Can Hogan's Swing be Duplicated?

[dairic]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358185811' post='6226081']
If Hogan was CF, how is it that his arms are so tight to his torso at impact? If he was throwing them out or down the line, wouldn't there be more space? His left arm is very connected at impact, isn't that poster boy CP stuff? At impact he is pretty open and I would assume we would see seperation by then. Anyone?
[/quote]

It seems that so far there's multiple definitions of CP and CF, so varying perspectives could be considered valid depending on which definition is accepted as truth. The definition I like (but I know nothing) is the one in the video, CP pulls against centrifugal force. Having arms firmly connected to torso would seem to be part of pulling againstcentrifugal force, and left shoulder pull post impact would also fit this definition.

I also think that he had the intention of hitting to right field and a roll of the club face right up to the finish. Which is why I haven't yet discarded that CP by supination example in the video. He battled a hook so It doesn't seem to make sense that he simply pulled the handle and cut accross the ball to hit a fade. His fundamental swing motion without compensation has to create the condition of face closed relative to path at impact.

[ej002]

MJ - Doesn't he HAVE to have that gap there or else he would be stuck?

I don't think that you can base a conclusion on that gap. BTW there is a thread on that "disconnection" from years back. I am not saying he didn't feel like his hands were going at the ball, but the way the body moves, I don't agree with you based on the definition you are using of CF, because by the time he releases he is connected. Does Dans and your definition go together?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358188949' post='6226401']

It seems that so far there's multiple definitions of CP and CF, so varying perspectives could be considered valid depending on which definition is accepted as truth. The definition I like (but I know nothing) is the one in the video, CP pulls against centrifugal force. Having arms firmly connected to torso would seem to be part of pulling againstcentrifugal force, and left shoulder pull post impact would also fit this definition.

I also think that he had the intention of hitting to right field and a roll of the club face right up to the finish. Which is why I haven't yet discarded that CP by supination example in the video. He battled a hook so It doesn't seem to make sense that he simply pulled the handle and cut accross the ball to hit a fade. His fundamental swing motion without compensation has to create the condition of face closed relative to path at impact.
[/quote]

Since Mac coined the terms cp and cf, some will just have to wait for the book - LOL

As for swinging out to right field, how do you explain that he said he threw toward the target in detail on pg 100 of 5L AND demoed that in the Coleman video???

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358190161' post='6226505']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358188949' post='6226401']
It seems that so far there's multiple definitions of CP and CF, so varying perspectives could be considered valid depending on which definition is accepted as truth. The definition I like (but I know nothing) is the one in the video, CP pulls against centrifugal force. Having arms firmly connected to torso would seem to be part of pulling againstcentrifugal force, and left shoulder pull post impact would also fit this definition.

I also think that he had the intention of hitting to right field and a roll of the club face right up to the finish. Which is why I haven't yet discarded that CP by supination example in the video. He battled a hook so It doesn't seem to make sense that he simply pulled the handle and cut accross the ball to hit a fade. His fundamental swing motion without compensation has to create the condition of face closed relative to path at impact.
[/quote]

Since Mac coined the terms cp and cf, some will just have to wait for the book - LOL

As for swinging out to right field, how do you explain that he said he threw toward the target in detail on pg 100 of 5L AND demoed that in the Coleman video???
[/quote]

Not to be a salami but I think there's a higher chance of MizunoJoe and I battling it down the stretch of a US Open on Sunday afternoon than Mac releasing any book.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358188986' post='6226403']
MJ - Doesn't he HAVE to have that gap there or else he would be stuck?

I don't think that you can base a conclusion on that gap. BTW there is a thread on that "disconnection" from years back. I am not saying he didn't feel like his hands were going at the ball, but the way the body moves, I don't agree with you based on the definition you are using of CF, because by the time he releases he is connected. Does Dans and your definition go together?
[/quote]

Go to Youtube and look at Snead cp swings - he appears to keep his left arm connected from start to finish. But even if he did have that gap, it doesn't mean he couldn't execute cp physics.

Look again at the Hogan video, at RELEASE his left arm is off the chest and the triangle is wide open. I don't know who Dan is or what his def is, but connectedness does not characterize cp, even though most cpers have it. You can pull the handle all the way to the finish while completely disconnected, although the result might not be pretty!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358190395' post='6226521']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358190161' post='6226505']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358188949' post='6226401']
It seems that so far there's multiple definitions of CP and CF, so varying perspectives could be considered valid depending on which definition is accepted as truth. The definition I like (but I know nothing) is the one in the video, CP pulls against centrifugal force. Having arms firmly connected to torso would seem to be part of pulling againstcentrifugal force, and left shoulder pull post impact would also fit this definition.

I also think that he had the intention of hitting to right field and a roll of the club face right up to the finish. Which is why I haven't yet discarded that CP by supination example in the video. He battled a hook so It doesn't seem to make sense that he simply pulled the handle and cut accross the ball to hit a fade. His fundamental swing motion without compensation has to create the condition of face closed relative to path at impact.
[/quote]

Since Mac coined the terms cp and cf, some will just have to wait for the book - LOL

As for swinging out to right field, how do you explain that he said he threw toward the target in detail on pg 100 of 5L AND demoed that in the Coleman video???
[/quote]

Not to be a salami but I think there's a higher chance of MizunoJoe and I battling it down the stretch of a US Open on Sunday afternoon than Mac releasing any book.
[/quote]

HAHA - if the course were all dogleg lefts, you'd win by a handful!

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358185811' post='6226081']
If Hogan was CF, how is it that his arms are so tight to his torso at impact? If he was throwing them out or down the line, wouldn't there be more space? His left arm is very connected at impact, isn't that poster boy CP stuff? At impact he is pretty open and I would assume we would see seperation by then. Anyone?
[/quote]

I don't know/care about CF vs CP, BUT, I don't think Hogan had to pull his arms close to his body during his downswing. I think it was an automatic reaction caused by the specifics of his pivot and arm swing.

[dairic]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358190161' post='6226505']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358188949' post='6226401']
It seems that so far there's multiple definitions of CP and CF, so varying perspectives could be considered valid depending on which definition is accepted as truth. The definition I like (but I know nothing) is the one in the video, CP pulls against centrifugal force. Having arms firmly connected to torso would seem to be part of pulling againstcentrifugal force, and left shoulder pull post impact would also fit this definition.

I also think that he had the intention of hitting to right field and a roll of the club face right up to the finish. Which is why I haven't yet discarded that CP by supination example in the video. He battled a hook so It doesn't seem to make sense that he simply pulled the handle and cut accross the ball to hit a fade. His fundamental swing motion without compensation has to create the condition of face closed relative to path at impact.
[/quote]

Since Mac coined the terms cp and cf, some will just have to wait for the book - LOL

As for swinging out to right field, how do you explain that he said he threw toward the target in detail on pg 100 of 5L AND demoed that in the Coleman video???
[/quote]

I don't remember the exact page number, but in 5L he describes that after the "free ride down" the golfer is in a position to hit the ball from the "inside-out". Also, when his left arm is parallel to the ground in the down swing it is pointed to the right of his stance line which seems to indicate that he's setting himself up for a hit from the inside. He has a lot of spine angle at impact which to me says that he's coming from the inside and will cause his arms to finish high in the follow through which he did. All of this matches the 5L diagram I posted a couple days ago which shows the base line shifted to the "right" and "up".

[ej002]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358190873' post='6226591']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358188986' post='6226403']
MJ - Doesn't he HAVE to have that gap there or else he would be stuck?

I don't think that you can base a conclusion on that gap. BTW there is a thread on that "disconnection" from years back. I am not saying he didn't feel like his hands were going at the ball, but the way the body moves, I don't agree with you based on the definition you are using of CF, because by the time he releases he is connected. Does Dans and your definition go together?
[/quote]

Go to Youtube and look at Snead cp swings - he appears to keep his left arm connected from start to finish. But even if he did have that gap, i[b]t doesn't mean he couldn't execute cp physics.[/b]

Look again at the Hogan video, at RELEASE his left arm is off the chest and the triangle is wide open. I don't know who Dan is or what his def is, but connectedness does not characterize cp, even though most cpers have it. You can pull the handle all the way to the finish while completely disconnected, although the result might not be pretty!
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBmn8HCCQo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBmn8HCCQo[/url]

35 sec mark. The gap is there. And you are making my point - the gap is irrelevant. I know connectedness is not the end all be all, but it is a clue as to what is going on. I think we might be arguing semantics here.


Dan didn't say connecteness (dan is iteach), I am just wondering if his P5.5 view has anything to do what you are saying. It might go together somewhat, but I think he is looking at other stuff. Just wondering what your thoughts were on that.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358192260' post='6226705']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358190161' post='6226505']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358188949' post='6226401']
It seems that so far there's multiple definitions of CP and CF, so varying perspectives could be considered valid depending on which definition is accepted as truth. The definition I like (but I know nothing) is the one in the video, CP pulls against centrifugal force. Having arms firmly connected to torso would seem to be part of pulling againstcentrifugal force, and left shoulder pull post impact would also fit this definition.

I also think that he had the intention of hitting to right field and a roll of the club face right up to the finish. Which is why I haven't yet discarded that CP by supination example in the video. He battled a hook so It doesn't seem to make sense that he simply pulled the handle and cut accross the ball to hit a fade. His fundamental swing motion without compensation has to create the condition of face closed relative to path at impact.
[/quote]

Since Mac coined the terms cp and cf, some will just have to wait for the book - LOL

As for swinging out to right field, how do you explain that he said he threw toward the target in detail on pg 100 of 5L AND demoed that in the Coleman video???
[/quote]

I don't remember the exact page number, but in 5L he describes that after the "free ride down" the golfer is in a position to hit the ball from the "inside-out". Also, when his left arm is parallel to the ground in the down swing it is pointed to the right of his stance line which seems to indicate that he's setting himself up for a hit from the inside. He has a lot of spine angle at impact which to me says that he's coming from the inside and will cause his arms to finish high in the follow through which he did. All of this matches the 5L diagram I posted a couple days ago which shows the base line shifted to the "right" and "up".
[/quote]

Look at the :37 frame with the disconnected left arm pointing almost straight down at release point and the blurred club head approaching from inside as the hands prepare to drive forward, not toward the right. The hands are transported down and out to the release point by the pivot.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358194101' post='6226879']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358190873' post='6226591']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358188986' post='6226403']
MJ - Doesn't he HAVE to have that gap there or else he would be stuck?

I don't think that you can base a conclusion on that gap. BTW there is a thread on that "disconnection" from years back. I am not saying he didn't feel like his hands were going at the ball, but the way the body moves, I don't agree with you based on the definition you are using of CF, because by the time he releases he is connected. Does Dans and your definition go together?
[/quote]

Go to Youtube and look at Snead cp swings - he appears to keep his left arm connected from start to finish. But even if he did have that gap, i[b]t doesn't mean he couldn't execute cp physics.[/b]

Look again at the Hogan video, at RELEASE his left arm is off the chest and the triangle is wide open. I don't know who Dan is or what his def is, but connectedness does not characterize cp, even though most cpers have it. You can pull the handle all the way to the finish while completely disconnected, although the result might not be pretty!
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBmn8HCCQo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxBmn8HCCQo[/url]

35 sec mark. The gap is there. And you are making my point - the gap is irrelevant. I know connectedness is not the end all be all, but it is a clue as to what is going on. I think we might be arguing semantics here.


Dan didn't say connecteness (dan is iteach), I am just wondering if his P5.5 view has anything to do what you are saying. It might go together somewhat, but I think he is looking at other stuff. Just wondering what your thoughts were on that.
[/quote]

It took several tries, but, yes the gap is there! Sorry, I don't know what the "p5.5 view" is.

[ej002]

I think this thread is perfect for why CP and CF are stupid names. Iteach is talking about shifting plane lines. MJ is talking about releases.

[tembolo1284]

Just terms ej...once we agree on terms we can call them boom and bang if we want.

I prefer bacon and sausage myself.

[ej002]

Well, its all interesting b/c Snead right arm straightens way before Hogan's does and everyone is calling Snead a "cp" guy but noone is calling Hogan a cp guy. IMO they both bring their arms close to the body through impact. After that, I couldn't care less what happens, the ball is gone.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358195295' post='6227047']
I think this thread is perfect for why CP and CF are stupid names. Iteach is talking about shifting plane lines. MJ is talking about releases.
[/quote]

I hope you weren't one of the "inner circle" before this post, because you aren't now! LOL

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358196685' post='6227237']
Well, its all interesting b/c Snead right arm straightens way before Hogan's does and everyone is calling Snead a "cp" guy but noone is calling Hogan a cp guy. IMO they both bring their arms close to the body through impact. After that, I couldn't care less what happens, the ball is gone.
[/quote]

Well we know that Snead is Mac's cp model, but what does he say about Hogan? We'll just have to wait for the book, because tembolo isn't going to throw away his $2500 membership fee into the inner circle!

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358198103' post='6227385']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358196685' post='6227237']
Well, its all interesting b/c Snead right arm straightens way before Hogan's does and everyone is calling Snead a "cp" guy but noone is calling Hogan a cp guy. IMO they both bring their arms close to the body through impact. After that, I couldn't care less what happens, the ball is gone.
[/quote]

Well we know that Snead is Mac's cp model, but what does he say about Hogan? We'll just have to wait for the book, because tembolo isn't going to throw away his $2500 membership fee into the inner circle!
[/quote]

I remember he said the morad model is like 80% snead and 20% hogan...he liked snead's action more.

But I never got that since snead def hits some pulls. Not so for hogan. What can you do.

I still can't fade the ball weeeeeeeeeeeee.

Where's christo..it is HIS thread after all ain't it?

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358198857' post='6227457']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358198103' post='6227385']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358196685' post='6227237']
Well, its all interesting b/c Snead right arm straightens way before Hogan's does and everyone is calling Snead a "cp" guy but noone is calling Hogan a cp guy. IMO they both bring their arms close to the body through impact. After that, I couldn't care less what happens, the ball is gone.
[/quote]

Well we know that Snead is Mac's cp model, but what does he say about Hogan? We'll just have to wait for the book, because tembolo isn't going to throw away his $2500 membership fee into the inner circle!
[/quote]

I remember he said the morad model is like 80% snead and 20% hogan...he liked snead's action more.

But I never got that since snead def hits some pulls. Not so for hogan. What can you do.

I still can't fade the ball weeeeeeeeeeeee.

Where's christo..it is HIS thread after all ain't it?
[/quote]

We didn't hear from him I don't think since the thread was moved to Hogan's Heroes. Could be he doesn't know it's over here now.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358198857' post='6227457']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358198103' post='6227385']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358196685' post='6227237']
Well, its all interesting b/c Snead right arm straightens way before Hogan's does and everyone is calling Snead a "cp" guy but noone is calling Hogan a cp guy. IMO they both bring their arms close to the body through impact. After that, I couldn't care less what happens, the ball is gone.
[/quote]

Well we know that Snead is Mac's cp model, but what does he say about Hogan? We'll just have to wait for the book, because tembolo isn't going to throw away his $2500 membership fee into the inner circle!
[/quote]

I remember he said the morad model is like 80% snead and 20% hogan...he liked snead's action more.

But I never got that since snead def hits some pulls. Not so for hogan. What can you do.

I still can't fade the ball weeeeeeeeeeeee.

Where's christo..it is HIS thread after all ain't it?
[/quote]

C'mon tembo, we already knew that 80/20 stuff, and as for christo's thread, it's been so long since he posted, the statute of limitations for hijacking has kicked in.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358199364' post='6227513']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358198857' post='6227457']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1358198103' post='6227385']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358196685' post='6227237']
Well, its all interesting b/c Snead right arm straightens way before Hogan's does and everyone is calling Snead a "cp" guy but noone is calling Hogan a cp guy. IMO they both bring their arms close to the body through impact. After that, I couldn't care less what happens, the ball is gone.
[/quote]

Well we know that Snead is Mac's cp model, but what does he say about Hogan? We'll just have to wait for the book, because tembolo isn't going to throw away his $2500 membership fee into the inner circle!
[/quote]

I remember he said the morad model is like 80% snead and 20% hogan...he liked snead's action more.

But I never got that since snead def hits some pulls. Not so for hogan. What can you do.

I still can't fade the ball weeeeeeeeeeeee.

Where's christo..it is HIS thread after all ain't it?
[/quote]

C'mon tembo, we already knew that 80/20 stuff, and as for christo's thread, it's been so long since he posted, the statute of limitations for hijacking has kicked in.
[/quote]

mizunoJoe! You gonna get me castrated at this point. Mac knows where I live!

[ej002]

maybe he will write you an email and call you a blood sucker or something cool like that. Come on! Spill.

[MizunoJoe]

This brings to mind an interesting question - how would Mac know who is violating the inner circle rules, unless he has moles on the golf forums who have cyber-tracking abilities?

[tylerdurden]

Forget all this cf cp stuff. What about the [i]1 Swing Key??[/i]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON31Zpuo6Ik"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON31Zpuo6Ik[/url]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1358205038' post='6228195']
Forget all this cf cp stuff. What about the [i]1 Swing Key??[/i]

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON31Zpuo6Ik"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON31Zpuo6Ik[/url]
[/quote]

Follow the link to get a web address where you go to fill out a form and send it in and they will send you the 1 swing key: DRINKMOREOVALTINE

[dairic]

Disconnection: I could only see it in some footage with long irons and woods. This is 1965 and 1953 footage.

[attachment=1490487:ben animation.gif]

[chrisgilly09]

Models I believe are Snead, Hogan, and Nicklaus sooooo think about that for a minute.

@MJ--They are watching, no doubt

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358235613' post='6231029']
Disconnection: I could only see it in some footage with long irons and woods. This is 1965 and 1953 footage.

[attachment=1490487:ben animation.gif]
[/quote]

Get swings before his accident. Only ones I would care about.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1358200779' post='6227707']
maybe he will write you an email and call you a blood sucker or something cool like that. Come on! Spill.
[/quote]

I'm almost positive they are watching sir.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358256215' post='6231561']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358235613' post='6231029']
Disconnection: I could only see it in some footage with long irons and woods. This is 1965 and 1953 footage.

[attachment=1490487:ben animation.gif]
[/quote]

Get swings before his accident. Only ones I would care about.
[/quote]

I'll see what I can do. Unfortunately the video I have of pre accident is crap for quality. Do you know of good quality video I could use?

From what I could see though he seems to stay more connected in the late 40s footage I looked at.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358259865' post='6231799']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1358256215' post='6231561']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1358235613' post='6231029']
Disconnection: I could only see it in some footage with long irons and woods. This is 1965 and 1953 footage.

[attachment=1490487:ben animation.gif]
[/quote]

Get swings before his accident. Only ones I would care about.
[/quote]

I'll see what I can do. Unfortunately the video I have of pre accident is crap for quality. Do you know of good quality video I could use?

From what I could see though he seems to stay more connected in the late 40s footage I looked at.
[/quote]

Oh yes he does. I'll have to ask Geoff for some.

Supposedly Mac had a bunch and was going to send us all flip books and folders of great pics of snead and hogan in what he considers their prime. Still waiting for those pics though.