The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

Module 4 The Pivot

 

Trailer

 

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Module Four video on Pivot Mechanics is available for download here: http://www.balancepointgolf.com/index.php/pro-shop/golf-videos

[Jim Waldron]

Jim, I've been re-watching the pivot video in segments and although most of this isn't new to me since I've had several Skype lessons with you, it is really helping to make the material sink in. You best video yet by far!

 

The deconstruction of what the body actually does instead of trying to make your body behave like an automobile axle is really hitting home. I'm seeing through a lot of illusions, even ones you don't cover in the video!! For example, I've always had a problem with my head rotating towards the target on the downswing. I just realized it's because it's an illusion that the head stays still. If you isolate the head movement without moving your body, it actually rotates over your left shoulder on the backswing, then rapidly rotates right over your right shoulder on the downswing. The net effect visually is that it stays still. I've always tried to keep the head still which results in it turning with my shoulders on the downswing.

 

Glad you liked it. It is my second favorite after Module Two on the ASI.

[chigolfer1]

Jim, I posted this in the GG thread and I was just wondering your take on my thoughts about the proper hip movement and the fact there is a physiologically chain reaction that it causes more than just being sort of the "right thing to do" or however you want to put it. (given the focus on the pivot in your thread right now, I thought this would be on topic)

 

Is this pivot not very related to what Kelvin is trying to say here in a ridiculously long and confusing post? Why when I took a lesson and tried to consciously do the elbow move and not think about my hips, my swing was an early extension OTT disaster. Then, all I thought about were my hips and the swing almost looked like a "real swing" with the right elbow move seemingly happening automatically. Pay attention to the middle of this article where I really think it gets to the crux of the matter: Fascia Connections and the Spiral Line/Right Elbow Move. Is the proper hip movement/pivot setting up the whole swing properly and letting the rest of the swing happen almost "automatically?" I know on here we have sort of gone away from thinking about the hips but what if the proper movement of the hips is more than just the "right thing to do," if you know what I mean, but really creates a true physiologically full body chain reaction due to these connections. Also, if you've never used your hips before, maybe you have to consciously think about them more vs. someone who is truly athletic with a baseball background who is already subconsciously using his hips a lot more than a moderately athletic guy that has traditionally never used his hips properly in baseball or golf and been completely upper body dominant. (me in other words).

 

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

[Jim Waldron]

Jim, I posted this in the GG thread and I was just wondering your take on my thoughts about the proper hip movement and the fact there is a physiologically chain reaction that it causes more than just being sort of the "right thing to do" or however you want to put it. (given the focus on the pivot in your thread right now, I thought this would be on topic)

 

Is this pivot not very related to what Kelvin is trying to say here in a ridiculously long and confusing post? Why when I took a lesson and tried to consciously do the elbow move and not think about my hips, my swing was an early extension OTT disaster. Then, all I thought about were my hips and the swing almost looked like a "real swing" with the right elbow move seemingly happening automatically. Pay attention to the middle of this article where I really think it gets to the crux of the matter: Fascia Connections and the Spiral Line/Right Elbow Move. Is the proper hip movement/pivot setting up the whole swing properly and letting the rest of the swing happen almost "automatically?" I know on here we have sort of gone away from thinking about the hips but what if the proper movement of the hips is more than just the "right thing to do," if you know what I mean, but really creates a true physiologically full body chain reaction due to these connections. Also, if you've never used your hips before, maybe you have to consciously think about them more vs. someone who is truly athletic with a baseball background who is already subconsciously using his hips a lot more than a moderately athletic guy that has traditionally never used his hips properly in baseball or golf and been completely upper body dominant. (me in other words).

 

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

 

The answer, like most golf swing issues, is a bit of yes and a bit of no and a lot of "it depends". Yes - there is a chain or physical link from the ground up and the inside to out, or a Wave of dynamic energy created by feet to ground's resistance and the deep inside muscles along the spine and the pelvic floor. No it does not happen "automatically", ie you still have to train other body parts to behave properly, even when your hips are working right.

 

Yes on your baseball analogy. Golfers who played sports like baseball and hockey have that advantage of understanding the basic athletic throwing motion sequence, from the ground up.

 

Hogan talks about the "unbroken thrust" from start of downswing with left hip rotate and shift all the way to impact. Your left hip motion creates a pulling force throughout the body segments all the way to the clubhead. I like the Wave concept going up your left side during Release along with a Vortex shape motion to the left.

[AJStatham]

Hey Jim,

 

I've been reading these forums for quite some time, but felt compelled to register in order to thank you for the exceedingly valuable information you've so graciously provided in this thread.

 

I'm not exaggerating when I say understanding the ASI almost immediately lowered my scores from previously middle to recent low 80s. I'll likely be purchasing one of your modules soon as I'm confident that if this threat alone has had such a tremendous impact on consistency, the videos will prove equally valuable. Thanks again!

 

Best,

 

AJ

[chigolfer1]

Jim, I posted this in the GG thread and I was just wondering your take on my thoughts about the proper hip movement and the fact there is a physiologically chain reaction that it causes more than just being sort of the "right thing to do" or however you want to put it. (given the focus on the pivot in your thread right now, I thought this would be on topic)

 

Is this pivot not very related to what Kelvin is trying to say here in a ridiculously long and confusing post? Why when I took a lesson and tried to consciously do the elbow move and not think about my hips, my swing was an early extension OTT disaster. Then, all I thought about were my hips and the swing almost looked like a "real swing" with the right elbow move seemingly happening automatically. Pay attention to the middle of this article where I really think it gets to the crux of the matter: Fascia Connections and the Spiral Line/Right Elbow Move. Is the proper hip movement/pivot setting up the whole swing properly and letting the rest of the swing happen almost "automatically?" I know on here we have sort of gone away from thinking about the hips but what if the proper movement of the hips is more than just the "right thing to do," if you know what I mean, but really creates a true physiologically full body chain reaction due to these connections. Also, if you've never used your hips before, maybe you have to consciously think about them more vs. someone who is truly athletic with a baseball background who is already subconsciously using his hips a lot more than a moderately athletic guy that has traditionally never used his hips properly in baseball or golf and been completely upper body dominant. (me in other words).

 

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

 

The answer, like most golf swing issues, is a bit of yes and a bit of no and a lot of "it depends". Yes - there is a chain or physical link from the ground up and the inside to out, or a Wave of dynamic energy created by feet to ground's resistance and the deep inside muscles along the spine and the pelvic floor. No it does not happen "automatically", ie you still have to train other body parts to behave properly, even when your hips are working right.

 

Yes on your baseball analogy. Golfers who played sports like baseball and hockey have that advantage of understanding the basic athletic throwing motion sequence, from the ground up.

 

Hogan talks about the "unbroken thrust" from start of downswing with left hip rotate and shift all the way to impact. Your left hip motion creates a pulling force throughout the body segments all the way to the clubhead. I like the Wave concept going up your left side during Release along with a Vortex shape motion to the left.

 

 

Thanks Jim. What are your thoughts on "consciously" pivoting the hips vs. it sort of happening as a reaction by your body? I tried something today where my only swing thought was my hips pivoting in a GG/Kelvin manner. I have taken plenty of lessons from good instructors and know my setup and backswing are more than adequate. It's everything after that I just can't figure out how to go about. Anyway, when I did this, I pretended like I didn't even care what happened with my arms or like I wasn't really swinging at the ball, just pivoting my hips, but somehow my arms came through the hitting zone before I even knew what happened.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim, I posted this in the GG thread and I was just wondering your take on my thoughts about the proper hip movement and the fact there is a physiologically chain reaction that it causes more than just being sort of the "right thing to do" or however you want to put it. (given the focus on the pivot in your thread right now, I thought this would be on topic)

 

Is this pivot not very related to what Kelvin is trying to say here in a ridiculously long and confusing post? Why when I took a lesson and tried to consciously do the elbow move and not think about my hips, my swing was an early extension OTT disaster. Then, all I thought about were my hips and the swing almost looked like a "real swing" with the right elbow move seemingly happening automatically. Pay attention to the middle of this article where I really think it gets to the crux of the matter: Fascia Connections and the Spiral Line/Right Elbow Move. Is the proper hip movement/pivot setting up the whole swing properly and letting the rest of the swing happen almost "automatically?" I know on here we have sort of gone away from thinking about the hips but what if the proper movement of the hips is more than just the "right thing to do," if you know what I mean, but really creates a true physiologically full body chain reaction due to these connections. Also, if you've never used your hips before, maybe you have to consciously think about them more vs. someone who is truly athletic with a baseball background who is already subconsciously using his hips a lot more than a moderately athletic guy that has traditionally never used his hips properly in baseball or golf and been completely upper body dominant. (me in other words).

 

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

 

The answer, like most golf swing issues, is a bit of yes and a bit of no and a lot of "it depends". Yes - there is a chain or physical link from the ground up and the inside to out, or a Wave of dynamic energy created by feet to ground's resistance and the deep inside muscles along the spine and the pelvic floor. No it does not happen "automatically", ie you still have to train other body parts to behave properly, even when your hips are working right.

 

Yes on your baseball analogy. Golfers who played sports like baseball and hockey have that advantage of understanding the basic athletic throwing motion sequence, from the ground up.

 

Hogan talks about the "unbroken thrust" from start of downswing with left hip rotate and shift all the way to impact. Your left hip motion creates a pulling force throughout the body segments all the way to the clubhead. I like the Wave concept going up your left side during Release along with a Vortex shape motion to the left.

 

 

Thanks Jim. What are your thoughts on "consciously" pivoting the hips vs. it sort of happening as a reaction by your body? I tried something today where my only swing thought was my hips pivoting in a GG/Kelvin manner. I have taken plenty of lessons from good instructors and know my setup and backswing are more than adequate. It's everything after that I just can't figure out how to go about. Anyway, when I did this, I pretended like I didn't even care what happened with my arms or like I wasn't really swinging at the ball, just pivoting my hips, but somehow my arms came through the hitting zone before I even knew what happened.

I like what you said at the end - "my arms came through before I even knew what happened".

 

You always have to consciously "do" the new move you are learning in the early and intermediate stages of learning. Which is why I advocate for ONLY doing so in slow motion first, and then later on at half speed. You use a mirror for real-time visual feedback so that you know that you are in fact doing the new move correctly. Then you close your eyes and feel a sensation linked to the new motion.

 

Repeat hundreds of times, rinse and repeat....

 

Then graduate to half speed - same process..

 

You will end up at the end of each stage with a precise feel-based "image" of what it feels like to do the new move.

 

Later on, at full speed, you can "call up" the memory of that feeling before you start your swing....and most of the ime (80% of more often) your subconscious will react to that feel memory by instructing your body how to carry out the new move. You can then feel the new move taking place (your Feedback System) or in the case of you NOT doing the new move, you will sense the absence of that feeling of the new move.

[chigolfer1]

Jim, I posted this in the GG thread and I was just wondering your take on my thoughts about the proper hip movement and the fact there is a physiologically chain reaction that it causes more than just being sort of the "right thing to do" or however you want to put it. (given the focus on the pivot in your thread right now, I thought this would be on topic)

 

Is this pivot not very related to what Kelvin is trying to say here in a ridiculously long and confusing post? Why when I took a lesson and tried to consciously do the elbow move and not think about my hips, my swing was an early extension OTT disaster. Then, all I thought about were my hips and the swing almost looked like a "real swing" with the right elbow move seemingly happening automatically. Pay attention to the middle of this article where I really think it gets to the crux of the matter: Fascia Connections and the Spiral Line/Right Elbow Move. Is the proper hip movement/pivot setting up the whole swing properly and letting the rest of the swing happen almost "automatically?" I know on here we have sort of gone away from thinking about the hips but what if the proper movement of the hips is more than just the "right thing to do," if you know what I mean, but really creates a true physiologically full body chain reaction due to these connections. Also, if you've never used your hips before, maybe you have to consciously think about them more vs. someone who is truly athletic with a baseball background who is already subconsciously using his hips a lot more than a moderately athletic guy that has traditionally never used his hips properly in baseball or golf and been completely upper body dominant. (me in other words).

 

http://www.kelvinmiy...in-a-golf-swing

 

The answer, like most golf swing issues, is a bit of yes and a bit of no and a lot of "it depends". Yes - there is a chain or physical link from the ground up and the inside to out, or a Wave of dynamic energy created by feet to ground's resistance and the deep inside muscles along the spine and the pelvic floor. No it does not happen "automatically", ie you still have to train other body parts to behave properly, even when your hips are working right.

 

Yes on your baseball analogy. Golfers who played sports like baseball and hockey have that advantage of understanding the basic athletic throwing motion sequence, from the ground up.

 

Hogan talks about the "unbroken thrust" from start of downswing with left hip rotate and shift all the way to impact. Your left hip motion creates a pulling force throughout the body segments all the way to the clubhead. I like the Wave concept going up your left side during Release along with a Vortex shape motion to the left.

 

 

Thanks Jim. What are your thoughts on "consciously" pivoting the hips vs. it sort of happening as a reaction by your body? I tried something today where my only swing thought was my hips pivoting in a GG/Kelvin manner. I have taken plenty of lessons from good instructors and know my setup and backswing are more than adequate. It's everything after that I just can't figure out how to go about. Anyway, when I did this, I pretended like I didn't even care what happened with my arms or like I wasn't really swinging at the ball, just pivoting my hips, but somehow my arms came through the hitting zone before I even knew what happened.

I like what you said at the end - "my arms came through before I even knew what happened".

 

You always have to consciously "do" the new move you are learning in the early and intermediate stages of learning. Which is why I advocate for ONLY doing so in slow motion first, and then later on at half speed. You use a mirror for real-time visual feedback so that you know that you are in fact doing the new move correctly. Then you close your eyes and feel a sensation linked to the new motion.

 

Repeat hundreds of times, rinse and repeat....

 

Then graduate to half speed - same process..

 

You will end up at the end of each stage with a precise feel-based "image" of what it feels like to do the new move.

 

Later on, at full speed, you can "call up" the memory of that feeling before you start your swing....and most of the ime (80% of more often) your subconscious will react to that feel memory by instructing your body how to carry out the new move. You can then feel the new move taking place (your Feedback System) or in the case of you NOT doing the new move, you will sense the absence of that feeling of the new move.

 

Truly incredible post. That could be the front page of your web site, if it isn't already.

[Kiwi2]

Some forum members have asked for a more up to date version of the original ASI video posted earlier in this thread.

 

Here is the introduction to the ASI video from Jim's Great Shot! Video Series

 

 

Hopefully it will help some of you.

[davlterr]

I am 2 months in the golf career and come across this video. It makes perfect sense and in 30 seconds of visualization of the move in slow motion it indeed gets the back swing dead on plane. I would have never had that swing thought to take it back 45* and hinge up. I did that movement independent of the coil a few times to get that sensation, then I did my usual coil and the club went to a perfect level toe up position parallel to the ground. I'm very eager to take this to the range. I have some post where I show my swing and I'm very flat because I take the club straight back as I have always perceived the pros did and then a coil which then made me have a very flat to the inside take away.

[4pillars]

Jim

 

Just a follow up to my post on Tiger and slow motion mirror work.

 

Just saw a video with Martin Hall who said that Hank Haney told him that even during the majors Tiger would spent up to two hours every day in front of a mirror doing slow motion movements with a weighted club.

 

It's interesting because Tiger talks the weighted club in How I play golf, but nowhere in his book or the two books that Earl wrote is slow motion or mirror work mentioned. (In Haney's Big Miss he mentions the mirror but not the the slow motion or the weighted club.)

 

Although as Earl said - I don't tell everything.

[Jim Waldron]

Just finished taping the last short video segment of the Great Shot! Mastering the Craft of Ballstriking instruction series, Module Eight: Tempo, Rhythm and Timing! I am very excited to have finally completed the taping, now the editing of Module Five through Eight is the project for the next few months.

 

One of my assistants and I did eight hours of taping last week on the new video instruction series: The Art of Shotmaking: Mastering the Mental Game. It will require another 3 hours of taping to complete. That one will likely come in three, 2.5 hour separate videos when completed. It will also include a pdf text file covering the basics of my peak performance psychology model.

 

My video editor is now working on Module Five: Wrist, Right Arm, and Release Mechanics.

[4pillars]

Looking forward to to your mental game series.

 

Perhaps you should give Rick Shiels a copy as he seems to need some help in that department.

 

This week I had a long chat with a UK PGA Advanced Teaching Pro who has just completed a research PhD is Sports Psychology. So relatively well informed.

 

So we were talking mainly about the eye position in the swing, but also slow motion mirror work, and he had never heard of it.

 

With regard to the eye position in front of the ball he had never heard of that either.

 

He was interested in the Fuzzy Ball concept as he beleived most Touring Pros do not see the ball, at least on full shots. But he was not convinced that you could do it deliberately.

[Jim Waldron]

Looking forward to to your mental game series.

 

Perhaps you should give Rick Shiels a copy as he seems to need some help in that department.

 

This week I had a long chat with a UK PGA Advanced Teaching Pro who has just completed a research PhD is Sports Psychology. So relatively well informed.

 

So we were talking mainly about the eye position in the swing, but also slow motion mirror work, and he had never heard of it.

 

With regard to the eye position in front of the ball he had never heard of that either.

 

He was interested in the Fuzzy Ball concept as he beleived most Touring Pros do not see the ball, at least on full shots. But he was not convinced that you could do it deliberately.

 

Really, on the "not convinced you could do it deliberately?" part? I have taught several thousand students to do it, and pretty much every single one of them can and did do fuzzy ball and the other vision/aiming point protocols right away! I have to laugh because how you use your vision is one of the very few things your conscious mind can ACTUALLY INTEND TO DO AND REALLY DO in the golf swing, as opposed to the millions of golfers who are under the spell that "swing thoughts" create swing motions.

[Jim Waldron]

Jim

 

Just a follow up to my post on Tiger and slow motion mirror work.

 

Just saw a video with Martin Hall who said that Hank Haney told him that even during the majors Tiger would spent up to two hours every day in front of a mirror doing slow motion movements with a weighted club.

 

It's interesting because Tiger talks the weighted club in How I play golf, but nowhere in his book or the two books that Earl wrote is slow motion or mirror work mentioned. (In Haney's Big Miss he mentions the mirror but not the the slow motion or the weighted club.)

 

Although as Earl said - I don't tell everything.

 

Thanks for that "inside baseball" story! "That's gold, Jerry! Gold!"....Two hours of slow mo daily with a weighted club and a pure and focused mind can do awesome things!

[jimithng23]

Began practicing the Visual Perception Drill over the weekend. Results were the best ball-striking round of golf I've ever had, along with the lowest score.

[Jim Waldron]

Began practicing the Visual Perception Drill over the weekend. Results were the best ball-striking round of golf I've ever had, along with the lowest score.

 

Great! Which of the strategies did you end up using for the round?

 

Doing that really helps with keeping a steady head through impact.

[jimithng23]

Began practicing the Visual Perception Drill over the weekend. Results were the best ball-striking round of golf I've ever had, along with the lowest score.

 

Great! Which of the strategies did you end up using for the round?

 

Doing that really helps with keeping a steady head through impact.

I focused on a spot in front of and slightly outside the target line. Actually began practicing this Friday night in my garage. It was a legit "a-HA" moment. My impact instantly improved. Many more pure strikes on the ball.

 

Played again today, feeling better using these focal points, and I shot an 83. I'm a 13.4 so I'm pleased with the results so far!

[Jim Waldron]

Began practicing the Visual Perception Drill over the weekend. Results were the best ball-striking round of golf I've ever had, along with the lowest score.

 

Great! Which of the strategies did you end up using for the round?

 

Doing that really helps with keeping a steady head through impact.

I focused on a spot in front of and slightly outside the target line. Actually began practicing this Friday night in my garage. It was a legit "a-HA" moment. My impact instantly improved. Many more pure strikes on the ball.

 

Played again today, feeling better using these focal points, and I shot an 83. I'm a 13.4 so I'm pleased with the results so far!

 

There are about a dozen things that I teach that almost always result in immediate and dramatic ball flight improvement - how you use your vision is one of them. Finding the right strategy is key. Once you do that, you become much less "ball-bound" - ignoring the ball is a key principle. And your head stays steady, along with your upper swing center or sternum, meaning you dont sway through impact. Which gives you much better control over low point, angle of attack and Release.

 

One of our upcoming videos will be devoted to those twelve things.

[Alpione]

Hello all..

 

Been a "drag inside and get stuck" player for a lot of years. Very frustrating, particularly when I hit the range fairly frequently and never seemed to improve. I had heard of similar concepts to the ASI but for whatever reason I had never applied it.

 

Gave the first few pages of this thread a view and gave (my rudimentary interpretation of) the concept a try today. Hit some really great shots, and for the first time ever I felt like I could actually turn my body aggressively on the downswing without getting huge pushes or hooks. Arms staying in front of body is key.

 

Thanks to Jim for the input here. For the videos, is it appropriate to start with the ASI video, or are there concepts that need to be gleaned from earlier vids as well?

 

Thanks.

 

A

[Jim Waldron]

Hello all..

 

Been a "drag inside and get stuck" player for a lot of years. Very frustrating, particularly when I hit the range fairly frequently and never seemed to improve. I had heard of similar concepts to the ASI but for whatever reason I had never applied it.

 

Gave the first few pages of this thread a view and gave (my rudimentary interpretation of) the concept a try today. Hit some really great shots, and for the first time ever I felt like I could actually turn my body aggressively on the downswing without getting huge pushes or hooks. Arms staying in front of body is key.

 

Thanks to Jim for the input here. For the videos, is it appropriate to start with the ASI video, or are there concepts that need to be gleaned from earlier vids as well?

 

Thanks.

 

A

 

Thanks for your feedback, A! Glad to know the concept helped you .

 

My Great Shot! golf swing mastery video series is based on the concept of developmental learning, that there are foundation fundamentals in the early stages that are the building blocks for future learning of more intermediate and advanced skills. Module One is four videos that cover those foundation fundamentals in detail: grip and related issues involving hands, Setup, baseline balance and tempo, Finish, Aim, Steady Head, Vision, and the Big Picture concepts on the mechanics of Pivot, Arms and Wrists, and the six laws of club motion.

 

When those foundation fundamentals are weak or even non-existent, it makes learning the more technical swing changes later on almost impossible to do well. Most golfers i see and work with who are around 10 handicaps and higher are weak or missing in one or more of those key fundamentals.

[kadey]

I've read half way thru this thread, and also did a search, and I didn't come across a mention of Peter Alliss' The Golf Swing Is A Flail. The ASI concept seems to be related to it.

[DrainedTheEagle]

I love the 45 degree push away idea.

I did have some trouble with feeling it if I have a more vertical shoulder turn. See here - http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1365584-an-inside-takeaway-is-so-oddly-common-and-destructive-discuss/#entry14107862

[Jim Waldron]

I've read half way thru this thread, and also did a search, and I didn't come across a mention of Peter Alliss' The Golf Swing Is A Flail. The ASI concept seems to be related to it.

 

I am not familiar with Aliss's flail concept precisely, but the general concept of the swing as a "flail" has been around for a long, long time. It relates mainly to how the wrist release affects clubhead speed.

 

Not the same category as the ASI.

 

ASI is a a first look into the swing as happening in 3D space, and the idea that sensory illusions create false understanding in our minds - both conscious and subconscious - which form the basis for how we go about moving our body and club.

 

The ASI has many aspects, including the fact that the arms are moving themselves independently of the Pivot on the backswing, at the same time that the arms are being moved by the Pivot. One of the harder ASI concepts for most folks to grasp.

[Jim Waldron]

I love the 45 degree push away idea.u

I did have some trouble with feeling it if I have a more vertical shoulder turn. See here - http://www.golfwrx.c.../#entry14107862

 

You have to blend the proper amount of left side bend or left tilt of your torso with the shoulder girdle rotating 90 degrees to the spine, along with wrist c0ck and hinge, and the 45 degree angle arm pushaway of 4-8 inches. The result is an on plane shaft angle during takeaway. No more stuck inside!

[troysan]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

[Millbrook]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

 

The ASI is not a swing but an illusion of what the swing is so your question is unanswerable in the context you ask.

[troysan]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

 

The ASI is not a swing but an illusion of what the swing is so your question is unanswerable in the context you ask.

 

The question is absolutely answerable because even though, as you were so kind to point out, I worded it incorrectly, it was very obvious what I was asking.

 

In the swing Jim teaches, what starts the downswing?

 

I love the idea of pushing away at the 45 degree angle and have been practicing those positions. I'm not sure if the downswing should start with the hips, or the pulling of the arms down with the hips symotaneously, or if it starts with a pushing of the backfoot, ie from the ground up? Or none of the above?

 

Thanks to anyone who can answer!

[Jim Waldron]

So in the ASI swing, what starts the downswing?

 

The ASI is not a swing but an illusion of what the swing is so your question is unanswerable in the context you ask.

 

The question is absolutely answerable because even though, as you were so kind to point out, I worded it incorrectly, it was very obvious what I was asking.

 

In the swing Jim teaches, what starts the downswing?

 

I love the idea of pushing away at the 45 degree angle and have been practicing those positions. I'm not sure if the downswing should start with the hips, or the pulling of the arms down with the hips symotaneously, or if it starts with a pushing of the backfoot, ie from the ground up? Or none of the above?

 

Thanks to anyone who can answer!

 

1. your mind's intention to send the ball to the target ( what! no technical magic move to start the downswing? - heresy!)

 

2. Core firing spiral shape to the left (for a righty) while the chest is still completing the last ten or so degrees of the backswing.

 

3. left foot rolls back to it's flat Setup position.

 

4. left knee bumps laterally and a little rotary back to its Setup position, and adds one half inch of flexion to that position.

 

5. hip girdle/tailbone shifts laterally left toward the "west" or target, one to three inches (depending on stance width) and then rotary motion kicks in along with the lateral.

 

6. right knee flexes by one inch more than its Setup position, and bows outwards as external leg rotation established as Lower Body Postural Brace at Setup pressure increases.

 

7. hip flexion restored plus one inch more than Setup.

 

8. Tilt Switch happens.

 

9.rotation of hips, core and chest/s girdle to the left happens.

 

all of the above create a force acting on your arms which brings them down, out and a little bit toward mid-line relative to the body and moving rapidly in the direction of the target in a spiral shaped motion.

 

What you DO NOT do: 1. pull your arms down 2. pull your arms toward the ball 3. leave your arms behind (obviously, no?) 3. throw your wrist c0ck and hinge angles away. 4. hold on to your wrist angles. 5. move your head 6. lose your Balance 7. Pivot Thrust during Transition, ie create a too fast burst of speed for power application.

 

"from the ground up, and from the inside of the body to the outside" is one of my teaching mantras since 1995. Certainly not pushing off the back foot, that can happen a little bit but later on, during Release. You want to feel body pressure going downwards through the sole of your right foot to ground you.

 

That description above covers most of the first two stages - of three - of Transition and is an objective depiction.

 

What YOU might need to focus on/work on to learn a proper Transition for YOU might be just one of those items on the list OR it could be something else entirely, including a body move that IF you actually did it would be a flaw.

 

Except for element number one - your mind's target intention - all of those items listed are from a third person objective swing theory viewpoint. They are not things you are supposed to "think about" when striking golf balls.

 

The problem is - you can't play golf using theory. You play from your own subjective experience of your mind and body, and theory has no relation to that.

 

The art of learning/teaching lies in how the theory is translated into understanding at a deep level of your mind, and then execution.

 

When I work with students in person, normally at least an hour or more is devoted to drills on just one moving body part change. And it starts with slow mo mirror work usually. The theory part that starts the lesson usually only takes a couple of minutes. Then the real work begins.

 

Hope that clarifies some stuff for you about the Transition in my model swing.

[troysan]

Thanks Jim! Really appreciate you taking the time to answer!!!