The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Thoughtful Hacker]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

 

The ASI is not a swing but an illusion of what the swing is so your question is unanswerable in the context you ask.

 

The question is absolutely answerable because even though, as you were so kind to point out, I worded it incorrectly, it was very obvious what I was asking.

 

In the swing Jim teaches, what starts the downswing?

 

I love the idea of pushing away at the 45 degree angle and have been practicing those positions. I'm not sure if the downswing should start with the hips, or the pulling of the arms down with the hips symotaneously, or if it starts with a pushing of the backfoot, ie from the ground up? Or none of the above?

 

Thanks to anyone who can answer!

 

Great transition questions!

Your arms MUST swing ACTIVELY during the backswing and downswing.

Your body pivot and turn MUST keep up with your arms swing. Another words the arms lead the body in the backswing.

In transition, your lower body/hip MUST lead your arms. However, your arms must catch up and LEAD your low body right before impact.

 

1. Backswing: Arms swing

2. Transition: Lower body pivot and shift.

3. Downswing: Arms swing

[rteach1]

Um, I don't think that's what Jim teaches.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Um, I don't think that's what Jim teaches.

 

I understand. What I said is based on my experience, swing, and the teachings of great instructors : John Jacob and Alex Morrison.

There is more than one way to swing!

[Jim Waldron]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

 

The ASI is not a swing but an illusion of what the swing is so your question is unanswerable in the context you ask.

 

The question is absolutely answerable because even though, as you were so kind to point out, I worded it incorrectly, it was very obvious what I was asking.

 

In the swing Jim teaches, what starts the downswing?

 

I love the idea of pushing away at the 45 degree angle and have been practicing those positions. I'm not sure if the downswing should start with the hips, or the pulling of the arms down with the hips symotaneously, or if it starts with a pushing of the backfoot, ie from the ground up? Or none of the above?

 

Thanks to anyone who can answer!

 

Great transition questions!

Your arms MUST swing ACTIVELY during the backswing and downswing.

Your body pivot and turn MUST keep up with your arms swing. Another words the arms lead the body in the backswing.

In transition, your lower body/hip MUST lead your arms. However, your arms must catch up and LEAD your low body right before impact.

 

1. Backswing: Arms swing

2. Transition: Lower body pivot and shift.

3. Downswing: Arms swing

 

Sorry, that is 100% not correct. But a common mis-perception due to the ASI!

[Thoughtful Hacker]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

 

The ASI is not a swing but an illusion of what the swing is so your question is unanswerable in the context you ask.

 

The question is absolutely answerable because even though, as you were so kind to point out, I worded it incorrectly, it was very obvious what I was asking.

 

In the swing Jim teaches, what starts the downswing?

 

I love the idea of pushing away at the 45 degree angle and have been practicing those positions. I'm not sure if the downswing should start with the hips, or the pulling of the arms down with the hips symotaneously, or if it starts with a pushing of the backfoot, ie from the ground up? Or none of the above?

 

Thanks to anyone who can answer!

 

Great transition questions!

Your arms MUST swing ACTIVELY during the backswing and downswing.

Your body pivot and turn MUST keep up with your arms swing. Another words the arms lead the body in the backswing.

In transition, your lower body/hip MUST lead your arms. However, your arms must catch up and LEAD your low body right before impact.

 

1. Backswing: Arms swing

2. Transition: Lower body pivot and shift.

3. Downswing: Arms swing

 

Sorry, that is 100% not correct. But a common mis-perception due to the ASI!

 

 

I might be wrong but here is a quote from John Jacobs "Practical Golf". All bold, capital, and italic words by him:

 

"Whatever your 'method', your arms must SWING

Why arms to start? "Surely," I can imagine readers saying, "the golf swing starts in the hands, or the feet, or the left shoulder."

 

Undoubtedly it does, for various players at various times, depending on how they are swinging and how they are adjusting to stay in their own particular groove. But we are not concerned now with starts or middles or stops. We are concerned primarily with actions -- fundamental actions. And the fundamental action in the golf swing is without a shadow of doubt the swinging of the arms. If you are to play well, you must swing them freely."

 

Also according to John Jacob the movement of the arms -- their free, fast, flailing action on the correct plane -- is an absolute fundamental of good golf. Your "Arms Swing Illusion" happens when you swing the arms too fast and leave the body behind (i.e. "disconnected" arms swing) or when you drag the "dead" arms with your pivot (i.e. "connected" arms).

[GoStars]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

[mc3jack]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

Ohhhh man. #1 thing about golf is Feel is almost never Real. Except when we flush one, right?

 

There *are* some elements necessary to Feel like a golf *swing* is happening when we're learning a pivot-operated technique. Jim goes into this with advanced instruction such as Dynamic Balance.

 

Before we understood as much as we do now about pivot mechanics, the great teachers used the Feel of swinging arms and clubhead to help people intuitively move their bodies into something approximating a useable pivot and release. Let's call this Outside-In teaching. It worked for a few, with a huge downside for others -- the tendency for arm and hand action to take over under pressure. Look at old golf books and magazines...they're filled with attempts to help people 'let the arms drop' and 'swing the handle' and so forth. Loads of band-aids for Outside-In perceptions. Swing Plane stuff. Then Outside-In layered onto 2D camera work and lines on screens.

 

We're getting beyond that now.

 

Jim and other modern teachers are working Inside-Out. With correct body pressures, sequencing, set up, balance, etc., the pivot-operated 'swing' does indeed move the arms in a way that can still Feel like they are being swung by the torso and shoulder rotation. Jim's concept of outward-and-upward arms in relation to the chest does indeed feel like a Swing up to the top if performed with a correct pivot. Jim's concept of super-connection and downward (outward) acceleration into impact does Feel like swing, especially with lag pressure from the clubhead affecting the Feel in the hands.

 

The modern, pivot-controlled 'swing' has virtually nothing to do with 'swinging the arms,' other than causing them to move in a way that Feels like a rhythmic swing. Believing the Feel is actually Real introduces a bunch of fails related to the Arm Swing Illusion.

 

If you search the word "pendulum" in this topic (box at top of page) you'll find some posts discussing the acceleration-decel-acceleration of the hand-arms that helps create the Feel of swinging . . .

[starsail85]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

Ohhhh man. #1 thing about golf is Feel is almost never Real. Except when we flush one, right?

 

There *are* some elements necessary to Feel like a golf *swing* is happening when we're learning a pivot-operated technique. Jim goes into this with advanced instruction such as Dynamic Balance.

 

Before we understood as much as we do now about pivot mechanics, the great teachers used the Feel of swinging arms and clubhead to help people intuitively move their bodies into something approximating a useable pivot and release. Let's call this Outside-In teaching. It worked for a few, with a huge downside for others -- the tendency for arm and hand action to take over under pressure. Look at old golf books and magazines...they're filled with attempts to help people 'let the arms drop' and 'swing the handle' and so forth. Loads of band-aids for Outside-In perceptions. Swing Plane stuff. Then Outside-In layered onto 2D camera work and lines on screens.

 

We're getting beyond that now.

 

Jim and other modern teachers are working Inside-Out. With correct body pressures, sequencing, set up, balance, etc., the pivot-operated 'swing' does indeed move the arms in a way that can still Feel like they are being swung by the torso and shoulder rotation. Jim's concept of outward-and-upward arms in relation to the chest does indeed feel like a Swing up to the top if performed with a correct pivot. Jim's concept of super-connection and downward (outward) acceleration into impact does Feel like swing, especially with lag pressure from the clubhead affecting the Feel in the hands.

 

The modern, pivot-controlled 'swing' has virtually nothing to do with 'swinging the arms,' other than causing them to move in a way that Feels like a rhythmic swing. Believing the Feel is actually Real introduces a bunch of fails related to the Arm Swing Illusion.

 

If you search the word "pendulum" in this topic (box at top of page) you'll find some posts discussing the acceleration-decel-acceleration of the hand-arms that helps create the Feel of swinging . . .

 

Care to educate me as to what lag pressure is? Is it pressure from the shaft on the right index finger around p6 onwards? I feel this on my best pitches and also when I make a short hard swing

[mc3jack]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

Ohhhh man. #1 thing about golf is Feel is almost never Real. Except when we flush one, right?

 

There *are* some elements necessary to Feel like a golf *swing* is happening when we're learning a pivot-operated technique. Jim goes into this with advanced instruction such as Dynamic Balance.

 

Before we understood as much as we do now about pivot mechanics, the great teachers used the Feel of swinging arms and clubhead to help people intuitively move their bodies into something approximating a useable pivot and release. Let's call this Outside-In teaching. It worked for a few, with a huge downside for others -- the tendency for arm and hand action to take over under pressure. Look at old golf books and magazines...they're filled with attempts to help people 'let the arms drop' and 'swing the handle' and so forth. Loads of band-aids for Outside-In perceptions. Swing Plane stuff. Then Outside-In layered onto 2D camera work and lines on screens.

 

We're getting beyond that now.

 

Jim and other modern teachers are working Inside-Out. With correct body pressures, sequencing, set up, balance, etc., the pivot-operated 'swing' does indeed move the arms in a way that can still Feel like they are being swung by the torso and shoulder rotation. Jim's concept of outward-and-upward arms in relation to the chest does indeed feel like a Swing up to the top if performed with a correct pivot. Jim's concept of super-connection and downward (outward) acceleration into impact does Feel like swing, especially with lag pressure from the clubhead affecting the Feel in the hands.

 

The modern, pivot-controlled 'swing' has virtually nothing to do with 'swinging the arms,' other than causing them to move in a way that Feels like a rhythmic swing. Believing the Feel is actually Real introduces a bunch of fails related to the Arm Swing Illusion.

 

If you search the word "pendulum" in this topic (box at top of page) you'll find some posts discussing the acceleration-decel-acceleration of the hand-arms that helps create the Feel of swinging . . .

 

Care to educate me as to what lag pressure is? Is it pressure from the shaft on the right index finger around p6 onwards? I feel this on my best pitches and also when I make a short hard swing

 

Yup. Jim has more precise descriptions in his instruction, but yeah. A friend of Jim's, John "Lag" Erickson, takes lag pressure to mythological levels, even claiming you can feel 'lag' in the putting stroke. Jim explains the feeling in other ways so guys don't get hung up on the misconception of "holding the lag" and so forth.

[Jim Waldron]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

100% incorrect. You obviously have no idea what the ASI is and what it's ramifications for golf instruction are all about. You are hung up on word-based swing theory, and all of its many "golf swing metaphysics" contradictions. Chock full of false premises and Fallacy of the Extremes based conclusions.

[Jim Waldron]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

Ohhhh man. #1 thing about golf is Feel is almost never Real. Except when we flush one, right?

 

There *are* some elements necessary to Feel like a golf *swing* is happening when we're learning a pivot-operated technique. Jim goes into this with advanced instruction such as Dynamic Balance.

 

Before we understood as much as we do now about pivot mechanics, the great teachers used the Feel of swinging arms and clubhead to help people intuitively move their bodies into something approximating a useable pivot and release. Let's call this Outside-In teaching. It worked for a few, with a huge downside for others -- the tendency for arm and hand action to take over under pressure. Look at old golf books and magazines...they're filled with attempts to help people 'let the arms drop' and 'swing the handle' and so forth. Loads of band-aids for Outside-In perceptions. Swing Plane stuff. Then Outside-In layered onto 2D camera work and lines on screens.

 

We're getting beyond that now.

 

Jim and other modern teachers are working Inside-Out. With correct body pressures, sequencing, set up, balance, etc., the pivot-operated 'swing' does indeed move the arms in a way that can still Feel like they are being swung by the torso and shoulder rotation. Jim's concept of outward-and-upward arms in relation to the chest does indeed feel like a Swing up to the top if performed with a correct pivot. Jim's concept of super-connection and downward (outward) acceleration into impact does Feel like swing, especially with lag pressure from the clubhead affecting the Feel in the hands.

 

The modern, pivot-controlled 'swing' has virtually nothing to do with 'swinging the arms,' other than causing them to move in a way that Feels like a rhythmic swing. Believing the Feel is actually Real introduces a bunch of fails related to the Arm Swing Illusion.

 

If you search the word "pendulum" in this topic (box at top of page) you'll find some posts discussing the acceleration-decel-acceleration of the hand-arms that helps create the Feel of swinging . . .

 

Excellent post! The ASI does NOT in any way mean a swing where the arms are not moved freely and very fast. The opposite in fact. It means understanding the clear biomechanical differrence between independent arm motion - arms moving themselves - and dependent arm motion, arms moved by the Pivot. The word "swing" - the way it has been used in golf teaching for the past 500 years - has a mostly 2D bias to it, and well over 99% of golfers will understand it to mean a circular 2D motion caused by the arm muscles moving the arms. An extremely toxic concept to have in your mind when attempting to make a golf motion.

[Jim Waldron]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

Ohhhh man. #1 thing about golf is Feel is almost never Real. Except when we flush one, right?

 

There *are* some elements necessary to Feel like a golf *swing* is happening when we're learning a pivot-operated technique. Jim goes into this with advanced instruction such as Dynamic Balance.

 

Before we understood as much as we do now about pivot mechanics, the great teachers used the Feel of swinging arms and clubhead to help people intuitively move their bodies into something approximating a useable pivot and release. Let's call this Outside-In teaching. It worked for a few, with a huge downside for others -- the tendency for arm and hand action to take over under pressure. Look at old golf books and magazines...they're filled with attempts to help people 'let the arms drop' and 'swing the handle' and so forth. Loads of band-aids for Outside-In perceptions. Swing Plane stuff. Then Outside-In layered onto 2D camera work and lines on screens.

 

We're getting beyond that now.

 

Jim and other modern teachers are working Inside-Out. With correct body pressures, sequencing, set up, balance, etc., the pivot-operated 'swing' does indeed move the arms in a way that can still Feel like they are being swung by the torso and shoulder rotation. Jim's concept of outward-and-upward arms in relation to the chest does indeed feel like a Swing up to the top if performed with a correct pivot. Jim's concept of super-connection and downward (outward) acceleration into impact does Feel like swing, especially with lag pressure from the clubhead affecting the Feel in the hands.

 

The modern, pivot-controlled 'swing' has virtually nothing to do with 'swinging the arms,' other than causing them to move in a way that Feels like a rhythmic swing. Believing the Feel is actually Real introduces a bunch of fails related to the Arm Swing Illusion.

 

If you search the word "pendulum" in this topic (box at top of page) you'll find some posts discussing the acceleration-decel-acceleration of the hand-arms that helps create the Feel of swinging . . .

 

Care to educate me as to what lag pressure is? Is it pressure from the shaft on the right index finger around p6 onwards? I feel this on my best pitches and also when I make a short hard swing

 

Lagpressure is inertia acting on the club shaft and on the golfer's body when you have your forward swing sequencing correct. And yes - it is indeed possible to learn how to feel it, including in your right index finger. You can also feel it where your upper arms connect to your pecs, in both hands, and in both feet. You will feel it in right index finger from start of Transition to P6 most intensely. It can be used as one way to trigger your Pivot Thrust and thus wrist c0ck Release point.

[mc3jack]

The ASI does NOT in any way mean a swing where the arms are not moved freely and very fast. The opposite in fact. It means:

 

Understanding the clear biomechanical difference between independent arm motion - arms moving themselves - and dependent arm motion, arms moved by the Pivot.

 

 

GOLD!!!

[mc3jack]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

Ohhhh man. #1 thing about golf is Feel is almost never Real. Except when we flush one, right?

 

There *are* some elements necessary to Feel like a golf *swing* is happening when we're learning a pivot-operated technique. Jim goes into this with advanced instruction such as Dynamic Balance.

 

Before we understood as much as we do now about pivot mechanics, the great teachers used the Feel of swinging arms and clubhead to help people intuitively move their bodies into something approximating a useable pivot and release. Let's call this Outside-In teaching. It worked for a few, with a huge downside for others -- the tendency for arm and hand action to take over under pressure. Look at old golf books and magazines...they're filled with attempts to help people 'let the arms drop' and 'swing the handle' and so forth. Loads of band-aids for Outside-In perceptions. Swing Plane stuff. Then Outside-In layered onto 2D camera work and lines on screens.

 

We're getting beyond that now.

 

Jim and other modern teachers are working Inside-Out. With correct body pressures, sequencing, set up, balance, etc., the pivot-operated 'swing' does indeed move the arms in a way that can still Feel like they are being swung by the torso and shoulder rotation. Jim's concept of outward-and-upward arms in relation to the chest does indeed feel like a Swing up to the top if performed with a correct pivot. Jim's concept of super-connection and downward (outward) acceleration into impact does Feel like swing, especially with lag pressure from the clubhead affecting the Feel in the hands.

 

The modern, pivot-controlled 'swing' has virtually nothing to do with 'swinging the arms,' other than causing them to move in a way that Feels like a rhythmic swing. Believing the Feel is actually Real introduces a bunch of fails related to the Arm Swing Illusion.

 

If you search the word "pendulum" in this topic (box at top of page) you'll find some posts discussing the acceleration-decel-acceleration of the hand-arms that helps create the Feel of swinging . . .

 

Care to educate me as to what lag pressure is? Is it pressure from the shaft on the right index finger around p6 onwards? I feel this on my best pitches and also when I make a short hard swing

 

Lagpressure is inertia acting on the club shaft and on the golfer's body when you have your forward swing sequencing correct. And yes - it is indeed possible to learn how to feel it, including in your right index finger. You can also feel it where your upper arms connect to your pecs, in both hands, and in both feet. You will feel it in right index finger from start of Transition to P6 most intensely. It can be used as one way to trigger your Pivot Thrust and thus wrist c0ck Release point.

 

Boom, you just described how (what I call) a Holistic Swing feels. Instead of thinking about independent body parts and motions, it's sort of 'unthinking' in the realm of balance, rhythm, gravity and inertia and I feel it in my whole body. Golf is pure joy when I can get this going.

 

Harder to feel with low swing weight clubs, by the way. I try to warm up with the higher swing weight wedges to find the feeling.

[David69]

This thread is full of Arm Swing Confusion.

[Redpro]

I just got the Great Shot! printed training manual and read the first 15 pages . . . pretty much the clearest explanation regarding the why and how of learning new mechanics I've come across.

 

I particularly loved the equation, mind control = body control = club control = impact control = ball flight control = target control = score control.

 

I looked at all the videos available and read "most" of this thread and started using the motions described in them. First was a simple push away and pivot, then I just turned in a vortex as described and was slinging well-struck shots at my selected targets. Pretty cool.

 

I only have one real concrete "thought" and that's "hit it with my pivot".

 

So far so good.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

100% incorrect. You obviously have no idea what the ASI is and what it's ramifications for golf instruction are all about. You are hung up on word-based swing theory, and all of its many "golf swing metaphysics" contradictions. Chock full of false premises and Fallacy of the Extremes based conclusions.

 

As I said I might be 100% incorrect. But not Mr. John Jacob:

 

"Whatever your 'method', your arms must SWING

Why arms to start? "Surely," I can imagine readers saying, "the golf swing starts in the hands, or the feet, or the left shoulder."

 

Undoubtedly it does, for various players at various times, depending on how they are swinging and how they are adjusting to stay in their own particular groove. But we are not concerned now with starts or middles or stops. We are concerned primarily with actions -- fundamental actions. And the fundamental action in the golf swing is without a shadow of doubt the swinging of the arms. If you are to play well, you must swing them freely."

 

[Jim Waldron]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

100% incorrect. You obviously have no idea what the ASI is and what it's ramifications for golf instruction are all about. You are hung up on word-based swing theory, and all of its many "golf swing metaphysics" contradictions. Chock full of false premises and Fallacy of the Extremes based conclusions.

 

As I said I might be 100% incorrect. But not Mr. John Jacob:

 

"Whatever your 'method', your arms must SWING

Why arms to start? "Surely," I can imagine readers saying, "the golf swing starts in the hands, or the feet, or the left shoulder."

 

Undoubtedly it does, for various players at various times, depending on how they are swinging and how they are adjusting to stay in their own particular groove. But we are not concerned now with starts or middles or stops. We are concerned primarily with actions -- fundamental actions. And the fundamental action in the golf swing is without a shadow of doubt the swinging of the arms. If you are to play well, you must swing them freely."

 

 

Typical word-based instructional advice - about as "old school" as one could possibly get. Maybe a precise definition of what "swing the arms" means? And I mean really precise. Like what muscles are responsible? Jacobs was not an instructor dedicated to an objective description of what happens. He is describing his own subjective experience - which is the real problem with traditional teaching. "Swing the arms" is exactly what the ASI shows to be a complete fallacy. And millions of golfers over the years have been caught in that trap, and only gotten worse.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

The Arm Swing Illusion (ASI) refers to how we tend to see the swing in two dimensions rather than three. We tend to think our arms are swinging across our chest when they do not (at least not until after impact.

 

If you SWING your arms and at the same time turn your shoulders perpendicular to your spine your swing will be ok. The ASI side effect happens when you swing your arms but leaving your shoulders and torso behind.

 

Most average golfers are not swinging their arms freely because of faulty fundamentals: bad grip, posture, set up, lots of tension, and swing misconceptions!

 

100% incorrect. You obviously have no idea what the ASI is and what it's ramifications for golf instruction are all about. You are hung up on word-based swing theory, and all of its many "golf swing metaphysics" contradictions. Chock full of false premises and Fallacy of the Extremes based conclusions.

 

As I said I might be 100% incorrect. But not Mr. John Jacob:

 

"Whatever your 'method', your arms must SWING

Why arms to start? "Surely," I can imagine readers saying, "the golf swing starts in the hands, or the feet, or the left shoulder."

 

Undoubtedly it does, for various players at various times, depending on how they are swinging and how they are adjusting to stay in their own particular groove. But we are not concerned now with starts or middles or stops. We are concerned primarily with actions -- fundamental actions. And the fundamental action in the golf swing is without a shadow of doubt the swinging of the arms. If you are to play well, you must swing them freely."

 

 

Typical word-based instructional advice - about as "old school" as one could possibly get. Maybe a precise definition of what "swing the arms" means? And I mean really precise. Like what muscles are responsible? Jacobs was not an instructor dedicated to an objective description of what happens. He is describing his own subjective experience - which is the real problem with traditional teaching. "Swing the arms" is exactly what the ASI shows to be a complete fallacy. And millions of golfers over the years have been caught in that trap, and only gotten worse.

 

The club can be thought as an extension of the left arm. You swing the arms and the club in one motion and let the body follow and support that motion. It is that simple. No magic move! No illusion! No confusion!

There are thousand of videos showing pros swinging their arms on YouTube. You don't need science and biomechanics to swing your arms. Just a good pair of eyes to see their set up and how they swing their arms. Which muscles group who knows? Even the great Ben Hogan didn't know much about the anatomy and the body's hundreds of muscle group.

[mc3jack]

"The club can be thought as an extension of the left arm. You swing the arms and the club in one motion and let the body follow and support that motion. It is that simple. No magic move! No illusion! No confusion!

There are thousand of videos showing pros swinging their arms on YouTube. You don't need science and biomechanics to swing your arms. Just a good pair of eyes to see their set up and how they swing their arms. Which muscles group who knows? Even the great Ben Hogan didn't know much about the anatomy and the body's hundreds of muscle group." -- Thoughtful Hacker

 

 

[Thoughtful Hacker]

One can swing their arms back literally in millions of ways. You will have a hard time finding two pros with exactly the same swing plane. There are infinite possible swing planes. Take one that is most natural and comfortable to you. What backswing plane Jim Furyke is on?

But "Whatever your "method", you must swing your arms freely!"

[Silky]

One can swing their arms back literally in millions of ways. You will have a hard time finding two pros with exactly the same swing plane. There are infinite possible swing planes. Take one that is most natural and comfortable to you. What backswing plane Jim Furyke is on?

But "Whatever your "method", you must swing your arms freely!"

 

This is "the Arm Swing Delusion".

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

[Jim Waldron]

I just got the Great Shot! printed training manual and read the first 15 pages . . . pretty much the clearest explanation regarding the why and how of learning new mechanics I've come across.

 

I particularly loved the equation, mind control = body control = club control = impact control = ball flight control = target control = score control.

 

I looked at all the videos available and read "most" of this thread and started using the motions described in them. First was a simple push away and pivot, then I just turned in a vortex as described and was slinging well-struck shots at my selected targets. Pretty cool.

 

I only have one real concrete "thought" and that's "hit it with my pivot".

 

So far so good.

 

Thanks for your feedback and great to hear you are seeing some progress in your ballstriking!

 

I like the "hit it with the pivot" image, especially so if you can learn how to access a clear feeling for how that is done - as opposed to a visual image or a word command.

[Jim Waldron]

Just finished up seven days in a row in Portland of small group public and one on one Private Custom golf schools. Had some very interesting coaching learning experiences.

 

I am seeing more and more a lot of golfers who are struggling with "information overload" and the conflation of swing theory with swing execution. What I call "Contamination". The notion that golf is all about "fixing your swing" and not at all about hitting golf shots and scoring.

 

And a related issue, which is a profound lack of understanding about how the mind/body actually learns movement pattern skills like the golf swing.

[stashtv]

Just want to chime in on this illusion idea...

 

I've been going to a local (to Los Angeles) golf instruction/fitness place since late June. Since then, I'be spent a lot of time with one instructor who has both helped reshape my setup, fitness and ideas for my hands/motion for the backswing and downswing. My gains have been 20-30+ yards with instruction, but the most recent breakthrough have been utilizing ideas presented within the ideas of the arm swing illusion.

 

With the most recent session, the instruction (a different one from the previous sessions) told me: just push your left arm (righty golfer) up+out as far as you can -- don't even think about bring it around my body. While he didn't mention the arm swing illusion, the concepts he talked about immediately reminded of the Youtube vid I saw a few years ago. Once I "pushed" my arm upwards and out away from me, the only thing I needed to do was turn my shoulders as fast as possible. Because of these ideas, I hit some of the best shots on the range and the first round immediately after practice. I'm not cured of all my faults (by far), but learning to trust this new "feel" has yielded some very impressive consistency with ball striking that I didn't believe possible.

[Jim Waldron]

Just want to chime in on this illusion idea...

 

I've been going to a local (to Los Angeles) golf instruction/fitness place since late June. Since then, I'be spent a lot of time with one instructor who has both helped reshape my setup, fitness and ideas for my hands/motion for the backswing and downswing. My gains have been 20-30+ yards with instruction, but the most recent breakthrough have been utilizing ideas presented within the ideas of the arm swing illusion.

 

With the most recent session, the instruction (a different one from the previous sessions) told me: just push your left arm (righty golfer) up+out as far as you can -- don't even think about bring it around my body. While he didn't mention the arm swing illusion, the concepts he talked about immediately reminded of the Youtube vid I saw a few years ago. Once I "pushed" my arm upwards and out away from me, the only thing I needed to do was turn my shoulders as fast as possible. Because of these ideas, I hit some of the best shots on the range and the first round immediately after practice. I'm not cured of all my faults (by far), but learning to trust this new "feel" has yielded some very impressive consistency with ball striking that I didn't believe possible.

 

Pretty cool insights on the ASI concept!

 

Yes - the arms don't go "around the body" - they go around your "face", or more accurately, your "line of sight" due to the fact that in golf we need to keep our head steady. Most of the time as we go about our daily lives, our face/line of sight is pointing in the same direction as our chest or mid-line of our torso. Except in the golf swing. This is one of the root causes of the ASI.

[mc3jack]

Here is a golf swing big picture in a simple no nonsense language by one of the greatest swing instructors of all times:

 

 

 

 

That's neat. How about you start your own WRX thread about your swing "thoughts?" Because this one is about Jim's ideas, not yours, nor whether or not you agree with his ideas.

[mc3jack]

Just want to chime in on this illusion idea...

 

I've been going to a local (to Los Angeles) golf instruction/fitness place since late June. Since then, I'be spent a lot of time with one instructor who has both helped reshape my setup, fitness and ideas for my hands/motion for the backswing and downswing. My gains have been 20-30+ yards with instruction, but the most recent breakthrough have been utilizing ideas presented within the ideas of the arm swing illusion.

 

With the most recent session, the instruction (a different one from the previous sessions) told me: just push your left arm (righty golfer) up+out as far as you can -- don't even think about bring it around my body. While he didn't mention the arm swing illusion, the concepts he talked about immediately reminded of the Youtube vid I saw a few years ago. Once I "pushed" my arm upwards and out away from me, the only thing I needed to do was turn my shoulders as fast as possible. Because of these ideas, I hit some of the best shots on the range and the first round immediately after practice. I'm not cured of all my faults (by far), but learning to trust this new "feel" has yielded some very impressive consistency with ball striking that I didn't believe possible.

 

Pretty cool insights on the ASI concept!

 

Yes - the arms don't go "around the body" - they go around your "face", or more accurately, your "line of sight" due to the fact that in golf we need to keep our head steady. Most of the time as we go about our daily lives, our face/line of sight is pointing in the same direction as our chest or mid-line of our torso. Except in the golf swing. This is one of the root causes of the ASI.

 

So awesome. I was just watching a pro baseball coach on TV show a woman sportscaster how to 'not throw like a girl.' Guess what? He demonstrated that poor throwers intuitively square and stop their chests where the thrower is facing, then fling their throwing arms, often weakly and inaccurately.

 

He showed her how to pivot and rotate her shoulders/chest to hurl the ball. Bingo. Release occurred when the chest was 30-45 degrees turned *past* facing the target. While the eyes remained target-faced. Here's a video of throwing sports showing sequencing and shoulder rotation just for fun.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=LBFoxpVLpjk