The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[stashtv]

Yes - the arms don't go "around the body" - they go around your "face", or more accurately, your "line of sight" due to the fact that in golf we need to keep our head steady. Most of the time as we go about our daily lives, our face/line of sight is pointing in the same direction as our chest or mid-line of our torso. Except in the golf swing. This is one of the root causes of the ASI.

The idea of moving of my left arm away from me (at a slight angle) has helped me gain some consistency with the wrist hinge, when the backswing stops, etc. Now that this feeling is more comfortable, I have a better idea of how to hit all full shots and how to pitch (which has been the bane of my golfing existence)! Now when I mess up a full swing, I can better point to where I made a mistake (didn't complete backswing, started downswing too soon, arms moved too early, etc).

 

Another large concept this has helped me correct is NOT coming over the top -- it's really difficult to come over the top when starting the swing is via an "up" motion. My previous problem was coming way on the inside and producing a huge hook. Now I'm hitting more straight shots or a slight fade/draw (all far more playable than the big hook). This is my current "ah-ha" moment and I've written it on my little journal to help remind me of what I should be feeling and when.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

 

That's neat. How about you start your own WRX thread about your swing "thoughts?" Because this one is about Jim's ideas, not yours, nor whether or not you agree with his ideas.

 

I posted some of the John Jacob's swing videos in order for ASI readers to make their own judgement whether this "old school" world famous instructor is "100 incorrect". That's all.

There are millions of ways to get into a perfect impact condition.

[starsail85]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

 

That's neat. How about you start your own WRX thread about your swing "thoughts?" Because this one is about Jim's ideas, not yours, nor whether or not you agree with his ideas.

 

I posted some of the John Jacob's swing videos in order for ASI readers to make their own judgement whether this "old school" world famous instructor is "100 incorrect". That's all.

There are millions of ways to get into a perfect impact condition.

 

Start your John Jacobs thread please

 

John Jacobs is 100% wrong about a lot of things, including ballflight laws. Doesn't make him a bad person , or a bad teacher .

 

 

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

 

That's neat. How about you start your own WRX thread about your swing "thoughts?" Because this one is about Jim's ideas, not yours, nor whether or not you agree with his ideas.

 

I posted some of the John Jacob's swing videos in order for ASI readers to make their own judgement whether this "old school" world famous instructor is "100 incorrect". That's all.

There are millions of ways to get into a perfect impact condition.

 

Start your John Jacobs thread please

 

John Jacobs is 100% wrong about a lot of things, including ballflight laws. Doesn't make him a bad person , or a bad teacher .

John Jacobs – elected to the World Golf Hall of Fame, and the 2001 inductee into the GOLF Magazine World Golf Teachers Hall of Fame – is one of the most widely-known and respected golf instructors in the world. Recognized as “Dr. Golf,” his practical approach to teaching has benefited thousands of golfers. For this reason, the John Jacobs’ Golf Schools have modeled many of their teaching principles after John’s historical successes. By emulating his integrity and philosophies, Jacobs’ Golf Schools have been able to continually update and modernize these proven instruction methods to improve the techniques John so successfully developed. Residing in England and now teaching on a limited basis, John was recently awarded one of Britain’s highest honors, the QBE (Order of British Empire).

Presented by Queen Elizabeth II, the QBE has been awarded to John in recognition of his many years of service and numerous contributions to the game of ·golf. Earlier recognition of John’s talents include his appointment as captain of the first two European Ryder Cup teams in 1979 and 1981 and being made the first Honorary Life Member of the European Tour.

[Jim Waldron]

Just want to chime in on this illusion idea...

 

I've been going to a local (to Los Angeles) golf instruction/fitness place since late June. Since then, I'be spent a lot of time with one instructor who has both helped reshape my setup, fitness and ideas for my hands/motion for the backswing and downswing. My gains have been 20-30+ yards with instruction, but the most recent breakthrough have been utilizing ideas presented within the ideas of the arm swing illusion.

 

With the most recent session, the instruction (a different one from the previous sessions) told me: just push your left arm (righty golfer) up+out as far as you can -- don't even think about bring it around my body. While he didn't mention the arm swing illusion, the concepts he talked about immediately reminded of the Youtube vid I saw a few years ago. Once I "pushed" my arm upwards and out away from me, the only thing I needed to do was turn my shoulders as fast as possible. Because of these ideas, I hit some of the best shots on the range and the first round immediately after practice. I'm not cured of all my faults (by far), but learning to trust this new "feel" has yielded some very impressive consistency with ball striking that I didn't believe possible.

 

Pretty cool insights on the ASI concept!

 

Yes - the arms don't go "around the body" - they go around your "face", or more accurately, your "line of sight" due to the fact that in golf we need to keep our head steady. Most of the time as we go about our daily lives, our face/line of sight is pointing in the same direction as our chest or mid-line of our torso. Except in the golf swing. This is one of the root causes of the ASI.

 

So awesome. I was just watching a pro baseball coach on TV show a woman sportscaster how to 'not throw like a girl.' Guess what? He demonstrated that poor throwers intuitively square and stop their chests where the thrower is facing, then fling their throwing arms, often weakly and inaccurately.

 

He showed her how to pivot and rotate her shoulders/chest to hurl the ball. Bingo. Release occurred when the chest was 30-45 degrees turned *past* facing the target. While the eyes remained target-faced. Here's a video of throwing sports showing sequencing and shoulder rotation just for fun.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=LBFoxpVLpjk

 

Thanks for that very interesting link!

 

And spot on analysis - engaging the Pivot is one of the really essential keys to a successful golf swing

[Jim Waldron]

Yes - the arms don't go "around the body" - they go around your "face", or more accurately, your "line of sight" due to the fact that in golf we need to keep our head steady. Most of the time as we go about our daily lives, our face/line of sight is pointing in the same direction as our chest or mid-line of our torso. Except in the golf swing. This is one of the root causes of the ASI.

The idea of moving of my left arm away from me (at a slight angle) has helped me gain some consistency with the wrist hinge, when the backswing stops, etc. Now that this feeling is more comfortable, I have a better idea of how to hit all full shots and how to pitch (which has been the bane of my golfing existence)! Now when I mess up a full swing, I can better point to where I made a mistake (didn't complete backswing, started downswing too soon, arms moved too early, etc).

 

Another large concept this has helped me correct is NOT coming over the top -- it's really difficult to come over the top when starting the swing is via an "up" motion. My previous problem was coming way on the inside and producing a huge hook. Now I'm hitting more straight shots or a slight fade/draw (all far more playable than the big hook). This is my current "ah-ha" moment and I've written it on my little journal to help remind me of what I should be feeling and when.

 

Yes - you need to blend in a little right wrist hinge/flattening left wrist with the left arm pushaway. Doing that while pivoting allows the shaft to track back on plane, and gets you in a really good Top of backswing position.

[mc3jack]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

 

That's neat. How about you start your own WRX thread about your swing "thoughts?" Because this one is about Jim's ideas, not yours, nor whether or not you agree with his ideas.

 

I posted some of the John Jacob's swing videos in order for ASI readers to make their own judgement whether this "old school" world famous instructor is "100 incorrect". That's all.

There are millions of ways to get into a perfect impact condition.

 

Start your John Jacobs thread please

 

John Jacobs is 100% wrong about a lot of things, including ballflight laws. Doesn't make him a bad person , or a bad teacher .

 

John Jacobs – elected to the World Golf Hall of Fame, and the 2001 inductee into the GOLF Magazine World Golf Teachers Hall of Fame – is one of the most widely-known and respected golf instructors in the world. Recognized as “Dr. Golf,” his practical approach to teaching has benefited thousands of golfers. For this reason, the John Jacobs’ Golf Schools have modeled many of their teaching principles after John’s historical successes. By emulating his integrity and philosophies, Jacobs’ Golf Schools have been able to continually update and modernize these proven instruction methods to improve the techniques John so successfully developed. Residing in England and now teaching on a limited basis, John was recently awarded one of Britain’s highest honors, the QBE (Order of British Empire).

Presented by Queen Elizabeth II, the QBE has been awarded to John in recognition of his many years of service and numerous contributions to the game of ·golf. Earlier recognition of John’s talents include his appointment as captain of the first two European Ryder Cup teams in 1979 and 1981 and being made the first Honorary Life Member of the European Tour.

 

Please enter "Gerry Hogan" in the search box above and read the discussion about threadjacking. Then STFU or GTFO.

[1t2golf]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

 

That's neat. How about you start your own WRX thread about your swing "thoughts?" Because this one is about Jim's ideas, not yours, nor whether or not you agree with his ideas.

 

I posted some of the John Jacob's swing videos in order for ASI readers to make their own judgement whether this "old school" world famous instructor is "100 incorrect". That's all.

There are millions of ways to get into a perfect impact condition.

 

Start your John Jacobs thread please

 

John Jacobs is 100% wrong about a lot of things, including ballflight laws. Doesn't make him a bad person , or a bad teacher .

 

John Jacobs – elected to the World Golf Hall of Fame, and the 2001 inductee into the GOLF Magazine World Golf Teachers Hall of Fame – is one of the most widely-known and respected golf instructors in the world. Recognized as “Dr. Golf,” his practical approach to teaching has benefited thousands of golfers. For this reason, the John Jacobs’ Golf Schools have modeled many of their teaching principles after John’s historical successes. By emulating his integrity and philosophies, Jacobs’ Golf Schools have been able to continually update and modernize these proven instruction methods to improve the techniques John so successfully developed. Residing in England and now teaching on a limited basis, John was recently awarded one of Britain’s highest honors, the QBE (Order of British Empire).

Presented by Queen Elizabeth II, the QBE has been awarded to John in recognition of his many years of service and numerous contributions to the game of ·golf. Earlier recognition of John’s talents include his appointment as captain of the first two European Ryder Cup teams in 1979 and 1981 and being made the first Honorary Life Member of the European Tour.

 

Please stop your threadjacking.

 

Start your own John Jacob's topic if you want to discuss John Jacobs.

[Jim Waldron]

What I mentioned in my post above about lack of understanding of how to learn movement patterns being a really big problem in the current golf instruction scene was not an exagerration.

 

Twenty-five years ago there was cliche in the instruction world that teachers joked about. The relatively rare overly-analytical student who subscribed to all the major golf magazines, who owned racks of VHS tapes on the golf swing, and scores of books about the swing. A guy who obsessed about the golf swing 24/7. But more often than not could break 100 regularly. If you were close enough to hear what was being said, you would swear the student was talking about how to solve a mechanical engineering project.

 

That guy is now in the majority. (Thanks you, Internet!)

 

The reason it matters is because swing theory and swing execution are two totally different animals. You can have the theory down pat and still not be able to execute.

 

There seems to be a "missing link" in golf instruction that is about the Process and not at all about the Content. Judging by the vast majority of threads in this forum alone about how to learn to play better golf, you would think it is ONLY about the content, the "what to do" ideally. Hardly anything at all about the "how to learn it" and "how to practice it". And those two things are impossible to make progress in without a basic understanding of practical psychology of things like Focused Attention, Sensory Channels, Awareness, Habit Formation, etc.

[mc3jack]

What I mentioned in my post above about lack of understanding of how to learn movement patterns being a really big problem in the current golf instruction scene was not an exagerration.

 

Twenty-five years ago there was cliche in the instruction world that teachers joked about. The relatively rare overly-analytical student who subscribed to all the major golf magazines, who owned racks of VHS tapes on the golf swing, and scores of books about the swing. A guy who obsessed about the golf swing 24/7. But more often than not could break 100 regularly. If you were close enough to hear what was being said, you would swear the student was talking about how to solve a mechanical engineering project.

 

That guy is now in the majority. (Thanks you, Internet!)

 

The reason it matters is because swing theory and swing execution are two totally different animals. You can have the theory down pat and still not be able to execute.

 

There seems to be a "missing link" in golf instruction that is about the Process and not at all about the Content. Judging by the vast majority of threads in this forum alone about how to learn to play better golf, you would think it is ONLY about the content, the "what to do" ideally. Hardly anything at all about the "how to learn it" and "how to practice it". And those two things are impossible to make progress in without a basic understanding of practical psychology of things like Focused Attention, Sensory Channels, Awareness, Habit Formation, etc.

 

Thanks for the great post! It's almost off-season up here in the PNW -- time to change from Play Golf mode to Work on Fundamentals mode in the off-season. Focusing on PROCESS methods like what you mentioned.

 

FWIW, I liken golf season to a car racing season. This applies to other sports, too. I 'build my car' in the off-season doing learning-process-based reps and body stuff and then when the season starts I EXECUTE whatever I've built and ACCEPT the result. Like Snead said, it's better to 'Run what your brung' than to try to 'fix your car' in the middle of a round. I certainly cannot rebuild my golf 'car' midseason simply because it takes too many reps to make executing my rebuild unconscious. So I wind up playing Golf Swing instead of Golf.

 

Another way of putting this is how a football team like the Seattle Seahawks puts together "pieces" in the form of players, then focuses on Execution and Acceptance during the season. The team employs the same mind coach that Kari Walsh and Misty May, the legendary beach volleyball Olympians, used to win.

 

The 'pieces' of a player's GOLF game, physically and mentally, have to be developed and organized so the player can Execute successfully, without thinking of process while playing during the season.

 

We have a joke in my group about the epidemic of Internet Swing Crack. When someone opens their yap about mechanics, especially during a round, we say, "Put down the crack pipe!"

 

I feel for you instructors trying to hack through people's Confirmation Biases and the delusions they've constructed. Golf is *highly* delusional, that's part of the fun for people. Not understanding this, and letting the delusions turn into self-flagellation or victimization is classic. Golf narcissism, too, thinking we can execute shots a pro wouldn't try. A big part of the idea that 'You can learn a lot about someone playing golf with them' is that we're really learning how someone operates their delusions.

 

Speaking of Confirmation Bias -- the sheer number of Cognitive Biases that enable people's delusions and illusions is staggering. I encourage anyone reading this to take a look at this list:

 

http://rationalwiki....ognitive_biases

 

The realization that overcoming our biases is pretty much impossible unless we're Buddhas or something means we have to submit to a Organized Plan created by some kind of Sensei who's been down the path and knows the pitfalls. Only then do students have a hope of actually improving with lasting results.

[Jim Waldron]

Great stuff!

 

The main issue that I call "Contamination" is that some golfers put way too much emphasis on a purely intellectual understanding of swing theory, as if that is all that is needed to make real progress in the path to better ballstriking. It is actually more of an obstacle to better ballstriking because it interferes with the real learning Process that is about establishing a brain to body connection, to use new muscles, to create new movement patterns. That Process has everything to do with Awareness in Feel, a focused mind instead of a wandering mind, and a Deep Insight into the whys and hows of that new movement pattern. "Deep" meaning insight that goes way beyond mere theory.

 

I think the current fad of relying so much on high tech systems and video is because there is such a widespread lack of understanding of that actual Learning Process amongst most golf instructors. The high tech "bells and whistles" will never be a substitute for the Process.

 

Here is a recent example. A new student who had suffered from a common mechanical flaw for five years with no success in eliminating that flaw. Had worked with two very well know Internet teachers, both of whom use a ton of video, launch monitors, 3D systems, etc. Each of those teachers told this guy that his flaw was the "result of" a very complicated technical issue in his swing mechanics with no direct connection to the flaw. The student finally concluded that since he had zero success, that the problem must be the yips of some kind.

 

In fact it was not the yips at all, but just a very common flaw having to do with Balance. Usually that flaw can be fixed by simply showing the student how to focus his mind with a clear intent, and with Feel based Awareness for the body part creating the flaw.

 

He told me he had no idea what I meant by "feel awareness", dismissed the concept, and kept asking me for the "answer" framed in very technical swing theory terms. I told him that all that swing theory had done for five years was to create total failure to remove the flaw. Which he had no choice but to agree with since it was 100% true.

 

So he asked me what the solution was, and I told him - once again - a clear mind, focused on the body part with the flaw, in Feel Channel. Once he could do that well ( which took all of 15 minutes) I had him focus on inhibiting that wrong motion in the body part. Prior to this he had zero success with the flaw inhibition and the reason why was because he was "picturing" the body part in Internal Visual Channel or "talking to the body part" in Internal Auditory Channel, and thus had ZERO awareness of what the body part was actually doing.

 

After one hour he was cured.

 

Amazing what a little actual Awareness can achieve!

[Millbrook]

I could not find a way to insert pictures in here so this link below will have to do for anyone interested in learning.

 

Jim is ahead of the pack in understanding the (NLP) different processing routes of Visual, Audio and Kinesthetic (Feeling) and few teachers are adapt enough to be flexible in their use. Few client will have a clue what this means.

 

The other issue is whether the golf student is wanting to be taught by the coach or takes responsibility for their own learning and uses the coach as a resource. Unfortunately people are not shown how to do the latter and few have a clue about their own learning preferences.

 

There are more slides than you need on the link but a quick look at slides 3 & 5 and you can discern the idea behind a cycle of learning and the different aspects of it.

 

https://www.google.c...473490501283925

 

Jim, I think an outstanding contribution of yours is the idea of a swing map and would appreciate any comments you may have on whether clients change their map through the intellectual route first or do they only really get it when they feel the change and create a mind/body - feel/awareness link .

[Thoughtful Hacker]

The root of average golfers swing problem should be find in his basic swing fundamentals: grip, posture, set up, alignment, tension, balance, and hit impulse.

Nothing wrong with average golfers learning ability. Under proper instruction and good feedback, any hacker should be able to break 80 consistently.

 

Hacker's paralysis, illusion, delusion, etc. are all due to hundreds of conflicting, complex, and useless instructions and most of all his faulty swing fundamentals.

As the great teacher Ernest Jones said more than 80 years ago "good golf is easy"!

 

BTW, I read how the arms swing work in front of torso clearly for the first time in Michael McTeigue's small and beautiful old book "The Keys to the effortless golf swing". He was also the brain behind Jim McLean's X-factor theory.

[Redpro]

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/warning-on-tiger-fragile

 

Jaime Diaz article, and an interesting observation of the mind-body connection.

[Jim Waldron]

I could not find a way to insert pictures in here so this link below will have to do for anyone interested in learning.

 

Jim is ahead of the pack in understanding the (NLP) different processing routes of Visual, Audio and Kinesthetic (Feeling) and few teachers are adapt enough to be flexible in their use. Few client will have a clue what this means.

 

The other issue is whether the golf student is wanting to be taught by the coach or takes responsibility for their own learning and uses the coach as a resource. Unfortunately people are not shown how to do the latter and few have a clue about their own learning preferences.

 

There are more slides than you need on the link but a quick look at slides 3 & 5 and you can discern the idea behind a cycle of learning and the different aspects of it.

 

https://www.google.c...473490501283925

 

Jim, I think an outstanding contribution of yours is the idea of a swing map and would appreciate any comments you may have on whether clients change their map through the intellectual route first or do they only really get it when they feel the change and create a mind/body - feel/awareness link .

 

The Swing Map is my term for all of the layers of feels, concepts, beliefs and conclusions that a golfer has compiled during his time in the game, and those things are focused in on a few key areas: how the club moves through space or basic swing geometry or shape, power - especially it's application on the forward swing, impact, and the basic mechanics of how the body parts move.

 

Purely intellectual understanding never reaches the level of the subconscious mind Swing Map, which is why a very common thing happens in lessons: the student knows intellectually that his body part has to move "this way", but his body keeps putting that body part into a totally different position. Until suddenly in one moment of insight based on Awareness, usually in Feel, they can suddenly get their body part into the right position.

 

Awareness is a golfer's Number One tool - without it, all you have is lot of ideas roaming around in your head. Awareness allows your brain-mind to connect to your body in real time.

[starsail85]

Can the swing map be altered to perform the golf swing at a higher speed than previously possible?

 

I'm curious to the power of the mind when you relate it to power production. Apparently autistic people are a lot stronger than normal, due to something in the brain? Forgive my ignorance , just interested to know if I was capable of performing my swing at 120mph etc

[Jim Waldron]

Can the swing map be altered to perform the golf swing at a higher speed than previously possible?

 

I'm curious to the power of the mind when you relate it to power production. Apparently autistic people are a lot stronger than normal, due to something in the brain? Forgive my ignorance , just interested to know if I was capable of performing my swing at 120mph etc

 

In theory, yes. Beliefs are very powerful. If your image of yourself as a golfer is someone who is lacking in power, your body will find a way to match that belief. Beliefs become internal representational systems that we "overlay" onto the objective material world that we all live in. If strong enough, we then start to react to that rep system AS IF it was actually the real material objective world. And that fact explains a lot of human behavior, especially destructive or toxic behavior.

[starsail85]

Can the swing map be altered to perform the golf swing at a higher speed than previously possible?

 

I'm curious to the power of the mind when you relate it to power production. Apparently autistic people are a lot stronger than normal, due to something in the brain? Forgive my ignorance , just interested to know if I was capable of performing my swing at 120mph etc

 

In theory, yes. Beliefs are very powerful. If your image of yourself as a golfer is someone who is lacking in power, your body will find a way to match that belief. Beliefs become internal representational systems that we "overlay" onto the objective material world that we all live in. If strong enough, we then start to react to that rep system AS IF it was actually the real material objective world. And that fact explains a lot of human behavior, especially destructive or toxic behavior.

 

Very interesting

 

My self image is one of a short hitter, even though I'm probably average length at my level. I am gonna start believing and see what happens!

[Jim Waldron]

Part of my job as a coach is to motivate the student into moving into new areas of thinking and movement, areas that he or she currently is not engaging due to limited beliefs about what is "possible".

 

Confidence in your ability to make a golf shot is the most important example. If you lack confidence, no matter how great your mechanics are, you will likely mishit the shot. And Confidence is a belief. It does not exist in the objective material world.

 

Most of my new students suffer from the following belief: "I don't deserve to feel confident about hitting the ball well until my mechanics are perfect" . It's a very limiting belief. And also not very rational. I see guys with poor mechanics all the time who hit the ball reasonably well in spite of those poor mechanics, because they have a very strong belief in their ability to send the ball to their target. And I see other guys with good mechanics who fail to hit the target very often, because their belief/mind gets in the way.

[Redpro]

I just got the Great Shot! printed training manual and read the first 15 pages . . . pretty much the clearest explanation regarding the why and how of learning new mechanics I've come across.

 

I particularly loved the equation, mind control = body control = club control = impact control = ball flight control = target control = score control.

 

I looked at all the videos available and read "most" of this thread and started using the motions described in them. First was a simple push away and pivot, then I just turned in a vortex as described and was slinging well-struck shots at my selected targets. Pretty cool.

 

I only have one real concrete "thought" and that's "hit it with my pivot".

 

So far so good.

 

Thanks for your feedback and great to hear you are seeing some progress in your ballstriking!

 

I like the "hit it with the pivot" image, especially so if you can learn how to access a clear feeling for how that is done - as opposed to a visual image or a word command.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm at the "I think I am [somewhat] performing the correct movements stage [based on the readings here and in the Great Shot manual], but I'm probably not performing the correct movements in the correct way" [because Jim is not here!] Ha ha.

 

I am studying the manual every day and trying to make the movements in slow motion with eyes open and with eyes closed. I'm pretty sure that I'll order some videos next and then try to make the trip to Portland next year.

 

Thanks Jim for hanging with this forum!

[Jim Waldron]

I just got the Great Shot! printed training manual and read the first 15 pages . . . pretty much the clearest explanation regarding the why and how of learning new mechanics I've come across.

 

I particularly loved the equation, mind control = body control = club control = impact control = ball flight control = target control = score control.

 

I looked at all the videos available and read "most" of this thread and started using the motions described in them. First was a simple push away and pivot, then I just turned in a vortex as described and was slinging well-struck shots at my selected targets. Pretty cool.

 

I only have one real concrete "thought" and that's "hit it with my pivot".

 

So far so good.

 

Thanks for your feedback and great to hear you are seeing some progress in your ballstriking!

 

I like the "hit it with the pivot" image, especially so if you can learn how to access a clear feeling for how that is done - as opposed to a visual image or a word command.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm at the "I think I am [somewhat] performing the correct movements stage [based on the readings here and in the Great Shot manual], but I'm probably not performing the correct movements in the correct way" [because Jim is not here!] Ha ha.

 

I am studying the manual every day and trying to make the movements in slow motion with eyes open and with eyes closed. I'm pretty sure that I'll order some videos next and then try to make the trip to Portland next year.

 

Thanks Jim for hanging with this forum!

 

Yeah, which is why you need to compare what your swing Feel is with what your body is objectively doing. The advantage of in person instruction is that after every swing or drill, I give you the objective feedback. You compare that to what you were just aware of happening in Feel. Then rinse and repeat. That is the gist of it. Trying to train smart so that your feel matches objective reality. It takes some time at first since your Feel will NOT match your body objectively. It needs to be trained.

 

But at least in Feel Channel you are at least dealing directly with objective reality. When using Internal Visual or Auditory, you are trapped in symbolic consciousness, ie you are dealing with fantasy - what you wish/hope your body to do - and not with reality.

 

When flying solo - like most of our students are doing who are using the e-book and the videos- you need to tape yourself once in a while when swinging at normal speeds to see what is truly happening. Or just use the mirror for real time feedback when doing the slower speed training.

 

The goal is to have a clear Feel sensation for the new move you are working on, at full speed. By holding that Feel sensation memory in your clear mind, you increase the chances of your subconscious mind "getting the message". You are using your Sensory System (feel) to tell your Motor System to do the move. The conscious mind Sensory System cannot - by its very nature - do the new move at normal speed, so it is "reminding" your Motor System (subconscious) to do the new move.

[Redpro]

I just got the Great Shot! printed training manual and read the first 15 pages . . . pretty much the clearest explanation regarding the why and how of learning new mechanics I've come across.

 

I particularly loved the equation, mind control = body control = club control = impact control = ball flight control = target control = score control.

 

I looked at all the videos available and read "most" of this thread and started using the motions described in them. First was a simple push away and pivot, then I just turned in a vortex as described and was slinging well-struck shots at my selected targets. Pretty cool.

 

I only have one real concrete "thought" and that's "hit it with my pivot".

 

So far so good.

 

Thanks for your feedback and great to hear you are seeing some progress in your ballstriking!

 

I like the "hit it with the pivot" image, especially so if you can learn how to access a clear feeling for how that is done - as opposed to a visual image or a word command.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm at the "I think I am [somewhat] performing the correct movements stage [based on the readings here and in the Great Shot manual], but I'm probably not performing the correct movements in the correct way" [because Jim is not here!] Ha ha.

 

I am studying the manual every day and trying to make the movements in slow motion with eyes open and with eyes closed. I'm pretty sure that I'll order some videos next and then try to make the trip to Portland next year.

 

Thanks Jim for hanging with this forum!

 

Yeah, which is why you need to compare what your swing Feel is with what your body is objectively doing. The advantage of in person instruction is that after every swing or drill, I give you the objective feedback. You compare that to what you were just aware of happening in Feel. Then rinse and repeat. That is the gist of it. Trying to train smart so that your feel matches objective reality. It takes some time at first since your Feel will NOT match your body objectively. It needs to be trained.

 

But at least in Feel Channel you are at least dealing directly with objective reality. When using Internal Visual or Auditory, you are trapped in symbolic consciousness, ie you are dealing with fantasy - what you wish/hope your body to do - and not with reality.

 

When flying solo - like most of our students are doing who are using the e-book and the videos- you need to tape yourself once in a while when swinging at normal speeds to see what is truly happening. Or just use the mirror for real time feedback when doing the slower speed training.

 

The goal is to have a clear Feel sensation for the new move you are working on, at full speed. By holding that Feel sensation memory in your clear mind, you increase the chances of your subconscious mind "getting the message". You are using your Sensory System (feel) to tell your Motor System to do the move. The conscious mind Sensory System cannot - by its very nature - do the new move at normal speed, so it is "reminding" your Motor System (subconscious) to do the new move.

 

Wow, Jim . . . most of us ARE playing fantasy golf!

 

Going to read your feedback more than once and will print it out to have a reference.

 

Thank you!

[Jim Waldron]

I just got the Great Shot! printed training manual and read the first 15 pages . . . pretty much the clearest explanation regarding the why and how of learning new mechanics I've come across.

 

I particularly loved the equation, mind control = body control = club control = impact control = ball flight control = target control = score control.

 

I looked at all the videos available and read "most" of this thread and started using the motions described in them. First was a simple push away and pivot, then I just turned in a vortex as described and was slinging well-struck shots at my selected targets. Pretty cool.

 

I only have one real concrete "thought" and that's "hit it with my pivot".

 

So far so good.

 

Thanks for your feedback and great to hear you are seeing some progress in your ballstriking!

 

I like the "hit it with the pivot" image, especially so if you can learn how to access a clear feeling for how that is done - as opposed to a visual image or a word command.

 

Yeah, that's the thing. I'm at the "I think I am [somewhat] performing the correct movements stage [based on the readings here and in the Great Shot manual], but I'm probably not performing the correct movements in the correct way" [because Jim is not here!] Ha ha.

 

I am studying the manual every day and trying to make the movements in slow motion with eyes open and with eyes closed. I'm pretty sure that I'll order some videos next and then try to make the trip to Portland next year.

 

Thanks Jim for hanging with this forum!

 

Yeah, which is why you need to compare what your swing Feel is with what your body is objectively doing. The advantage of in person instruction is that after every swing or drill, I give you the objective feedback. You compare that to what you were just aware of happening in Feel. Then rinse and repeat. That is the gist of it. Trying to train smart so that your feel matches objective reality. It takes some time at first since your Feel will NOT match your body objectively. It needs to be trained.

 

But at least in Feel Channel you are at least dealing directly with objective reality. When using Internal Visual or Auditory, you are trapped in symbolic consciousness, ie you are dealing with fantasy - what you wish/hope your body to do - and not with reality.

 

When flying solo - like most of our students are doing who are using the e-book and the videos- you need to tape yourself once in a while when swinging at normal speeds to see what is truly happening. Or just use the mirror for real time feedback when doing the slower speed training.

 

The goal is to have a clear Feel sensation for the new move you are working on, at full speed. By holding that Feel sensation memory in your clear mind, you increase the chances of your subconscious mind "getting the message". You are using your Sensory System (feel) to tell your Motor System to do the move. The conscious mind Sensory System cannot - by its very nature - do the new move at normal speed, so it is "reminding" your Motor System (subconscious) to do the new move.

 

Wow, Jim . . . most of us ARE playing fantasy golf!

 

Going to read your feedback more than once and will print it out to have a reference.

 

Thank you!

 

The very first drills we do with new students are all about mental focus, awareness, the three sensory channels and especially how important developing your Feel Channel is for effective golf skills learning and practice.

 

Golfers who are using the traditional "swing thought" approach find these drills to be really eye-opening.

 

It boils down to this. Your conscious mind can only "uni-task" - it cannot multi-task. It is designed to be used in a narrow focus mode.

 

One focal point for the duration of one golf swing.

 

When you are "thinking" about your body/golf swing - you are either using auditory channel, "talking to yourself" about your swing, OR you are "picturing" your swing, or visual channel. What you are paying attention to is not real - words about your swing and visual images about your swing are symbols, or fantasy. When you focus is there - it cannot also be on your body motion in Feel Channel.

 

Most of my new students are making poor body motion in many different ways but are 100% not aware of their body making those poor motions. Part of the reason for that is that they are simply not paying attention to their body motion. They are under the spell of a popular belief system that you are supposed to be thinking about swing theory during the swing.

[poops]

Quick Question...

 

Why does it feel like the lead arm rotates (clockwise - from the player's perspective) during the backswing? Is it primarily to create room for the body to execute a good/full turn?

[Jim Waldron]

Quick Question...

 

Why does it feel like the lead arm rotates (clockwise - from the player's perspective) during the backswing? Is it primarily to create room for the body to execute a good/full turn?

 

Lead arm does not rotate clockwise until near the end of backswing in my swing model, and not a lot either. It happens same time as right arm finishes folding, the two tend to reinforce each other. No - it has nothing to do with creating space. That happens as a result of the 4-6 inch arm pushaway. And that rotation - while desirable from a shaft plane angle perspective - is not an important piece of the puzzle. Possible to play good golf with NO lead arm clockwise rotation on the backswing.

 

Some golfers conflate the pushaway with lead arm clockwise rotation. "Rotation" means lead arm humerous bone rotating in the shoulder socket - NOT the same thing as the 45 degree angle pushaway, that is 45 degree angle to the chest or shoulder girdle.

[mc3jack]

Quick Question...

 

Why does it feel like the lead arm rotates (clockwise - from the player's perspective) during the backswing? Is it primarily to create room for the body to execute a good/full turn?

 

Great answer from Jim . . . the second most important thing he teaches, after the light bulb goes off about the ASI, is how the spine tilts (sideways!) and something called Tilt Switch in transition.

 

Jim is there a video about this?

 

Arm rolling was a compensation I was doing for not knowing how to pivot properly. I was trying to 'twist on my spine axis' -- and having to compensate for the restriction in my turn by manipulating my arms.

 

When I see/feel rolling happening now, it's a signal to me that I'm not pivoting properly. Don't feel bad -- 99% of golfers don't do it right, and its complicated to learn. When I'm pivoting properly the rolling disappears naturally. It 'feels' natural to just the let the lead arm rise in front of my chest. Like Jim said, near the top the right arm bend causes the lead arm to roll just a little. In a natural movement, not a manipulation.

[Jim Waldron]

Quick Question...

 

Why does it feel like the lead arm rotates (clockwise - from the player's perspective) during the backswing? Is it primarily to create room for the body to execute a good/full turn?

 

Great answer from Jim . . . the second most important thing he teaches, after the light bulb goes off about the ASI, is how the spine tilts (sideways!) and something called Tilt Switch in transition.

 

Jim is there a video about this?

 

Arm rolling was a compensation I was doing for not knowing how to pivot properly. I was trying to 'twist on my spine axis' -- and having to compensate for the restriction in my turn by manipulating my arms.

 

When I see/feel rolling happening now, it's a signal to me that I'm not pivoting properly. Don't feel bad -- 99% of golfers don't do it right, and its complicated to learn. When I'm pivoting properly the rolling disappears naturally. It 'feels' natural to just the let the lead arm rise in front of my chest. Like Jim said, near the top the right arm bend causes the lead arm to roll just a little. In a natural movement, not a manipulation.

 

Arm roll is covered under Module Three: Advanced Arm Mechanics in my Great Shot! ballstriking video instruction series.

 

Tilt Illusion, Tilt Switch and related topics are covered in Module Four on Pivot Mechanics.

 

A lot of golfers roll the arms clockwise as a substitute for the Pivot - and I am not kidding. They got their "circles" mixed up!

 

Usually goes along with sucking the arms inside and around the body. They know the club must move in a circle so they move their arms in a circle to the inside of the body along with a rolling of the arms which rolls the face wide open.

[starsail85]

 

 

Jim

 

What plane do you like to see impact in, relative to the original shaft plane at address? How much higher, if atall do you see the hands being at impact as ideal?

[Jim Waldron]

Jim

 

What plane do you like to see impact in, relative to the original shaft plane at address? How much higher, if atall do you see the hands being at impact as ideal?

 

The Ideal would be exact same shaft angle as at Address, but really hard to do that - Hogan and Trevino did mostly with a conventional Address, and Moe Norman with his very upright plane at Address. But doing so would require a very late in the downswing lever angle release point, which requires very strong Core, fast Tempo, and some other things that make it basically impossible for almost every human golfer.

 

The earlier the lever angles start to release and the faster they release, the more momentum is pulling the shaft angle into a higher or steeper plane at impact.

 

So the practical matter is that the handle end will be a little higher at impact than Address, more so for longer clubs compared to shorter ones. You can check out the impact photos of current top Tour pros to see how much. Maybe 2 inches on a driver and a half inch or so on a wedge. Again - it depends on their Release style and how much right am angle they have at P6 and how fast it opens up, also how big a lead arm to chest angle at P6 or their SuperConnection point, maybe a little bit past P6 will result in a shaft angle at impact that is just a little steeper than Address.

 

Faster Tempos tend to delay the lever angle release point and speed of release so that is certainly a factor.

 

If your club lie angles fit you well, you will have the toe up a bit at Address, and then the sole ideally will be level at impact, taking away that toe up "space" you started with by impact due to shaft plane angle steepening.

[starsail85]

Jim

 

What plane do you like to see impact in, relative to the original shaft plane at address? How much higher, if atall do you see the hands being at impact as ideal?

 

The Ideal would be exact same shaft angle as at Address, but really hard to do that - Hogan and Trevino did mostly with a conventional Address, and Moe Norman with his very upright plane at Address. But doing so would require a very late in the downswing lever angle release point, which requires very strong Core, fast Tempo, and some other things that make it basically impossible for almost every human golfer.

 

The earlier the lever angles start to release and the faster they release, the more momentum is pulling the shaft angle into a higher or steeper plane at impact.

 

So the practical matter is that the handle end will be a little higher at impact than Address, more so for longer clubs compared to shorter ones. You can check out the impact photos of current top Tour pros to see how much. Maybe 2 inches on a driver and a half inch or so on a wedge. Again - it depends on their Release style and how much right am angle they have at P6 and how fast it opens up, also how big a lead arm to chest angle at P6 or their SuperConnection point, maybe a little bit past P6 will result in a shaft angle at impact that is just a little steeper than Address.

 

Faster Tempos tend to delay the lever angle release point and speed of release so that is certainly a factor.

 

If your club lie angles fit you well, you will have the toe up a bit at Address, and then the sole ideally will be level at impact, taking away that toe up "space" you started with by impact due to shaft plane angle steepening.

 

Thanks for that Jim

 

I'm sure some of the toe up at address is accommodated by shaft bend also?

 

I've found that by increasing flexion in transition I can now get the hands a lot lower and match the original shaft plane . This is up to about 75% speed as I am trying to learn the transition move starting slow and working up speed wise

 

I always thought when you mention using the "core" in the swing that it was mostly a rotational move , but actually using the core to increase flexion really uses those core muscles and has totally changed my release .... You prescribe increasing in flexion by about 1" if I remember correctly ? Or was that knee flexion ?