The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[sblack5]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367285237' post='6940993']
[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367266057' post='6939127']
the whole arm PUSHaway seems to be a huge swing key to actually get the club back on track....whereas a traditional TAKEaway seems to get the club inside no matter how wide you try to be at the top or how "one piece" you try to make it
[/quote]

Exactly, you are figuring it out for sure. I guarantee that "late hit" feeling is going to show you holding your leverage like you want with more lag. Lag is the effect of keeping everything in front moving at the same rate.
[/quote]

Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

its crazy.......ball makes a different sound at impact......a different kind of thud.......and I've never had divots that were really shallow like that. Never been a digger, but have never taken a divot with good contact and still had the roots of the grass in the ground like I did today. its like I try to get my arms as far away from me in the correct position going back and then just turn and let my arms do whatever they are going to. gravity takes care of the rest it seems. VERY different from being wide and stretched at the top and then feeling my right bicep load in transition as I got narrower. only thing I don't feel that has been a bit of a check point in the backswing is the whole stretched left lat/coiled feeling. anything about that you'd be so generous as to share Mr. Waldron?

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367264700' post='6939007']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367260725' post='6938547']
[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367259130' post='6938337']
tried to get some work on this today. compared to my right arm being so deep, the backswing arm action felt like I could get a beach ball in between my chest and wrists.

I tried the no pivot drill at first and ended up finding that if my hands were at my sides, my left arm will go at the 45* angle to match the shaft and that seems to simply cause then right arm to move straight out pretty much perpendicular to the target line. in the DTL view once I got comfortable with it, my left hand ended up on front of my right collarbone/delt area. ( with pivot)

I took dry erase marker to my big mirror and even though the difference felt sssooooooooo upright and outside, it actually wasn't. with the downswing, I read earlier in the thread that the arms were COMPLETELY passive and that everything "fell east"........ kind of felt like from the top I just dropped my arms with gravity and not muscle while simply turning back thru the ball.

before I hit a ball I thought that there was no way in creation that the club would square or have any force.........felt so flimsy. after a few balls I couldn't believe the contact. divots were very shallow and my hips didn't stall. didn't even feel the need to shift in transition. was just very centered with my arms doing their thing while I turned. also felt like I was waaay past the ball before contact. I knew something was getting better because even on a mishit I was still in a transferred and balanced position. mishits were fades.....like I was coming outside in for path on the way down. maybe too close to the midline in the backswing???

not totally comfortable with the whole concept yet mechanically but I do like how much easier it is to get into a better position from which to deliver the blow to the ball. also can't believe how far the ball goes swinging like this. completely jacked my distances for a minute.
[/quote]

Yes - all of that sounds right. Every student tells me that this type of action feels totally lacking in power and everyone hits it much farther...hmmmm, something interesting going on there, no? What folks are feeling is the total ABSENCE OF THE HIT IMPULSE - FOR MANY, THE FIRST TIME IN THEIR LIVES.

We tend to associate the feeling of arms moving past mid-line as a power move - even though in reality it is a power leak. Keeping the left arm angle to chest intact during Release feels wrong and it feels weak - when in truth it is very powerful. Soon that weak feeling is replaced by the opposite feeling, of a karate kind of setting the angle up to make a powerful body blow.
[/quote]

glad to know I'm at least on the right track..........it is the WEIRDEST feeling ever........totally different from baseball or anything else where hitting something is involved.....but then again I can see where with a little grooving of the motion it will be repeatable and easy and not something you would wake up and lose......

.interesting side note.....this same idea has made it sooooooo much easier to hit a short dead flopper from a tight green side lie. I tried it a bunch today having to carry a ridge to a green running away from me. the kind of shot where you. need to carry it like 6' but come out dead as fried chicken .......works awesome.
[/quote]

I was taught this flop shot years ago open up, open the blade, and feel like you push the club outside. At the time my problem was the same as it is now I kept sucking the club inside too quick. So, i never used it much. Now looking back this is the same feeling he was trying to get me to do years ago. It wasn't really outside the line it just felt that way to me.

[CSagan]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.

[sethdavidsdad]

Can't wait to get to the course tomorrow night. Hitting balls in the basement tonight it feels great. With some step up from Dan and my new swing thoughts I'm ready to golf. New swing thoughts Push, Turn, Wait.
Push - the arms out at a 45 degree angle away from my chest.
Turn- turn back of course
Wait - wait for the hands to drop

Of course the pushing and turn happen at the same time. Hope I can get some more reps in and blend the two together better.

[Hstead]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367286924' post='6941215']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.
[/quote]

Dan asked me and I got it lol. RPM is everything moving at the same rate, hips, shoulders, chest, arms, hands. The club is moving at a fasert mph because it is farthest from the center, but all of the body parts are moving at the same rate, not the same mph. I think I get a shiny toy don't I Jim? Either that or you are going to tell me I am wrong and explain it better lol

Dan talked a lot about this with me, and he focused on the "triangle" that Jim mentioned earlier, keeping the hands in the center of my shirt buttons, which is the same thing, Dan just explained it as a feel for me.

[CSagan]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367287088' post='6941237']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367286924' post='6941215']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.
[/quote]

Dan asked me and I got it lol. RPM is everything moving at the same rate, hips, shoulders, chest, arms, hands. The club is moving at a fast mph because it is farthest from the center, but all of the body parts are moving at the same rate, not the same mph. I think I get a shiny toy don't I Jim? Either that or you are going to tell me I am wrong and explain it better lol
[/quote]

Ahh. ty Mr. Heathbro.

So Mr. Waldron, if a student comes in with slow arms catching all that lag pressure what do you do?

I've read stuff from Zach Johnson saying he hits balls feeling like his back stays towards the target on the downswing...or left shoulder stays in place while arms work down. I've tried these and don't really like the feeling triyng to hold something back while swinging. Interested on your view on all this jazz.

[Hstead]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367287388' post='6941275']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367287088' post='6941237']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367286924' post='6941215']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.
[/quote]

Dan asked me and I got it lol. RPM is everything moving at the same rate, hips, shoulders, chest, arms, hands. The club is moving at a fast mph because it is farthest from the center, but all of the body parts are moving at the same rate, not the same mph. I think I get a shiny toy don't I Jim? Either that or you are going to tell me I am wrong and explain it better lol
[/quote]

Ahh. ty Mr. Heathbro.

So Mr. Waldron, if a student comes in with slow arms catching all that lag pressure what do you do?

I've read stuff from Zach Johnson saying he hits balls feeling like his back stays towards the target on the downswing...or left shoulder stays in place while arms work down. I've tried these and don't really like the feeling triyng to hold something back while swinging. Interested on your view on all this jazz.
[/quote]

Does Zach hit a draw? Dan talked a lot to me about hitting draws and fades. He said all he does it change his shoulders, using the shoulders as the guide for the arms, and to draw it he guides the shoulders more closed at impact and the arms follow and to hit a fade he guides the shoulders well open at impact and the arms follow . No other changes to setup, club face, grip etc. Just open more to fade it and do not open as much to draw it. Maybe that is why Zack likes to keep the shoulders more closed, to draw it? Guessing here.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367287088' post='6941237']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367286924' post='6941215']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.
[/quote]

Dan asked me and I got it lol. RPM is everything moving at the same rate, hips, shoulders, chest, arms, hands. The club is moving at a fasert mph because it is farthest from the center, but all of the body parts are moving at the same rate, not the same mph. I think I get a shiny toy don't I Jim? Either that or you are going to tell me I am wrong and explain it better lol

Dan talked a lot about this with me, and he focused on the "triangle" that Jim mentioned earlier, keeping the hands in the center of my shirt buttons, which is the same thing, Dan just explained it as a feel for me.
[/quote]

You got the correct answer! MPH is a function of the clubhead being the end of a Long Lever. Same RPM speed, like an old stereo turntable, different MPH speed.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367287388' post='6941275']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367287088' post='6941237']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367286924' post='6941215']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]



Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.
[/quote]

Dan asked me and I got it lol. RPM is everything moving at the same rate, hips, shoulders, chest, arms, hands. The club is moving at a fast mph because it is farthest from the center, but all of the body parts are moving at the same rate, not the same mph. I think I get a shiny toy don't I Jim? Either that or you are going to tell me I am wrong and explain it better lol
[/quote]

Ahh. ty Mr. Heathbro.

So Mr. Waldron, if a student comes in with slow arms catching all that lag pressure what do you do?

I've read stuff from Zach Johnson saying he hits balls feeling like his back stays towards the target on the downswing...or left shoulder stays in place while arms work down. I've tried these and don't really like the feeling triyng to hold something back while swinging. Interested on your view on all this jazz.
[/quote]

No universal answer, depends on the student. I explained it basically in that post. If they are Tilt Switching correctly, arms will stay in front with not so much lagpressure. If they firing their hips too early and/or too fast, I have them slow that down.

[AgrizzUF]

I had a feel breakthrough with this two days ago and really felt it today on the course. I too felt like I was taking it way outside, but on video, I was not. The problem for me on the poor ones was that I think I was missing that wait step at the top. I struggled much more with the longer clubs in this respect. On the shorter clubs, I assume I have less of a hit impulse because I know I am not trying to blast them out of the park, so I can feel that amazing thud at impact that comes along with this technique.

Did anyone have trouble with taking this proper arm swing to the longer clubs? I hit a couple of really good 3 woods and a hybrid but very few if any good driver swings on the course. Any recommendations on how to feel the same with the driver and this swing as a PW?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367286092' post='6941121']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367285237' post='6940993']
[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367266057' post='6939127']
the whole arm PUSHaway seems to be a huge swing key to actually get the club back on track....whereas a traditional TAKEaway seems to get the club inside no matter how wide you try to be at the top or how "one piece" you try to make it
[/quote]

Exactly, you are figuring it out for sure. I guarantee that "late hit" feeling is going to show you holding your leverage like you want with more lag. Lag is the effect of keeping everything in front moving at the same rate.
[/quote]

Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

its crazy.......ball makes a different sound at impact......a different kind of thud.......and I've never had divots that were really shallow like that. Never been a digger, but have never taken a divot with good contact and still had the roots of the grass in the ground like I did today. its like I try to get my arms as far away from me in the correct position going back and then just turn and let my arms do whatever they are going to. gravity takes care of the rest it seems. VERY different from being wide and stretched at the top and then feeling my right bicep load in transition as I got narrower. only thing I don't feel that has been a bit of a check point in the backswing is the whole stretched left lat/coiled feeling. anything about that you'd be so generous as to share Mr. Waldron?
[/quote]

The left lat pressure is indeed a checkpoint. If you lack that, you are pulling arms in and/or not coiling shoulder girdle fully.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='AgrizzUF' timestamp='1367288840' post='6941459']
I had a feel breakthrough with this two days ago and really felt it today on the course. I too felt like I was taking it way outside, but on video, I was not. The problem for me on the poor ones was that I think I was missing that wait step at the top. I struggled much more with the longer clubs in this respect. On the shorter clubs, I assume I have less of a hit impulse because I know I am not trying to blast them out of the park, so I can feel that amazing thud at impact that comes along with this technique.

Did anyone have trouble with taking this proper arm swing to the longer clubs? I hit a couple of really good 3 woods and a hybrid but very few if any good driver swings on the course. Any recommendations on how to feel the same with the driver and this swing as a PW?

The driver left arm to chest angle should be around 75 degrees at the Top - not 45 like a wedge. As the clubs get longer, some momentum from your shoulder pivot in the horizontal dimension leaks into your upper arms and moves them toward your right, more right of mid-line. And this allows your shaft plane to be shallower as needed for driver especially. Newbies to this concept will often overdo it and attain a 45 degree angle at the Top with driver which is way to steep and way too in front.
[/quote]

[CSagan]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367288781' post='6941451']
No universal answer, depends on the student. I explained it basically in that post. If they are Tilt Switching correctly, arms will stay in front with not so much lagpressure. If they firing their hips too early and/or too fast, I have them slow that down.
[/quote]

That last sentence is relevant to my interests! Simply how do you get them to delay the hips firing too soon and slowing them down a tad.

Mine will fire just a bit early and open up too soon, you can see below...but this was during school with iteach and I was more synced up in these shots..so it can get a lot worse.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI[/url]

Sorry for 20 questions...just appreciate all the info you've shared and wanna soak up what I can.

[Shaggie]

The hands move in a circle just as the club head moves in a circle except for the fact of lag in weighted club head. The hands should move in a perfect tilted circle
case closed

[sblack5]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367288865' post='6941463']

The left lat pressure is indeed a checkpoint. If you lack that, you are pulling arms in and/or not coiling shoulder girdle fully.
[/quote]

crap......so go ahead and turn the shoulders more and as long as the club is in the correct spot in front of my shoulders from the pushaway I'll still be fine just letting it all go the same??? also, with the "wait" in the transition.....please tell me that this is a natural thing and is unconscious as long as you dont snatch it in a rebound like fashion from the end of your backswing. ive always liked the notion of "allow the club to change direction and ACCELERATE to the ball"..implying that tge club gains speed comimg down as opposed to being jerked from the top. would seem way out of line with the whole theme of the explanation in this thread to have to try to time a conscious waiting of your arms to drop down before you started turning back.

[peacedog]

Getting things down more and more. Had a few balls squirt off to the right. Wondering what is the cause and fix? Thanks

[Shaggie]

You guys need to go to the practice green and chip and putt all day long so you can post a score in a tournament someday maybe and be proud of yourself

[AgrizzUF]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367289030' post='6941493']
[quote name='AgrizzUF' timestamp='1367288840' post='6941459']
I had a feel breakthrough with this two days ago and really felt it today on the course. I too felt like I was taking it way outside, but on video, I was not. The problem for me on the poor ones was that I think I was missing that wait step at the top. I struggled much more with the longer clubs in this respect. On the shorter clubs, I assume I have less of a hit impulse because I know I am not trying to blast them out of the park, so I can feel that amazing thud at impact that comes along with this technique.

Did anyone have trouble with taking this proper arm swing to the longer clubs? I hit a couple of really good 3 woods and a hybrid but very few if any good driver swings on the course. Any recommendations on how to feel the same with the driver and this swing as a PW?

The driver left arm to chest angle should be around 75 degrees at the Top - not 45 like a wedge. As the clubs get longer, some momentum from your shoulder pivot in the horizontal dimension leaks into your upper arms and moves them toward your right, more right of mid-line. And this allows your shaft plane to be shallower as needed for driver especially. Newbies to this concept will often overdo it and attain a 45 degree angle at the Top with driver which is way to steep and way too in front.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Yes! This sounds exactly like what was happening, I was trying too hard to feel that same angle with the driver as that wedge and that just does not work. Was steep all day with it even though i felt like I was doing the same thing. So the feeling of that momentum in the horizontal direction should not be fought with the hands to keep it at 45 degrees. Makes a lot of sense but I did not want to feel like the cub was too far behind me so I fought it off while first disillusioning myself. Thank you for the insight Jim! I guess you have seen it enough to know exactly what I was doing.

[sblack5]

[quote name='Shaggie' timestamp='1367291862' post='6941799']
You guys need to go to the practice green and chip and putt all day long so you can post a score in a tournament someday maybe and be proud of yourself
[/quote]

glad you're using your time to be relevant to the thread dude.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367290238' post='6941651']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367288781' post='6941451']
No universal answer, depends on the student. I explained it basically in that post. If they are Tilt Switching correctly, arms will stay in front with not so much lagpressure. If they firing their hips too early and/or too fast, I have them slow that down.
[/quote]

That last sentence is relevant to my interests! Simply how do you get them to delay the hips firing too soon and slowing them down a tad.

Mine will fire just a bit early and open up too soon, you can see below...but this was during school with iteach and I was more synced up in these shots..so it can get a lot worse.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq41-wv7ReI[/url]

Sorry for 20 questions...just appreciate all the info you've shared and wanna soak up what I can.
[/quote]

Not a problem, I am having fun with this while I have time right now at home recovering. The answer is one I give so often to my students that they must be sick of hearing it - AWARENESS. You slow down first by not trying to slow down, and simply observing the speed of your hips and/or core, without trying to change anything about it. Then with that foundational awareness, you can do Exageration Drills, ie speed up by 25% followed by slow down from normal speed by 25%, etc. That allows you some measure of control over the speed that previously was automatic. Or - you speed up your Tilt Switch and shoulder girdle Transition un-coiling speed to catch up to your hips, to stay in synch. But - that sometimes leads to poor Balance.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367290948' post='6941721']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367288865' post='6941463']

The left lat pressure is indeed a checkpoint. If you lack that, you are pulling arms in and/or not coiling shoulder girdle fully.
[/quote]

crap......so go ahead and turn the shoulders more and as long as the club is in the correct spot in front of my shoulders from the pushaway I'll still be fine just letting it all go the same??? also, with the "wait" in the transition.....please tell me that this is a natural thing and is unconscious as long as you dont snatch it in a rebound like fashion from the end of your backswing. ive always liked the notion of "allow the club to change direction and ACCELERATE to the ball"..implying that tge club gains speed comimg down as opposed to being jerked from the top. would seem way out of line with the whole theme of the explanation in this thread to have to try to time a conscious waiting of your arms to drop down before you started turning back.
[/quote]

I never said anything about "waiting" during Transition, that was someone else. Obviously there has to be a very slight pause to clubhead as it changes directions, but our model is that your Transition stage one is core firing left when you still have 15 degrees or so of shoulder girdle to finish to the Top. And stage two is tailbone lateral shift. If the arms stop going up as the shoulder stop coiling to the Top, there is no "wait" (along with what occurs in my previous sentence).

If some one is way too fast on transition then a corrective drill would be to "wait" - but it is not a fundamental part of our model.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367291854' post='6941795']
Getting things down more and more. Had a few balls squirt off to the right. Wondering what is the cause and fix? Thanks
[/quote]

I could not possibly answer without seeing a video and doing a lesson with you. And if just a few bad ones, no need to "fix" anything, "fixitis" is epidemic in golf. Ignoring the inevitable occassional bad shot that happens and NOT reacting to them emotionally is KEY to successful practice. No other sport on the planet where athletes react to bad performance by changing or giving up on what they are working on. Keep on doing what you are doing and if it really stops working for you - you need a lesson! I am not a fan of self-directed golf swing learning, as you guys can probably tell by now, and the track record for it is pretty dismal.

[CrisPy3]

12 pages and I'm still way unclear of what we're talking about.
Is this all TGM (extensor action) combined with this move? -

[url="http://youtu.be/BKP_H52Xy0Y?t=1m11s"]http://youtu.be/BKP_H52Xy0Y?t=1m11s[/url]

[Jim Waldron]

No - that is not it. TGM extensor action has been defined in various ways, I had three certified TGM teachers explain it to me in 3 different ways. I prefer my own explanation. If you are having trouble with the concept, it is not unusual - the Illusion is powerful.

[sblack5]

lllloooooovvvvveeeeee this thread

[GeoffDickson]

After 24hrs of excitement and high expectation and few hours of practice/drills in both the living room and the office, I hit some balls this afternoon.

i started with a few warmup swings and then laid a club on the ground at 45* for a few practice takeaways.

Then I stepped up the plate....Nailed it on the first attempt. The second attempt and the third attempt. Here is a screen grab from swing #1

[attachment=1659581:photo.jpg]


...but could not repeat it for the rest of the session. Not one in another 75 balls or so. Very frustrating to say the least....but at least now I have half a clue which is alot more than what I had yesterday.

[Jim Waldron]

[q
i started with a few warmup swings and then laid a club on the ground at 45* for a few practice takeaways.

Then I stepped up the plate....Nailed it on the first attempt. The second attempt and the third attempt. Here is a screen grab from swing #1

[attachment=1659581:photo.jpg]


...but could not repeat it for the rest of the session. Not one in another 75 balls or so. Very frustrating to say the least....but at least now I have half a clue which is alot more than what I had yesterday.

You need to work on this into your swing pattern in slow motion first, then half speed. At Balance Point, we never take a new movement pattern to the ball or at full speed tempo. Doing either is getting ahead of yourself. So you were right in doing the away from the range practice first. But - if you are not able to execute it well hitting balls, it just means you need more slow motion work and half speed work before taking it to the ball at full speed. This move takes about two to three weeks of home mirror work at about 20 minutes per day to get ingrained to the level of semi-mastery.

[GeoffDickson]

More slo-mo it is.

[Hstead]

[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1367303259' post='6942369']
After 24hrs of excitement and high expectation and few hours of practice/drills in both the living room and the office, I hit some balls this afternoon.

i started with a few warmup swings and then laid a club on the ground at 45* for a few practice takeaways.

Then I stepped up the plate....Nailed it on the first attempt. The second attempt and the third attempt. Here is a screen grab from swing #1

[attachment=1659581:photo.jpg]


...but could not repeat it for the rest of the session. Not one in another 75 balls or so. Very frustrating to say the least....but at least now I have half a clue which is alot more than what I had yesterday.
[/quote]

I am guessing your right arm is bending too early on the "bad ones". The longer you keep it straight, it is impossible for the club to come inside. Try Jim's image of starting with a slight bend in the right elbow and then push it out dead straight as the everything turns together. The straight arms will force the shoulders and chest to go too, and as your arms move up, with the rotation of the shoulders on their angled plane, all you have to do is set the wrists a little and bingo, you will have it, the arm will not go across the chest too much behind you. That is my guess anyway and how I do it.

[InaSilentWay]

I am keying in on the phrase "You move your arms "around" your FACE and your LINE OF SIGHT in a good golf swing - NOT around your body or your chest" In my version, I feel there is more of a horizontal component to the downswing as I avoid any dropping of the arms and hands and minimize the vertical component at startdown. I've heard hstead and iteach explain that hands moving downward steepens the clubshaft and hands moving outwards shallows the clubshaft. A large portion of the problems golfwrxers have is transitioning with too a clubshaft, resulting in early extension to shallow out the shaft.

Another part of the arm illusion has to do with the path on the downswing, I think. Not sure. So the path of my hands feel outside in on the downswing, which now makes sense because as the hands and arms are raised, they go further from the body and as they lower, they get closer to the body. Stand straight, raise and extend the left arm straight out in front of the left shoulder...the hands are at maximum distance from the body. Lower the arms to in front of the thigh.....hands are at minimum distance from the body. Why wouldn't this be the case with the golf swing? For years I've futilely dried dropping hands and any goofy loops and hip shifts. Ends up with my arms and hands too close to my body too soon and the clubshaft too steep.

My swing feels very over the top, but this may be close to being a more correct golf swing as I am going from shallow to steep instead of the other way around? As I near impact, because my arms are farther out and more in front of my face than I'm used to, my shoulder girdle, pivot and arms swing leftward or else it feels I would miss the ball. It's not conscious...it just happens. My horizontal swing is more pronounced in my driver swing and feels like I will completely mishit or even miss the ball, but I don't. Feels like a lucky guess or swinging blindly because I am not aiming my arms or hands at anything. Another very weird feeling. My swing thoughts are 1)Push the hands and arms away at a 45 degree angle and blend with the pivot 2) Don't open the clubface 3)Swing horizontally, in front of my face on the downswing. No thought of aiming anything at the ball, yet I hit the ball.

Next time I'm on the range, I may have to tone down the over the top part, which I feel I can adjust using my shoulder girdle...less outward. Arms and hands follow.

Hope I didn't get eveything above completely wrong.