The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

Kiwi - thanks for posting that. That video clip was from 14 years ago, and was from the Great Shot! golf school VHS series, later converted to DVD. It is a good general intro to the basic Illusion. The only change I have made over the years since then, because my own understanding of the Illusion has deepened, is that my hands would be lower in height, about mid-sternum height as opposed to face height as in that video, and my hands would be a bit more to right of mid-line.

The new video - which will accompany the e-book on the Illusion - will show that better demonstration, and will cover all of the ramifications on the golf swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='LaterOn61' timestamp='1367434567' post='6952441']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367430989' post='6952015']
That is a great question and clearly demonstrates the power of the Illusion. It shows that you do not understand "dependent arm motion" vs "independent arm motion". In your mind, only "independent arm motion" is possible. And that is simply incorrect. Your shoulder girdle is the base of your Triangle and when it moves, your arms are being moved by it. They are connected to each other, after all.

The solution is either slow the hips or speed up the shoulder girdle or both.
[/quote]
If you speed up the shoulder girdle won't you run the risk of coming over the top?

Sure - every swing change entails some degree of risk. Nature of the game, no? But - if you understand right spine tilt and how that affects shoulder girdle un-coiling, much less of a risk. The tilt basically offsets the horizontal dimension un-coiling of the shoulder girdle. You do both simultaneously. If you just uncoil with no tilt, you are OTT>
[/quote]

[Tenken]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367434777' post='6952467']
Kiwi - thanks for posting that. That video clip was from 14 years ago, and was from the Great Shot! golf school VHS series, later converted to DVD. It is a good general intro to the basic Illusion. The only change I have made over the years since then, because my own understanding of the Illusion has deepened, is that my hands would be lower in height, about mid-sternum height as opposed to face height as in that video, and my hands would be a bit more to right of mid-line.

The new video - which will accompany the e-book on the Illusion - will show that better demonstration, and will cover all of the ramifications on the golf swing.
[/quote]

Jim,

For clarification, in the actual down swing, the "dropping of the rock" and the pivot happen simultaneously, correct?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Tenken' timestamp='1367436534' post='6952623']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367434777' post='6952467']
Kiwi - thanks for posting that. That video clip was from 14 years ago, and was from the Great Shot! golf school VHS series, later converted to DVD. It is a good general intro to the basic Illusion. The only change I have made over the years since then, because my own understanding of the Illusion has deepened, is that my hands would be lower in height, about mid-sternum height as opposed to face height as in that video, and my hands would be a bit more to right of mid-line.

The new video - which will accompany the e-book on the Illusion - will show that better demonstration, and will cover all of the ramifications on the golf swing.
[/quote]

Jim,

For clarification, in the actual down swing, the "dropping of the rock" and the pivot happen simultaneously, correct?
[/quote]
"Drop" means let the arms go down from a blend of Pivot momentum and gravity. "Rock" means tilt your spine to the right. In a real swing - not the drill demo - you do all of those things simultaneously. I am exxagerating the downward "drop" motion in that demo, since so many of my students do the opposite OTT move with their arms.

[sblack5]

Jim.....say you have a bit of pre-swing tilted axis away from the target via a reverse k setup where you are setting the hip and shoulder tilt to a matching angle......would the "rock" still be necessary, or is it also an unconscious happening with the motion because of your dropping the weight of your arms and club to the right? I've found that because of the shallower angle of attack necessitated with the driver that I feel like I'm never consciously leaving my right side. I have yet to end up off balance with this method but cant make very good contact without thinking to hang back a bit with the big club.

is there a drill or something illustrating the downswing in its isolated parts like the original drill of the thread that deals with the push away and backswing?

I'm trying to understand the tilt to the right bit.....can't pivot and do that as a deliberate thing without it hurting the lower back and causing early extension.....

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367404910' post='6949421']
[quote name='GeoffDickson' timestamp='1367398341' post='6949303']
After yesterday's frustration, I had a better go of things today. Today's trial and error was all about getting the club UP:

1. Aggressive wrist c0ck
2. Getting the elbows up (which lead to the next one...)
3. Unglueing the armpits

(A 45* armlift was also attempted on every swing)

To explain firuther

1. I have a minimalist wrist c0ck, which makes getting the club UP a challenge. No wrist c0ck equals a much lower club. So whilst i use the term 'aggressive', the reality is that I may just be finding a 'normal' wrist c0ck.
2. "Elbows up" was just a somewhat desperate effort to get the club UP...and not just rely on elbow bend/wrist c0ck to get the club UP.
3. Whilst trying #2, I had a changed feeling in my armpits. Historically, I think I had my armpits 'shut', or my arms closely pinned to my torso. The net effect is that this makes it difficult to lift the arms UP and easily influence back by the torso rotation. By way of extreme: pin your upper arm to your torso firmly, and now try to lift your ams...you can't. The new feeling has my armpits opening up*, which is essentially a feeling that my arms are lifting. The simplest 'feel' I can share is: show the ball (or your right foot if you want to stay with the 45* feel) your armpits. By showing the ball your armpits, it simply permits the arms to go UP further/faster than what is the case if you keep your upper arm 'glued' to your torso.

* Now I know what some of you are thinking about number 3...somewhere in golf instruction lore there is the concept keeping a credit card or golf glove under your armpits....I suspect that I could still do that even with my new feel....I suspect that my arms were pinned too tight and I am now back to normal 'pressure'.

So from yesterday's despair, I am cautiously optimistic today and looking forward to the journey ahead.
[/quote]

Connection is often mis understood. You certainly do not want arms on chest at all points of the swing, ONLY when your hands are below about waist height. More on this later....
[/quote]

That resonates with what I was feeling yesterday....the armpit starts 'glued', but becomes 'unglued'.

[irish jim]

[quote name='Tenken' timestamp='1367436534' post='6952623']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367434777' post='6952467']
Kiwi - thanks for posting that. That video clip was from 14 years ago, and was from the Great Shot! golf school VHS series, later converted to DVD. It is a good general intro to the basic Illusion. The only change I have made over the years since then, because my own understanding of the Illusion has deepened, is that my hands would be lower in height, about mid-sternum height as opposed to face height as in that video, and my hands would be a bit more to right of mid-line.

The new video - which will accompany the e-book on the Illusion - will show that better demonstration, and will cover all of the ramifications on the golf swing.
[/quote]

Jim,

For clarification, in the actual down swing, the "dropping of the rock" and the pivot happen simultaneously, correct?
[/quote]

[irish jim]

I am still having difficulty with the push away in sync with pivot. As a practice drill, I was wondering if putting the clubhead against the skirting board would be advisable. My problem is moving the arms outside the target line before my shoulder/ chest turns.

[Tenken]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367439584' post='6952923']
Jim.....say you have a bit of pre-swing tilted axis away from the target via a reverse k setup where you are setting the hip and shoulder tilt to a matching angle......would the "rock" still be necessary, or is it also an unconscious happening with the motion because of your dropping the weight of your arms and club to the right? I've found that because of the shallower angle of attack necessitated with the driver that I feel like I'm never consciously leaving my right side. I have yet to end up off balance with this method but cant make very good contact without thinking to hang back a bit with the big club.

is there a drill or something illustrating the downswing in its isolated parts like the original drill of the thread that deals with the push away and backswing?

I'm trying to understand the tilt to the right bit.....can't pivot and do that as a deliberate thing without it hurting the lower back and causing early extension.....
[/quote]

sblack5,

I think we are asking the same question Since I also setup with matching shoulder/hip tilt and weight left, do we still need to "rock" to bump the hip and give the arms time to reconnect, or can we just drop and turn at the same time? Perhaps let the arm drop "first"?

Jim,

Is this pretty much what you are advocating? It seems your swing philosophies is simliar to Monte's.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g[/media]

[Kiwi2]

Here is some more on the Jug McSpaden drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGaKmhKnQRE&feature=youtu.be

[gr8blueheronbird]

Jim or Kiwi, I just had a revelation as I can feel the club weighs practically nothing at the point of transition on the backswing(I have a tendency to tighten grip pressure and forearms when taking a backswing). Why not just start the swing from that point and totally eliminate the backswing(where most people have the tendency to tighten up). It feels good to me just starting at the correct point. Why waste energy when you can start your swing from the top(like the McSpaden fellow) but eliminating everything that gets him to the top of his backswing. I am just swinging the club without hitting balls but will try this on the range. Any thoughts you can lend for this?

[firstbatch]

[quote name='gr8blueheronbird' timestamp='1367445527' post='6953475']
Jim or Kiwi, I just had a revelation as I can feel the club weighs practically nothing at the point of transition on the backswing(I have a tendency to tighten grip pressure and forearms when taking a backswing). Why not just start the swing from that point and totally eliminate the backswing(where most people have the tendency to tighten up). It feels good to me just starting at the correct point. Why waste energy when you can start your swing from the top(like the McSpaden fellow) but eliminating everything that gets him to the top of his backswing. I am just swinging the club without hitting balls but will try this on the range. Any thoughts you can lend for this?
[/quote]

Remember the 2007 GOLF Magazine Article Dr. Suttie & Tomasi ? [url="http://www.golf.com/instruction/no-backswing-swing?page=1"]http://www.golf.com/instruction/no-backswing-swing?page=1[/url]

[filthee]

Man this drill is awesome. Hit a bucket at lunch and compressed the ball as well as I ever have.

It's amazing how easy it is to slip back into 'arms across the body,' even when you're conscious of it.

[gr8blueheronbird]

It just makes sense. Why waste the energy to get the club in the proper position at the top which increases all kinds of variables. This position requires a pump and go but I want the club in the position of neutral as Jim prescribes. The Club feels ready to go when grip pressure is very low and club feels like nothing. I am sure theories can debunk this method but something feels really right about this. Like a snake ready to pounce. Snakes do not take back swings. They pump and go.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367439584' post='6952923']
Jim.....say you have a bit of pre-swing tilted axis away from the target via a reverse k setup where you are setting the hip and shoulder tilt to a matching angle......would the "rock" still be necessary, or is it also an unconscious happening with the motion because of your dropping the weight of your arms and club to the right? I've found that because of the shallower angle of attack necessitated with the driver that I feel like I'm never consciously leaving my right side. I have yet to end up off balance with this method but cant make very good contact without thinking to hang back a bit with the big club.

is there a drill or something illustrating the downswing in its isolated parts like the original drill of the thread that deals with the push away and backswing?

I'm trying to understand the tilt to the right bit.....can't pivot and do that as a deliberate thing without it hurting the lower back and causing early extension.....
[/quote]

I will have to think about that. Spine lateral tilt is a very complex subject - not sure written descriptions would be much help, even in person it is a tough one to coach a student about. I can tell you this - no matter the Setup, tilt is NOT optional. It is required. And for most average golfers, it is a lot more tilt than they have ever used before. As usual, you do have to blend the tilt with the un-coiling in the right ratio.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='irish jim' timestamp='1367441305' post='6953089']
I am still having difficulty with the push away in sync with pivot. As a practice drill, I was wondering if putting the clubhead against the skirting board would be advisable. My problem is moving the arms outside the target line before my shoulder/ chest turns.
[/quote]

Hi Jim - it just means you have to practice more on blending and try to feel like the pivot starts first and then a micro-second later, the arm part. I hate to keep saying this but the real Secret/Answer/Magic Move/Quick Fix is simply Awareness of body and club motion through Feel Channel with a focused mind - and not something mechanical.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Tenken' timestamp='1367441315' post='6953095']
[quote name='sblack5' timestamp='1367439584' post='6952923']
Jim.....say you have a bit of pre-swing tilted axis away from the target via a reverse k setup where you are setting the hip and shoulder tilt to a matching angle......would the "rock" still be necessary, or is it also an unconscious happening with the motion because of your dropping the weight of your arms and club to the right? I've found that because of the shallower angle of attack necessitated with the driver that I feel like I'm never consciously leaving my right side. I have yet to end up off balance with this method but cant make very good contact without thinking to hang back a bit with the big club.

is there a drill or something illustrating the downswing in its isolated parts like the original drill of the thread that deals with the push away and backswing?

I'm trying to understand the tilt to the right bit.....can't pivot and do that as a deliberate thing without it hurting the lower back and causing early extension.....
[/quote]

sblack5,

I think we are asking the same question Since I also setup with matching shoulder/hip tilt and weight left, do we still need to "rock" to bump the hip and give the arms time to reconnect, or can we just drop and turn at the same time? Perhaps let the arm drop "first"?

Jim,

Is this pretty much what you are advocating? It seems your swing philosophies is simliar to Monte's.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g[/media]
[/quote]

We are getting back into asking me questions about Transition, which I am trying desperately not to do, because of my Hippocratic Oath. I teach Transiton in two different ways depending on the skill and talent level of the student. Pro vs Player Model. And in reality it is quite complex and full of illusions and common mis-conceptions. And any accurate answer would have to be like so much of golf instruction - "it depends". I have identifieed Four Swing Styles and although there are more commonalitites than differences, there are enough differences for there to actually be four distinct ways to swing a golf club. Of the four, the one that 90% of tour pros use I call Leveraged Spin Style. And in that Style, the Transiton move is very holistic, ie the downward dimension (arms 'dropping') and the horizontal dimension (shoulders, core and hips and arms from shoulders) are blended seamlessly - mainly from Tilt Switch - that you cant really say one is happening first and then the second, ie sequential motion instead of simultaneous. If your left wrist is on the Turned Shoulder Plane at the Top, you don't need to "wait" for the arms to drop before un-coiling much.

I like Monte's video very much and yes we have very similar swing ideas. He has got the basic sequence right there in a very simple way. Bumping or what I like to call "lateral tailbone shift" is NOT optional - required. But the direction and degree of lateral shift is dependent on which of those Four Styles you are trying to master.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='gr8blueheronbird' timestamp='1367445527' post='6953475']
Jim or Kiwi, I just had a revelation as I can feel the club weighs practically nothing at the point of transition on the backswing(I have a tendency to tighten grip pressure and forearms when taking a backswing). Why not just start the swing from that point and totally eliminate the backswing(where most people have the tendency to tighten up). It feels good to me just starting at the correct point. Why waste energy when you can start your swing from the top(like the McSpaden fellow) but eliminating everything that gets him to the top of his backswing. I am just swinging the club without hitting balls but will try this on the range. Any thoughts you can lend for this?
[/quote]

The starting cold from the Top idea is not new, I recall as a kid in the 60's some guy was teaching it. Jug actually one a tournament or two if I recall correctly with his weird backswing drill. I would say the biggest drawback would be the lack of rhythm to that method. But - whatever works best or the person!

[MK7Golf21]

Jim, Ive noticed with my swing, I have to feel a definite flattening of the shaft from the top into the downswing, ala fowler/garcia. I cant simply just feel like I drop down and turn from the top or I come into the ball steep on a real swing. I know if this is happens with me it probably happens with alot of people who dont even know they are doing it because they dont film their swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='filthee' timestamp='1367454827' post='6954249']
Man this drill is awesome. Hit a bucket at lunch and compressed the ball as well as I ever have.

It's amazing how easy it is to slip back into 'arms across the body,' even when you're conscious of it.
[/quote]

Boy, you are not kidding about slipping back into arms across the body. Even when you are intending to keep the arm to chest angle, the subconscious mind wants to throw it across your chest. I deal with this ten hours everyday in my teaching. It may be the most common Fatal Flaw in the golf swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367461084' post='6954935']
Jim, Ive noticed with my swing, I have to feel a definite flattening of the shaft from the top into the downswing. I cant simply just feel like I drop down and turn from the top or I come into the ball steep on a real swing. I know if this is happens with me it probably happens with alot of people who dont even know they are doing it because they dont film their swing.
[/quote]

Yes - depending on how you Release, you may have to flatten the shaft more than the natural flattening from Tilt Switch and tailbone lateral shift. I have talked about this earlier in the thread. Maybe you are not tilting enough to begin with though? The problem for better players who need to hit the ball a long way in today's game is that shaft flattening - which allows a more aggressifve/faster un-coiliing motion of the chest/shoulder girdle especially with right side really firing strongly, is that you can very easily get "stuck" with the shaft flattening move. And really good players know how toxic and destructive being stuck can be, just ask Tiger. Every good player I have worked with on this issue would trade it in a heartbeat for an OTT pulled shot flaw.

There is a very fine line between flattening enough to be stuck and not flattening at all and being too steep. In our Player model, we favor the not flattening too much side of the equation and in our Pro model, we favor the flattening side.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367461550' post='6955003']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367461084' post='6954935']
Jim, Ive noticed with my swing, I have to feel a definite flattening of the shaft from the top into the downswing. I cant simply just feel like I drop down and turn from the top or I come into the ball steep on a real swing. I know if this is happens with me it probably happens with alot of people who dont even know they are doing it because they dont film their swing.
[/quote]

Yes - depending on how you Release, you may have to flatten the shaft more than the natural flattening from Tilt Switch and tailbone lateral shift. I have talked about this earlier in the thread. Maybe you are not tilting enough to begin with though? The problem for better players who need to hit the ball a long way in today's game is that shaft flattening - which allows a more aggressifve/faster un-coiliing motion of the chest/shoulder girdle especially with right side really firing strongly, is that you can very easily get "stuck" with the shaft flattening move. And really good players know how toxic and destructive being stuck can be, just ask Tiger. Every good player I have worked with on this issue would trade it in a heartbeat for an OTT pulled shot flaw.

There is a very fine line between flattening enough to be stuck and not flattening at all and being too steep. In our Player model, we favor the not flattening too much side of the equation and in our Pro model, we favor the flattening side.
[/quote]

Thanks for explaining that. I know with my swing, that definite flattening/garcia feel puts the shaft on plane in the downswing, it is hard for me to overdo it because I have always had a steep downswing. I would come down steep before and EE, probably the hardest thing Ive had to fix in my swing becaue it never felt like I was doing it. Now I feel a flattening from the top and feel my hips go southwest during the downswing. It results in my shaft coming down on plane and no early extension. The hip movingment is important because it removes the EE and allows me to bring the club around to the left on the following through instead of in to out. IAnyway hope this helps some people out there

btw- thanks for helping fix my backswing again. Still going strong with what you taught in this thread.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367460823' post='6954905']


Bumping or what I like to call "lateral tailbone shift" is NOT optional - required. But the direction and degree of lateral shift is dependent on which of those Four Styles you are trying to master.
[/quote]

Excellent.

[Huddy76]

Can we get this thread pinned ?

[sblack5]

seconded

[Jim Waldron]

The Right Arm Angle Illusion version of this is that the angle in your right arm at the elbow - about 75-90 degrees at the Top, will release mostly in the vertical dimension, ie downward - and very little in the horizontal dimension, unless you are using the Pro Model transition move of shaft flattening, and even then it is still mostly in the downward dimension - like chopping wood with an axe. When you are under the spell of the Illusion, you will release mostly in the horizontal dimension, which can result in big wipe slices or even the opposite, snap hooks, depending on how your forearms rotate as you release the angle.

The reason the clubhead will NOT actually come into the ground on a vertical 90 degree angle is that your Pivot shallows out the angle of attack.

[shankarrific]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/url]. This should clear it up.

[furnman487]

I've been playing(or trying to play) golf for over 40 years and I think I have learned more from this thread than all of the books and lessons combined. While at times playing some decent golf, I never really understood what happens in a correct, repeating swing. The concepts that Jim has explained here make it simple and easy to understand. This is what "effortless power" means. Jim, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.

[Tenken]

Jim,

Any good drill to overcome the hit impulse or "help the ball up" mentality on the downswing? Tried your method at the range yesterday, and I could not believe how difficult it is to "do nothing with the arms".

[firstbatch]

This is how I do it.......

While trying to incorporate this imperative realize first you are trying to establish a new mind body connection, This is accomplished first only via slow motion work and mirror work initially and then you can move on to small swings and then incorporate doing the swing with eyes closed. This will take quite awhile of daily work...you are ingraining a new mind/body habit. It cannot be accomplished taking the intellectual ( conscious) knowledge to the range doing full swings. Sure you can "feel" it on a swing or two....but until this new connection habit replaces your previously wrong habit completely then your subconscious will fight to use your old pattern. This is true in many athletic sporting endeavors. It is the essence of why pro athletes train in their sport.

Doing nothing with the arms is doing something with the core. In the slow speed work learn to feel YOUR new mind body connection to the core. Eventually your subconscious will "get it" and you can go play with it. Depends upon how much work you do. There are some great isometric and dynamic gym exercises to activate dormant cores to get a head start on this effort to replace old poor habits with new proper habits. Done on a daily basis they to will add to and speed up the new connections your are trying to establish between you mind and body.