The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[t_mac1213]

Not much talk about what the hands or forearms should be doing. Are they more passive or is there a conscious wrist set or left forearm rotation? I ask because I'm getting it a bit across the line at the top.

[Brahmabull102002]

I realize you don't want to talk much about transition due to causing more harm than good, but can you touch on a little??

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1367021601' post='6924963']
[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1367020141' post='6924827']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366992225' post='6922373']
[quote name='beutelwomb' timestamp='1366966136' post='6920509']
Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!
[/quote]

No.

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body
[/quote]

I totally get the backswing V but when I see arms/hands drop straight down then the club steepens rather than shallows. What am I missing? Thanks
[/quote]

The right elbow moves closer to the left elbow as the arms fall.
[/quote]

And remember the arms are moving simultaneously in three dimensions - down toward the ground, out toward the target line and around toward the target. A blend of arms moving down from the shoulder sockets and losing some width as the upper arms return to your body, and around and out dependently from shoulder girdle rotation. You can flatten the shaft by rotating the upper arms and/or bowing the left wrist and/or moving the right elbow closer to the left and by thoracic spine tilt. So the arms do not literally move "straight down" in a real golf swing, since those pivot forces and shaft flattening elements cause it flatten, ie be more u shaped.

The problem is that most human minds are hard-wired to "think" visually in only two dimensions and only focused on one thing at a time, but in the golf swing the body parts are moving in 3D and many parts are moving simultaneously in different dimensions. As soon as you use "inside the box" 2D thinking, you lose your way in understanding what is really happening.

One reason I am NOT a fan of a mostly intellectual/analyticsl conscious mind, left brain approach to learning a good golf swing. Too many blind alleys, and false leads. There are much better ways to learn....

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367027554' post='6925393']
Not much talk about what the hands or forearms should be doing. Are they more passive or is there a conscious wrist set or left forearm rotation? I ask because I'm getting it a bit across the line at the top.
[/quote]

I advocate a wrist c0ck and hinge action that starts immediately or very early in the takeaway, in tandem with the arm pushaway motion - kind of a scooping down on the butt end of the grip about a quarter inch, then out on the 45 degree angle. The right wrist hinge moves the left arm/wrist/shaft in a straight line, the Long Lever. The wrists c0cking up sets the shaft upwards into the vertical dimension. I don't teach any forearm rotation, as the little bit you need will tend to happen for 99% of golfers naturally during the arm pushaway.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1367023469' post='6925107']
I think this video is close to what Jim is trying to say.... when you're in your address position the club moves up an imaginary plane line from the ball to somewhere outside your right ear (between right ear and right shoulder depending where you have your hands at address)..... but this happens as you make your turn.. giving the illusion that you are actually swinging the club in a tilted/inclined plane around behind your body when in actual fact the club is pretty much staying in front of your torso... (you're just adding the shoulder turn on the way back but the club is basically still in front of your upper chest)... a picture says 1000 words and a video probably says more than that, so here you go...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/media]

I think I must have answered about this Bann video about twenty times now on the Web, not just this forum! He has the basic concept right but is not demonstrating it correctly. He is pulling his arms in toward his body as they go up - a common mistake, and way too close to his mid-line, nowhere near where they should be, his hands should be almost opposite his right shoulder and lower in height with less right arm bend.

But, thanks for posting that, until I get my own new vid up, this will have to do for now.


(Is that about right Jim?)

This guy will NOT feel like he's swinging the club around behind himself, on the contrary, he will feel like the club pretty much stays in front of him and somewhat parallel to the target line... even though he's made a full shoulder turn. His downswing will feel like he's swinging down the target line and then going left with his turn... not having to drag the club back to the ball from somewhere in the backseat of his pants!
[/quote]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367033080' post='6925931']
[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1367023469' post='6925107']
I think this video is close to what Jim is trying to say.... when you're in your address position the club moves up an imaginary plane line from the ball to somewhere outside your right ear (between right ear and right shoulder depending where you have your hands at address)..... but this happens as you make your turn.. giving the illusion that you are actually swinging the club in a tilted/inclined plane around behind your body when in actual fact the club is pretty much staying in front of your torso... (you're just adding the shoulder turn on the way back but the club is basically still in front of your upper chest)... a picture says 1000 words and a video probably says more than that, so here you go...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/media]

I think I must have answered about this Bann video about twenty times now on the Web, not just this forum! He has the basic concept right but is not demonstrating it correctly. He is pulling his arms in toward his body as they go up - a common mistake, and way too close to his mid-line, nowhere near where they should be, his hands should be almost opposite his right shoulder and lower in height with less right arm bend.

But, thanks for posting that, until I get my own new vid up, this will have to do for now.


(Is that about right Jim?)

This guy will NOT feel like he's swinging the club around behind himself, on the contrary, he will feel like the club pretty much stays in front of him and somewhat parallel to the target line... even though he's made a full shoulder turn. His downswing will feel like he's swinging down the target line and then going left with his turn... not having to drag the club back to the ball from somewhere in the backseat of his pants!
[/quote]
[/quote]

Not sure about the what it feels like part, that is so much a personal thing and also depends on which body part your mind is focused on from Feel Channel. And again he is NOT demonstrating my concept correctly in that video, his arms are almost in line with mid-line which is dead wrong.

The key is to actually do the proper body motion in reality and THEN attach your own feel to it with enough reps so you can reproduce it.

[Hstead]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367032918' post='6925911']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367027554' post='6925393']
Not much talk about what the hands or forearms should be doing. Are they more passive or is there a conscious wrist set or left forearm rotation? I ask because I'm getting it a bit across the line at the top.
[/quote]

I advocate a wrist c0ck and hinge action that starts immediately or very early in the takeaway, in tandem with the arm pushaway motion - kind of a scooping down on the butt end of the grip about a quarter inch, then out on the 45 degree angle. The right wrist hinge moves the left arm/wrist/shaft in a straight line, the Long Lever. The wrists c0cking up sets the shaft upwards into the vertical dimension. I don't teach any forearm rotation, as the little bit you need will tend to happen for 99% of golfers naturally during the arm pushaway.
[/quote]

This is exactly what Dan taught me. Set the wrists although I just kind of let it happen, but they set early. No worry about trying to force the left forearm to rotate, as it will automatically rotate a small amount when the right elbow bends because it has to, no other option, but you do not have to think about rotating the left forearm at all, it just happens when your right arm works correctly. And no "12-18" inches straight back etc., just turn and let the arms work in the correct fashion in front of you and the club travels on the correct path because it has to. I am a little like Couples, Trevino, etc right now in that I lift the arms earlier because I am focused on it, but as I have done it more and more the club is now starting to go back more to the inside. This is so much easier when you understand how the arms are supposed to work, especially the right arm I have found. You do not have to bog the mind down with all of these extra thoughts, just make the right arm work correctly and everything else is automatic.

[shanksalot]

After reading the thread I tried to do what I feel is being discussed. Hit the ball solid and felt a lot of room between the body and arms. I lost about 10% distance on all clubs. The compression was there but ball didn't seem to go very far. Any ideas? I'm sure I have the swing completely wrong and just going by what I have been reading here

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Brahmabull102002' timestamp='1367032621' post='6925887']
I realize you don't want to talk much about transition due to causing more harm than good, but can you touch on a little??
[/quote]

Just cause a little harm? LOL. I could write for hours about Transition, it is one of my favortie topics, but the whole point of communication is to accurately send your intended meaning to the person listening or in this case reading, and if the odds are close to zero that I will be able to achieve that, why engage in it? Not worth the risk of hurting someones swing since the amount of mis-understanding that would likely ensue would be simply huge.

If you think all the follow up questions about Kiwi and my very condensed and very basic posts about the Arm Swing Illusion are from folks who are having a hard time grasping the concept, you would not believe what would happen to a Transition post. This is like Arm Swing Illusion 101.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='shanksalot' timestamp='1367033659' post='6925977']
After reading the thread I tried to do what I feel is being discussed. Hit the ball solid and felt a lot of room between the body and arms. I lost about 10% distance on all clubs. The compression was there but ball didn't seem to go very far. Any ideas? I'm sure I have the swing completely wrong and just going by what I have been reading here
[/quote]

Unless you are already a very good striker with high clubhead speed, I can guarantee that you will add at least a half club distance when you are doing this correctly, assuming of course that you are doing ALL of the main parts of our swing model correctly as well, which I would never expect you to do, since you are only playing around with the arm part. You still have to uncoil your shoulder girdle at a high rpm speed while keeping your left arm to chest angle around 30-45 degrees intact until after impact. The main advantage of this arm illusion stuff is that it stops your arms from taking over control of your golf swing and kind of indirectly forces you to start engaging your pivot much more, both for applying the clubhead to the ball solidly and for more clubhead speed and more distance.

[Brahmabull102002]

For me, the backswing feels like I rotate core and at the same time, I lift arms. At nine o clock, if a rotate core back left so that I have no pivot, my left arm is extended over that 45 deg line u refer to. My issues seem to occur with either transition or downswing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Brahmabull102002' timestamp='1367034046' post='6926005']
For me, the backswing feels like I rotate core and at the same time, I lift arms. At nine o clock, if a rotate core back left so that I have no pivot, my left arm is extended over that 45 deg line u refer to. My issues seem to occur with either transition or downswing.
[/quote]

Take a lesson - seriously. You are not going to find your answers on an internet golf swing forum. All of these words are just meant to point you in the general direction of "correct" - they are not meant to be a substitute for an actual lesson. There are simply some areas of the swing where you just have to spend the time and money from an expert to understand it properly and to learn how drive it into long term motor memory.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1366991646' post='6922311']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366950553' post='6920093']
[quote name='ryanandrew_golf' timestamp='1366947646' post='6919863']
Mr. Waldron I have always enjoyed your posts. I learned about the Arm Swing Illusion from iteach and it was an epiphany for me. Now when I swing, I try to feel like my arms do not move in the horizontal dimension at all. Best of luck to you with your book
[/quote]

I love that - that is exactly what I recommend to my students. Try to feel as if your arms never move in the horizontal dimension until well after impact, and even then only a little.
[/quote]

I am kind of stuck here with the definition of horizontal. For lack of a better description, it seems to me that what is being described here is a turning of the body with no arm swing (movement) until about waist high or so, where by the club is simply lifted to the top of the backswing. Is this accurate?
[/quote]

Sorry I missed this one and a few others yesterday. No - the arm motion starts much earlier than your description. We actually teach three ways you can do it, depending on what your tendencies are: you can pushaway with arms first and then a micro-second later, start your Pivot - which will cause your shaft plane to be a little outside the ideal plane; you can pivot the belly and chest first, and then pushaway the arms a microsecond later, which will bring the club at worst a little inside the ideal plane; or you can simultaneously pushaway the arms and pivot, which will for most folks create an on-plane shaft. The second way, with pivot first and then arms very close behind, works well for most average golfers who tend to not engage their pivot early enough and fast enough. The first way works well for folks who start by pulling their arms inside.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1366992801' post='6922415']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366992225' post='6922373']
[quote name='beutelwomb' timestamp='1366966136' post='6920509']
Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!
[/quote]

No.

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body
[/quote]

Love the info. If you do not pull the arms down or across, which way does he recommend going with the arms, out towards the ball? I would like ot hear more about which way the arms move on the downswing. My arms feel like they are going left with my chest. Dan hand me trying to just keep my hands in the center of my chest, but not really thinking about them coming down or toward the target I guess. He showed me how the hands move toward the targetline which shallows the club, even though people think it makes you come OTT.
[/quote]

The real truth about which way to direct your arms? You do not direct them to move in any direction or to DO AHYTHING AT ALL. I do a Swing Map drill on the first day of golf school, where I make a backswing, get to the Top, drop by club to the ground and cross my arms against my chest, and then Pivot to a Finish. As a way of showing - you do nothing with your arms on the forward swing. It is 100% controlled by the Pivot. I know that is very hard for most golfers to accept and to understand, and I hate to keep repeating myself about the Illusion, but that is the cause for why this is so hard to understand. Almost every question I get about this issue, here and in other forums and in our golf schools, is all about "what does my conscious mind have to make my arms do". How about nothing at all? There is no independent arm muscle-powered arm motion, ie arm muscles moving the arms during forward swing. There is passive independent arm motion - meaning that the arms are moving from their connection at the shoulder sockets, they are not moved to impact and beyond frozen in their same relationship to the body as at the Top, ie they move down from the shoulder sockets and return to the chest.

The arms then stop moving even passively independently and stay completely motionless independently and are ONLY being moved by the Pivot until just after impact, when momentum causes them to move independently again across mid-line, off the chest and up toward the sky as the elbows fold.

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367014883' post='6924437']
[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367014053' post='6924385']
A picture would really be worth a million words here. I'm having trouble [color=#282828]visualizing what is being described. [/color]

[color=#282828]Are you saying that the arms move less like an ape swinging them (side to side) and more like a priest holding up the wine for blessing(lifting them straight out and up)?[/color]
[/quote]

I really can't make this any clearer, but the confusion only proves my point about how universal the notion of "arms swinging is".

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.

Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground. Do it without a club in your hand - just like shaking hands. Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes. Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you. Fairly easy to achieve that with left arm only drill, add both arms to a club - much, much harder. 99% of my new students will pull in and around by several inches and be 100% unconscious that they are doing this mistake.
[/quote]

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.

[attachment=1654617:Arms1.jpg]

Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground.

[attachment=1654619:Arms2.jpg]

Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes

[attachment=1654621:Arm3.jpg]

Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you.

[attachment=1654623:Arms4.jpg]

[CSagan]

Right arm looks a little deep mr kiwi. :-)

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1367023469' post='6925107']
I think this video is close to what Jim is trying to say.... when you're in your address position the club moves up an imaginary plane line from the ball to somewhere outside your right ear (between right ear and right shoulder depending where you have your hands at address)..... but this happens as you make your turn.. giving the illusion that you are actually swinging the club in a tilted/inclined plane around behind your body when in actual fact the club is pretty much staying in front of your torso... (you're just adding the shoulder turn on the way back but the club is basically still in front of your upper chest)... a picture says 1000 words and a video probably says more than that, so here you go...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/media]


(Is that about right Jim?)

This guy will NOT feel like he's swinging the club around behind himself, on the contrary, he will feel like the club pretty much stays in front of him and somewhat parallel to the target line... even though he's made a full shoulder turn. His downswing will feel like he's swinging down the target line and then going left with his turn... not having to drag the club back to the ball from somewhere in the backseat of his pants!
[/quote]

Typical Australian gets things half right. now us Kiwis

You do realise when a Kiwi emigrates to Australia, the IQ of both countries rises don't you?

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367041224' post='6926395']
Right arm looks a little deep mr kiwi. :-)
[/quote]

that was funny

[Jim Waldron]

The really cool thing about the Arm Swing Illusion concept is simply this: once you have spent some time pondering it, and actually doing the drills that are designed to "de-program" your mind from it's destructive influence (one of our laugh lines at Balance Point is that we are "the most dis-illusioning golf school on the planet), is that you start to really see all of the many ramifications, and layers and layers of doubt, confusion and mystery about the mechanics of the golf swing are stripped away. It is very, very exciting for my students to breakthrough with that level of clarity. Then the only remaining issues are: can you synch the arm motion, pivot and wrist motions - especially during the forward swing. And that is mostly a sequencing, tempo, rhythm and timing issue. Takes hitting thousands of golf balls to groove the feel for how the synch is happening, like knowing how to Pivot Thrust so that your clubface arrives "on time" at impact. And doing the swing in rock solid Balance. Both the Coordination and Balance issues are mainly illusion-free. Golf seems then to be more like other sports that you were good at. Not so frustrating or confusion. You hit a bad shot, very likely not so much because of poor body mechanics, much more likely your sequencing or tempo was off, or you lost your Balance a bit.

[raytracer]

[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1367040887' post='6926379']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367014883' post='6924437']
[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367014053' post='6924385']
A picture would really be worth a million words here. I'm having trouble [color=#282828]visualizing what is being described. [/color]

[color=#282828]Are you saying that the arms move less like an ape swinging them (side to side) and more like a priest holding up the wine for blessing(lifting them straight out and up)?[/color]
[/quote]

I really can't make this any clearer, but the confusion only proves my point about how universal the notion of "arms swinging is".

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.

Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground. Do it without a club in your hand - just like shaking hands. Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes. Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you. Fairly easy to achieve that with left arm only drill, add both arms to a club - much, much harder. 99% of my new students will pull in and around by several inches and be 100% unconscious that they are doing this mistake.
[/quote]

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.

[attachment=1654617:Arms1.jpg]

Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground.

[attachment=1654619:Arms2.jpg]

Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes

[attachment=1654621:Arm3.jpg]

Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you.

[attachment=1654623:Arms4.jpg]
[/quote]
your left arm isn't parallel to the ground in the second picture. is that important?

[peacedog]

Decided to attempt the backswing after rereading the thread. I know I wouldn't have the the help I would if it was a real lesson but I was so interested that I couldn't help myself. As soon as this thread began I realized how enlightening it could be. Then came the hard part. It took me a good half hour of frustration to get the backswing down. I will that I probably don't have it totally correct, but I think I came close. It took another half hour to not swing my arms. Every time I added to the swing something bad happened. I was doing ok at this point, was making decent contact, but I wasn't getting the compression I knew I should be getting.

I tried a few different things and then it struck me, needed to just let hands drop on downswing, pivot and push arms forward with pivot(not use arms), tried as best as possible not to swing on the horizontal, and finally I needed to have right arm remain as straight as possible in back and down swings. I hope I interpreted things correctly, you can correct me if needed. The results were great. I was getting the compression I have always coveted or very close to it, ball flight was as desired. When I thought I knew what I was doing I started using arms again and shots were fat and short, still not horrible, but lacked compression. I realize without a guide I could be doing things wrong and certainly it will take longer to get right. But this idea of arm illusion is the most excited I have been about anything in golf for a while and I had to try. Will be back out today as soon as honey do's are done. Thanks

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367065071' post='6926877']

your left arm isn't parallel to the ground in the second picture. is that important?
[/quote]

In the golf swing there are windows of acceptibility. It is the same with this drill. The pictures were taken from a continuous motion from a video made yesterday to specifically answer your question. The frame was close enough to show the drill.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367065071' post='6926877']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1367040887' post='6926379']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367014883' post='6924437']
[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367014053' post='6924385']
A picture would really be worth a million words here. I'm having trouble [color=#282828]visualizing what is being described. [/color]

[color=#282828]Are you saying that the arms move less like an ape swinging them (side to side) and more like a priest holding up the wine for blessing(lifting them straight out and up)?[/color]
[/quote]

I really can't make this any clearer, but the confusion only proves my point about how universal the notion of "arms swinging is".

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.

Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground. Do it without a club in your hand - just like shaking hands. Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes. Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you. Fairly easy to achieve that with left arm only drill, add both arms to a club - much, much harder. 99% of my new students will pull in and around by several inches and be 100% unconscious that they are doing this mistake.
[/quote]

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.

[attachment=1654617:Arms1.jpg]

Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground.

[attachment=1654619:Arms2.jpg]

Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes

[attachment=1654621:Arm3.jpg]

Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you.

[attachment=1654623:Arms4.jpg]
[/quote]
your left arm isn't parallel to the ground in the second picture. is that important?
[/quote]

His left arm is exactly where it should be for that drill. He is showing where the arm would be at end of takeaway in that pic. In a real takeaway that includes the pivot, the arm would be higher off the ground since some of the pivot motion is in the vertical dimension, which will raise the arm somewhat. Parallel to the ground in a real swing with left arm is P3, end of takeaway is P2. Shaft is parallel to ground at P2, not the left arm.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367065481' post='6926893']
Decided to attempt the backswing after rereading the thread. I know I wouldn't have the the help I would if it was a real lesson but I was so interested that I couldn't help myself. As soon as this thread began I realized how enlightening it could be. Then came the hard part. It took me a good half hour of frustration to get the backswing down. I will that I probably don't have it totally correct, but I think I came close. It took another half hour to not swing my arms. Every time I added to the swing something bad happened. I was doing ok at this point, was making decent contact, but I wasn't getting the compression I knew I should be getting.

I tried a few different things and then it struck me, needed to just let hands drop on downswing, pivot and push arms forward with pivot(not use arms), tried as best as possible not to swing on the horizontal, and finally I needed to have right arm remain as straight as possible in back and down swings. I hope I interpreted things correctly, you can correct me if needed. The results were great. I was getting the compression I have always coveted or very close to it, ball flight was as desired. When I thought I knew what I was doing I started using arms again and shots were fat and short, still not horrible, but lacked compression. I realize without a guide I could be doing things wrong and certainly it will take longer to get right. But this idea of arm illusion is the most excited I have been about anything in golf for a while and I had to try. Will be back out today as soon as honey do's are done. Thanks
[/quote]


Congrats on your breakthrough, Peacedog! The hardest part on the backswing is the proper blending of arm pushaway with the pivot. Like rubbing your tummy and patting your hand at the same time, it takes some mental focus and getting your brain in gear to execute two different motions at the same time. Very few of my students in our golf schools will blend it properly right away - takes most of them about 30 minutes of practice before they start getting close to a proper blend. And of course the proper blend is a perfectly on-plane shaft. 90% of my students when working on this will actually do the arm pushaway before they trigger their pivot, and take the club outside the plane. Before learning about the illusion, they would do the opposite - suck the club inside with a sideways arm motion and a bent right arm, with little pivot. But - outside is much preferred to inside. You can recover nicely from outside - inside is death!

Hardest part on forward swing is to successfully resist the impulse to use the sideways, across mid-line disconnnected arm motion as either a power source or as a way of employing hand-eye manipulation (non-athletic kind, like threading a needle) to apply the clubhead to the ball. Either of those two impulses will result in a bad shot.

Here is a hint: during Release, your shoulder girdle, arms/hands and clubhead should all be moving together as one unit at the same RPM speed. The clubhead does NOT move faster than the hands/arms in a good golf swing, and the hands/arms do NOT move faster than the shoulder girdle, during the Release segment. In RPM speed. Miles per hour speed - absolutely the clubhead moves much faster than the arms, and arms faster than shoulder girdle. Not RPM. This is one of the 32 Sensory Illusions I call the RPM vs MPH Illusion. It is also the basis for arriving at P6 with a Flat Left Wrist, which creates the Long Lever, and maintaining that FLW at impact and beyond a bit. The Arm Swing Illusion, the RPM vs MPH Illusion, the Lever Illusion and the Hit Impulse all combine to make you want to throw the clubhead past your hands before and during impact, and your arms past your body. Surrendering to that Impulse is something that you must resist. And that means you need to train your mind to have a clear intent on DOING NOTHING WITH YOUR ARMS AND NOTHING WITH YOUR WRIST DURING RELEASE. (I usually qoute the famous line from Hogan's 5 Lessons at this point in the discussion, but my copy is back on the mainland - but all you Hogan nuts out there know what I am talking about...."..the main thing for average golfers is to do nothing with with the wrists and arms at this point in the swing" - my poor paraphrasing, but that is close) ONLY Pivot Thrust to deliver the clubhead to the ball with good MPH speed.

Part of this issue is that when my students actually achieve this intention, they do so almost always at first without a golf ball, ie a rehearsal swing. And this is what they tell me everyday - "But Jim - that swing can't be right. It is completely lacking in power. I feel like I am moving in slow motion - the clubhead is moving slower than my normal swing, my arms are moving way slower and my body is rotating way slower."

Of course - the exact opposite is true and when they take it to the ball, they are getting 1/2 to one 1/2 more clubs in carry distance with their irons, and 10-25 yards more carry with their driver. But - it feels totally effortless to them, effortless power.

This feeling of moving very slowly, of time slowing down, is what I call the Time Sense Illusion, and once you breaktrhough that one, you really start to improve your ballstriking. It basically means your Hit Impulse is done, finished.

[34manny]

My main question is how do I find out about one of your golf schools? Where and when?

[MK7Golf21]

Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.

[Tacojoe]

[quote name='34manny' timestamp='1367086629' post='6927967']
My main question is how do I find out about one of your golf schools? Where and when?
[/quote]

[url="http://www.balancepointgolf.com/"]http://www.balancepointgolf.com[/url]

[sethdavidsdad]

Excellent stuff here. Thanks Jim for all the info. I have been struggling with getting my arms to far behind this seem to help.

[mattwood]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367081233' post='6927785']

Here is a hint: during Release, your shoulder girdle, arms/hands and clubhead should all be moving together as one unit at the same RPM speed. The clubhead does NOT move faster than the hands/arms in a good golf swing, and the hands/arms do NOT move faster than the shoulder girdle, during the Release segment. In RPM speed. Miles per hour speed - absolutely the clubhead moves much faster than the arms, and arms faster than shoulder girdle. Not RPM. This is one of the 32 Sensory Illusions I call the RPM vs MPH Illusion. It is also the basis for arriving at P6 with a Flat Left Wrist, which creates the Long Lever, and maintaining that FLW at impact and beyond a bit. The Arm Swing Illusion, the RPM vs MPH Illusion, the Lever Illusion and the Hit Impulse all combine to make you want to throw the clubhead past your hands before and during impact, and your arms past your body. Surrendering to that Impulse is something that you must resist. And that means you need to train your mind to have a clear intent on DOING NOTHING WITH YOUR ARMS AND NOTHING WITH YOUR WRIST DURING RELEASE. (I usually qoute the famous line from Hogan's 5 Lessons at this point in the discussion, but my copy is back on the mainland - but all you Hogan nuts out there know what I am talking about...."..the main thing for average golfers is to do nothing with with the wrists and arms at this point in the swing" - my poor paraphrasing, but that is close) ONLY Pivot Thrust to deliver the clubhead to the ball with good MPH speed.

[/quote]

Jim, when you state that the shoulder girdle,arms/hands, and clubhead should all move as one unit is that similar to feeling that the chest is turning and the arms/hands and clubhead follow it down and around? Seems like I can hit very solid compressed shots with that feel which I initiate with a head swivel, kind of like Duval, Sorenstam, etc. It feels like everything is turning at the same rate and there is no "hit" impulse with the arms.

[MK7Golf21]

Maybe Jim can address this, but regarding the post above since your arms and hands are higher than your chest wouldn't the move you describe leave your arms behind or following your chest?