The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[peacedog]

Have a question about shorter shots; pitches and chips. Do you change your stance at all for this? Backswing? Thanks

[Cwebb]

This is my favorite topic about the golf swing. Great stuff Jim!

Is Stuart Appleby an example on tour of someone who does all, or most of the things that you're looking for in a takeaway?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNRs9Vcxkg&list=PL6827351E138B76D6"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNRs9Vcxkg&list=PL6827351E138B76D6[/url]

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367130449' post='6930783']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok
[/quote]

Tmac - I took the time to look at a few more of your swings. Really a very good action - I do not see any major across the line at the Top issue. Almost everyone - including tour pros - could use a bit more triangle structure, at the Top especially - and the arm pressures I mentioned is the way to acheive that. Your tilts and pivot are excellent. I am guessing a plus 3 to plus 5 if your short game, mental game and putting are equally as good?
[/quote]

Tmac, agree with Jim. Great action, no across line. If you are looking for something small that might help link things up...

Your hip action is a little level to the ground on downswing. Get a sense right hip works down a little more...or left hip works up a little more on downswing and see if that helps anything.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367166506' post='6932075']
Have a question about shorter shots; pitches and chips. Do you change your stance at all for this? Backswing? Thanks
[/quote]

Narrower and open, backswing is the same, just smaller in length of pivot and length and height of arm pushaway. No wrist c0ck in chipping. You still deliver clubhead to ball with spiral-shaped un-coiling of the Pivot - not independent arm motion.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1367166639' post='6932081']
This is my favorite topic about the golf swing. Great stuff Jim!

Is Stuart Appleby an example on tour of someone who does all, or most of the things that you're looking for in a takeaway?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNRs9Vcxkg&list=PL6827351E138B76D6"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYNRs9Vcxkg&list=PL6827351E138B76D6[/url]
[/quote]

Yeah, I love Stuart's action - very simple. He blends the arm pushaway, wrist set and pivot very well indeed.

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367115406' post='6929995']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

[media=]http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok[/media]
[/quote]

its because your left arm is a little inside going back. see at halfway back your left arm isnt pointing in a straight line, its inside. It almost feels like your left arm goes out from you in a 45 degree angle starting the backswing, If you left arm goes out, it wont be able to go across the line to the right, it will go straight up and back slightly so it will point more left.at the top

Think of it this way, c0ck the club at a 90 degree angle from your left hand and put your left arm inside halfway into the backswing, then just lift it straight up from there over your shoulder almost-- it will point to the right since your left arm was inside.

Now do the opposite, c0ck the club at a 90 degree angle from your left arm and get into your address position, stick your left arm out 45 degrees from your chest halfway into the backswing, then just lift it from there, it will go left (btw-it will feel 45 degrees out from your chest, but it will be in a straight line on plane) like Jim said thats the illusion
[/quote]

Im a bit confused because the best ball strikers in the world, and even Dan's students and Dan himself, have left arm in hang halfway back. It also seems like it'd be a huge disconnect from the body and the clubshaft would be well above and outside the plane line going back. This is a video of me kinda overdoing it but what sounds like you're explaining. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

http://youtu.be/-7XrYq9i-Ms

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='gr8blueheronbird' timestamp='1367154039' post='6931375']
Jim, I believe you mean "east of the Mississippi" and "east of the Rockies".
[/quote]

Yeah, of course, thanks for correcting me - this is what happens to a 61 year old on meds for root canal and up with insomnia in Hawaii in the middle of the night...

[t_mac1213]

Tmac, agree with Jim. Great action, no across line. If you are looking for something small that might help link things up...

Your hip action is a little level to the ground on downswing. Get a sense right hip works down a little more...or left hip works up a little more on downswing and see if that helps anything.


I just get annoyed with the steep clubshaft in the transition and the super deep divots that follow it. I can't hit a draw to save my life with Driver. I appreciate the info tho on the downswing. I've never thought much about that. THank you!

[Jim Waldron]

Im a bit confused because the best ball strikers in the world, and even Dan's students and Dan himself, have left arm in hang halfway back. It also seems like it'd be a huge disconnect from the body and the clubshaft would be well above and outside the plane line going back. This is a video of me kinda overdoing it but what sounds like you're explaining. Correct me if I'm wrong please.



Yes - that was a huge disconnect. Your confusion arises because your mind has trouble "picturing" two different body motions - arms and pivot - that should be occcuring SIMULTANEOUSLY. Our brains are hard-wired to "picture" things in 2D and only one thing at time. In other words, you did not blend the two things with good timing and speed in that demo. Your arms started first, and then your pivot kicked-in, and so the shaft was way outside the ideal plane. If you had done your pivot at the same time as your arms, you would look like the new Tiger, or Mahan, or Rose or any number of tour pros who take it back pretty much on plane. If you had started with your pivot, and delayed your arm pushaway for more than a tiny fraction of a seond, the opposite would occur - your shaft would be inside the ideal plane.

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367130449' post='6930783']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107883' post='6929333']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?
[/quote]

[media=]http://youtu.be/fZwk7rhD4Ok[/media]
[/quote]

Tmac - I took the time to look at a few more of your swings. Really a very good action - I do not see any major across the line at the Top issue. Almost everyone - including tour pros - could use a bit more triangle structure, at the Top especially - and the arm pressures I mentioned is the way to acheive that. Your tilts and pivot are excellent. I am guessing a plus 3 to plus 5 if your short game, mental game and putting are equally as good?
[/quote]

Jim,

I wish! I'm struggling to keep it in the high 70s at the moment. No three putts, and descent at getting up and down. Not hitting enough fairways or greens IMO

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367173699' post='6932481']
Im a bit confused because the best ball strikers in the world, and even Dan's students and Dan himself, have left arm in hang halfway back. It also seems like it'd be a huge disconnect from the body and the clubshaft would be well above and outside the plane line going back. This is a video of me kinda overdoing it but what sounds like you're explaining. Correct me if I'm wrong please.



Yes - that was a huge disconnect. Your confusion arises because your mind has trouble "picturing" two different body motions - arms and pivot - that should be occcuring SIMULTANEOUSLY. Our brains are hard-wired to "picture" things in 2D and only one thing at time. In other words, you did not blend the two things with good timing and speed in that demo. Your arms started first, and then your pivot kicked-in, and so the shaft was way outside the ideal plane. If you had done your pivot at the same time as your arms, you would look like the new Tiger, or Mahan, or Rose or any number of tour pros who take it back pretty much on plane. If you had started with your pivot, and delayed your arm pushaway for more than a tiny fraction of a seond, the opposite would occur - your shaft would be inside the ideal plane.
[/quote]

Gotcha! That was brought to my attention by my good buddy Tyler D. I was just confused by the last gentlemen who told me I shouldn't have left arm in hang. I'm pretty sure at this point my issues arise in the second half of the backswing into the transition. I need to really get the clubshaft shallow instead of steep because thats where the hack shots come in, you should see my wedge divots

[Jim Waldron]

Jim,

I wish! I'm struggling to keep it in the high 70s at the moment. No three putts, and descent at getting up and down. Not hitting enough fairways or greens IMO



I would suggest checking your grip, and grip pressure then. You overall body motion is very good, but it is very easy to lose clubface control due to grip or grip pressure issues. Also - maybe time for a club change and a really good dynamic fitting?

And of course the one thing that is hardly ever really discussed in depth on this forum - the power of mental focus and how that affects the golf swing, ie how the lack of it tends to make one flinch.

Are your range ball flight results much better than on course? That is the number one sign of mental focus issues.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1367154018' post='6931371']
haha I understand. The Arm Swing illusion is very interesting to me. I started playing golf and baseball at 7-8 years old and the transition from one season to another always messed me up. Due to continuing in baseball through school it really made me an arm swinger with fast hips. I play to a +1 but I get in trouble as the hips fire before my backswing is complete getting the club stuck behind me a bit causing a forced rotation of my forearms to square the clubhead. Obviously this leads to inconsistency based on timing. But I tried yesterday hitting the ball using this illusion info and it was very interesting. I essentially tried to feel as if the club was simply lifting while maintaiing the same distance from my body while rotating back. It was odd but I actually hit the ball well. Now I know I wasn't doing it completely right just kind of a mind blower in terms of not swinging my arms yet still hitting the positions.

ALso felt like I had more room in the swing if that makes sense. Been working with Dan on some of these things and so far so good. Tough to overcome though
[/quote]

Your feelings and feedback are spot on. When you keep the arms and club in front of the right side of your chest when learning these concepts, and like 99% of golfers, you have been "stuck" for whatever reason, in your case too fast hips causing too much lagpressure on the arms, it actually feels like they are in line with mid-line of your chest and feels like your hands are about six feet away from your chest. Really weird feelings! Of course, not real but it just proves how powerful the Illusion is. Yeah - the more room part is NOT an illusion, that is reality, you now have "space" for your shoulder girdle to un-wind and pull the arms under your steady head that is tipped forward from forward spine angle, kind of a more under and around to your left feeling with just a touch of "up" feeling as opposed to under and up feeling like when a good player trys to get "un-stuck". The poor player will feel "out and over" since they come badly OTT with the horizontal dimension shoulder girdle un-winding and outward arm and wrist motions.

Having "space" is a really big issue and one of my key swing coaching principles.

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367174228' post='6932517']
Jim,

I wish! I'm struggling to keep it in the high 70s at the moment. No three putts, and descent at getting up and down. Not hitting enough fairways or greens IMO



I would suggest checking your grip, and grip pressure then. You overall body motion is very good, but it is very easy to lose clubface control due to grip or grip pressure issues. Also - maybe time for a club change and a really good dynamic fitting?

And of course the one thing that is hardly ever really discussed in depth on this forum - the power of mental focus and how that affects the golf swing, ie how the lack of it tends to make one flinch.

Are your range ball flight results much better than on course? That is the number one sign of mental focus issues.
[/quote]

I def need to get fitted for sure! I go back and forth from neutral grip to a hair stronger.... ballflights are the same from range to course, hit it pretty low especially with long irons.

[t_mac1213]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367128570' post='6930729']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?

First, a little across the line at the Top is no way a flaw. A lot - yes. You need to know when to stop moving your arms upwards and you need width or arm stretch/extension pressure in your arms to create and maintain your Triangle structure. Sideways pressure or gently squeezing your arms toward each other laterally, with equal opposing pressure, from armpits to fingertips. Then your arms will stop going up and will never go "in" toward you as you reach the Top at same moment your chest reaches max coil or just before that point. Across the line is also caused by too big an arm to chest angle, ie max is 75 degrees with a driver, 45 with a wedge.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Jim,

Could you shed a little more light on the equal opposing pressures you were referring to?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367175139' post='6932569']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367128570' post='6930729']
[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367107662' post='6929309']
[quote name='Redjeep83' timestamp='1367087560' post='6928015']
Jim, thanks for sharing this. The backswing just clicked for me on the range today using this, I use to struggle with taking the club more out until I read this thread. This also helped the club from getting across the line at the top (right) at the top. Its true, this is the backswing Tiger, Rose etc are using.
[/quote]

you mind if I pick your brain real quick. I too get it across the line and havent had much change even after "attempting" the arm swing movement suggested by Jim. Anything you zoned on specifically that might help a fellow across the liner?

First, a little across the line at the Top is no way a flaw. A lot - yes. You need to know when to stop moving your arms upwards and you need width or arm stretch/extension pressure in your arms to create and maintain your Triangle structure. Sideways pressure or gently squeezing your arms toward each other laterally, with equal opposing pressure, from armpits to fingertips. Then your arms will stop going up and will never go "in" toward you as you reach the Top at same moment your chest reaches max coil or just before that point. Across the line is also caused by too big an arm to chest angle, ie max is 75 degrees with a driver, 45 with a wedge.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Jim,

Could you shed a little more light on the equal opposing pressures you were referring to?
[/quote]

Stand normally and extend both arms to chest height. Touch your open hands together, palm to palm. Gently press both arms toward each other with equal
pressure from armpits to fingertips. That is Hogan's famous Triangle pressure. It is very subtle, very gentle, and almost imperceptible when you use the right amount of pressure. It is a fundamental to all golf shots, including putting, in fact it may be the single most important key to a good arms/shoulder putting stroke. It creates a kind of cohesive tension or structure to your arms so that they behave more like spokes on a wheel instead of wet noodles with a mind of their own.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='t_mac1213' timestamp='1367174975' post='6932553']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367174228' post='6932517']
Jim,

I wish! I'm struggling to keep it in the high 70s at the moment. No three putts, and descent at getting up and down. Not hitting enough fairways or greens IMO



I would suggest checking your grip, and grip pressure then. You overall body motion is very good, but it is very easy to lose clubface control due to grip or grip pressure issues. Also - maybe time for a club change and a really good dynamic fitting?

And of course the one thing that is hardly ever really discussed in depth on this forum - the power of mental focus and how that affects the golf swing, ie how the lack of it tends to make one flinch.

Are your range ball flight results much better than on course? That is the number one sign of mental focus issues.
[/quote]

I def need to get fitted for sure! I go back and forth from neutral grip to a hair stronger.... ballflights are the same from range to course, hit it pretty low especially with long irons.
[/quote]

Your shaft does not look super-steep in those vids. You can always shallow it out by right elbow moving toward left on Transition or tilting from mid-spine to right more, or bowing left wrist. But I wonder if your lie angles may be too upright for you if you feel you are digging too much?

[Jim Waldron]

A couple of other points that some of you might find useful to know. More about the overall process of learning and training than the Illusion itself.

One - I have taught the Illusion material to several thousand golf school and lesson students since January of 1997. It has withstood the test of time, it has helped my students lower their scores and win tournaments. It is not some bs theory that I made up in my spare time so that I could debate people in Internet golf forums. The principle has been an integral part of my golf swing teaching practrice for over 16 years. Once you can actually see through the Illusion, light bulbs will start going off like crazy in both your conscious and subconscious minds, and you greatly increase the probability of making a synchronized body and arm motion, which is the Really Big Deal in the golf swing.

But - it is NOT a "magic move" that is "guaranteed to knock 12 strokes off your golf score!". It is NOT marketing hype. If your setup, grip, grip pressure, tempo, piovot motion, wrist action, aim and balance are off the charts terrible - it probably not going to help you very much, if at all. At least not right away, until you fix those other very essential issues.

I say this because so much of modern golf culture has embraced marketing concepts so unquestioningly (and not just golf culture, our entire mainstream culture) that many golfer can no longer distinguish between marketing hype and truth.

I am discussing this concept now on this forum in a much more intensive and detailed fashion than I have in the past on this and other forums, because many of my students have convinced me that the time is right. Sixteen years ago - if there had been a Web and forums like this - I would have been laughed out of the room so to speak, for talking about the Illusion.

In my opinion and coaching experience, the Illusion concepts are as objectively true and real as the Law of Gravity. The Light Bujlb Moment literally takes only a moment to achieve understanding, a flash of insight. Taking it to the next level of installing it into your actual golf swing movement patterns does take some time to achieve to a high level of execution for most golfers. Seeing immediate and dramatic ball flight improvement will happen for some, and for others it will take some time in practice before they see those positive results.

In other words, the golf swing is a lot more complex than the Arm Swing Illusion alone - a lot more complex.

[gr8blueheronbird]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367173347' post='6932461']
[quote name='gr8blueheronbird' timestamp='1367154039' post='6931375']
Jim, I believe you mean "east of the Mississippi" and "east of the Rockies".
[/quote]

Yeah, of course, thanks for correcting me - this is what happens to a 61 year old on meds for root canal and up with insomnia in Hawaii in the middle of the night...
[/quote]Hey, At least you are in "paradise"! Hawaii in the winter and spring and Oregon in the summer is just about perfect! Go West young man!

[Jim Waldron]

Yeah - I have nothing to compalin about, in the Where I Live department. I have only one thing in common with Superman - I need my Fortress of Solitude, and I am very lucky to have two, one on the beach on the North Shore of Oahu and one in the Wallowa mountains of Oregon.

But my tooth still hurts!

[peacedog]

Glad you are sharing. One issue I have always had with golf is the 'swing secret revealed' 'magic move' mindset. There is nothing magical about it and even when you figure it out you still have to work at it and then if you don't have good fundamentals it won't matter. It's why I stopped my subscription to golf digest and watching the golf fix and trying every little 'tip' mentioned on forums. It is one thing I really like about Dan (iteach) he says it is all determined on an individual's skills and size. A 'tip' may very well work for one person, but it could be detrimental to another. I appreciate those like Slicefixer, Dan, Monte, and yourself that are willing to cut through the crap and really help people get better.

I have had a few lightbulb moments over the years. But nothing that went off quite like the arm swing illusion for me this weekend. Luckily I have a good grip, set up, and posture or else there is no way I could have sorted through it myself. Also the foundation had been laid in the fall when the instructor I went to had me take the club back in a similar fashion. As I mentioned he didn't explain why and therefore I couldn't wrap my head around it. Dan's thread with his right arm straightening drill really helped as well as Monte's continual advice about lag. It all came at the right time for me. I still have a lot of work to do. But really for the first time I feel that I can do it and know how and why to fix things if it gets off.

One of the problems with our society is we want to have it all now. We don't want to have to put in the necessary time, we want a shorcut, we want a 'tip' that changes everything for us. It's why golf is marketed as it is. Sure there are those moments when an alteration in some aspect of the swing can make all the difference, but for the most part it takes a lot of work to be good and stay good. Thanks for helping wade through the illusions and get us seeing what is really there.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367188218' post='6933509']
Glad you are sharing. One issue I have always had with golf is the 'swing secret revealed' 'magic move' mindset. There is nothing magical about it and even when you figure it out you still have to work at it and then if you don't have good fundamentals it won't matter. It's why I stopped my subscription to golf digest and watching the golf fix and trying every little 'tip' mentioned on forums. It is one thing I really like about Dan (iteach) he says it is all determined on an individual's skills and size. A 'tip' may very well work for one person, but it could be detrimental to another. I appreciate those like Slicefixer, Dan, Monte, and yourself that are willing to cut through the crap and really help people get better.

I have had a few lightbulb moments over the years. But nothing that went off quite like the arm swing illusion for me this weekend. Luckily I have a good grip, set up, and posture or else there is no way I could have sorted through it myself. Also the foundation had been laid in the fall when the instructor I went to had me take the club back in a similar fashion. As I mentioned he didn't explain why and therefore I couldn't wrap my head around it. Dan's thread with his right arm straightening drill really helped as well as Monte's continual advice about lag. It all came at the right time for me. I still have a lot of work to do. But really for the first time I feel that I can do it and know how and why to fix things if it gets off.

One of the problems with our society is we want to have it all now. We don't want to have to put in the necessary time, we want a shorcut, we want a 'tip' that changes everything for us. It's why golf is marketed as it is. Sure there are those moments when an alteration in some aspect of the swing can make all the difference, but for the most part it takes a lot of work to be good and stay good. Thanks for helping wade through the illusions and get us seeing what is really there.
[/quote]

I could not agree more - very well said. And that is precisely why I love golf. It ain't easy, and it is not meant to be easy. It challenges you - in evey sense of the word. The ONLY way to get good at it ( unless you are a golfing version of an idiot savant) is to walk the path of mastery. Patience, Persistence, Perseverance, Practice, Preperation. You enjoy the journey and all the light bulbs and scoring breakthroughs that happen along the way, you practice not just to achieve results but because practice itself is inhererently rewarding, as Hogan often said.

[J13]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367174926' post='6932549']
[quote name='J13' timestamp='1367154018' post='6931371']
haha I understand. The Arm Swing illusion is very interesting to me. I started playing golf and baseball at 7-8 years old and the transition from one season to another always messed me up. Due to continuing in baseball through school it really made me an arm swinger with fast hips. I play to a +1 but I get in trouble as the hips fire before my backswing is complete getting the club stuck behind me a bit causing a forced rotation of my forearms to square the clubhead. Obviously this leads to inconsistency based on timing. But I tried yesterday hitting the ball using this illusion info and it was very interesting. I essentially tried to feel as if the club was simply lifting while maintaiing the same distance from my body while rotating back. It was odd but I actually hit the ball well. Now I know I wasn't doing it completely right just kind of a mind blower in terms of not swinging my arms yet still hitting the positions.

ALso felt like I had more room in the swing if that makes sense. Been working with Dan on some of these things and so far so good. Tough to overcome though
[/quote]

Your feelings and feedback are spot on. When you keep the arms and club in front of the right side of your chest when learning these concepts, and like 99% of golfers, you have been "stuck" for whatever reason, in your case too fast hips causing too much lagpressure on the arms, it actually feels like they are in line with mid-line of your chest and feels like your hands are about six feet away from your chest. Really weird feelings! Of course, not real but it just proves how powerful the Illusion is. Yeah - the more room part is NOT an illusion, that is reality, you now have "space" for your shoulder girdle to un-wind and pull the arms under your steady head that is tipped forward from forward spine angle, kind of a more under and around to your left feeling with just a touch of "up" feeling as opposed to under and up feeling like when a good player trys to get "un-stuck". The poor player will feel "out and over" since they come badly OTT with the horizontal dimension shoulder girdle un-winding and outward arm and wrist motions.

Having "space" is a really big issue and one of my key swing coaching principles.
[/quote]

Gotcha and yes that's pretty much what it feels like. Dan (Iteach) and I have been working on creating more space and getting the club in front of me. Feels like the club is in outer space but on video it clearly isn't. I've just been so narrow for so long it's hard to change. Anyway thanks for the input combined with what Dan is working on with me it all makes sense as I too was under the "spell" It's actually making what I'm working on with Dan that much easier to understand and put into action. LIGHTBULB came on and just blew out my friend. I will never look at a swing the same way again. Watched the 4th round today of the Zurich and one player after another was turning while lifting the club up. HOW have i never seen this before? I couldn't see the forest because of the tree's.

[InaSilentWay]

Jim, the explanation of the arm swing illusion is AWWWWWSOMMMME!

Last week I had been working on not rotating the face on the backswing and shortening my swing, with good results. So good I was able to consistently hit a forged blade 2 iron. This morning, after a 6 1/2 hour, 400 mile drive that started at 2am, I was looking forward to practicing my swing, but first I had 2 hours of shut eye. My swing with the blades was still good, progressing from wedges thru the mid irons, that is until I got to the 3 iron and started shanking. Uh ohhh, another failure. Then I started mishitting the mid irons, with lots of pulls. Good grief, back to the drawing board for the umpteenth time.

Then I started incorporating the arm swing illusion. The push away at takeaway at a 45 degree angle felt weird and very wromg. I then blended that with immediate hip and body turn. Still felt weird, but shots more consistent but not there yet. I didn't dare try the long irons. Then I remembered you saying "You move your arms "around" your FACE and your LINE OF SIGHT in a good golf swing - NOT around your body or your chest" I assumed that was both the backswing and downswing. I visualized keeping the arms, at a 45 degree angle to my body, but high and close to my face. Again felt weird and wrong, but really really wrong. Hit it much better. Felt outside and over the top at the begimming of the downswing and underneath and around near impact. That is not what a proper golfswing is supposed to feel like.

At no point did my downswing feel on plane. Yet I didn't severely mishit any of my drives which happens frequently during practice time. My final drive was awesome. The more in front of my face I swung my arms, the better. There was no way I thought I could even make solid contact, but the ball flew low and far and I finished in the most balanced position I could remember.

My iron and hybrid swings at times were ot of control but I was hitting it far, although off target. I don't know what the heck is going on, but I'm loving it. Feels like my hands will be too high and too outside at impact, but they aren't. .. they are in the proper place. At home, I checked my swing in the mirror, and from dtl, everything looked like a pro swing, but felt like a 30+ hamdicapper swing.The left arm begins shallow, then near impact goes vertical. For months and years I had been consciously trying to get the hands low and close to my body, and the left arm vertical, by immediately geting them that way in transition. No progress in all that time. Lots of tortuous concidences.

I am hoping my experience today was not an illusion. I'm sick and tired of chasing mirages. Jim, you need to copyright this material asap. It's a slice of heaven( 7 steps?)

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367191175' post='6933753']
[quote name='peacedog' timestamp='1367188218' post='6933509']
Glad you are sharing. One issue I have always had with golf is the 'swing secret revealed' 'magic move' mindset. There is nothing magical about it and even when you figure it out you still have to work at it and then if you don't have good fundamentals it won't matter. It's why I stopped my subscription to golf digest and watching the golf fix and trying every little 'tip' mentioned on forums. It is one thing I really like about Dan (iteach) he says it is all determined on an individual's skills and size. A 'tip' may very well work for one person, but it could be detrimental to another. I appreciate those like Slicefixer, Dan, Monte, and yourself that are willing to cut through the crap and really help people get better.

I have had a few lightbulb moments over the years. But nothing that went off quite like the arm swing illusion for me this weekend. Luckily I have a good grip, set up, and posture or else there is no way I could have sorted through it myself. Also the foundation had been laid in the fall when the instructor I went to had me take the club back in a similar fashion. As I mentioned he didn't explain why and therefore I couldn't wrap my head around it. Dan's thread with his right arm straightening drill really helped as well as Monte's continual advice about lag. It all came at the right time for me. I still have a lot of work to do. But really for the first time I feel that I can do it and know how and why to fix things if it gets off.

One of the problems with our society is we want to have it all now. We don't want to have to put in the necessary time, we want a shorcut, we want a 'tip' that changes everything for us. It's why golf is marketed as it is. Sure there are those moments when an alteration in some aspect of the swing can make all the difference, but for the most part it takes a lot of work to be good and stay good. Thanks for helping wade through the illusions and get us seeing what is really there.
[/quote]

I could not agree more - very well said. And that is precisely why I love golf. It ain't easy, and it is not meant to be easy. It challenges you - in evey sense of the word. The ONLY way to get good at it ( unless you are a golfing version of an idiot savant) is to walk the path of mastery. Patience, Persistence, Perseverance, Practice, Preperation. You enjoy the journey and all the light bulbs and scoring breakthroughs that happen along the way, you practice not just to achieve results but because practice itself is inhererently rewarding, as Hogan often said.
[/quote]

Jim nailed it. Which brings me to a point of contention.

People want to copy Moe Norman and Ben Hogan as if their swings are where the magic is. There may be some truth to that, but the magic was in the decade of 8 hour a day practice.

You copy Jim Furyk's move for 8 hours a day for a decade, you may not win tour events, but you are going to be a damn good ball striker.

[J13]

Monte I think people forget about the practice to engrain these moves. Reps make permanent not perfect lol. Between you, Jim, and Dan people here are very lucky that your mission is the help people improve and in the process grow the game. You guys are great ambassadors to the sport.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1367193226' post='6933917']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367174926' post='6932549']
[quote name='J13' timestamp='1367154018' post='6931371']
haha I understand. The Arm Swing illusion is very interesting to me. I started playing golf and baseball at 7-8 years old and the transition from one season to another always messed me up. Due to continuing in baseball through school it really made me an arm swinger with fast hips. I play to a +1 but I get in trouble as the hips fire before my backswing is complete getting the club stuck behind me a bit causing a forced rotation of my forearms to square the clubhead. Obviously this leads to inconsistency based on timing. But I tried yesterday hitting the ball using this illusion info and it was very interesting. I essentially tried to feel as if the club was simply lifting while maintaiing the same distance from my body while rotating back. It was odd but I actually hit the ball well. Now I know I wasn't doing it completely right just kind of a mind blower in terms of not swinging my arms yet still hitting the positions.

ALso felt like I had more room in the swing if that makes sense. Been working with Dan on some of these things and so far so good. Tough to overcome though
[/quote]

Your feelings and feedback are spot on. When you keep the arms and club in front of the right side of your chest when learning these concepts, and like 99% of golfers, you have been "stuck" for whatever reason, in your case too fast hips causing too much lagpressure on the arms, it actually feels like they are in line with mid-line of your chest and feels like your hands are about six feet away from your chest. Really weird feelings! Of course, not real but it just proves how powerful the Illusion is. Yeah - the more room part is NOT an illusion, that is reality, you now have "space" for your shoulder girdle to un-wind and pull the arms under your steady head that is tipped forward from forward spine angle, kind of a more under and around to your left feeling with just a touch of "up" feeling as opposed to under and up feeling like when a good player trys to get "un-stuck". The poor player will feel "out and over" since they come badly OTT with the horizontal dimension shoulder girdle un-winding and outward arm and wrist motions.

Having "space" is a really big issue and one of my key swing coaching principles.
[/quote]

Gotcha and yes that's pretty much what it feels like. Dan (Iteach) and I have been working on creating more space and getting the club in front of me. Feels like the club is in outer space but on video it clearly isn't. I've just been so narrow for so long it's hard to change. Anyway thanks for the input combined with what Dan is working on with me it all makes sense as I too was under the "spell" It's actually making what I'm working on with Dan that much easier to understand and put into action. LIGHTBULB came on and just blew out my friend. I will never look at a swing the same way again. Watched the 4th round today of the Zurich and one player after another was turning while lifting the club up. HOW have i never seen this before? I couldn't see the forest because of the tree's.
[/quote]

It is funny you mention watching the boys at New Orleans today. When I first discovered the Illusion, and for about eight years after, I could only see through it to what was really happening as you described it, when I really "tried" to see it. Then for about seven years after that, I could instantly see through the Illusion or a second later, let the Illusion control my perception and "see" the arms going around the body, back and forth between those two perceptions, pretty much at will. I attend the Sony Open every year, and I would stand on the range at Waialae and see one tour pro swinging his arms behind his body (not happening) and then look at the guy next to him, and see his arms make the V motion in front of his rotating chest.

And for the past two years I literally NEVER see the arms goind around, I cannot let myself be under the spell even when I try...but hey, I am a slow learner! That change actually started about three years ago at a clinic at Waialae the day before the tournament, Davis was hitting 75 yard sand wedge shots into the green and I was standing about 15 feet away from him and I could not see his arms go around his body, even when I tried.

And like you, I am still stunned that for years my whole view of the golf swing was so totally wrong.

[PingG10guy]

Glad to see people talking about the grind. A light bulb on is the start but it means you have to dedicate yourself to fixing the issue or root cause that's holding you back. Armswing illusion is hardest for me because I'm having difficulty training myself to use more triceps in the right arm through the motion. that's what keeps the elbow more in front and allows the downswing action to be more automatic in my experience. Its on or off. If the wrong muscles are on then you'll make the same mistakes

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='InaSilentWay' timestamp='1367193302' post='6933921']
Jim, the explanation of the arm swing illusion is AWWWWWSOMMMME!

Last week I had been working on not rotating the face on the backswing and shortening my swing, with good results. So good I was able to consistently hit a forged blade 2 iron. This morning, after a 6 1/2 hour, 400 mile drive that started at 2am, I was looking forward to practicing my swing, but first I had 2 hours of shut eye. My swing with the blades was still good, progressing from wedges thru the mid irons, that is until I got to the 3 iron and started shanking. Uh ohhh, another failure. Then I started mishitting the mid irons, with lots of pulls. Good grief, back to the drawing board for the umpteenth time.

Then I started incorporating the arm swing illusion. The push away at takeaway at a 45 degree angle felt weird and very wromg. I then blended that with immediate hip and body turn. Still felt weird, but shots more consistent but not there yet. I didn't dare try the long irons. Then I remembered you saying "You move your arms "around" your FACE and your LINE OF SIGHT in a good golf swing - NOT around your body or your chest" I assumed that was both the backswing and downswing. I visualized keeping the arms, at a 45 degree angle to my body, but high and close to my face. Again felt weird and wrong, but really really wrong. Hit it much better. Felt outside and over the top at the begimming of the downswing and underneath and around near impact. That is not what a proper golfswing is supposed to feel like.

At no point did my downswing feel on plane. Yet I didn't severely mishit any of my drives which happens frequently during practice time. My final drive was awesome. The more in front of my face I swung my arms, the better. There was no way I thought I could even make solid contact, but the ball flew low and far and I finished in the most balanced position I could remember.

My iron and hybrid swings at times were ot of control but I was hitting it far, although off target. I don't know what the heck is going on, but I'm loving it. Feels like my hands will be too high and too outside at impact, but they aren't. .. they are in the proper place. At home, I checked my swing in the mirror, and from dtl, everything looked like a pro swing, but felt like a 30+ hamdicapper swing.The left arm begins shallow, then near impact goes vertical. For months and years I had been consciously trying to get the hands low and close to my body, and the left arm vertical, by immediately geting them that way in transition. No progress in all that time. Lots of tortuous concidences.

I am hoping my experience today was not an illusion. I'm sick and tired of chasing mirages. Jim, you need to copyright this material asap. It's a slice of heaven( 7 steps?)
[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback, and yes, its been copywrited since 1997. Until three years ago, I asked all of my golf school students who learned about it to not share it with anyone, as it was proprietary info. But with the explosion of content on the Web, those days are over. At the time, I knew I had discovered something that no one else knew, at least no one publicly had claimed to know, and I knew it would have a very postive impact on my teaching. I call it the "missing link" in golf swing theory because once you really get it, you start to understand why there is so much conflicting swing theory, you start to really understand what "connection" means in a more profound way, and what "effortless power" is all about, and what the underpinnings of the Hit Impulse are all about.

A lot of those weird feelings will fade away, and fairly quickly, the more you practice. After awhile, it just feels like your own "normal" golf swing.

[The Pearl]

Jim, I am sorry if you covered this earlier, I probably missed it...could you give a quick explanation of the V motion?