Can Hogan's Swing be Duplicated?

[tylerdurden]

You can have open pivot and be CF. Trevino is the CF fade model.

 

You can have relatively square shoulders and be cp.

 

You can have right arm bent and and butt of club moving left and be CF. See Anthony Kim and Zach Johnson and many others.

 

You can be CP and "sling it" and have a high over taking rate. See VJ.

 

Hogan was inline mainly. Seen some CF fades with longer clubs and the only clubs he got CP with were short irons and only occasionally. CF and CP and extremely misunderstood and generally causes more confusion than help. Therefore they shouldn't be used since many people don't understand it or make their own definition.

 

Look at his wrist here and in virtually any shot take from out in front of him that actually shows the hands post impact. Certainly doesn't look like Mahan or any of the OPS guys trying to swing left.

 

Nice. Looks like me in similar position from similar angle:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=JtNP44exqN4

 

JK

 

At :07, your wrist isn't arched and ahead of the left hand like Hogan's, if it were, you'd be 50 yds left in the trees.

 

Mizuno I just spit water all over my screen. Hilarious!

 

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure that first one was a toe hook, which could be why I put 2 swings on that video.

[dairic]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1357764611' post='6198731']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1357764429' post='6198707']
HOMEWORK: Everyone go read 5 lessons and the time life article with all this in mind, and report back with your thoughts.
[/quote]

Oh boy....I would get an F on that assignment.

Can I just watch swing video instead??
[/quote]

lol yes because as everyone knows, video adaptations are always just as good as the book!

[dairic]

You can have open pivot and be CF. Trevino is the CF fade model.

 

You can have relatively square shoulders and be cp.

 

You can have right arm bent and and butt of club moving left and be CF. See Anthony Kim and Zach Johnson and many others.

 

You can be CP and "sling it" and have a high over taking rate. See VJ.

 

Hogan was inline mainly. Seen some CF fades with longer clubs and the only clubs he got CP with were short irons and only occasionally. CF and CP and extremely misunderstood and generally causes more confusion than help. Therefore they shouldn't be used since many people don't understand it or make their own definition.

 

Look at his wrist here and in virtually any shot take from out in front of him that actually shows the hands post impact. Certainly doesn't look like Mahan or any of the OPS guys trying to swing left.

 

Nice. Looks like me in similar position from similar angle:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=JtNP44exqN4

 

JK

 

At :07, your wrist isn't arched and ahead of the left hand like Hogan's, if it were, you'd be 50 yds left in the trees.

 

Mizuno I just spit water all over my screen. Hilarious!

 

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure that first one was a toe hook, which could be why I put 2 swings on that video.

 

Hooks are good, it means your following in Hogan's footsteps. A fade with modern equipment means you're not there yet.

[tembolo1284]

So what's Snead then? Since he's closed and still yanks it..is he CP?

[tembolo1284]

You can have open pivot and be CF. Trevino is the CF fade model.

 

You can have relatively square shoulders and be cp.

 

You can have right arm bent and and butt of club moving left and be CF. See Anthony Kim and Zach Johnson and many others.

 

You can be CP and "sling it" and have a high over taking rate. See VJ.

 

Hogan was inline mainly. Seen some CF fades with longer clubs and the only clubs he got CP with were short irons and only occasionally. CF and CP and extremely misunderstood and generally causes more confusion than help. Therefore they shouldn't be used since many people don't understand it or make their own definition.

 

Look at his wrist here and in virtually any shot take from out in front of him that actually shows the hands post impact. Certainly doesn't look like Mahan or any of the OPS guys trying to swing left.

 

Nice. Looks like me in similar position from similar angle:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=JtNP44exqN4

 

JK

 

At :07, your wrist isn't arched and ahead of the left hand like Hogan's, if it were, you'd be 50 yds left in the trees.

 

Mizuno I just spit water all over my screen. Hilarious!

 

Interestingly, I'm pretty sure that first one was a toe hook, which could be why I put 2 swings on that video.

 

Hooks are good, it means your following in Hogan's footsteps. A fade with modern equipment means you're not there yet.

 

If i'm 7 degrees flat and D9-E0 swing weight and I still hook...am I just a lost cause?

[tembolo1284]

You are supposed to answer: YES.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357765489' post='6198855']
You are supposed to answer: YES.
[/quote]

You are ready for the secret young Jedi.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357765464' post='6198843']
If i'm 7 degrees flat and D9-E0 swing weight and I still hook...am I just a lost cause?
[/quote]

No - not until you hook with the clubface bent open 3 degs!

[tembolo1284]

where can I get my clubs fixed to get it 3 degrees open.

Problem is I don't sole the club...I take my grip all in the air...so how does that work?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357765956' post='6198911']
where can I get my clubs fixed to get it 3 degrees open.

Problem is I don't sole the club...I take my grip all in the air...so how does that work?
[/quote]

Easy - just grip it with the face open.

[iteachgolf]

Snead would be CP model.

[dairic]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1357764611' post='6198731']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1357764429' post='6198707']
HOMEWORK: Everyone go read 5 lessons and the time life article with all this in mind, and report back with your thoughts.
[/quote]

Oh boy....I would get an F on that assignment.

Can I just watch swing video instead??
[/quote]

ok BHSP here's your video homework. Which of these swings are CP and which are CF!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3kh0bjlYX0

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1357782941' post='6200697']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1357764611' post='6198731']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1357764429' post='6198707']
HOMEWORK: Everyone go read 5 lessons and the time life article with all this in mind, and report back with your thoughts.
[/quote]

Oh boy....I would get an F on that assignment.

Can I just watch swing video instead??
[/quote]

ok BHSP here's your video homework. Which of these swings are CP and which are CF!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3kh0bjlYX0
[/quote]

Oh, schit! A pop quiz. Professor, er....um....my dog ate my study guide about the CP CF stuff. But I had lots of fun picking out the hogan traits from those swings.

[dairic]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357770548' post='6199355']
Snead would be CP model.
[/quote]

iteach, is there something specific you look at in a swing when determining whether it has a CP or CF release? I use to think this was straight forward but I'm not so sure anymore.

[iteachgolf]

Look at their baselines in relation to their feet. Look at the difference between Hogan and Snead when left arm is parallel to the ground on the downswing and how the left arm relates to the stance line/feet. Compare the plane of the shaft at P5.5 between them both (mid humerus vs. forearm). Will start to see differences. These are the starting point.

[dairic]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357792373' post='6201769']
Look at their baselines in relation to their feet. Look at the difference between Hogan and Snead when left arm is parallel to the ground on the downswing and how the left arm relates to the stance line/feet. Compare the plane of the shaft at P5.5 between them both (mid humerus vs. forearm). Will start to see differences. These are the starting point.
[/quote]

With CP the left arm is more parallel to the stance line when parallel to the ground?[list]
[*]Snead has that sort of over the top looking action in transition and his left arm is definitely parallel to stance line.
[/list]

With CF the left arm pointing right of the stance line when parallel to the ground?[list]
[*]Hogan seems to attack more from the inside relative to stance line even with a closed stance
[/list]
I'm a bit confused about 5.5, I'll have to investigate a bit more.

Which one should have more layoff, or is that nothing to consider?

[dairic]

Something else that I find very confusing is why CP and CF are considered release types at all. What I mean is centrifugal and centripetal forces are always aligned with center of rotation, so how can these contribute to angular momentum which causes the release?

Anybody have an answer for this?

[Mike Divot]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1357799532' post='6202179']
Something else that I find very confusing is why CP and CF are considered release types at all. What I mean is centrifugal and centripetal forces are always aligned with center of rotation, so how can these contribute to angular momentum which causes the release?

Anybody have an answer for this?
[/quote]

The terms centrifugal and centripetal are totally misused in these "release type" terms.

But golf swing analysis buffs have never shied away from misuse of scientific terms in their techno-jargon. "Plane" is another one poorly used.

Unfortunately I don't have an answer for you. Maybe it helped someone sell more lessons. Maybe it just sounds cool?

[tembolo1284]

I totally forgot about the baseline reference. So CP is a chap who tends to shift his baseline a bit left...and CF shifts his baseline a bit to the right.

Is that right iTeach?

Your arms can be bent or flingy or rollerified blah blah...it's all about how you shift your baseline in your swing that determines CP vs CF.

iTeach would you say that's about right or did I go too extreme in that? It's not always so black and white?

[iteachgolf]

In simple terms yea pretty much

[dairic]

5L bending the baseline right

[attachment=1484137:ben-hogan downswing plane.jpg]

[tembolo1284]

So it that something that always is true? If you shallow out in transition do you shift the baseline right?

[dairic]

Is there any value in looking at the post impact movement of the shaft to determine CP or CF as John Erickson shows here? I always thought that this was how it was determined.

[attachment=1484139:001_JE_swing.jpg]

[tembolo1284]

[attachment=1484149:iTeachAnswer.jpg]

[Stryker]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357839338' post='6204073']
[attachment=1484149:iTeachAnswer.jpg]
[/quote]

LOL! Good stuff.

[tembolo1284]

And one more to get on iTeach's good side:

[attachment=1484157:inigoMeme1.jpg]

[dairic]

tembolo, lol

iteach, the topic of CP and CF would make a great topic for one of those excellent articles you write every once in a while on golfwrx. I think a lot of folks would benefit from having all of this cleared up.

[Stryker]

Trying my best to follow along. A little confused on the baseline term. Is the baseline essentially the horizontal swing path?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1357840517' post='6204201']
tembolo, lol

iteach, the topic of CP and CF would make a great topic for one of those excellent articles you write every once in a while on golfwrx. I think a lot of folks would benefit from having all of this cleared up.
[/quote]

+[size="4"]∞[/size]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357840290' post='6204171']
And one more to get on iTeach's good side:

[attachment=1484157:inigoMeme1.jpg]
[/quote]

cp & cf are not characterized by alignments or plane shifts, or any other geometrical consideration, they are two distinct physical ways to move the club. In track & field terms, cp is how a hammer thrower heaves the weight and cf is how a javelin thrower chucks the spear. The hammer thrower spins while pulling against the weight and then lets go. The javelin guy tosses the spear by throwing the pressure in his right hand at an aiming point.

To distinguish a cfer from a cper, observe whether his arms/hands are extending through impact and on through to the finish as opposed to fighting to keep his hands close to his rotating core.