The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

My video Module Five: The Small Muscle Circuit and the Release is almost finished and should be posted soon on our website for download, likely before Christmas.

 

Module Five is the longest viewing time and most content-dense in the Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series - four hours and forty-two minutes covering in depth the following topics. The main issue in Mod 5 is the Levers Release - one of the most myth-shrouded and mis-understood parts of the golf swing. The Levers are the right arm angle, and wrist angles, and forearm rotation.

 

1. The mechanics of the Right Arm, specifically the really important right elbow action, both on the backswing and forward swing, with a ton of emphasis on the forward swing aspect of the right elbow/arm during Release.

 

2. The mechanics of the Wrists - both hinging and c0cking - on backswing and especially the forward swing during Release. Wrist Illusion is a big part of this. There is a very long segment devoted entirely to the widespread and very toxic flaw called Early Release, along with training aids for the Release.

 

3. The mechanics of forearm rotation, especially during Release.

 

4. The Release itself is covered in depth, with the Three Release Types, active v passive Release, two stage "booster rocket" Release concept, Hand Switch and the two "turbo-charger" Dynamics, kinetic chain, the Left Wall and it's effect on the Release and Release timing, the two main Power Sources, what "passive arms" truly means (hint - it does NOT mean 'slow moving arms'!!), how the arms are moved mainly by the Pivot from the Top to P6, blending the Lever Down Force with the Pivot Around Force for solid impact and accurate golf shots, and some related topics.

 

It will be in two separate videos to make the download times more reasonable.

[ofortuna]

My video Module Five: The Small Muscle Circuit is almost finished and should be posted soon on our website for download, likely before Christmas.

 

Module Five is the longest viewing time and most content-dense in the Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series - four hours and forty-two minutes covering in depth the following topics. The main issue in Mod 5 is the Levers Release - one of the most myth-shrouded and mis-understood parts of the golf swing. The Levers are the right arm angle, and wrist angles, and forearm rotation.

 

1. The mechanics of the Right Arm, specifically the really important right elbow action, both on the backswing and forward swing, with a ton of emphasis on the forward swing aspect of the right elbow/arm during Release.

 

2. The mechanics of the Wrists - both hinging and c0cking - on backswing and especially the forward swing during Release. Wrist Illusion is a big part of this. There is a very long segment devoted entirely to the widespread and very toxic flaw called Early Release, along with training aids for the Release.

 

3. The mechanics of forearm rotation, especially during Release.

 

4. The Release itself is covered in depth, with the Three Release Types, active v passive Release, two stage "booster rocket" Release concept, Hand Switch and the two "turbo-charger" Dynamics, kinetic chain, the Left Wall and it's effect on the Release and Release timing, the two main Power Sources, what "passive arms" truly means (hint - it does NOT mean 'slow moving arms'!!), how the arms are moved mainly by the Pivot from the Top to P6, blending the Lever Down Force with the Pivot Around Force for solid impact and accurate golf shots, and some related topics.

 

It will be in two separate videos to make the download times more reasonable.

 

Pure awesomeness! Instead of the twilight zone marathon, I'll be having a golf nerd marathon and loving every minute of it!

[ofortuna]

When hitting balls focusing on keeping my wrist pressure consistent from start to finish, I've noticed that there's a lot of tightening surrounding impact. For the bulk of my golfing history, I've always fought the complete release of my wrist angles that would result in a downward arching of my wrists surrounding and shortly after impact. In fact if you keep the wrists loose, this has to happen. When your wrists are passive, the weight of the clubhead seems so massive.. constantly pressuring your wrists to unhinge downward. Why did I always uncock my wrists only halfway on the downswing using so much physical effort in my forearms and wrists to fight a full unhinging? I guess I was afraid of hitting the ground, or afraid of allowing the clubface to suddenly snap out of position.

 

I'm definitely getting better at it with my irons and I've never hit them better. However with a driver, just the thought of a complete hinging and unhinging of the wrists boggles the mind. Will I chili dip it into the ground? Will I hook it off the planet? Will my wrists twist and contort?

[Jim Waldron]

When hitting balls focusing on keeping my wrist pressure consistent from start to finish, I've noticed that there's a lot of tightening surrounding impact. For the bulk of my golfing history, I've always fought the complete release of my wrist angles that would result in a downward arching of my wrists surrounding and shortly after impact. In fact if you keep the wrists loose, this has to happen. When your wrists are passive, the weight of the clubhead seems so massive.. constantly pressuring your wrists to unhinge downward. Why did I always uncock my wrists only halfway on the downswing using so much physical effort in my forearms and wrists to fight a full unhinging? I guess I was afraid of hitting the ground, or afraid of allowing the clubface to suddenly snap out of position.

 

I'm definitely getting better at it with my irons and I've never hit them better. However with a driver, just the thought of a complete hinging and unhinging of the wrists boggles the mind. Will I chili dip it into the ground? Will I hook it off the planet? Will my wrists twist and contort?

 

Pretty cool that you are starting to have these insights and seeing improvement!

 

What you had is called the Steering Impulse, and it is common in 15 handicaps and higher especially.

 

Caused by too much conscious mind focus on the ball, clubhead and impact between the two.

 

Folks who have it try to "make" the ball go straight by trying to keep the clubface square during Release.

 

Clubhead as a whole should move in a spiral shape arc, and on a long game shot, you will want some clubface angle closure to happen as well during Release.

[ofortuna]

Hi Jim, perhaps you can elaborate a bit more on what you call the "key move" in your advanced arms video or what some call parametric acceleration. Is the timing of this a big factor in the release of the club and not hitting the ball fat or thin?

 

When messing around with this move, I feel like I can really stay down approaching impact and it feels like I'm going to stick the clubhead into the ground 2 feet behind the ball but when I do the "key move" at the right time, I get ball first contact.

[Jim Waldron]

Yes - since Key Move is a part of Pivot Thrust or Stage One of the two stage "booster rocket" Release, it does affect the timing.

 

Left Wall formation is a big part of this, and helps create the kinetic chain or "whipcracking" as the Wall forms, mainly by left knee straightening fast. This part is covered in dept in Module Five, which we hope to have posted up this weekend, although it could be delayed a week due to some last minute edits.

 

Most who struggle with Early Release issues will feel that "sticking the club into the ground" feel you mention, until they conquer that particular flaw.

[mbmdeuce]

I've been working on this for about a month now and WOW! what a difference in my ball striking. I am also getting correct amount of spin from full shots to little pitch shots. It's not automatic yet but I'm at the point where I can repeatedly do it correctly.

[Jim Waldron]

I've been working on this for about a month now and WOW! what a difference in my ball striking. I am also getting correct amount of spin from full shots to little pitch shots. It's not automatic yet but I'm at the point where I can repeatedly do it correctly.

 

Awesome! And thank you for your feedback.

 

My guess is that - given your handicap - you were very likely only a little bit too far inside the plane and this concept helped you to keep it more in front of your chest throughout the swing.

 

Most golfers who have posted in this thread comment about how much the arm pushaway concept helped them to hit the ball better, but in my opinion, the forward swing part of the ASI is even more influential for better ballstriking for most of my students.

 

And that means a lead arm to chest angle of 30-45 degrees at P6 with no change in that angle until after impact, ie "SuperConnection" - one of Hogan's most important "secrets".

 

Happy Holidays, everyone!

[mbmdeuce]

I've been working on this for about a month now and WOW! what a difference in my ball striking. I am also getting correct amount of spin from full shots to little pitch shots. It's not automatic yet but I'm at the point where I can repeatedly do it correctly.

 

Awesome! And thank you for your feedback.

 

My guess is that - given your handicap - you were very likely only a little bit too far inside the plane and this concept helped you to keep it more in front of your chest throughout the swing.

 

Most golfers who have posted in this thread comment about how much the arm pushaway concept helped them to hit the ball better, but in my opinion, the forward swing part of the ASI is even more influential for better ballstriking for most of my students.

 

And that means a lead arm to chest angle of 30-45 degrees at P6 with no change in that angle until after impact, ie "SuperConnection" - one of Hogan's most important "secrets".

 

Happy Holidays, everyone!

Couldn't be more correct. My club would get too far behind me causing me to only play well when my timing was on. We all know the more you rely on timing alone it's usually in those situations when you need it the most that it's hardest to find. I play good with a long backswing that goes across the line and then having it arrive at the ball all at the same time when I don't have anything riding on it.... Unfortunately if there is the slightest bit of pressure I'm pretty much Fuchinhimired!

[starsail85]

Couple of questions after re watching the ASI video today . Refreshed a concept that I understand and am perfectly capable of doing, but I had drifted away from- part of my swing was confusing me however , I did the correct 45* pushaway with about 4" movement of the hands before the folding happened etc , but found that this caused an outside the plane takeaway, which made me question in the past if I needed to add some right wrist bend to get the shaft on plane for p2 . Turns out I didn't have to do that atall . Quite simply I didn't have a fast enough pivot in the takeaway, with the same arm movement but a faster pivot , I achieved a perfect on plane takeaway

 

The right wrist folds and the left wrist flattens naturally seemingly for me when the right arm begins to fold

 

Couple of questions

 

1. How does the completion of the arm fold relate to swing lengths? Should the right arm be fully folded by p3 or is it a later point in the swing? Particularly interested in how I should be hitting a half wedge shot with the p3 backswing

 

2. Does the right arm get any closer to the body in the downswing than it was at address? If so does that mean 4" movement in backswing and more in the downswing? Or do you set up with super connection?

 

3. Of the three arm pressures, is the out part of the triangle from right triceps extensor action? Or both arms trying to extend?

[Jim Waldron]

Yes, very common for folks new to ASI to end up outside the plane with the shaft due to too slow or too late starting Pivot. Getting that Pivot earlier/faster will cause the shaft to track back on the plane.

 

Right arm will stop folding - and thus stop raising the left arm - right before the Top is reached so more like P3.5 or a bit later even.

 

Right elbow will be a bit closer to the body from P6 to just after impact, but mainly due to the lead arm to chest angle being more than at Setup, along with rightward Tilt on the forward swing and the Pivot, all combine to make the arms a bit more "in" to the body, ie NOT the same as Setup.

 

Both arms do the stretch/extension pressure, but right arm is more crucial to get it right, ie more likely to lose it with right arm than with left.

[SARF]

You can do something new and great in 5 swings, but it takes longer to ingrain it - where you just look at the target and swing away with a blank mind and it happens naturally.

 

I promise I thought the same until I experienced it. The changes Dan made are actually "natural" which makes it so easy. It is biomechanics, vs the stuff I have been trying to do for years. There is no other explanations of how I have been able to not once go back to the old swing on video with such little practice or effort. It is just easier when you understand how the body works. I can't explain it. But trust me, had I not experienced it, I would have said "no that is just a feel and it will go away, it is golf". I thought tembolo was being sarcastic when he said it took him 2 swings on his thread. Then Csagan confirmed he did the same. I was stunned when I experienced it. Like I said, not every one does, but it can happen.

 

For the record, I do not believe in Bigfoot, ghosts, Lockness, Yetti, or getting rich quick.

 

 

I've had something similar a few years ago. Although it was something I found myself.

 

I was on a range one day, tried a particular swing thought and from one shot to the next I went from hitting a 7 iron 150 yards to 175 yards. I was literally laughing each time I hit the ball seeing how high and far it was going compared to normal. Tried it through the entire bag and it was the same, every shot adding 2 club lengths. This didn't change for a year or so. Then circumstances changed and I barely played for 3 years and that's where I am now. Unfortunately during the break to playing I have gone back to hitting it as before that swing thought.

It's funny, I've been back playing nearly a year and I have not hit an iron like I did before, with that feeling or distance. Not even once. Even if I use the same swing thought I used previously, so there is something else a miss, probably something pretty simple and fundamental.

 

The search for the eureka moment again continues.

[starsail85]

Yes, very common for folks new to ASI to end up outside the plane with the shaft due to too slow or too late starting Pivot. Getting that Pivot earlier/faster will cause the shaft to track back on the plane.

 

Right arm will stop folding - and thus stop raising the left arm - right before the Top is reached so more like P3.5 or a bit later even.

 

Right elbow will be a bit closer to the body from P6 to just after impact, but mainly due to the lead arm to chest angle being more than at Setup, along with rightward Tilt on the forward swing and the Pivot, all combine to make the arms a bit more "in" to the body, ie NOT the same as Setup.

 

Both arms do the stretch/extension pressure, but right arm is more crucial to get it right, ie more likely to lose it with right arm than with left.

 

I've always struggled to conceptualise tilt switch . Assuming a correct backswing, would returning the right arm to the ribcage on the 45* angle it left on , by using the body opposed to pulling the arms back in , be a way of achieving this move?

[Jim Waldron]

Yes on the Tilt Switch causing the arms to return to the body. It is one of the most controversial and myth-laden parts of the golf swing.

 

The ASI makes us believe we have to "do something" actively with the arms to "bring them down and into the body", when in truth all you need to do is make a proper Pivot motion, including the Tilt Switch, and those Pivot forces will move the sides of the Triangle (the arms) down, out and a tiny bit forward (closer to mid-line of torso).

 

There is a long section on this in the new Module Five video.

 

Not on a 45 degree angle though, except perhaps for sand and lob wedges. All of the other clubs the angle changes during second half of backswing, ie a driver will go from 45 degrees at end of takeaway to around 70 degrees at the Top. The arms will go more into the body - away from mid-line - at start of Transition due to inertia. The left arm will end up by P6 to a 30-45 degree angle, or even a bit more for young, strong and flexible advanced players using the Pro model, ie with much more open body lines at impact than is possible for average golfers.

[starsail85]

Yes on the Tilt Switch causing the arms to return to the body. It is one of the most controversial and myth-laden parts of the golf swing.

 

The ASI makes us believe we have to "do something" actively with the arms to "bring them down and into the body", when in truth all you need to do is make a proper Pivot motion, including the Tilt Switch, and those Pivot forces will move the sides of the Triangle (the arms) down, out and a tiny bit forward (closer to mid-line of torso).

 

There is a long section on this in the new Module Five video.

 

Not on a 45 degree angle though, except perhaps for sand and lob wedges. All of the other clubs the angle changes during second half of backswing, ie a driver will go from 45 degrees at end of takeaway to around 70 degrees at the Top. The arms will go more into the body - away from mid-line - at start of Transition due to inertia. The left arm will end up by P6 to a 30-45 degree angle, or even a bit more for young, strong and flexible advanced players using the Pro model, ie with much more open body lines at impact than is possible for average golfers.

 

Thank you . I will look into module 5 next month . That was the answer I was hoping to hear as I thought I may finally be doing it correctly .

 

I guess "actively" returning the arms to the body or adduction is a flaw then? And can cause problems such as increasing right arm bend in downswing /narrowing radius?

[Jim Waldron]

Yes, if you actively "bring in" the arms, quite common to get too narrow. You want the right elbow to start to straighten by the time left arm is parallel to the ground or P5, or a little earlier even. That will happen from Pivot momentum and just being natural and athletic, ie not "holding on" to the right arm angle, and not "casting it away" either. Basically doing nothing. That solves the problem by avoiding both common flaws of becoming too narrow or too wide - you want to be right in the middle.

 

Advanced players will tend to "hold on" and narrow and high handicaps will tend to release the right arm angle early and get too wide with the arms.

 

 

Probably a good time for my usual warning about trying to change your golf swing based solely on forum posts. As always, when I answer questions here about what should or should not happen in the golf swing, ie the Ideal or model, I am describing what objectively happens - NOT necessarily what your conscious mind should be "intending" or "thinking about".

 

The conflation between those two very polar opposite mind sets is rampant right now in golf - including on this forum.

 

I think it is a really, really Big Deal now in golf...always has been, and I have been playing golf since 1961, but much, much more of a problem now than decades ago.

 

Everyday on this forum you will read posts by well-meaning average golfers who will say something like this "Well, I read _______ (insert your favorite online teacher here) who says you should do X with your wrists at this swing segment, and I went to the range or golf course to "try it" and at first it worked really well and then it stopped working, and my bad shots returned.".

 

That kind of post is always a red flag for me.

 

Folks, when a good teacher is asked a question that is framed at the very start as "what is Ideal for all golfers (or even most golfers)", and then he or she responds with an answer that is framed in exactly the same way, ie in terms of what objectively should be happening, he or she is NOT saying that you should be "thinking about that move" when you practice or play, or "trying to do that move" either.

 

There is a huge Gap between intellectual understanding what your long term goal or Ideal swing move should be, and actually arriving at a point where you can execute it at full swing speed. That Gap is where the real learning happens. Which means the dialogue between student and teacher, the questioning, the pondering, the quest for understanding at a much deeper level of your mind than merely intellectual understanding. Drills, training aids, watching your swing on video, slow motion mirror work is what you do during that Gap time period.

 

One of the important parts of my golf skills Learning model is understanding the "model" or "Ideal" swing as a starting point of your journey to better ballstriking. Having a clear Big Picture concept of what the tour pros are doing in their body and club motion, and contrasting that with your own body and club motion, will save you so much time and energy by avoiding wasting your time/energy on pointless running in circles pursuits based on Illusions and Swing Myths.

 

I think it was the sculptor Rodin who said when asked how he created those amazing statues " I look at the block of marble and simply cut away everything that does not match my image of the human form that I hold in my mind's eye".

 

So knowing the Ideal can really help, but ONLY as a kind of guiding light for your journey through the Gap.

 

In other words, you should never use the Ideal swing information as a "swing thought" when swinging at normal speeds, and especially in the early stages of a swing change with a golf ball. The Ideal will help you a lot with slow motion mirror training though - the only time that "thinking" works in golf!

[Jim Waldron]

"Module Five: The Levers and the Release" video in my Great Shot: Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking video instruction series is now up for sale/download on our website at:

 

http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos

 

Module Five is our longest viewing time video by far - almost five hours total viewing time. The Levers or Small Muscle Circuit and their Release is a huge topic in the golf swing, which is why this particular Module is so long. There are a lot of myths, illusions and misconceptions surrounding these parts of the golf swing.

 

We divided this Module into two separate videos: Part A is three hours and 50 minutes long and covers: the mechanics of the wrists, right arm/elbow, and forearm rotation, including both backswing and forward swing mechanics; the true meaning of Lag, and how to create it and release it properly; the Hit Impulse/Early Release and drills for how to overcome both; Release timing, ie the factors that control being late, early and "on time"; Pivot Thrust and the Left Wall/Kinetic Chain and their effect on the Release; the Three Release Types; Release Trigger Points; passive vs active Releases; the Wrist Illusion and it's cures; my "going East" concept with right arm angle opening on Transition; what "passive arms" in Transition truly means and why you want them to "do nothing"; my Hand Switch concept and how understanding it can dramatically improve your ballstriking; Power Sources; blending the Down Force of wrists releasing with the Around force of the Pivot; the two stage "booster rocket" concept for creating an effective Release, and a bunch of related topics.

 

Part B is my take on the trendy "kinetic chain" theory - both pros and cons of that theory, including my critique of "blasting the left arm off the chest before and during impact", and several other concepts. It is 52 minutes long.

 

I think this will prove to be one of the most popular videos in the entire Great Shot series. Tons of drills and a lot of clear explanation about what should happen during Release, and how the Levers of wrists, right elbow and forearm rotation work in an effective golf swing.

[starsail85]

Would like to talk tilt switch having finally grasped the concept and having great results .

 

Firstly assuming a correct backswing, to do a full range tilt switch without any other aspects of the pivot , the left shoulder would

Crash into the chin?

 

I'm assuming that's the case , if so when does the tilt switch occur relative to the shoulders opening through body rotation in the downswing . Do you go from left lateral bend or left tilt at the top to neutral in transition and then towards right tilt by p6? I assume we want maximum right lateral bend at some point in the downswing? If so by when?

 

It's an exciting time for me now that I can perform the movement , just interested now in the sequence of the move relative to others and speed of the movement relative to others

 

Any thoughts here Jim?

[Jim Waldron]

Would like to talk tilt switch having finally grasped the concept and having great results .

 

Firstly assuming a correct backswing, to do a full range tilt switch without any other aspects of the pivot , the left shoulder would

Crash into the chin?

 

I'm assuming that's the case , if so when does the tilt switch occur relative to the shoulders opening through body rotation in the downswing . Do you go from left lateral bend or left tilt at the top to neutral in transition and then towards right tilt by p6? I assume we want maximum right lateral bend at some point in the downswing? If so by when?

 

It's an exciting time for me now that I can perform the movement , just interested now in the sequence of the move relative to others and speed of the movement relative to others

 

Any thoughts here Jim?

 

Chin would be hit if you just did the Switch but you are rotating the shoulder girdle 90 degrees to the spine at mid-thoracic spine region so you dont actually hit your chin.

 

Right tilt happens early on in Transition - way before P6. About ten degrees of right tilt by P5.

 

Rotation of the s girdle/torso hides the tilt by about 35%, ie you should have about 1/3 as much (or close to that much) tilt than shows up in caddie view, another swing optical illusion.

 

Not maximum right tilt, just the correct amount - not too much, not too little.

 

Caddie view with driver about 35-40 degrees of tilt at impact, 60 by followthrough.

 

Tilt Switch and rotation happen more or less simultaneously during early stage of Transition, which is why it is hard to see the tilt part.

 

Why so many of my students struggle to "see it" and understand it.

 

Golf swing theory is still today mainly grounded in a 2D view of the body and club motion.

 

Should not even be called a golf "swing" since nothing is being "swung" the way most humans common sense would ascribe to the concept of swinging.

 

Rotary/Tilt Golf Motion is closer to an accurate description.

[starsail85]

Would like to talk tilt switch having finally grasped the concept and having great results .

 

Firstly assuming a correct backswing, to do a full range tilt switch without any other aspects of the pivot , the left shoulder would

Crash into the chin?

 

I'm assuming that's the case , if so when does the tilt switch occur relative to the shoulders opening through body rotation in the downswing . Do you go from left lateral bend or left tilt at the top to neutral in transition and then towards right tilt by p6? I assume we want maximum right lateral bend at some point in the downswing? If so by when?

 

It's an exciting time for me now that I can perform the movement , just interested now in the sequence of the move relative to others and speed of the movement relative to others

 

Any thoughts here Jim?

 

Chin would be hit if you just did the Switch but you are rotating the shoulder girdle 90 degrees to the spine at mid-thoracic spine region so you dont actually hit your chin.

 

Right tilt happens early on in Transition - way before P6. About ten degrees of right tilt by P5.

 

Rotation of the s girdle/torso hides the tilt by about 35%, ie you should have about 1/3 as much (or close to that much) tilt than shows up in caddie view, another swing optical illusion.

 

Not maximum right tilt, just the correct amount - not too much, not too little.

 

Caddie view with driver about 35-40 degrees of tilt at impact, 60 by followthrough.

 

Tilt Switch and rotation happen more or less simultaneously during early stage of Transition, which is why it is hard to see the tilt part.

 

Why so many of my students struggle to "see it" and understand it.

 

Golf swing theory is still today mainly grounded in a 2D view of the body and club motion.

 

Should not even be called a golf "swing" since nothing is being "swung" the way most humans common sense would ascribe to the concept of swinging.

 

Rotary/Tilt Golf Motion is closer to an accurate description.

 

This makes perfect sense now . I guess we all have different learning styles but the idea that made the movement make sense for me was the idea of returning the right upper arm tricep part of the triangle to the ribcage without using the arms e.g. By tilting the shoulder section

 

I'm currently working through the pivot module video and the concept of the return to hip flexion and right tilt cancelin themselves out makes real sense to me.. does emphasise the need for the postural braces which is part of which module?

[Jim Waldron]

Would like to talk tilt switch having finally grasped the concept and having great results .

 

Firstly assuming a correct backswing, to do a full range tilt switch without any other aspects of the pivot , the left shoulder would

Crash into the chin?

 

I'm assuming that's the case , if so when does the tilt switch occur relative to the shoulders opening through body rotation in the downswing . Do you go from left lateral bend or left tilt at the top to neutral in transition and then towards right tilt by p6? I assume we want maximum right lateral bend at some point in the downswing? If so by when?

 

It's an exciting time for me now that I can perform the movement , just interested now in the sequence of the move relative to others and speed of the movement relative to others

 

Any thoughts here Jim?

 

Chin would be hit if you just did the Switch but you are rotating the shoulder girdle 90 degrees to the spine at mid-thoracic spine region so you dont actually hit your chin.

 

Right tilt happens early on in Transition - way before P6. About ten degrees of right tilt by P5.

 

Rotation of the s girdle/torso hides the tilt by about 35%, ie you should have about 1/3 as much (or close to that much) tilt than shows up in caddie view, another swing optical illusion.

 

Not maximum right tilt, just the correct amount - not too much, not too little.

 

Caddie view with driver about 35-40 degrees of tilt at impact, 60 by followthrough.

 

Tilt Switch and rotation happen more or less simultaneously during early stage of Transition, which is why it is hard to see the tilt part.

 

Why so many of my students struggle to "see it" and understand it.

 

Golf swing theory is still today mainly grounded in a 2D view of the body and club motion.

 

Should not even be called a golf "swing" since nothing is being "swung" the way most humans common sense would ascribe to the concept of swinging.

 

Rotary/Tilt Golf Motion is closer to an accurate description.

 

This makes perfect sense now . I guess we all have different learning styles but the idea that made the movement make sense for me was the idea of returning the right upper arm tricep part of the triangle to the ribcage without using the arms e.g. By tilting the shoulder section

 

I'm currently working through the pivot module video and the concept of the return to hip flexion and right tilt cancelin themselves out makes real sense to me.. does emphasise the need for the postural braces which is part of which module?

 

Postural Braces are in Module One Part D.

 

Yes on your insight. The Tilt - along with lateral hip shift and hip, core and torso rotation forces - is what moves the arms down and back into the body during Transition - with no need to do anything with the arm muscles to move the arms down and back to the body.

 

Just read all the threads on this forum devoted to the question "how do you move your arms to get them back down to P6 properly" and you will see a ton of misinformation as to how that vital move happens.

 

A good golf swing uses the deep core/torso inside muscles - including the side bending or tilt muscles of quadratus laborum and oblique abs - to power the arms.

 

Very much like the motion of a discus thrower or a shot putter.

 

Harder to get those muscles to activate though in golf, due to the fact that the golf club weighs less than a pound. That lightweight induces the golfer to use the "outside" muscles to move the arms and the club. Along with the ASI.

[ofortuna]

Over the years, I've ingrained an extremely flat shoulder turn. I've found that in order to do the tilt switch correctly, you need to make sure you get that left shoulder down on the backswing necessitating the "switch" to right shoulder down in the downswing, resulting in an on plane swing. Still a work in progress since every time I focus on something else, I end up flat back and through again.

 

Finished my first viewing of module 5. Truthfully, I feel the part comparing the different releases could have been edited down but there's a lot of good info there. Been working on the woodchopping drill outside my right foot. I'm able to hit some good shots with it occasionally but feels like a LOT more down than I'm used to. Jim, my question is, could the woodchopping drill ingrain the habit of actively throwing your arms/hands down instead of the ideal of your arms lowering passively?

[Jim Waldron]

Hi O - woodchopping drill is really more for wrists and right arm angle rather than upper arms lowering. It helps to overcome the Wrist Illusion, which tends to make one release the wrist angles sideways, ie flipping so the woodchopping is an exagerrated intention drill to over do the down part of the wrist release on purpose to help the folks who flip.

 

So yes - could easily overdo it and end up hitting some fat shots.

 

No drill is perfect, there are downsides to every drill certainly.

 

Yeah, the different Release types is a complex subject and we considered editing some of that footage out but decided against it, since a little compare and contrast and repetition really helps the student understand it better, in my experience.

[HogansHoover]

I started obsessing over golf about 18 months ago, and fortunately had the time to really dedicate myself to it. I was shooting around 110 average 18 months ago and am now scoring 77-86 kind of range. I am not amazingly athletic but have played quite a lot of racket sports and have really dedicated myself to golf. I made the most progress in the last 4 months with a really good coach who believes in using skills gained from other sports/ using special equipment to allow the body to figure out the correct motions intelligently and apply them. Rather than specific instructions such as "less right elbow bend" etc.

 

The one motion I was really struggling with was that I had a very flat and around the body backswing, I really couldn't grasp how to get steeper and the arms more in front of me, without my swing feeling robotic and losing sequence.

 

I realised recently that if I tried to maintain width and focus on keeping my arms feeling like they were moving away from the target in the backswing horizontally, videos of my swing would show me in a much higher and desirable position.

 

I started doing some research and then found this thread. This is exactly the issue/ misconception I had, that in order to get your arms to swing you needed to physically pull them across your chest as you rotated back. This combined with rotation would result in my hands being miles behind me by the time my backswing finished. As soon as you allow some space to open up and feel the arms work more horizontally it feels so much easier to swing with effortless power.

 

The detail in this thread is absoloutely fantastic and has helped me embrace this discovery and understand it.

 

Thanks a lot to all those who have contributed and in particular Jim.

[starsail85]

Return to hip flexion ..... should it feel like you bend from the hips in a NNE direction from the top of the swing or in the direction of the belt buckle ?

[Jasonic]

I started obsessing over golf about 18 months ago, and fortunately had the time to really dedicate myself to it. I was shooting around 110 average 18 months ago and am now scoring 77-86 kind of range. I am not amazingly athletic but have played quite a lot of racket sports and have really dedicated myself to golf. I made the most progress in the last 4 months with a really good coach who believes in using skills gained from other sports/ using special equipment to allow the body to figure out the correct motions intelligently and apply them. Rather than specific instructions such as "less right elbow bend" etc.

 

The one motion I was really struggling with was that I had a very flat and around the body backswing, I really couldn't grasp how to get steeper and the arms more in front of me, without my swing feeling robotic and losing sequence.

 

I realised recently that if I tried to maintain width and focus on keeping my arms feeling like they were moving away from the target in the backswing horizontally, videos of my swing would show me in a much higher and desirable position.

 

I started doing some research and then found this thread. This is exactly the issue/ misconception I had, that in order to get your arms to swing you needed to physically pull them across your chest as you rotated back. This combined with rotation would result in my hands being miles behind me by the time my backswing finished. As soon as you allow some space to open up and feel the arms work more horizontally it feels so much easier to swing with effortless power.

 

The detail in this thread is absoloutely fantastic and has helped me embrace this discovery and understand it.

 

Thanks a lot to all those who have contributed and in particular Jim.

 

I think you mean swingvthe arms vertically not horizontally. Horizontallyvwould be flat and across your chest while vertically is up and in front

[HogansHoover]

I meant as in them Pushing away from me in order to remain on a line which is directly behind the target which due to pivot results in them lifting up and staying ahead of me

 

Horizontal was the wrong term to use, you're right

[Jasonic]

I meant as in them Pushing away from me in order to remain on a line which is directly behind the target which due to pivot results in them lifting up and staying ahead of me

 

Horizontal was the wrong term to use, you're right

 

I had the same realization so was just trying to clarify! :)

[Jim Waldron]

Return to hip flexion ..... should it feel like you bend from the hips in a NNE direction from the top of the swing or in the direction of the belt buckle ?

 

Always tough to answer "how should it feel" questions, since feel is such an individual thing. Just know that you start to go back into flexion immediately at start of Stage Two of Transition or even a bit earlier (Stage One is core/abs shift left as the s girdle still has 10-15 degrees of coil to complete to the Top).

 

But yes, NNE is a good place to start to feel that move. It happens while hips are shifting laterally and of course while rotating so it is not a "fixed" direction.

[starsail85]

Return to hip flexion ..... should it feel like you bend from the hips in a NNE direction from the top of the swing or in the direction of the belt buckle ?

 

Always tough to answer "how should it feel" questions, since feel is such an individual thing. Just know that you start to go back into flexion immediately at start of Stage Two of Transition or even a bit earlier (Stage One is core/abs shift left as the s girdle still has 10-15 degrees of coil to complete to the Top).

 

But yes, NNE is a good place to start to feel that move. It happens while hips are shifting laterally and of course while rotating so it is not a "fixed" direction.

 

Got it , stage1 starts with left knee moving away from right knee and core firing at almost the same time? Then stage 2 is forward flexion from the hips and tilt switch whilst rotating all sections ?

 

I'm impressed with module 4 really helped clarify a few things and made me under stand my swing and also other players swings better . Does the swing map module have anything geared towards the stage 2 moves I described ?