The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Stryker]

Also, try the feeling of leaving your arms behind when you start your downswing.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='shankarrific' timestamp='1367503608' post='6957109']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/media]. This should clear it up.
[/quote]

One of my favorite quotes came from him at the end of that video......"the arms swing up and down, as the body turns around it's setup angles". If you look at one of the top players that he has worked with in Stuart Appleby since he was 17, you'll see this concept being accomplished about as good as anyone, with an armswing angle that is gold

Lets remember that many times a drill is actually more effective when we don't 'just' try to do it "perfect" in terms of what we want to happen in a real swing,....but instead accentuate the concept or change, knowing what tends to really happen when we are no longer doing the drill.

IMO, So for some players, even though the 45* armswing is the actual ideal, the drill itself can sometimes be more effective for breaking the habit when it's accentuated to a higher angle, like Steve Bann demonstrates in that video

[sblack5]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367500375' post='6956761']
The Right Arm Angle Illusion version of this is that the angle in your right arm at the elbow - about 75-90 degrees at the Top, will release mostly in the vertical dimension, ie downward - and very little in the horizontal dimension, unless you are using the Pro Model transition move of shaft flattening, and even then it is still mostly in the downward dimension - like chopping wood with an axe. When you are under the spell of the Illusion, you will release mostly in the horizontal dimension, which can result in big wipe slices or even the opposite, snap hooks, depending on how your forearms rotate as you release the angle.

The reason the clubhead will NOT actually come into the ground on a vertical 90 degree angle is that your Pivot shallows out the angle of attack.
[/quote]


should be a mandatory read for anyone wanting to improve

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367287388' post='6941275']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1367287088' post='6941237']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1367286924' post='6941215']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367285596' post='6941039']
Correct - that and not actively throwing it away with your muscles in arms and wrists, ie the "doing nothing" part. And this is why mastering the golf swing is hard and takes some practice to get it down. It is very counter-intuitive. Almost no one in 19 years at my golf schools has answered the question about RPM v MPH correctly. They all think that they need to swing the arms faster than the body and the clubhead - from the wrists - faster than the arms.
[/quote]

Whats the RPM v MPH question! and answer haha.
[/quote]

Dan asked me and I got it lol. RPM is everything moving at the same rate, hips, shoulders, chest, arms, hands. The club is moving at a fast mph because it is farthest from the center, but all of the body parts are moving at the same rate, not the same mph. I think I get a shiny toy don't I Jim? Either that or you are going to tell me I am wrong and explain it better lol
[/quote]

Ahh. ty Mr. Heathbro.

So Mr. Waldron, if a student comes in with slow arms catching all that lag pressure what do you do?

I've read stuff from Zach Johnson saying he hits balls feeling like his back stays towards the target on the downswing...or left shoulder stays in place while arms work down. I've tried these and don't really like the feeling triyng to hold something back while swinging. Interested on your view on all this jazz.
[/quote]

I need to have the same feeling on the downswing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1367510276' post='6957987']
[quote name='shankarrific' timestamp='1367503608' post='6957109']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/media]. This should clear it up.
[/quote]

One of my favorite quotes came from him at the end of that video......"the arms swing up and down, as the body turns around it's setup angles". If you look at one of the top players that he has worked with in Stuart Appleby since he was 17, you'll see this concept being accomplished about as good as anyone, with an armswing angle that is gold

Lets remember that many times a drill is actually more effective when we don't 'just' try to do it "perfect" in terms of what we want to happen in a real swing,....but instead accentuate the concept or change, knowing what tends to really happen when we are no longer doing the drill.

IMO, So for some players, even though the 45* armswing is the actual ideal, the drill itself can sometimes be more effective for breaking the habit when it's accentuated to a higher angle, like Steve Bann demonstrates in that video
[/quote]

Yes - as a Swing Map Exaggeration drill. But the lower hands and more right of mid-line is the actual model as of around 2003. It is more accurate in terms of the geometric factors when you add the Pivot and avoids the too steep issues of the original drill.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Stryker' timestamp='1367507280' post='6957579']
Also, try the feeling of leaving your arms behind when you start your downswing.
[/quote]

Yes - one of my favourite qoutes is from Bobby Jones, where he says in response to a question about his downswing, something like "After I shift my hips to the left to start the downswing, I feel like my hands, arms and clubshaft turn to stone, and stay behind near the Top of the backswing, while I make a powerful wrenching motion with my hips and torso."

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='firstbatch' timestamp='1367506955' post='6957527']
This is how I do it.......

While trying to incorporate this imperative realize first you are trying to establish a new mind body connection, This is accomplished first only via slow motion work and mirror work initially and then you can move on to small swings and then incorporate doing the swing with eyes closed. This will take quite awhile of daily work...you are ingraining a new mind/body habit. It cannot be accomplished taking the intellectual ( conscious) knowledge to the range doing full swings. Sure you can "feel" it on a swing or two....but until this new connection habit replaces your previously wrong habit completely then your subconscious will fight to use your old pattern. This is true in many athletic sporting endeavors. It is the essence of why pro athletes train in their sport.

Doing nothing with the arms is doing something with the core. In the slow speed work learn to feel YOUR new mind body connection to the core. Eventually your subconscious will "get it" and you can go play with it. Depends upon how much work you do. There are some great isometric and dynamic gym exercises to activate dormant cores to get a head start on this effort to replace old poor habits with new proper habits. Done on a daily basis they to will add to and speed up the new connections your are trying to establish between you mind and body.
[/quote]

You have an excellent understanding of the issue - very good!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='furnman487' timestamp='1367503921' post='6957151']
I've been playing(or trying to play) golf for over 40 years and I think I have learned more from this thread than all of the books and lessons combined. While at times playing some decent golf, I never really understood what happens in a correct, repeating swing. The concepts that Jim has explained here make it simple and easy to understand. This is what "effortless power" means. Jim, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge.
[/quote]

Thank you, for your feedback! You can understood why I did not sleep the first night when I discovered this, and not much for a few nights after that.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Tenken' timestamp='1367504201' post='6957191']
Jim,

Any good drill to overcome the hit impulse or "help the ball up" mentality on the downswing? Tried your method at the range yesterday, and I could not believe how difficult it is to "do nothing with the arms".
[/quote]

"hitting up" is the Scoop IMpulse, not the Hit Impulse - which has to do with trying to hit the ball a long way with the wrong Power Sources. That topic would have to a whole other thread.

You just have to keep pondering the reality of a downward blow with shaft lean, and maybe work with a Tourstriker, until your subconscious finally "gets it". Scooping Impulse is not easy to overcome for a lot of my students. Me standing there asking them to "hit down - not up" is just blowing hot air to them. The words are not the same thing as the insight. A few years ago I had my toughest case of Scopping, and no training aid or drill was working even a little bit to help her. I went home to my shop that night and placed a golf ball in my vise, and drove a long nail through it, took it out to the range with her the next day, and had her got down prone on her belly so she could see the downward angle of the nail in that ball on the ground. Then I did slow motion swings so she could see my 6 iron approaching the ball/nail going down with shaft lean, and I gently tapped the end of the nail with my 6 iron sweetspot. For like 15 minutes before she really "got it" and could take it to the ball with her swing and not scoop.

And then she looks at me and says (and I am not making this up) "...why didn't you tell me about hitting down before?"

[dawgerPSU]

Jim - How would you incorporate this into shorter shots; lets say 40 to 60 yard half wedges? Same idea with just less arm lift?

[avrag]

When trying to work on this, I felt more and more like I was swinging like Steve Stricker (style, not quality)..
Would this be a good thng?

[joeunc]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1367523347' post='6959389']
When trying to work on this, I felt more and more like I was swinging like Steve Stricker (style, not quality)..
Would this be a good thng?
[/quote]

Although Steve has a more core driven swing, I think there is not as much wrist set in his swing as Jim prescribes, just my guess.

[Jim Waldron]

The best way to see through the Illusion is to have the camera direclty over the golfers head looking downn. Then - in slowm motion - you can see the angle of the left arm to chest form on takeaway, and then get a bit larger to the right of mid-line during second half of backswing, then a bit more from inertia on transition first stage, then a bit toward mid-line on second stage transiton down to P6, then stop moving at all from P6 to impact, and then across mid-line to followthrough.

The second best is from the camera on the ground near the ball looking up at the golfers face. A few years ago Butch did an ad for Winn Grips hitting a bunker shot with the camera in that angle, and it was in slow mo, so you could clearly see the V motion of his arms in front of his chest in his swing.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='dawgerPSU' timestamp='1367523147' post='6959367']
Jim - How would you incorporate this into shorter shots; lets say 40 to 60 yard half wedges? Same idea with just less arm lift?
[/quote]

Yes - for me, my 48 yard L wedge is just past my normal takeaway positon or about 8:15 with the left arm and just a half a wrist c0ck. And almost no arm lift at all,since the right arm is not bending very much at all by 8:15. 30 yard L wedge is my actual takeaway with half a c0ck at about 7:15 with left arm.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1367523347' post='6959389']
When trying to work on this, I felt more and more like I was swinging like Steve Stricker (style, not quality)..
Would this be a good thng?
[/quote]

Yes! Steve is our main tour pro model for the Player model. No real shaft flattening to speak of on transition, keeps it wide and in front of him the whole way. I just prefer a full wrist c0ck for my students, who all need more distance. Steve only uses about a half to 3/4 wrist c0ck.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='joeunc' timestamp='1367523848' post='6959451']
[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1367523347' post='6959389']
When trying to work on this, I felt more and more like I was swinging like Steve Stricker (style, not quality)..
Would this be a good thng?
[/quote]

Although Steve has a more core driven swing, I think there is not as much wrist set in his swing as Jim prescribes, just my guess.
[/quote]

My swing model could not possibly be more "core-driven". When you achieve Doing Nothing with the arms on the forward swing - what is powering the body and club motion? The Core and the Torso/shoulder girdle. And both Pilates and Asian martial arts are two of the really big influences in my teaching, both of which strongly advocate use of the Core.

I often cite the great Roberto de Vicenzo's famous remark when asked about his "swing thought" - "I hit the ball with my stomach!"

In our model, we have a concept called Inner Primary Power Source which is how your conscious mind (and hopefully your subconscious as well) percieves power application on the downswing. In our Player model, meant for average golfers, we recommend using the right side of the shoulder girdle or Torso with strong support "in the background" from the Core and hips rotating. For our Pro Model, it can be the Core itself as the main power source.

You actually hit balls feeling/intending to apply the clubhead to the ball with your right shoulder girdle, as if the club was connected directly to your right shoulder extremity. One way to be less "armsy".

[lobub]

I just want to say I'm so so so so glad I found this thread. My instructor has been trying to get me to a better position at the top since my swing has been really laid off, way too inside, and arms driven. I saw him 4 times last year and pretty much worked on the same thing of getting my arms and hands in the right position during the last 3 sessions. Only problem was he never gave me a good description of what I'm supposed to "feel" on the way back in the backswing. All he could come up with was that I have to be more aware of where my hands are in relation to my head. No matter how much I tried, I just couldn't get my hands in the proper position in a comfortable manner.
It's has been 6 months since I last saw him and I told myself I'm not going back and waste more money just to be told the same thing again.
I saw this thread and it was, as others have said, a "lightbulb" moment.
Pushing my arms away in the backswing felt super weird at first, but it started to click after about 40 minutes of slow and 9/3 swings. Letting the arms drop in the downswing didn't take much time to get used to, although I'll have to check video to see what I really look like. All I can say is I'm now making much more consistent and solid contact with faster clubhead speed.
I managed to get to 9.9 index on a crappy swing - mostly due to short game and putting saving me. I can't wait to get some rounds in to lower it even more!
Thanks to all that have been contributing to this thread!

[Ezgolfer]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367500375' post='6956761']
The Right Arm Angle Illusion version of this is that the angle in your right arm at the elbow - about 75-90 degrees at the Top, will release mostly in the vertical dimension, ie downward - and very little in the horizontal dimension, unless you are using the Pro Model transition move of shaft flattening, and even then it is still mostly in the downward dimension - like chopping wood with an axe. When you are under the spell of the Illusion, you will release mostly in the horizontal dimension, which can result in big wipe slices or even the opposite, snap hooks, depending on how your forearms rotate as you release the angle.

The reason the clubhead will NOT actually come into the ground on a vertical 90 degree angle is that your Pivot shallows out the angle of attack.
[/quote]

This paragraph is so well written....The great thing about jim is ability to communicate,.. explaining these illusions
And able to describe the feels , essence of a great teacher in any field..
Very well stated..
Chopping the wood is what I feel now and a feeling of cramped up somewhat.
My mind finds it hard to believe that I can hit an iron or wood with a downward chop.
But surprisingly I am making very good contact..
Will continue to work on this stuff..
Pre shot rehearsal swings are very helpful.
Chopping the wood ..scissor action...

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1367528663' post='6959971']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367500375' post='6956761']
The Right Arm Angle Illusion version of this is that the angle in your right arm at the elbow - about 75-90 degrees at the Top, will release mostly in the vertical dimension, ie downward - and very little in the horizontal dimension, unless you are using the Pro Model transition move of shaft flattening, and even then it is still mostly in the downward dimension - like chopping wood with an axe. When you are under the spell of the Illusion, you will release mostly in the horizontal dimension, which can result in big wipe slices or even the opposite, snap hooks, depending on how your forearms rotate as you release the angle.

The reason the clubhead will NOT actually come into the ground on a vertical 90 degree angle is that your Pivot shallows out the angle of attack.
[/quote]

This paragraph is so well written....The great thing about jim is ability to communicate,.. explaining these illusions
And able to describe the feels , essence of a great teacher in any field..
Very well stated..
Chopping the wood is what I feel now and a feeling of cramped up somewhat.
My mind finds it hard to believe that I can hit an iron or wood with a downward chop.
But surprisingly I am making very good contact..
Will continue to work on this stuff..
Pre shot rehearsal swings are very helpful.
Chopping the wood ..scissor action...
[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback,Ez. Much appreciated. I had a student here in Hawaii about six years ago who took our five day Complete Golfer School, the last three days of which are a 8 hour a day "boot camp" for learning golf swing fundamentals and de-constructing the golf swing 3D puzzle, with a lot of emphasis on the Illusions. This guy had his biggest light bulb moment of his career working on the Right arm angle and Wrist illusion stuff. Hitting really long and solid 3 woods while really trying to "thump the ground" with the feeling of going straight down with wrists and right arm angle. It was pretty cool to see his reaction - surprise, shock, joy - after so many years of struggling with flipping through impact.

[rustyputterguy]

Jim, I apologize if this has been covered, but any words of wisdom on posture? Do you want to see the super straight back with shoulders back? I'm assuming you don't want to see the shoulders moving forward with the pushing motion, but as a desk jockey who doesn't work out enough, I'm wondering if a less than ideal, rounded shoulders posture is going to be ok.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='rustyputterguy' timestamp='1367529616' post='6960077']
Jim, I apologize if this has been covered, but any words of wisdom on posture? Do you want to see the super straight back with shoulders back? I'm assuming you don't want to see the shoulders moving forward with the pushing motion, but as a desk jockey who doesn't work out enough, I'm wondering if a less than ideal, rounded shoulders posture is going to be ok.
[/quote]

Again, topic for another thread - but I am also a Setup and Posture Nazi. Upper Postural Brace keeps the scapulas retracted a tiny bit, which allows a stable base in the shoulder girdle to push arms away from - also keeps your chin off your chest and your head steady.

[sco3putt]

I went for a lesson today using the arm swing illusion but not telling my instructor. I have been having sucess both on the course and on video. While he said the backswing looked better he saw me turning into my right side less. Is this a accurate, I think it could be. My ballstricking is great so not sure I care.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1367528663' post='6959971']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367500375' post='6956761']
The Right Arm Angle Illusion version of this is that the angle in your right arm at the elbow - about 75-90 degrees at the Top, will release mostly in the vertical dimension, ie downward - and very little in the horizontal dimension, unless you are using the Pro Model transition move of shaft flattening, and even then it is still mostly in the downward dimension - like chopping wood with an axe. When you are under the spell of the Illusion, you will release mostly in the horizontal dimension, which can result in big wipe slices or even the opposite, snap hooks, depending on how your forearms rotate as you release the angle.

The reason the clubhead will NOT actually come into the ground on a vertical 90 degree angle is that your Pivot shallows out the angle of attack.
[/quote]

This paragraph is so well written....The great thing about jim is ability to communicate,.. explaining these illusions
And able to describe the feels , essence of a great teacher in any field..
Very well stated..
Chopping the wood is what I feel now and a feeling of cramped up somewhat.
My mind finds it hard to believe that I can hit an iron or wood with a downward chop.
But surprisingly I am making very good contact..
Will continue to work on this stuff..
Pre shot rehearsal swings are very helpful.
Chopping the wood ..scissor action...
[/quote]

Isn't it ironic that "chopping" at a golf ball can actually be a good thing

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='sco3putt' timestamp='1367540628' post='6960985']
I went for a lesson today using the arm swing illusion but not telling my instructor. I have been having sucess both on the course and on video. While he said the backswing looked better he saw me turning into my right side less. Is this a accurate, I think it could be. My ballstricking is great so not sure I care.
[/quote]

"Turning into the right side" has been pretty much been proven to be somewhat of a myth, in my opinion. You can use a centered Pivot to great success or just a little bit of loading "look" into right side.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1367542173' post='6961153']
[quote name='Ezgolfer' timestamp='1367528663' post='6959971']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367500375' post='6956761']
The Right Arm Angle Illusion version of this is that the angle in your right arm at the elbow - about 75-90 degrees at the Top, will release mostly in the vertical dimension, ie downward - and very little in the horizontal dimension, unless you are using the Pro Model transition move of shaft flattening, and even then it is still mostly in the downward dimension - like chopping wood with an axe. When you are under the spell of the Illusion, you will release mostly in the horizontal dimension, which can result in big wipe slices or even the opposite, snap hooks, depending on how your forearms rotate as you release the angle.

The reason the clubhead will NOT actually come into the ground on a vertical 90 degree angle is that your Pivot shallows out the angle of attack.
[/quote]

This paragraph is so well written....The great thing about jim is ability to communicate,.. explaining these illusions
And able to describe the feels , essence of a great teacher in any field..
Very well stated..
Chopping the wood is what I feel now and a feeling of cramped up somewhat.
My mind finds it hard to believe that I can hit an iron or wood with a downward chop.
But surprisingly I am making very good contact..
Will continue to work on this stuff..
Pre shot rehearsal swings are very helpful.
Chopping the wood ..scissor action...
[/quote]

Isn't it ironic that "chopping" at a golf ball can actually be a good thing
[/quote]

Actually you don't really chop at the "ball" - if you are working on the downward dimension of wrists un-c0cking, your aiming point for the clubhead is on your toe line, basically where the club would hit the ground if you fully un-c0cked at P6 without pivoting at all. The Pivot brings the Low Point forward to a bit target-side of the ball.

[Jim Waldron]

Here is another factor influenced by the Illusion. How your clubhead geometry is affectied by the blend of downward and outward dimension from wrist and right arm un-c0cking with your Pivot. If your "down Force" outpaces your "around Force" you will the ball fat and the starting line direction will be to the right of the target line - assuming face angle is square to your path. If the opposite - your ball contact will be thin and the start line will be left of the target line.

The beauty of this is that you now have only factor affecting both solidness of contact and start line direction - the blending or timing issue. NOT a mechanics issue, ONLY a timing issue. On a poor shot, you are either going to be too fast with your Pivot or too slow with your release - or a blend of both, if your shots are thin and/or pulled, and the opposite for fat and/or pushed. Assuming a face square to path of course.

You can adjust the timing of your wrist c0ck release by changing your grip pressure and the speed of your Pivot and how early/late your Left Wall forms, ie firming up of left leg/hip decel/scissors action during Pivot Thrust. A faster overall Pivot speed creates more lagpressure on your wrists, delaying their release. Opposite for slower pivot speeds.

Tighter grip pressure = a later release, lighter = earlier.

You can adjust your Pivot tempo by slowing down or speeding up the rotation of the hips, core or shoulder girdle, singly or in any combination.

This is vitally important information if you tend to struggle with a two-way miss.

[Jim Waldron]

Here is something I posted about the Arm Swing Illusion on Manzella's site in 2006, regarding Hogan and the arms in front concept.



Jefy, I agree with most of your observations. Not the same swing. Although it is possible to keep your elbows fairly close together - although not in the extreme way that Bertrand advocates - and move your arms across to the right side of your chest, if you are reasonably flexible. Endomoprh body types the exception.

Hogan did not move his right elbow away from his left elbow the way Hardy claims. It' an optical illusion, part of what I call the Arm Swing Illusion. Closer inspection reveals the truth. Obviously the right elbow moves in the vertical dimension quite a bit away from the left elbow as it bends to roughly 75-90 degrees. It is the horizontal dimension that Hogan and Schlee were concerned about and Hogan does a pretty good job of keeping that distance between the elbows the same, certainly not exactly the same, and his pain and stiffness from the accident clearly had a role to play here as he admitted to Schlee.

Hogan taught Schlee to keep the arms in front of the chest as Schlee reported in Maximum Golf. That phrase DOES NOT MEAN keeping your arms in line with the mid-line of your torso as many golf teachers and players mistakenly believe. It means not stuck behind you. A good arm swing measured from the left arm achieves a 45 degree angle to the shoulder girdle on takeaway and either maintains that same angle or close to it with the shorter clubs, the longer clubs it will expand to around 70-80 degrees due to the energy from the flatter shoulder pivot leaking into the arm swing.

Hogans arms were not stuck behind him as Hardy claims in his book. His left arm was close to what I believe is the maximum though, about 80 degrees with his driver, which matches his shorter height and extreme flexibility.

We never learn from either book exactly how much time Schlee actually spent with Hogan in learning mode. And certainly Schlees' take on Hogans ideas in some respects does not match what Hogan did in his own swing. The usual problem of two brains trying to talk to each other, information gets lost in the translation.

Jim Waldron

[Jim Waldron]

Here is a longer and much more detailed explanation I posted a few years ago.

"This is a complex issue, the core of which I call The Arm Swing Illusion - if there was one true mechanical "secret" to better ballstriking, this would be it. It is the cornerstone of the Balance Point Swing Model. But - it is a complex concept, not easily understood by most golfers, or even most teaching professionals. The OP does not quite have it right as his arm position is too centered to the body mid-line or just a tiny bit to the right of mid-line, and his arms go up too much independently . Greg is incorrect in stating that that there is "no up" - of course there is an "up" motion with the arms, and in two distinct ways - the arms move a little bit independently in the vertical dimension along with dependent vertical motion due to the shoulder girdle rotation on the spine angle. Always a blend of both causes. But I understand why he would say that there is no "up" for a student who had too much "up" and especially too much "in" in terms of independent arm motion.

The big missing puzzle piece of both videos is the "outward" motion of the arms. About four to six inches of hand travel in the "width" dimension during Takeaway is ideal.

So - the most accurate depiction of proper arm motion on the backswing - independently - is "away" from the chest, like shaking hands, but on a 45 degree angle to the right (angle relative to shoulder girdle), for four to six inches, during Takeaway, blending into second half of backswing with a vertical raising of the upper arms off the chest, of about eight inches to fourteen inches (depending on your body type, height and flexibility), measured at the level of the hands. If you measure from the middle of the upper arm, it is just a few inches of upward motion.

That is much, much less arm travel than the average golfer realizes. The Arm Swing Illusion creates the impulse to move the arms independently in the horizontal dimension, and with way too much range of motion.

The OP will struggle with his problem until his subconscious mind truly "gets it ", ie deeply understands the proper arm motion. And that means deeply seeing through the Illusion.

Poor understanding of how power is both created and applied is also part of this issue. Golfers who believe the arms supply most of the power will always suffer from this incorrect and disconnected arm motion Fatal Flaw and along with that, will usually show a very weak Pivot motion, especially on the forward swing.

There are only two kinds of golfers in the world - those who hit the ball with a disconnected, sideways or horizontal arm motion or "arm slap" while their Pivot is stalling and those who hit the ball with connected to the torso upper arms and a fast unwinding Pivot Thrust that continues to accelerate post-impact."



Another quote from Jim Waldron

"My swing model is based on a very powerful optical illusion I have termed the Arm Swing Illusion. We are hard-wired to "think" in visual pictures in two-dimensions mainly. Even to "see" the external world in mostly two-dimensions. A kind of lazy way of looking at the world. Looking at photos or computer screen or tv screen videos we are missing the third spatial dimension. (Unless using the new 3d technology!) The Arm Swing Illusion is the false perception that a big part - the main part really - of a golf swing is the sideways across the chest and around the body swinging motion of the arms, hands and club - originating in the upper arm joints. This Illusion has several primary causes, and several sub-set Illusions having to do with the elbows and wrists. The steady head and thus the Fixed Line of Sight is one of the main causes of the Illusion.

Whether viewed from the golfer's first person perspective looking down at the arms, hands, golf club and ball at address and during the swing, or looking at the golfer from the second person perspective, we "see" that sideways arm-swinging motion. It is so "obviously true" that almost no one thinks to question it's validity. It is thus an unquestioned premise that fuels much of the conflicting swing theories and is responsible for so much of the difficulty that golfers have in understanding and executing an effective golf swing motion.

First - to understand the proper Mechanics of the upper arm motion in the effective golf swing, you need to isolate that motion from the Pivot motion. Even though in an actual golf swing, there needs to be a perfect blend or synchronization of the two. When blended, the Illusion makes it impossible to see and understand what the proper arm motion truly is. So we will zero out the Pivot in the following example. What I am describing is in no way an exaggeration of the proper arm motion. It is exactly what must occur in a good golf swing to have an on plane club shaft and a body and arms that are working in harmony.

IF - a really big if - you start at Address, and DO NOT turn your body as you normally would, how would you demonstrate your arm swing motion? 99% of my students when asked to do this, move their arms sideways to their right across their chest and toward the side of their body, with a lot of right elbow bend, kind of a very big version of the arm motion in their pendulum putting stroke. I say this is incorrect and would create a way too much inside the plane takeaway when coupled with a normal 45 degrees or so of torso turn on the takeaway like in a real golf swing. Add the turn and you will see what I mean.

The proper arm motion - again when not turning the body at all - would be toward the target line, in front of your torso, but on a 45 degree angle relative to your shoulder girdle. If your left arm was held out in front of you directly in line with your armpit as if you were shaking hands in front of your with someone standing on the target line with the golf ball between his feet, lets call that zero degrees of angle. Now move your left upper arm to your right till you attain a 45 degree angle with your shoulder girdle. The arm should be about waist high off of the ground. That is the correct direction and angle of left arm motion. Your left hand is now more or less in line with your right shoulder extremity. Right arm motion is similar since they move as a unit in a good golf swing.

Second half of backswing the right elbow folds to about 90 degrees of bend in the vertical dimension, which raises the left arm a bit toward the sky. That is the Top of your backswing in terms of independent arm motion. If you just turn your torso from there - without letting your arms move independently even a tiny bit - while maintaining your original forward spine angle, turning the shoulder girdle 90 degrees to your spine- you will arrive in the actual Top of backswing position. (I have obviously excluded wrist c0ck and hinge in this example to keep this as simple as possible).

The 45 degree left arm to shoulder angle will stay the same roughly on the wedge swings as you reach the Top, but the angle will expand as the clubs get longer during second half of backswing due to some momentum from the torso Pivot leaking into the upper arm joints, i.e a driver will be 45 degree angle at end of takeaway but about 75 degrees at the Top.

The right arm has to bend because the 45 degree angle motion of the left arm makes the left side of the triangle, i.e. the left am, in effect "longer". The right arm has to "give" to create space for that "longer" left arm. If it bends in the horizontal dimension, you have "warped your triangle" and moved the arms and clubs too much inside or behind you, "stuck". If the elbow bends in the vertical dimension, you have effectively shortened the right arm to make room for the longer left arm BUT the horizontal distance between the two elbows has remained the same or nearly the same. Your triangle is still intact - one of Hogans big Rules, by the way. Endomorph body types will have to let the right elbow bend some in the horizontal dimension in order to achieve a decent amount of shoulder turn however.

Starting with two of our Three Arm Pressures - sideways equal opposing triangle pressure along with stretch and extension pressure - is the Secret to controlling the arm motion and achieving in intact triangle. Then your arm motion will stop just as your shoulder girdle reaches maximum coil/range of motion at the Top, or just a micro-second earlier than that point. Your arms and body will be synchronized. Which makes it more likely that they will remain so during the entire forward swing.

To be blunt and as concrete as possible - this is the polar opposite direction of natural arm motion that 100% of mid to high handicap golfers make in their golf swings. Tour pros push their arms away from their torso and never pull their arms in toward their torso. The arms do re-connect during Transition but not because of the upper arms pulling in and down or the biceps pulling in either. Forces generated by the Pivot and weight transfer during Transition cause the arms to re-connect to the torso."

[telebob]

My profuse and profound thanks to you Jim for taking so much time to explain your insights here. I would completely understand if you chose to keep this stuff (at least your explanations of it) proprietary. I will add my voice to those asking for a sticky, although I haven't seen the thread fall below the top half of the first page since Kiwi started it.

As for myself, I've yet to have my "light bulb" moment, but feel rather like an Inuit at the tail end of Winter. Each day, there comes a brightness on the southern horizon, each day it gets brighter and lasts longer, and each day I think surely this day the sun will rise. Alas, the brief periods of illumination end, and the world falls back into darkness. And yet, tomorrow the horizon will brighten once more, more intensely and for longer than today. I know this as surely as the Inuit who has watched the seasons turn through all of the years of his life.

So I check back in here each night (and each day when I should be concentrating on my work) and lo! A new insight from Jim or Monte or Kiwi or sblack or another fellow traveler, and off to the range I go. Yesterday I thought of my takeaway as a scoop/push and realized that was what Monte had meant when he suggested I raise my hands and set my wrists earlier. Today I chopped wood with my 60* wedge and felt my arms moving up in a V shape and down/through in a U as my hips and shoulders rotated around my spine. And the balls flew beautifully. After sunset tonight, I made some almost blind swings and started to see my swing happening in 3 dimensions. I still spray the ball all over the place, skull 4, fat 3, and sh**k 2 balls per 50; I pull my best strikes 10-20 yards right (yeah, lefty here) and throw away my leverage more often than not, but slowly, slowly, the sun is rising. Thank you.

[Jim Waldron]

Nice to hear that it is helping you, Telebob. It does take some practice time to get the coordination down - like rubbing your tummy and patting your head.

For 600 years, the golf swing has been described by various teachers, tour pros and pundits as primarily dominated by either arms, or by the hands/wrists or body.

I am postulating that all three of those viewpoints are woefully lacking, like the parable of the blind men first encountering an elephant: one grabbed the trunk and proclaimed "this is a snake!", the next touched his feet and said "this is a rhinoceros!, another grabbed it's tail and said "this is a horse!".

In truth, the golf swing is a three-dimensional jigsaw puzzle that requires coordination of arms, body and wrists, and like baking a cake, you need the right "recipe" with the right proportion of each ingredient to have a good tasting cake. When the blending is way off, your cake will "fall" before the baking is complete or at best it will taste terrible.

For 600 years golfers have struggled with the mechanics of the golf swing, as if it was a deep mystery that could not be solved. It has been solved - and the solution is seeing through the Arm Swing and related Illusions. Then you have total clarity about what must be done with each major body part and also how to blend each in the right dimension of motion so that you end up with a whole swing motion that creates long and accurate golf shots.

The only remaining issues then are learning to swing in rock solid Balance - no Illusions there! - and in good timing.