The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[mattwood]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367097393' post='6928563']
Maybe Jim can address this, but regarding the post above since your arms and hands are higher than your chest wouldn't the move you describe leave your arms behind or following your chest?
[/quote]

To be honest, I don't know. Don't they have to follow it somewhat if at impact your chest and hips are somewhat open? It sure seems like I can hit more solidly when I think about rotating my chest and everything else seems to follow. I seem to not hit it as solidly when my arms are the main motor in the downswing. I hope that Jim can explain the shoulder girdle idea cause I could be misunderstanding what he is saying.

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok

[ALIF]

Pretty nice looking move. I won't offer any advice though as there are those better qualified than myself.

[raytracer]

thank you very much for all this information. I'm not trying to be contentious with my questions, just want to make sure I have it right.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok
[/quote]
I dont see much across the line there. Maybe a hair too much arm swing going back. Like Jim said, let the pivot take the arms "back".

[peacedog]

Every once in a while you are in the right place at the right time. That is how I feel about the arm swing illusion. If yesterday was the lightbulb moment for me, today was the lightbulb explosion moment. I have a few thoughts that hopefully will add to this thread. Jim mentioned that many people wonder where the power comes from, because they aren't swinging hard. That is how I felt yesterday. I was getting compression, but I knew I could get a whole lot more, it just took me a while to figure it out.

I have been in this forum for a few years and have read a lot of what goes on here. I have dabbled in this and that. Some things have helped, others have hindered, but overall it's great to just read about the passion that we all have about golf. One concept that seems to be totally misunderstood is that of lag. Monte harps on it time and time again, and I do believe he has it right, that trying to hold positions and get 'artificial' lag is more detrimental than helpful. Overall there is a misunderstanding to what it is and how to get it and use it. Lag is important and really is the power piece, but it's a byproduct of a good swing not vice versa. This was the piece I was missing yesterday. Today I added it and wow. Effortless power. Jim you can correct me if I'm wrong but that is what I came to feel today.

Next point and this is where so many of us mess up. The reason any manipulation with the arms/wrists is bad is because it messes with the flow and kills the lag. It's like taking a whip back and just before you are ready you jerk your arms forward and can't crack the whip and have a weak strike. Manipulation kills your power and momentum. This is another one of those illusions. You think because you are swinging hard you are generating power, because you are working hard, but in reality the moment you use your arms and hands you actually detract from your power because you are in effect destroying the momentum and power. You have to trust it will work and realize that not working hard is the correct way, learning how to correctly use the lag and then letting it flow with the swing adds so much more power than trying to muscle it yourself, even though it feels like because you aren't working it's not powerful. Again Jim correct me if I'm wrong.

Final point if you are struggling with the concept of lag, don't try to manually or artificially create it. Start with chips and learn how to feel it. Perhaps someone has a good method they can add. To me it feels like that point when you are done with the back swing and you let everything set up before the downswing. Kinda like if you flipped a towel at someone it's that moment right before you flip it forward when you feel it float back to its full extension then you whip it forward. There is a subtle feeling you get. It's much easier to get with your chipping then you can add it to a more full swing. This is the transition in the golf swing. If you don't do it right the whip won't crack if you do it's effortless power. I'm sorry if that example is hard to get. It really is a feel thing, that's why I'd start small first.

Thanks again for this thread Kiwi. I lived in NZ for a couple years and have many fond memories of Aotearoa. Kiwis are the most helpful people I have met. Jim, love that you are taking the time and answering and helping move this thread along. Can't believe the difference it has made in a couple days. It will take some time before I have it down, but like I said this was the right time/right place for me.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

[media=]http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok[/media]
[/quote]

its because your left arm is a little inside going back. see at halfway back your left arm isnt pointing in a straight line, its inside. It almost feels like your left arm goes out from you in a 45 degree angle starting the backswing, If you left arm goes out, it wont be able to go across the line to the right, it will go straight up and back slightly so it will point more left.at the top

Think of it this way, c0ck the club at a 90 degree angle from your left hand and put your left arm inside halfway into the backswing, then just lift it straight up from there over your shoulder almost-- it will point to the right since your left arm was inside.

Now do the opposite, c0ck the club at a 90 degree angle from your left arm and get into your address position, stick your left arm out 45 degrees from your chest halfway into the backswing, then just lift it from there, it will go left (btw-it will feel 45 degrees out from your chest, but it will be in a straight line on plane) like Jim said thats the illusion

[peacedog]

Found this [url="http://okava.blogspot.com/2010/01/interview-with-jim-waldron.html"]interview with Jim[/url]. I will warn that it is long, very long, but absolutely worth the read. Lots of insight into Jim's teaching and more detail on the arm swing illusion among other things. For me the hit impulse was the biggest killer in improving, of course that could have been helped if I would have taken lessons sooner. Then again finding the right instructor is not so easy. Part of why this has made so much sense is I took lessons in the fall and the instructor had me take the club back in a very similar fashion. He didn't explain why so intellectually I had a hard time with it, but I knew it was leading me to right path, and here I am. Now I get it and see and understand the whole picture, which makes it physically, intellectually, and emotionally so much easier to do.

[TeeAce]

Jim, first of all thanks a lot for taking the time and explaining people all this good stuff here. Always enjoy when illusions are shot down and people are getting good and real information.

Then one question: You talk a lot about left arm position and also right arm extension to keep it wide, but what kind of role you see for the right shoulder external rotation and right forearm supination at backswing?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='34manny' timestamp='1367086629' post='6927967']
My main question is how do I find out about one of your golf schools? Where and when?
[/quote]

800-898-4563, www.balancepointgolf.com

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mattwood' timestamp='1367095098' post='6928417']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367081233' post='6927785']

Here is a hint: during Release, your shoulder girdle, arms/hands and clubhead should all be moving together as one unit at the same RPM speed. The clubhead does NOT move faster than the hands/arms in a good golf swing, and the hands/arms do NOT move faster than the shoulder girdle, during the Release segment. In RPM speed. Miles per hour speed - absolutely the clubhead moves much faster than the arms, and arms faster than shoulder girdle. Not RPM. This is one of the 32 Sensory Illusions I call the RPM vs MPH Illusion. It is also the basis for arriving at P6 with a Flat Left Wrist, which creates the Long Lever, and maintaining that FLW at impact and beyond a bit. The Arm Swing Illusion, the RPM vs MPH Illusion, the Lever Illusion and the Hit Impulse all combine to make you want to throw the clubhead past your hands before and during impact, and your arms past your body. Surrendering to that Impulse is something that you must resist. And that means you need to train your mind to have a clear intent on DOING NOTHING WITH YOUR ARMS AND NOTHING WITH YOUR WRIST DURING RELEASE. (I usually qoute the famous line from Hogan's 5 Lessons at this point in the discussion, but my copy is back on the mainland - but all you Hogan nuts out there know what I am talking about...."..the main thing for average golfers is to do nothing with with the wrists and arms at this point in the swing" - my poor paraphrasing, but that is close) ONLY Pivot Thrust to deliver the clubhead to the ball with good MPH speed.

[/quote]

Jim, when you state that the shoulder girdle,arms/hands, and clubhead should all move as one unit is that similar to feeling that the chest is turning and the arms/hands and clubhead follow it down and around? Seems like I can hit very solid compressed shots with that feel which I initiate with a head swivel, kind of like Duval, Sorenstam, etc. It feels like everything is turning at the same rate and there is no "hit" impulse with the arms.
[/quote]

Yes - exactly right. You have good sequencing, connection, triangle, same RPM speed, etc.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367097393' post='6928563']
Maybe Jim can address this, but regarding the post above since your arms and hands are higher than your chest wouldn't the move you describe leave your arms behind or following your chest?
[/quote]

Release segment starts with hands at hip height, not chest height. And you chest does indeed lead your arms, its called Arm Lag. Not the same as being "stuck" ie it is possible for the arms to lag too far behind, that is a forward sequencing issue if your arms are in front of your chest at the Top. If you pull your arms in and behind you on the backswing - most average golfers - then it is a backswing mechanics issue.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?

First, a little across the line at the Top is no way a flaw. A lot - yes. You need to know when to stop moving your arms upwards and you need width or arm stretch/extension pressure in your arms to create and maintain your Triangle structure. Sideways pressure or gently squeezing your arms toward each other laterally, with equal opposing pressure, from armpits to fingertips. Then your arms will stop going up and will never go "in" toward you as you reach the Top at same moment your chest reaches max coil or just before that point. Across the line is also caused by too big an arm to chest angle, ie max is 75 degrees with a driver, 45 with a wedge.
[/quote]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367109320' post='6929459']
thank you very much for all this information. I'm not trying to be contentious with my questions, just want to make sure I have it right.
[/quote]

Not a problem, ray - you have been a total gentleman, not contentious in the slightest. I welcome your questions

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='JPeacockGolf' timestamp='1367114786' post='6929947']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]



you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok
[/quote]
I dont see much across the line there. Maybe a hair too much arm swing going back. Like Jim said, let the pivot take the arms "back".
[/quote]

Your swing looks real fine! Now go play golf!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1367127674' post='6930699']
Jim, first of all thanks a lot for taking the time and explaining people all this good stuff here. Always enjoy when illusions are shot down and people are getting good and real information.

Then one question: You talk a lot about left arm position and also right arm extension to keep it wide, but what kind of role you see for the right shoulder external rotation and right forearm supination at backswing?
[/quote]

Hi Tee - to me they are optional and in Transition, not backswing. A little bit of both will happen naturally for some golfers as they complete the backswing motion.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367115354' post='6929989']
Every once in a while you are in the right place at the right time. That is how I feel about the arm swing illusion. If yesterday was the lightbulb moment for me, today was the lightbulb explosion moment. I have a few thoughts that hopefully will add to this thread. Jim mentioned that many people wonder where the power comes from, because they aren't swinging hard. That is how I felt yesterday. I was getting compression, but I knew I could get a whole lot more, it just took me a while to figure it out.

I have been in this forum for a few years and have read a lot of what goes on here. I have dabbled in this and that. Some things have helped, others have hindered, but overall it's great to just read about the passion that we all have about golf. One concept that seems to be totally misunderstood is that of lag. Monte harps on it time and time again, and I do believe he has it right, that trying to hold positions and get 'artificial' lag is more detrimental than helpful. Overall there is a misunderstanding to what it is and how to get it and use it. Lag is important and really is the power piece, but it's a byproduct of a good swing not vice versa. This was the piece I was missing yesterday. Today I added it and wow. Effortless power. Jim you can correct me if I'm wrong but that is what I came to feel today.

Next point and this is where so many of us mess up. The reason any manipulation with the arms/wrists is bad is because it messes with the flow and kills the lag. It's like taking a whip back and just before you are ready you jerk your arms forward and can't crack the whip and have a weak strike. Manipulation kills your power and momentum. This is another one of those illusions. You think because you are swinging hard you are generating power, because you are working hard, but in reality the moment you use your arms and hands you actually detract from your power because you are in effect destroying the momentum and power. You have to trust it will work and realize that not working hard is the correct way, learning how to correctly use the lag and then letting it flow with the swing adds so much more power than trying to muscle it yourself, even though it feels like because you aren't working it's not powerful. Again Jim correct me if I'm wrong.

Final point if you are struggling with the concept of lag, don't try to manually or artificially create it. Start with chips and learn how to feel it. Perhaps someone has a good method they can add. To me it feels like that point when you are done with the back swing and you let everything set up before the downswing. Kinda like if you flipped a towel at someone it's that moment right before you flip it forward when you feel it float back to its full extension then you whip it forward. There is a subtle feeling you get. It's much easier to get with your chipping then you can add it to a more full swing. This is the transition in the golf swing. If you don't do it right the whip won't crack if you do it's effortless power. I'm sorry if that example is hard to get. It really is a feel thing, that's why I'd start small first.

Thanks again for this thread Kiwi. I lived in NZ for a couple years and have many fond memories of Aotearoa. Kiwis are the most helpful people I have met. Jim, love that you are taking the time and answering and helping move this thread along. Can't believe the difference it has made in a couple days. It will take some time before I have it down, but like I said this was the right time/right place for me.
[/quote]

Great post, Peacedog and congrats again on your two days in a row of breakthroughs! Lag just means proper sequencing: there is body lag (core trailing the hips during Pivot Thrust) arm lag, right wrist hinge angle lag, both wrists c0ck angle lag,etc. People throw their lag away because of arm swing illusion and the Hit Impulse, among other reasons. It is the "natural move" of all high handicappers. I just came back from an 8.5 hour Private Golf School, myself and one student, and spent a large chunk of that time working with him - a 20 handicapper - on his wrist and arm throwaway.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='34manny' timestamp='1367086629' post='6927967']
My main question is how do I find out about one of your golf schools? Where and when?
[/quote]

Portland, Oregon from May through Ocotober. Oahu in December and April 1-May 10. Palm Springs January 16-March 23.

I sometimes do golf schools in Singapore and nearby at Ria Bintan Golf Club, Indonesia.

[Hogan1975]

Great thread Jim...fun to read,,and very educational

That hit syndrome is the vain of all of us..

It might be preshot setup that will fix this..or doing everything you can not to hit from the top..but hit at hip height and below,

I once had a pro, who said to beat the hit... Practice a few months trying to hit all of your shots a 100 yards ( in feel) even with the driver.. Slowed me up on the way down..tough drill

That hit syndrome is so brutal

My practice swings still look so flawless..love to take those and have those as my main swing,,again..hit syndrome

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok
[/quote]

Tmac - I took the time to look at a few more of your swings. Really a very good action - I do not see any major across the line at the Top issue. Almost everyone - including tour pros - could use a bit more triangle structure, at the Top especially - and the arm pressures I mentioned is the way to acheive that. Your tilts and pivot are excellent. I am guessing a plus 3 to plus 5 if your short game, mental game and putting are equally as good?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367128849' post='6930739']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1367127674' post='6930699']
Jim, first of all thanks a lot for taking the time and explaining people all this good stuff here. Always enjoy when illusions are shot down and people are getting good and real information.

Then one question: You talk a lot about left arm position and also right arm extension to keep it wide, but what kind of role you see for the right shoulder external rotation and right forearm supination at backswing?
[/quote]

Hi Tee - to me they are optional and in Transition, not backswing. A little bit of both will happen naturally for some golfers as they complete the backswing motion.
[/quote]

Thanks Jim, there we got different opinion but both can work. Understanding that right arm role for myself made me low 70's player again.

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367115354' post='6929989']

Thanks again for this thread Kiwi. I lived in NZ for a couple years and have many fond memories of Aotearoa. Kiwis are the most helpful people I have met. Jim, love that you are taking the time and answering and helping move this thread along. Can't believe the difference it has made in a couple days. It will take some time before I have it down, but like I said this was the right time/right place for me.
[/quote]

Kia ora!

[Jim Waldron]

The Wrist Illusion is a sub-set of the Arm Swing Illusion and it means that the wrist un-c0ck perpendicular to the ground or nearly so for some tour pros.

If you look at the orientation of the left wrist at P6 or Halfway Down position you can clearly see this. And look at impact. Same orientation.


Ask yourself how can this be?

It seems as if the clubhead would approach the ground at a 90 degree angle, if you kept the flat left wrist, as you should.

But obviously the clubhead does NOT hit the ground even close to a 90 degree angle. Why not?

Because your Pivot - lateral weight shift left, rightward spine tilt and rotation shallows out the angle of attack of the clubhead.

If you flip your wrists during Release, you are under the spell of the wrist version of the arm swing illusion. You will never hit down with forward shaft lean if you are trying to apply the clubhead to the ball at any point in the downswing, from the wrist joint itself. Doing so will un-c0ck the wrist in the horizontal dimension, ie a flip - instead of the vertical dimension, as it should.

A training drill is to got to end of takeaway, and pause, chest about 45 degrees or a bit more, shaft parallel to ground. Do a half a wrist c0ck with both wrists, and a bent back right wrist, do not bend your right elbow or lift your arms, and gently tap down with the clubhead until you thump the ground, three times, just inside your toe line, maintaining a bent right wrist as you thump. Then after the third thump, just pivot to a half swing finish at waist high and still try to thump the ground at the same spot a bit inside your toe line as the previous three thumps. If you blend the pivot speed and wrist release speed, you will thump the ground about two to three inches target-side of the ball, but it will feel like you are thumping over your toe line, especially if you are a "flipper". We call this the Woodchopping dril, wrist version.

[J13]

Jim great discussion here but man no love for the East Coast? haha

[Jim Waldron]

I have not been west of the Mississippi in 30 years, and not west of the Rockies in 20, except one time in 1996 at the PGA show in Orlando. No megalopolis for me...

[J13]

haha I understand. The Arm Swing illusion is very interesting to me. I started playing golf and baseball at 7-8 years old and the transition from one season to another always messed me up. Due to continuing in baseball through school it really made me an arm swinger with fast hips. I play to a +1 but I get in trouble as the hips fire before my backswing is complete getting the club stuck behind me a bit causing a forced rotation of my forearms to square the clubhead. Obviously this leads to inconsistency based on timing. But I tried yesterday hitting the ball using this illusion info and it was very interesting. I essentially tried to feel as if the club was simply lifting while maintaiing the same distance from my body while rotating back. It was odd but I actually hit the ball well. Now I know I wasn't doing it completely right just kind of a mind blower in terms of not swinging my arms yet still hitting the positions.

ALso felt like I had more room in the swing if that makes sense. Been working with Dan on some of these things and so far so good. Tough to overcome though

[gr8blueheronbird]

Jim, I believe you mean "east of the Mississippi" and "east of the Rockies".

[sethdavidsdad]

Here is what I'm doing. For Practice I take the arms out 45 degrees left heal to right toe line. Then I c0ck the wrist then turn back.
For a normal speed full backswing I try to start with the arms pushing 45 degrees and blending the turn in with cocking the wrist. Does this sound right Jim?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sethdavidsdad' timestamp='1367154058' post='6931381']
Here is what I'm doing. For Practice I take the arms out 45 degrees left heal to right toe line. Then I c0ck the wrist then turn back.
For a normal speed full backswing I try to start with the arms pushing 45 degrees and blending the turn in with cocking the wrist. Does this sound right Jim?
[/quote]

Not exactly - the drill is as shown in the diagram earlier in the thread, NOT left heel to right toe line as you wrote, that is too large an angle and too much to right of mid-line, will create too much Arm Lag. And you are sequencing it - arm move, wrist c0ck, then turn. That is okay for training to see how the puzzle pieces fit together. But your second point is very good - yes, you blend the wrist set, arm pushaway and pivot - and there is your on-plane backswing!