The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

S - not sure I agree on your first point. I prefer at least 50% of Setup right knee flexed to be maintained to the Top, mainly as a balance point and brace for the rotary weight shift of the Torso. Yes, left knee flexes inwards to accomodate this. But if your hips stop turning at 45 degrees - which is the Ideal - or not more than 60 degrees max - then it should not cause any loss of Balance.

 

Right (and left) glute activation is part of my Mid-Body Postural Brace, along with the Pelvic Tuck and belly button contracting inwards.

 

You want to maintain all three almost to Finish, primarily for stability and balance. Yes on more right glute firing during Transition and during the right knee squat.

 

Core activation is the belly button an inch or two inward toward spine, ie Pilates essential. Not the core firing left on Transition.

[Jim Waldron]

Hi Jim, thanks for all your responses.

 

Based on module 5's discussion of the unc0ck and re-c0cking through the impact area, it's really a lot easier to see what's going on when you have the swingyde on. I think I need one of these to get some useful feedback on what is occuring. My left wrist wants to cup quite a bit into the follow through. Keeping the left wrist flat so that the swingyde would land back on my left forearm again (as I would imagine it happening since I don't have the training gizmo yet), feels very odd. It feels like I'm c0cking vertically with my right palm facing the target or right palm facing directly towards the ground when I am able to keep my left wrist flat.

 

Yes, for folks who suffer from steering impulse and a blocked Release, the half roll of the forearms motion will cause the swingyde to return to the left forearm around Followthrough position of hands at waist high after impact, If you block that forearm roll, left wrist will cup and face angle will open up, equals shots to the right and/or a slice.

[ofortuna]

Hi Jim, thanks for all your responses.

 

Based on module 5's discussion of the unc0ck and re-c0cking through the impact area, it's really a lot easier to see what's going on when you have the swingyde on. I think I need one of these to get some useful feedback on what is occuring. My left wrist wants to cup quite a bit into the follow through. Keeping the left wrist flat so that the swingyde would land back on my left forearm again (as I would imagine it happening since I don't have the training gizmo yet), feels very odd. It feels like I'm c0cking vertically with my right palm facing the target or right palm facing directly towards the ground when I am able to keep my left wrist flat.

 

Yes, for folks who suffer from steering impulse and a blocked Release, the half roll of the forearms motion will cause the swingyde to return to the left forearm around Followthrough position of hands at waist high after impact, If you block that forearm roll, left wrist will cup and face angle will open up, equals shots to the right and/or a slice.

 

Hi Jim,

 

Is it possible to hit draws with a cupped wrist because that's my standard shot? My occasional miss off the tee is a hook.

[Jim Waldron]

Hi Jim, thanks for all your responses.

 

Based on module 5's discussion of the unc0ck and re-c0cking through the impact area, it's really a lot easier to see what's going on when you have the swingyde on. I think I need one of these to get some useful feedback on what is occuring. My left wrist wants to cup quite a bit into the follow through. Keeping the left wrist flat so that the swingyde would land back on my left forearm again (as I would imagine it happening since I don't have the training gizmo yet), feels very odd. It feels like I'm c0cking vertically with my right palm facing the target or right palm facing directly towards the ground when I am able to keep my left wrist flat.

 

Yes, for folks who suffer from steering impulse and a blocked Release, the half roll of the forearms motion will cause the swingyde to return to the left forearm around Followthrough position of hands at waist high after impact, If you block that forearm roll, left wrist will cup and face angle will open up, equals shots to the right and/or a slice.

 

Hi Jim,

 

Is it possible to hit draws with a cupped wrist because that's my standard shot? My occasional miss off the tee is a hook.

 

:Pretty much anything in the golf swing is "possible" in terms of resulting ball flight. Depends on many factors....grip type, grip pressure, forearm roll affecting face angle, and path. . No universal answer. And two very different ways you can be left wrist cupped at the Top.

 

The question is: if you are trying to hit a stock draw shot, you are much more likely to be able to do that will a flat left wrist coupled with a half or quarter forearm roll during Release and a neutral to slightly in to out path.

[Tanner25]

The ASI makes sense on the backswing, arms lift and body turns/pivots. What happens on the downswing? arms, drop and body turns/pivots or arms drop, bump and body pivots?

[starsail85]

Hi Jim, thanks for all your responses.

 

Based on module 5's discussion of the unc0ck and re-c0cking through the impact area, it's really a lot easier to see what's going on when you have the swingyde on. I think I need one of these to get some useful feedback on what is occuring. My left wrist wants to cup quite a bit into the follow through. Keeping the left wrist flat so that the swingyde would land back on my left forearm again (as I would imagine it happening since I don't have the training gizmo yet), feels very odd. It feels like I'm c0cking vertically with my right palm facing the target or right palm facing directly towards the ground when I am able to keep my left wrist flat.

 

Yes, for folks who suffer from steering impulse and a blocked Release, the half roll of the forearms motion will cause the swingyde to return to the left forearm around Followthrough position of hands at waist high after impact, If you block that forearm roll, left wrist will cup and face angle will open up, equals shots to the right and/or a slice.

 

Hi Jim,

 

Is it possible to hit draws with a cupped wrist because that's my standard shot? My occasional miss off the tee is a hook.

 

:Pretty much anything in the golf swing is "possible" in terms of resulting ball flight. Depends on many factors....grip type, grip pressure, forearm roll affecting face angle, and path. . No universal answer. And two very different ways you can be left wrist cupped at the Top.

 

The question is: if you are trying to hit a stock draw shot, you are much more likely to be able to do that will a flat left wrist coupled with a half or quarter forearm roll during Release and a neutral to slightly in to out path.

 

Plenty of tour players who have a cupped wrist and plenty are flat or even bowed . Is a flat left wrist a better way to play for people who play less i.e. Average golfers?

 

What does a left wrist that gets cupped with the driver but not the irons indicate ?

[Jim Waldron]

Hi Jim, thanks for all your responses.

 

Based on module 5's discussion of the unc0ck and re-c0cking through the impact area, it's really a lot easier to see what's going on when you have the swingyde on. I think I need one of these to get some useful feedback on what is occuring. My left wrist wants to cup quite a bit into the follow through. Keeping the left wrist flat so that the swingyde would land back on my left forearm again (as I would imagine it happening since I don't have the training gizmo yet), feels very odd. It feels like I'm c0cking vertically with my right palm facing the target or right palm facing directly towards the ground when I am able to keep my left wrist flat.

 

Yes, for folks who suffer from steering impulse and a blocked Release, the half roll of the forearms motion will cause the swingyde to return to the left forearm around Followthrough position of hands at waist high after impact, If you block that forearm roll, left wrist will cup and face angle will open up, equals shots to the right and/or a slice.

 

Hi Jim,

 

Is it possible to hit draws with a cupped wrist because that's my standard shot? My occasional miss off the tee is a hook.

 

:Pretty much anything in the golf swing is "possible" in terms of resulting ball flight. Depends on many factors....grip type, grip pressure, forearm roll affecting face angle, and path. . No universal answer. And two very different ways you can be left wrist cupped at the Top.

 

The question is: if you are trying to hit a stock draw shot, you are much more likely to be able to do that will a flat left wrist coupled with a half or quarter forearm roll during Release and a neutral to slightly in to out path.

 

Plenty of tour players who have a cupped wrist and plenty are flat or even bowed . Is a flat left wrist a better way to play for people who play less i.e. Average golfers?

 

What does a left wrist that gets cupped with the driver but not the irons indicate ?

 

Yes on your first question. Flat left wrist is right in the middle of the spectrum of possible wrist conditions - bowed and cupped to the max being the two ends. Like almost everything in the golf swing, almost every one engaged in learning a better golf swing - especially average golfers who dont have a ton of time to practice and play - will do best to stick to the Middle Way approach.

 

Probably 95% of tour pros are either flat, or very slightly bowed or cupped at the Top. Only a few are totally cupped or bowed, as DJ is at the Top.

 

Not sure about your second question. Could be a case of "double-c0cking" ie trying to gain more ch speed with the driver by moving past flat as c0cking is completed into the cupped position.

[Jim Waldron]

The ASI makes sense on the backswing, arms lift and body turns/pivots. What happens on the downswing? arms, drop and body turns/pivots or arms drop, bump and body pivots?

 

Not sure I understand your question. But I will frame my answer in my own terms rather than using some other teacher's concepts.

 

Simplest way I can answer is to say that the swing model I created and teach, which is partially based on the ASI concept, the arms do go down, out and forward a little bit during Transition, but they do that move mainly as a result of forces from the Pivot acting on them.

 

That move happens after the lateral hip bump to the left foot has started to happen, at start of my Stage 2 of Transition, and it happens while the Tilt Switch and some other parts of the Pivot are happening.

 

So arms and pivot are mainly happening at same time would be the best way to understand it.

 

Actual sequence is: core/abs fire left as s girdle has 10-15 degrees of backswing coil left;left knee bumps back to starting position as hip girdle shifts left; then after the slight c head and s girdle pause at the Top, the Tilt Switch and rotary parts of Pivot happen, which starts to move the arms down, out and forward a little.

[Tanner25]

The ASI makes sense on the backswing, arms lift and body turns/pivots. What happens on the downswing? arms, drop and body turns/pivots or arms drop, bump and body pivots?

 

Not sure I understand your question. But I will frame my answer in my own terms rather than using some other teacher's concepts.

 

Simplest way I can answer is to say that the swing model I created and teach, which is partially based on the ASI concept, the arms do go down, out and forward a little bit during Transition, but they do that move mainly as a result of forces from the Pivot acting on them.

 

That move happens after the lateral hip bump to the left foot has started to happen, at start of my Stage 2 of Transition, and it happens while the Tilt Switch and some other parts of the Pivot are happening.

 

So arms and pivot are mainly happening at same time would be the best way to understand it.

 

Actual sequence is: core/abs fire left as s girdle has 10-15 degrees of backswing coil left;left knee bumps back to starting position as hip girdle shifts left; then after the slight c head and s girdle pause at the Top, the Tilt Switch and rotary parts of Pivot happen, which starts to move the arms down, out and forward a little.

 

Thanks, Jim. From what I can tell a lot of attention has been given to the backswing. It was nice to hear your thoughts about ASI in the downswing. Thank you - Tanner

[Jim Waldron]

The ASI makes sense on the backswing, arms lift and body turns/pivots. What happens on the downswing? arms, drop and body turns/pivots or arms drop, bump and body pivots?

 

Not sure I understand your question. But I will frame my answer in my own terms rather than using some other teacher's concepts.

 

Simplest way I can answer is to say that the swing model I created and teach, which is partially based on the ASI concept, the arms do go down, out and forward a little bit during Transition, but they do that move mainly as a result of forces from the Pivot acting on them.

 

That move happens after the lateral hip bump to the left foot has started to happen, at start of my Stage 2 of Transition, and it happens while the Tilt Switch and some other parts of the Pivot are happening.

 

So arms and pivot are mainly happening at same time would be the best way to understand it.

 

Actual sequence is: core/abs fire left as s girdle has 10-15 degrees of backswing coil left;left knee bumps back to starting position as hip girdle shifts left; then after the slight c head and s girdle pause at the Top, the Tilt Switch and rotary parts of Pivot happen, which starts to move the arms down, out and forward a little.

 

Thanks, Jim. From what I can tell a lot of attention has been given to the backswing. It was nice to hear your thoughts about ASI in the downswing. Thank you - Tanner

 

I say it here quite often, but I think a lot of folks think I am half-kidding - the the ASI is far more mind-blowing in terms of it's effects on the forward swing!

[rteach1]

just finished module 6. My favorite part was the explanation about the wrist c0ck and hinge. Made them much clearer to me. Also, for some reason your explanation of the pushaway and right arm fold was clearer to me than in previous incarnations. Tilt switch also became much more clear. Liked the last minute demonstration of the pivot moving the arms. Overall, this module was a consolidating learning experience. I have some questions, which I'll post later or tomorrow.

[TheGeekGolfer]

I just found and started reading this thread. I'm a 7-8 HDCP, but I struggle with keeping my driver in play.

 

It's January, so I've been working at the range and not playing that much in PDX. I was playing this last week with some friends and was trying to find something to get me around the course and anything in the low to mid 80s would feel like a success, given my previous range sessions.

 

I've been really trying to improve my biomechanics due to lower back and right hip issues. This led me to this thread and videos. Along with some Monte videos. Two range sessions working on a few key things and I shoot a low stress 78, with only two really 'bad' shots. Swing was free flowing and the back held up to play another 13 twilight holes the next day.

 

That 2nd round included a hole out eagle from 135yds. Trying to keep my excitement tempered, 2017 could be a very strong season!

 

I'm looking forward to reading more and following this thread.

[Jim Waldron]

I just found and started reading this thread. I'm a 7-8 HDCP, but I struggle with keeping my driver in play.

 

It's January, so I've been working at the range and not playing that much in PDX. I was playing this last week with some friends and was trying to find something to get me around the course and anything in the low to mid 80s would feel like a success, given my previous range sessions.

 

I've been really trying to improve my biomechanics due to lower back and right hip issues. This led me to this thread and videos. Along with some Monte videos. Two range sessions working on a few key things and I shoot a low stress 78, with only two really 'bad' shots. Swing was free flowing and the back held up to play another 13 twilight holes the next day.

 

That 2nd round included a hole out eagle from 135yds. Trying to keep my excitement tempered, 2017 could be a very strong season!

 

I'm looking forward to reading more and following this thread.

 

Thanks for the feedback, G!

 

I teach out at Quail Valley from Spring through late October, if you want a live lesson on how the ASI concepts and drills can help you to breakthrough to better ballstriking, please PM me for more info.

[Jim Waldron]

just finished module 6. My favorite part was the explanation about the wrist c0ck and hinge. Made them much clearer to me. Also, for some reason your explanation of the pushaway and right arm fold was clearer to me than in previous incarnations. Tilt switch also became much more clear. Liked the last minute demonstration of the pivot moving the arms. Overall, this module was a consolidating learning experience. I have some questions, which I'll post later or tomorrow.

 

Thanks, R!

 

Glad you liked it, although I think you meant Module Five. Mod 6 will be release in mid-February.

 

I have gotten a ton of positive feedback from folks who bought and studied Module 5 on the Levers and Release. The Lag and Wrist Illusion, Early Release cures, and Left Wall stuff is really helping folks.

 

I am glad we included the stuff at the end on how the pivot moves the arms in Transition since there are so many golfers who struggle with understanding "what to do" with the arms on Transition. Seems like there is a new thread started almost every other day on this forum regarding that issue.

[i*windows]

hello, I have a question about the hand path. from what I can understand in the backswing you have the hands active pushing away from the body at 45* whilst also turning the body -this I understand. but doesn't this cause the hands to go outside their initial starting point - away? - does this make sense?

[Jim Waldron]

hello, I have a question about the hand path. from what I can understand in the backswing you have the hands active pushing away from the body at 45* whilst also turning the body -this I understand. but doesn't this cause the hands to go outside their initial starting point - away? - does this make sense?

 

No - the body turn keeps the hands from going outside. They will track straight back along your toe line during takeaway or very slightly to the inside.

[i*windows]

thanks - that's seems like it should be easy bit its quite hard :-)

[Jim Waldron]

thanks - that's seems like it should be easy bit its quite hard :-)

 

Not that hard if you are practicing it properly-in slow mo in front of a mirror, isolating the three main parts first individually and then blending later on.

 

Super hard taking the concept at full speed tempo to the range or course with a ball....

 

Which is why I never recommend doing that!

 

Kind of like rubbing your tummy and patting your head for sure....takes a focused mind, body feel awareness and some decent mind-brain/body coordination skill set.

[haager831]

Hey Jim, quick question...I have been working on a better takeaway (your pushaway) and I am getting a much better vertical setting of the wrists ( I am much less laid off at the top) and feel much more in control of the club now at the top.

 

do you find that your pushaway move helps with the vertical aspect of setting the wrists in the backswing??

 

 

thanks in advance

[Jim Waldron]

Hey Jim, quick question...I have been working on a better takeaway (your pushaway) and I am getting a much better vertical setting of the wrists ( I am much less laid off at the top) and feel much more in control of the club now at the top.

 

do you find that your pushaway move helps with the vertical aspect of setting the wrists in the backswing??

 

 

thanks in advance

 

Certainly yes to your question!

 

The arm pushaway is blended with the wrist vertical c0cking action, and a bit of sideways wrist hinging too. Pushing down on pressure point #3a at base of right thumb, helps to get the left wrist to c0ck upwards. The "out" part of this will also aid in the "up" part.

 

It is very much a down, then out and up kind of action. Or a big "scooping" motion in the out and vertical dimensions.

[ironcat]

What's best way to get started with this swing? I have purchased the great shot module #2 which I am just about to finally sit down and watch with afew beers :)

 

but what's putting me off is wondering if I am missing out with just 1 module video? Like many others I can't afford the whole video + ebook (over $600).

 

I have an issue with an inside swing and low arms which I think this module should help with, and was the driving force behind buying it; but I also have an issue of the arms really trailing my body in the downswing. What would be the best module for that specific problem?

 

Thanks in advance, Ironcat,

[Jim Waldron]

What's best way to get started with this swing? I have purchased the great shot module #2 which I am just about to finally sit down and watch with afew beers :)

 

but what's putting me off is wondering if I am missing out with just 1 module video? Like many others I can't afford the whole video + ebook (over $600).

 

I have an issue with an inside swing and low arms which I think this module should help with, and was the driving force behind buying it; but I also have an issue of the arms really trailing my body in the downswing. What would be the best module for that specific problem?

 

Thanks in advance, Ironcat,

 

 

Hard to know where to start without doing a lesson with you and seeing your swing, knowing what your goals are, how much time you have for practice, etc.

 

Module 2 is devoted exclusively to the ASI and how to sync up proper arm motion with pivot.

 

Module 4 on Pivot deals with how to move the base of your Triangle (s girdle) so that the arms are not left behind. Some of Module 3 covers that issue as well.

 

If you only want to work on one known flaw, better to invest your money in a remote lesson via Skype with me than hoping to find one single "nugget" in one of the videos that might fix your flaw.

[ironcat]

What's best way to get started with this swing? I have purchased the great shot module #2 which I am just about to finally sit down and watch with afew beers :)

 

but what's putting me off is wondering if I am missing out with just 1 module video? Like many others I can't afford the whole video + ebook (over $600).

 

I have an issue with an inside swing and low arms which I think this module should help with, and was the driving force behind buying it; but I also have an issue of the arms really trailing my body in the downswing. What would be the best module for that specific problem?

 

Thanks in advance, Ironcat,

 

 

Hard to know where to start without doing a lesson with you and seeing your swing, knowing what your goals are, how much time you have for practice, etc.

 

Module 2 is devoted exclusively to the ASI and how to sync up proper arm motion with pivot.

 

Module 4 on Pivot deals with how to move the base of your Triangle (s girdle) so that the arms are not left behind. Some of Module 3 covers that issue as well.

 

If you only want to work on one known flaw, better to invest your money in a remote lesson via Skype with me than hoping to find one single "nugget" in one of the videos that might fix your flaw.

 

Thanks Jim, that sounds like a good plan. The video I watched last night resonated with me hugely, every flaw (inside > low hands > stuck > stand up > flip) epitomizes my swing. I am already seeing the move in tour swings.

[GoStars]

From my experience watch 2, then 4. And watch them several times. For me, I would pick up one part, then another.

[Jim Waldron]

Module Three is also a good one for understanding the proper role of the arms in the golf swing. Takes the ASI

Module Two info to a higher level of technical detail.

[Nard_S]

Really great thread!

 

I spent quite some time addressing a swing that violated a lot of sound principles. Chief among them was swinging arms across body and invariably end up with a top end disconnected and broken down.

 

The ASI thing clears up a simple confusion I have had with mimicking what Tiger or Justin do. So the 45 degree push away is gold.

 

The other thing it clears up is, arm motion back is a V motion but arm motion down is a U motion. I have always swung the opposite. U arm motion back, V motion down.

 

And I was always confused if the fix was U back and U down, which I tried to little success.

 

I'm already pumped about the progress I made, the thread has just turbo charged my enthusiasm even more. Looking forward delving deeper into all this. Thanks.

[Jim Waldron]

Really great thread!

 

I spent quite some time addressing a swing that violated a lot of sound principles. Chief among them was swinging arms across body and invariably end up with a top end disconnected and broken down.

 

The ASI thing clears up a simple confusion I have had with mimicking what Tiger or Justin do. So the 45 degree push away is gold.

 

The other thing it clears up is, arm motion back is a V motion but arm motion down is a U motion. I have always swung the opposite. U arm motion back, V motion down.

 

And I was always confused if the fix was U back and U down, which I tried to little success.

 

I'm already pumped about the progress I made, the thread has just turbo charged my enthusiasm even more. Looking forward delving deeper into all this. Thanks.

 

Thanks for your feedback,N and great to hear you are seeing some success with the ASI concept.

 

V vs U arm shape refers only to independent arm motion (how upper arms work) relative to the chest - not pivot dependent arm motion.

 

In reality, on the Transition, it is actually closer to a blend of V and U shape, favoring the U shape side. Meaning not literally straight down but mostly down with a little toward torso mid-line ad right elbow

straightens gradually.

 

Also means that the hands are further to the right of mid-line at Impact than they were at Setup.

[Nard_S]

Really great thread!

 

I spent quite some time addressing a swing that violated a lot of sound principles. Chief among them was swinging arms across body and invariably end up with a top end disconnected and broken down.

 

The ASI thing clears up a simple confusion I have had with mimicking what Tiger or Justin do. So the 45 degree push away is gold.

 

The other thing it clears up is, arm motion back is a V motion but arm motion down is a U motion. I have always swung the opposite. U arm motion back, V motion down.

 

And I was always confused if the fix was U back and U down, which I tried to little success.

 

I'm already pumped about the progress I made, the thread has just turbo charged my enthusiasm even more. Looking forward delving deeper into all this. Thanks.

 

Thanks for your feedback,N and great to hear you are seeing some success with the ASI concept.

 

V vs U arm shape refers only to independent arm motion (how upper arms work) relative to the chest - not pivot dependent arm motion.

 

In reality, on the Transition, it is actually closer to a blend of V and U shape, favoring the U shape side. Meaning not literally straight down but mostly down with a little toward torso mid-line ad right elbow

straightens gradually.

 

Also means that the hands are further to the right of mid-line at Impact than they were at Setup.

 

Gotcha. Funny though it is somewhat obvious, I've never internalized the idea of my hands to the right of mid-line at impact, always thinking back to set up position.

 

Appreciate the vernacular you use on these things. You speak in plane geometry on mechanics, real angles and such, all of it in a dialect that as a machinist I easily understand. Good stuff.

[Jim Waldron]

The arm motion in the golf swing is probably responsible for more debates among golf teachers and amateur golf swing nerds than any other aspect. Mostly because of the arm swing illusion. If folks truly understood the illusion and all of it's ramifications, you would quickly see all of those arm types of threads in the main part of this sub-forum disapear overnight. All of the debate about passive v active, etc.

 

What they really should be talking about is pivot dependent arm motion v independent arm motion - that alone would remove about 75% of the confusion. If you don't clearly understand those two concepts, good luck trying to form a swing theory and swing application that will stand up over time.

 

I laugh out loud sometimes when I hear folks complaining about "passive arms" causing their arms to lag behind their "pivot". All that really means is that that guy thinks the "pivot" is SOLELYhip rotation. If you don't fire your core and especially your upper torso/chest/shoulder girdle - which will move the arms really fast - then of course your arms will lag behind. And that torso/chest/s girdle is THE most important part of the pivot.

 

"Passive arms" simply means not doing anything with your upper arm muscles to move the arms in the sideways or horizontal dimension independently of the Pivot during Transition especially. It does NOT mean that your right arm angle does not gradually open up - of course it opens but it can open solely as a result of pivot momentum, and for most golfers that is the preferred way so that it matches their more normal speed Tempo (compare to a really fast younger tour pro). It does not mean that the upper arms don't rotate in their sockets, of course they do. And that can be active or passive. Or forearm rotation - same thing.

 

When you achieve "doing nothing" with upper arm muscles during Transition, that is what passive arms means. It results in the hands staying to the right of mid-line during Release and that is the true meaning of "connection".

[ofortuna]

Jim, or anyone else, could you tell me where to find the section on postural braces? I was looking through my videos with no success.

 

Funny you mention firing your core and shoulder girdle just now. That's been my focus lately.

 

Thanks in advance