwing them out or down the line, wouldn't there be more space? His left arm is very connected at impact, isn't that poster boy CP stuff? At impact he is pretty open and I would assume we would see seperation by then. Anyone?
[/quote]

His left arm isn't connected when he starts the throw toward the target, but only after snapping the triangle shut with the robust shoulder turn. See it here by stopping the video at the first frame at :37(gotta be quick)- observe the huge gap between the left arm and body. In the next few frames see how emphatically he extends the right arm to an upright finish. If he stalled the pivot, his hands would move only just inside the target line instead of being deflected farther left, and he would look like any other hand thrower chasing down the line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCR09QQ5ls4