Can Hogan's Swing be Duplicated?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1356644458' post='6125389']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1356642859' post='6125277']
Nice swing. I don't think you've duplicated Hogan though, not Hogan's dynamics, IMO. I see your swing as most similar on a cosmetic level, let's say 90% there, and lets say 50% on dynamics. Where as I'd say Gary Woodland has about 50% cosmetics of Hogan, and about 90% dynamics.

I think if someone actually "duplicated" hogan's swing from dynamics perspective 100%, you would see them playing on TV because they would be the best ball striker in the world, IMO.

Spider, Slicefixers student, also had similar dynamics to Hogan, IMO, and he ended up looking very similar from a cosmetic standpoint too. And played at a very high level before his tragic accident. RIP.
[/quote]

Good points Tyler. I'm going for the "as close as I can get" to the cosmetics. Everybody knows I have no care of the dynamics and ball flight (Sorry tembolo lol).

If I "duplicate" hogan's swing from cosmetics perspective >95%, you would not see me playing on TV, but I would be the best ball striker in my house, IMO.
[/quote]

lol nice. Good work on the recent 4D video too. Although teeace may now have grounds to sue you for trademark infringement.

[tylerdurden]

Ant, thinking about the 95% cosmetic thing some more, I think the only way you could get 95% cosmetic is by mirroring the dynamics. Because dynamics determine the cosmetics of the downswing and release. So like it or not, you're going to have to start focusing on dynamics (and thereby ballflight) sooner or later.

[hoganfan924]

The answer, IMO is "it depends." It depends on whether you're measuring with a yardstick or a micrometer. I certainly think it's possible to emulate anybody's swing to the point that they appear virtually identical to the naked eye. But that won't hold up when viewed under a microscope. That said, I don't think anyone who's ever attempted to 100% copy Hogan has made it in professional golf. Learn from studying him, not trying to copy every move.

[dpb5031]

Very cool. Aesthetically very similar, dynamically...I'm not so certain it's even possible. Looks good though.

Curious how you went about this? Can you describe the "process?"

[tembolo1284]

Prodigal Mr Muscle Boob revealed! You don't care about ball flight! You admitted it!

[bscinstnct]

The critical point at which you diverge from Hogan

Is at around 39 seconds into the vid

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1356645120' post='6125429']
Chris, what exactly are you trying to duplicate? Aesthetics, cosmetics, ball flight, distance, scoring, etc??
[/quote]

Just looked back at your opening post "In 2010 I was a 14 handicap and couldn't break 80." So my guess is you're interested in the scoring aspect.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1356652084' post='6125975']
Prodigal Mr Muscle Boob revealed! You don't care about ball flight! You admitted it!
[/quote]

The only part of the flight I care about is the end.....when the ball is no longer moving. If the ball ends up stopping somewhere near the fairway, I'm all smiles. But it's also fun when it ends up in non-fairway places too. Allows creativity to give birth. If it's draw, fade, straight, cut, high, low, piercing, weak, long, etc........not any care.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1356713739' post='6129219']
The critical point at which you diverge from Hogan

Is at around 39 seconds into the vid
[/quote]

Yep, that's the critical point that everyone diverges from Hogan. But not just from Hogan. From all the old-school swings from 1975 and back. I started my project based on Hogan's swing aesthetics, but I've learned that I'm not really doing a "Hogan" project. It's really an "old-school swing" project.

[iteachgolf]

From dtl its not even close. Copying any swing is a bad idea if your goal is to play your best

[dairic]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356717024' post='6129543']
From dtl its not even close. Copying any swing is a bad idea if your goal is to play your best
[/quote]

I agree that trying to copy looks could be a mistake if your goal is to play your best golf. Do you think some things are worth copying like intentions for example?

[iteachgolf]

Intentions aren't worth copying because different people with same intention will produce different results. Kind of a feel vs real thing. Studying WHY a swing works can be beneficial, especially studying different swings. Allows you to figure out how to make your swing work for you. Which is how you'll play your best

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

And the Front-On view doesn't show the "divergance" as much as the DTL view does. One of my old-school absolutes is at impact and post-impact.

 

If a person can get here, the old-school swing can be built:

 

 

 

 

Here's a major divergence. But not because they can't swing like Hogan or like old-school, it's just a different dynamic and release:

 

[dairic]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356717856' post='6129633']
Intentions aren't worth copying because different people with same intention will produce different results. Kind of a feel vs real thing. Studying WHY a swing works can be beneficial, especially studying different swings. Allows you to figure out how to make your swing work for you. Which is how you'll play your best
[/quote]

Thanks iteach. I'm curious about the very successful golf pros you work with. Do they struggle with preconcieved notions of what they should be doing based on an inspiration they got from looking at other players swings, or is their mindset very different from most of us amateurs.

[MizunoJoe]

And the Front-On view doesn't show the "divergance" as much as the DTL view does. One of my old-school absolutes is at impact and post-impact.

 

If a person can get here, the old-school swing can be built:

 

 

 

 

Here's a major divergence. But not because they can't swing like Hogan or like old-school, it's just a different dynamic and release:

 

 

That's cp vs cf not old vs new. There have always been both on tour. You can either pull in against the lag pressure or throw it down the line.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1356718794' post='6129737']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356717856' post='6129633']
Intentions aren't worth copying because different people with same intention will produce different results. Kind of a feel vs real thing. Studying WHY a swing works can be beneficial, especially studying different swings. Allows you to figure out how to make your swing work for you. Which is how you'll play your best
[/quote]

Thanks iteach. I'm curious about the very successful golf pros you work with. Do they struggle with preconcieved notions of what they should be doing based on an inspiration they got from looking at other players swings, or is their mindset very different from most of us amateurs.
[/quote]
Depends. Some have poor preconceived ideas that have to gradually proven to them that they aren't that important. Others buy in whole heartedly and just go with it, knowing they don't know much. Toughest to teach are ones who think they have it all figured out but in reality don't know much of anything real and concrete.

[tembolo1284]

Ya, I think slicefixer talks about it in one of his seminars showing the vicious roll tommy armour I think it was has compared to Hogan and a bunch of other more CP swingers.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356720373' post='6129911']
[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1356718794' post='6129737']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356717856' post='6129633']
Intentions aren't worth copying because different people with same intention will produce different results. Kind of a feel vs real thing. Studying WHY a swing works can be beneficial, especially studying different swings. Allows you to figure out how to make your swing work for you. Which is how you'll play your best
[/quote]

Thanks iteach. I'm curious about the very successful golf pros you work with. Do they struggle with preconcieved notions of what they should be doing based on an inspiration they got from looking at other players swings, or is their mindset very different from most of us amateurs.
[/quote]
Depends. Some have poor preconceived ideas that have to gradually proven to them that they aren't that important. Others buy in whole heartedly and just go with it, knowing they don't know much. Toughest to teach are ones who think they have it all figured out but in reality don't know much of anything real and concrete.
[/quote]

Iteach, is that you in your avatar? I'm interested in what happens at your impact and post- impact. And I'm not a swing judge. I just enjoy analyzing them. It's fun watching different release styles. You got any vids? Or impact stills?

[iteachgolf]

Yes that's me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZf_VFVm9lg&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lK3_-6EhGQ&sns=em

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Cool vids iteach. What swing methodolgy do you categorize your swing as?

[iteachgolf]

I don't. It's what works best for me and is similar to what I've done since I was 12 with more refinement over time.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356723310' post='6130199']
I don't. It's what works best for me and is similar to what I've done since I was 12 with more refinement over time.
[/quote]

Understood. Rephrase.....I'm guessing you teach golf (based on username); With a list of all the swing methodologies out there which would you closest put yours? Stack and Tilt, Right sided swing, etc. (i have no idea what all of them are called)

[tembolo1284]

"Swing that works best and gets the ball in the hole the quickest FOR ME Methodology"

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1356723961' post='6130243']
"Swing that works best and gets the ball in the hole the quickest FOR ME Methodology"
[/quote]

Basically. Draws inspiration from many sources and use what's best for me and my students. The guys I teach look massively different.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1356723637' post='6130225']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356723310' post='6130199']
I don't. It's what works best for me and is similar to what I've done since I was 12 with more refinement over time.
[/quote]

Understood. Rephrase.....I'm guessing you teach golf (based on username); With a list of all the swing methodologies out there which would you closest put yours? Stack and Tilt, Right sided swing, etc. (i have no idea what all of them are called)
[/quote]

Hey hogan swing project...You see how iTeach's vids show his ballflight? *cough*

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1356725777' post='6130393']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1356723637' post='6130225']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356723310' post='6130199']
I don't. It's what works best for me and is similar to what I've done since I was 12 with more refinement over time.
[/quote]

Understood. Rephrase.....I'm guessing you teach golf (based on username); With a list of all the swing methodologies out there which would you closest put yours? Stack and Tilt, Right sided swing, etc. (i have no idea what all of them are called)
[/quote]

Hey hogan swing project...You see how iTeach's vids show his ballflight? *cough*
[/quote]

LLLOLOL! Yep...its super clear. I see my ballflight in my vids clearly too, but that's before I convert it to youtube. The resolution gets crappy then. But I CAN see it on the Take 46 vid in the last swing..........sorta

Edit: Or my swing is soooooo powerful that the camera can't even pick up the incredible explosion of impact. The ball is traveling faster that the speed of light. It's a bird....it's a plane.....nooooo.....it's my ball beach. (That last word should be pronounced with an Australian accent lol)

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1356726586' post='6130445']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1356725777' post='6130393']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1356723637' post='6130225']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1356723310' post='6130199']
I don't. It's what works best for me and is similar to what I've done since I was 12 with more refinement over time.
[/quote]

Understood. Rephrase.....I'm guessing you teach golf (based on username); With a list of all the swing methodologies out there which would you closest put yours? Stack and Tilt, Right sided swing, etc. (i have no idea what all of them are called)
[/quote]

Hey hogan swing project...You see how iTeach's vids show his ballflight? *cough*
[/quote]

LLLOLOL! Yep...its super clear. I see my ballflight in my vids clearly too, but that's before I convert it to youtube. The resolution gets crappy then. But I CAN see it on the Take 46 vid in the last swing..........sorta

Edit: Or my swing is soooooo powerful that the camera can't even pick up the incredible explosion of impact. The ball is traveling faster that the speed of light. It's a bird....it's a plane.....nooooo.....it's my ball beach. (That last word should be pronounced with an Australian accent lol)
[/quote]

Hope you know i'm just kiddin'

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Yah Tembo....I know. I'm just having fun here.

Chris....sorry fer tramplin all over your thread. But me and Tembo try to keep life fun around here.

And apologies to Dan for all the questions. Swing looks great and know you're a superior teacher and stuff, but we probably see golf in different views. If this were Nascar racing, you would be the guy sitting the real car on the real track at the starting line trying to figure out a way to maneuver his car through all the other racers to get to the finish line to get the trophy. I would be the guy that's sitting in a replica Nascar vehicle in the parking lot with the hood up, showing it off to the carheads. (And why is it that Stack n Tilt gets such a bad rap? If a guy is a SnT'er, nothing wrong with that.)

Back to the question of "Can Hogan's swing be duplicated?" Chris, I'll do an animated vid of you vs Hogan from DTL with the driver so you see where you are.

[ajc57]

[quote name='christogarcia' timestamp='1356389571' post='6113327']
In 2010 I was a 14 handicap and couldn't break 80. I've been working on imitating Hogan's swing and took a lot of heat in my earlier stages. I still do now, but I feel I'm getting close. Question: Can you duplicate another person's swing?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo5Tie8-WdM&list=UUKhzOGU4U8o9xVU7MqK6s9g&index=1[/media]
[/quote]

absolutely. Ben Hogan duplicated a bunch of people's swings - to perfection. That is the very name of the golf swing game. Is it easy? hell no, but don't ever let that stop you from trying. If you can gain the knowledge, then you will gain the swing - not a minute before, and not a minute after. The closer you get, the more "heat" that will come your way...Hogan himself had to deal with ridicule and uncertainty, and it was those very things that drove him to all his great success. Perhaps if more people realized this - nobody would ever "settle" for anything short of what the great Ben Hogan put in front of us.

I can only imagine what kind of responses you're going to get here but keep this in mind, the great Percy Boomer once said,

"Pay attention to WHAT you are being told, HOW you're are being told, and by WHOM you are being told it."

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ajc57' timestamp='1356729100' post='6130677']
[quote name='christogarcia' timestamp='1356389571' post='6113327']
In 2010 I was a 14 handicap and couldn't break 80. I've been working on imitating Hogan's swing and took a lot of heat in my earlier stages. I still do now, but I feel I'm getting close. Question: Can you duplicate another person's swing?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo5Tie8-WdM&list=UUKhzOGU4U8o9xVU7MqK6s9g&index=1[/media]
[/quote]

absolutely. Ben Hogan duplicated a bunch of people's swings - to perfection. That is the very name of the golf swing game. Is it easy? hell no, but don't ever let that stop you from trying. If you can gain the knowledge, then you will gain the swing - not a minute before, and not a minute after. The closer you get, the more "heat" that will come your way...Hogan himself had to deal with ridicule and uncertainty, and it was those very things that drove him to all his great success. Perhaps if more people realized this - nobody would ever "settle" for anything short of what the great Ben Hogan put in front of us.

I can only imagine what kind of responses you're going to get here but keep this in mind, the great Percy Boomer once said,

"Pay attention to WHAT you are being told, HOW you're are being told, and by WHOM you are being told it."
[/quote]

Does Boomer's statement apply to the "absolute" advice you just gave him?