Tom Slighter's new signature logo Japrechaun

[xxio]

I agree the name should be replaced.

 

I made a post long ways back on GEA where I made a hurried review on a "Japan" product. I was deservedly flamed. I didn't know the intricacies of using the term.

 

I apologized on that board. I counsulted a Japanese member at our club. He did say it is not nice to use the term "Japan" even if connected to another word. It always has to be Japanese. He even said that is why you never see Japanese eating at a Japan-Chinese Restaurant but you will find them in a Japanese-Chinese Restaurant.

 

Maybe Tom should consult his relatives on what would be proper.

 

I feel caricature shouldn't be a logo. There are too many ways that it can be misinterpreted. In fact since the figure is at a computer instead of a milling machine doesn't seem right to me.

 

The Slighter logo as it is now is a wonderful logo. The caricature should be the way Tom represents himself if he doesn't want to post actual pictures.

[Subsonic]

Crunching the numbers:

 

50% Like it / Don't Care

50% Don't like it / Could be done better

 

I remember one of my marketing classes from college stated that a advertising program should stimulate peoples thoughts and that a good program would have lots of love it / hate it responses. It is interesting to see how this worked out.

[Geo]

See what happens when you show up late to the prom. All the songs are lame and you're left asking the DJ to play the songs that were already played.

 

So, without apologies I'm going to add my 2 bits as I've received PM's over my sig (which is 95% a protest for those stupid slideshows. only 1 of those pics is about the slighter figure.), and have been the subject of others. :) I know some of this has been hashed, rehashed, and chalked up to semantics, but...deal with it. :fool:

 

1) Caricatures and recognizing races. You want to represent culture based on some stereotyped images, have it drawn by someone with hardly any immersion into that culture, then expect to NOT get criticized? That's dumb, whether by stupidity or ignorance, that's just dumb. In the US, your typical caricatured drawing (carnie, art student dropout, whatever) will often characterize Asians the same way, the way Tom's person did. Go to Japan, you'll get one like the Maruyama one, or any number of celebrity cartoons I've seen. There you'll have an artist that recognizes individual facial features, rather than just the ones that are "different" as per some of the posts I've read this morning. I don't know where bumpNrun24's avatar came from, but I would be very surprised if it was done domestically. They don't employ yellow skin, slanty eyes, or big buck teeth (as with the newest itineration popularized in WWII-era posters vilifying the Japanese).

 

2) The reason for number one has a lot to do with cultural immersion. Apparently, it can be hard to distinguish between individuals within a culture because of the perception of shared traits. Spend any time in Japan (3 years here--not on a military base, my wife has over 20), and you'll easily recognize traits. Headona--how many years have you been teaching history? You don't get to back out of a statement two hours later unless you've only had that view for one. You want us to teach you traits beyond skin tone, hair, and eyes? I can't do it any more than you can succinctly describe the traits of your typical American. Besides, "Yellow skin and slanted eyes are the genetic make-up of native Japanese people." is obviously an opinion that you've held long before you came to this thread and while I'm glad you got yourself some education by reading this golf forum over the course of two hours, it negates any semblance of a valid opinion that you can hold on this subject. That you go on to say that you "I don't believe anyone should be offended" only shows how narrow minded you are despite lacking the cultural experience or awareness that others obviously have. That you cannot leave this thread alone despite promising to do so on multiple occasions just to get the last word in only shows your insistence on others sharing your view. I pray my daughter is never subjected to a teacher like you.

 

3) Positive stereotyping: no such thing. Argue this one and you're wrong. Tom chalking up his "feisty competitive spirit and luck of the Irish, as well as the meticulous & precise focus and zen of the Japanese" to race is tantamount to "Irish people are good in bar fights and the Japanese are good at math and science." Neither of these are positive. First--not everyone in Japan is a Zen Buddhist. National religion is Shinto, and even within Buddhism, Zen is FAR from the largest sect. So unless Tom is a practicing Buddhist let's leave religion out of this (even then, I won't touch it). Second, the view that academic achievement is a genetic predisposition denies an individual of the rights to success as a result of personal accomplishment. Some of you might still cling to the race card, but again--categorically wrong and only exposes ignorance. If you're really interested as to some explanations to perceived trends, go take a course (as long as certain board members aren't teaching it :) ), or hit the internet. If you look hard enough, you'll find some answers.

 

4) The Abercrombie & Fitch effect. Everybody remember the T-shirts portraying Asians with the conical hats, slanty eyes, and buck teeth? Various cartoons depicting the logos, "Buddha Bash: get your buddha on the floor," "Pizza Dojo: eat in or wok out," "Wok-N-Bowl: chinese food and bowling," and "Wong Brothers Laundry Service: two wongs can make it white." Obviously highly offensive despite A&F's reported good intentions to appeal to the "Asians with a sense of humor." After issuing a public apology, Abercrombie pulled the shirts. Interesting to me that Tom (through his agents) defends it and hopes others can someday share his vision.

 

Honestly, if you have issue with this, I implore you to contact Tom. This was his decision 100% of the way, and needs to be handled by him. From what I gather, this was a unilateral move by Tom, and was in the works for a while, despite some objections from Tom's subordinates. Slighter is the name on the putters, the sight, and he's the one who makes the decision. At best, this was an intentional move to give him some press. At worst...whatever, his call. But it seems that most of Tom's work has stopped being about his putters and more about controversy lately.

[HeadonaStick]

 

[...]

 

Only a biggot would believe a stereotype or profile were correct 100% of the time. The rest of us may make an initial judgement based on a held stereotype, but we are continually adjusting our opinions of people around us as we collect more information about them individually. We also often adjust the stereotypes themselves, if we are smart.

 

Great point. Almost like an "evolution" from this statement.

 

Yellow skin and slanted eyes are the genetic make-up of native Japanese people. How else should someone of Japanese descent be drawn?

 

I promise Im out of here....it's too late for this. Good night gentlemen.

Okay, look:

 

I have probably offended everyone on the board. For that I am deeply disturbed and I apologize.

 

I really don't see the issue, and if you don't answer the questions I asked, I'm not going to see it. I want to.

 

I should have stayed out of this when I said I was going to - not because the discussion isn't important - but because text is a very, very difficult medium in which to discuss topics of this nature. Unless you are writing a very focused, formal paper it is too easy to wander away from your point or to select words that do not convey the correct idea.

 

In text it is not possible to read the normal cues we use in discussion to gauge a person or temper the words they use. On an internet BB there may be hours or days between post and reply so it is easy to loose focus. You are often fielding a number of questions from various members.

 

I suggest you have taken the intellectually safe route - attack but never put forth any ideas of your own. Never ask for clarification or ask questions to dig deeper into another's ideas.

 

Anyone can attack another's ideas and words, that is not much of an intellectual challenge. However, very little of value comes from that. I understand that I have offended and angered - that much is clear. But there is little hope of either of us learning anything of value if you don't take a risk and put your ideas on the table.

 

I respect you and your ideas and opinions so I ask questions to try and pull out those ideas and opinions so that I can understand them, and you, better. I respect your ideas and opinions so I take risks and put my ideas and opinions out there so you, and others, can attack them and hopefully learn more about them and me - and in the process I get to learn something and make myself a little bit better.

 

I obviously have an issue - but what that issue is - poor writing skills, poor intellectual skills that are preventing me from understanding you or some unsavory personal beliefs - remain hidden because you are not doing your part to pull them out.

 

If you attack me at least have the respect to take your own risks and teach me. It isn't about who is right and who is wrong. It isn't as simple as that. It is about learning something.

 

To try and simplify things here is a list of a few of my ideas and beliefs:

• I dislike political correctness.
  
• I don't see any meaningful difference between "profile" and "stereotype."
  
• I think the new logo is fine. I also think Tom is taking a potentially dangerous business path - as evidenced by this thread.
  
• I believe we all rely on stereotypes to go about our daily lives. There are "exemplars" that we use to make judgements about others. Often those exemplars need to be re-thought as we go through life.
  
• I think that if you don't agree with the above you should: think about how you expect a business person to look. That is a stereotype. If you don't think exemplars change, think about how your great grandparents expected a business person to look.
  
• I believe that it is very probable that someone who has been immersed in Asian culture has better exemplars about Asian culture than someone who grew up in the American Mid-West. I suspect the reverse is also true.
  
• I believe that individuals of Asian descent have an expectation of how someone who is Korean, Japanese, Chinese etc. is going to look. I think they are wrong sometimes too.
  
• I am certain that our physical features are determined in no small part by genetics.
  
• I think that a good characture has to address its audiences stereotypes to be effective. I also believe that is not always a bad thing.
  
• I believe that many people buy into political correctness because it is easier than thinking for yourself. Of course, I believe that about a lot of religious (not spiritual) people too. Witness the rise of televangelists. I think the same thing about people who simply vote along party lines. Rather than thinking for themselve they would rather let someone else tell them what to think.
  
• I am pretty sure that the idea above will make me look worse than I already do. Tough.
   
  
• I can say with 100% certainty that I am sure that I believe every thing I say is absolutely correct.
   
  
• I can say with 100% certainty that I am not always right. I can also say that without help from someone else I will never know which ideas are wrong.
   
  
• I am pretty sure that those two statements will require some thought on your part to reconcile. It can be done.
  
• I believe Karma is a b****.
  
• I used to participate in a lot of political discussion groups. I don't anymore. This thread has reminded me why I don't anymore.
  
• I reserve the right to change my mind about any of the things above without notice. Anyone who can't re-think their beliefs is in a bad place spiritually and intellectually.
  
• I think there is always more to learn about others.
  

At this point I wish this thread would just die. I am horrified at how my words may have been construed.

 

[edit:]

 

beruo, your reply is honestly appreciated. Thanks.

 

I also think your reply was pretty harsh. Was it deserved? Some of it certainly was. Was all of it? I don't know, I'll have to think about it. I assure you that you have miscontrued at least part of what I stated. So it goes. I will only add to the above to say this: a good teacher often makes a statement to draw out ideas so they can be explored.

 

Perhaps someday the opportunity will arise for a better talk. Unlikely, but maybe. Until then, this post will have to suffice - right now, I stand by what it says.

 

Now, I'll be happy to let this thread die.

 

[edit-edit:]

 

I am so sure that I have been misconstrued that I make this offer:

 

beruo, if you are ever in Orlando, I will pay for a round of golf at Disney. You have to go with me, but I think you can handle it. We'll golf, we'll talk and eventually I am sure we will turn to the topics in this thread.

 

At the end of that time, if you agree that my ideas and posts have been misconstrued to a great degree, offer to pay for the rounds. Don't worry, I won't accept and I don't expect full agreement or anything like that - just that my posts have been misunderstood.

 

I also no longer teach history - only math. After we are finished, if you think I might be a pretty damn good teacher after all, just suggest I return to teaching history. Again, I won't, but I'll know what the suggestion means.

 

That goes for anyone else who has posted in this thread - head to Orlando and I will pay for a round at Disney. You know the rest - I just thought beruo deserved a personal invitation after his post :)

[HipCheck]

Well, we're focusing on stereotyping, racial issues, etc., but to me, the Japrechaun logo just shows that Slighter consistently likes to stir up some controversy.

 

Scotty stampings, the YES grooves, and the Dreamweaver face, the Japrechaun. It seems he likes the attention, that's all. It also seems like these techniques are a great way of getting attention too.

[Subsonic]

Hipcheck- I agree with you about using this as a way to stir things up. Pretty good marketing. The Japrechaun has managed to have people questioning their own self identity.

 

If you don't like the Japrechaun vote with your dollars because that is what really counts.

 

I am going to call my buddy up and apologize for my last 30 years of racial insensitivity. He is Japanese American and since we were little kids he has always gone by the nickname "Fuji" This is from the wayback machine, but it came from the old school WWF wrestler Mr Fuji.

This is all the fault of the Japrechaun!

[mhighman]

Rules-

Posting here is a privilege not a right.

- No personal attacks on anyone.

 

Sorry to bring that up but Beruo, that was kind of a personal attack on one of your members. But I am sure you know the rules better than I, I just wanted to know how you could just rip down headonastick like that and get a way with it. I am sure I will be banned for this but let me know how I am wrong on this. He stated his opinions and you come back and rip him down as a teacher and say you hope your daughter never has him as a teacher.

 

anyways...

 

Tom does not do this to stir up people. He doesn't come to these forums and rarely hears about what goes on in them... He does not have the time. I no longer have the time to come into these forums as much either... by the looks of it... I am almost kind of glad. I got a PM about Beruo's signature and his slash through the logo... that just rubbed me the wrong way a little bit. Now look where this has gotten us. Most of the stuff in here has turned into a class on Cultural issues or what not.

 

Tom, our Designer, and I worked on this and what Tom wanted it to mean is obviously being missed by some... We are sorry for that... If you think that Tom is out to hurt people then you are seriously wrong. I'll say it again.... Tom LOVES the logo, he LOVES the name, The logo has been up for a month or more and I am still very very very busy doing quotes, some of which state they love the new logo. That said... Please remember the Japrechaun is a secondary logo. A special fun logo for us to put on some stuff. Tom's Needle Logo will always be our primary.

 

I appreciate the thread and some of the posts are excellent and some aren't.

 

But I guess it is a good discussion piece for a golf board/forum.

[DemolitionMan]

 

To try and simplify things here is a list of a few of my ideas and beliefs:

• I dislike political correctness.
  
• I don't see any meaningful difference between "profile" and "stereotype."
  
• I think the new logo is fine. I also think Tom is taking a potentially dangerous business path - as evidenced by this thread.
  
• I believe we all rely on stereotypes to go about our daily lives. There are "exemplars" that we use to make judgements about others. Often those exemplars need to be re-thought as we go through life.
  
• I think that if you don't agree with the above you should: think about how you expect a business person to look. That is a stereotype. If you don't think exemplars change, think about how your great grandparents expected a business person to look.
  
• I believe that it is very probable that someone who has been immersed in Asian culture has better exemplars about Asian culture than someone who grew up in the American Mid-West. I suspect the reverse is also true.
  
• I believe that individuals of Asian descent have an expectation of how someone who is Korean, Japanese, Chinese etc. is going to look. I think they are wrong sometimes too.
  
• I am certain that our physical features are determined in no small part by genetics.
  
• I think that a good characture has to address its audiences stereotypes to be effective. I also believe that is not always a bad thing.
  
• I believe that many people buy into political correctness because it is easier than thinking for yourself. Of course, I believe that about a lot of religious (not spiritual) people too. Witness the rise of televangelists. I think the same thing about people who simply vote along party lines. Rather than thinking for themselve they would rather let someone else tell them what to think.
  
• I am pretty sure that the idea above will make me look worse than I already do. Tough.
   
  
• I can say with 100% certainty that I am sure that I believe every thing I say is absolutely correct.
   
  
• I can say with 100% certainty that I am not always right. I can also say that without help from someone else I will never know which ideas are wrong.
   
  
• I am pretty sure that those two statements will require some thought on your part to reconcile. It can be done.
  
• I believe Karma is a b****.
  
• I used to participate in a lot of political discussion groups. I don't anymore. This thread has reminded me why I don't anymore.
  
• I reserve the right to change my mind about any of the things above without notice. Anyone who can't re-think their beliefs is in a bad place spiritually and intellectually.
  
• I think there is always more to learn about others.
  

 

But trust me on the sunscreen…

[mhighman]

 

To try and simplify things here is a list of a few of my ideas and beliefs:

• I dislike political correctness.
  
• I don't see any meaningful difference between "profile" and "stereotype."
  
• I think the new logo is fine. I also think Tom is taking a potentially dangerous business path - as evidenced by this thread.
  
• I believe we all rely on stereotypes to go about our daily lives. There are "exemplars" that we use to make judgements about others. Often those exemplars need to be re-thought as we go through life.
  
• I think that if you don't agree with the above you should: think about how you expect a business person to look. That is a stereotype. If you don't think exemplars change, think about how your great grandparents expected a business person to look.
  
• I believe that it is very probable that someone who has been immersed in Asian culture has better exemplars about Asian culture than someone who grew up in the American Mid-West. I suspect the reverse is also true.
  
• I believe that individuals of Asian descent have an expectation of how someone who is Korean, Japanese, Chinese etc. is going to look. I think they are wrong sometimes too.
  
• I am certain that our physical features are determined in no small part by genetics.
  
• I think that a good characture has to address its audiences stereotypes to be effective. I also believe that is not always a bad thing.
  
• I believe that many people buy into political correctness because it is easier than thinking for yourself. Of course, I believe that about a lot of religious (not spiritual) people too. Witness the rise of televangelists. I think the same thing about people who simply vote along party lines. Rather than thinking for themselve they would rather let someone else tell them what to think.
  
• I am pretty sure that the idea above will make me look worse than I already do. Tough.
  
• I can say with 100% certainty that I am sure that I believe every thing I say is absolutely correct.
  
• I can say with 100% certainty that I am not always right. I can also say that without help from someone else I will never know which ideas are wrong.
  
• I am pretty sure that those two statements will require some thought on your part to reconcile. It can be done.
  
• I believe Karma is a b****.
  
• I used to participate in a lot of political discussion groups. I don't anymore. This thread has reminded me why I don't anymore.
  
• I reserve the right to change my mind about any of the things above without notice. Anyone who can't re-think their beliefs is in a bad place spiritually and intellectually.
  
• I think there is always more to learn about others.
  

 

But trust me on the sunscreen…

 

 

I remember that sunscreen thing... good one.

[sergizmo]

This was a mistake on Tom's part. There is very little to gain and a lot to lose. How many people are going to buy a Slighter putter because of the logo/description? None. How many people are not going to buy a Slighter putter because of the logo/description? Potentially quite a few. So from a purely business perspective, this will be a failure IMO.

 

The sheer arrogance of the description is shocking as well. "As Tom is of mixed race, he possesses the stereotypically good qualities of both races. That means he is superior to all of you single race losers". And this accomplishes what?

[Tad]

Im an owner of one of Tom's customs putters, it has been a mainstay in my bag since last July when I purchased it and is definately the best putter that I have ever owned. During this time I got to know Tom quite well through all the "infamous" emails that is lauded on the many forums who give feedback on Toms customer service. Tom and I shared many aspects of our lives in the emails and the specifics of the putter he was building me. All I can say is Tom is "top drawer" when it comes to customer service and "top drawer" as a person.

 

The new logo and the use of "Japrechaun":

The new character IMO is self representative of who Tom is, He is of Irish and Japanese heritage and he is quite proud of this, but the use of "Japan" attached to the "rechaun" is not appealing to me. The use of "Japan" has its roots in hatred. Those roots started when the so called "yellow peril" http://www.answers.com/topic/yellow-peril was occuring with mass immigration to the USA from Asia, even to the point of legislation preventing or limiting legal immigration! This hatred intensified upon that ill fated day in December in Pearl Harbor. As with Pitbull I have many uncles and relatives who fought in the 442nd in WWII, all volunteered while kept in "relocation camps" in Poston Arizona and all served proudly as American soldiers. Their segregated unit fought through the Italian peninsula and finally in the mountains of France. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/age...y/100-442in.htm The 442nd is one of the most highly decorated units in WWII. I have personally talked to many of the surviving relatives of mine who served and many shared how they were hero's on the battle ground but returned home after the war to find "no Japs allowed" signs posted thoughout their home towns. My Father once shared with me that he did not go to town for over 2 years after the war because of the racial hatred and was lucky enough to have non Japanese heritage friends who did their shopping for them.

 

So the new logo:

I do not mind the new character but I do Not like the use of "Japan" in the characters name. I also consider Tom a good man a personal friend but do hope he reconsiders the use of "Japrechaun"

 

 

Regards,

Tad

[HipCheck]

 

So the new logo:

I do not mind the new character but I do Not like the use of "Japan" in the characters name. I also consider Tom a good man a personal friend but do hope he reconsiders the use of "Japrechaun"

 

Regards,

Tad

 

Very good post Tad.

 

Japrechaun is a bad name. Although it's better than Lepre-kaze

[mhighman]

This was a mistake on Tom's part. There is very little to gain and a lot to lose. How many people are going to buy a Slighter putter because of the logo/description? None. How many people are not going to buy a Slighter putter because of the logo/description? Potentially quite a few. So from a purely business perspective, this will be a failure IMO.

 

The sheer arrogance of the description is shocking as well. "As Tom is of mixed race, he possesses the stereotypically good qualities of both races. That means he is superior to all of you single race losers". And this accomplishes what?

 

 

 

 

I am trying to figure out what and who you are quoting in your last sentence.

 

Please watch what you quote so no one takes it the wrong way.

[edwelly]

Japrechaun logo development: $5k

Japrechaun market saturation: $15k

Japrechaun logo accessories: $20k

This thread on GolfWrx: Priceless

 

Not trying to be an azz here, but you guys spent $40k on this and in less than 24hrs on this board you have had an over whelming negative response to this logo - mainly the name. Did you guys even think about running this thru a control group first to see what people thought?

 

Personally, I like the logo only due to the fact it is Tom himself - I do not like the name. HOWEVER, this has no impact on my desire for a custom Slighter putter. I can't wait to get one.

[osvaldo]

Mr Slighter,

 

thank you for starting this string. I am now a lot wiser man than I used to be. The Simpson family is really Japanese!? Go figure.

 

If you one day start making your "Africaun" Putter Series, send me one (Face balanced, 33", long neck, full offset) and name it for example The Kamerun Series. I guess Kamerun putters will receive much less criticism than any other model.

 

I am so sorry that this PC BS is finally spreading to my turf as well. Words.

[sergizmo]

This was a mistake on Tom's part. There is very little to gain and a lot to lose. How many people are going to buy a Slighter putter because of the logo/description? None. How many people are not going to buy a Slighter putter because of the logo/description? Potentially quite a few. So from a purely business perspective, this will be a failure IMO.

 

The sheer arrogance of the description is shocking as well. "As Tom is of mixed race, he possesses the stereotypically good qualities of both races. That means he is superior to all of you single race losers". And this accomplishes what?

 

 

 

 

I am trying to figure out what and who you are quoting in your last sentence.

 

Please watch what you quote so no one takes it the wrong way.

 

Sorry, not really quoted. Just that the description states that the character posseses the stereotypically good qualities of both races. And the character is a representation of Tom Slighter, so Tom Slighter posseses the stereotypically good qualities of both races.

 

It's OK to be proud of your heritage, but to "outline" it's qualities is a little arrogant IMO. And using race as a marketing tool is lame.

[mhighman]

Japrechaun logo development: $5k

Japrechaun market saturation: $15k

Japrechaun logo accessories: $20k

This thread on GolfWrx: Priceless

 

Not trying to be an azz here, but you guys spent $40k on this and in less than 24hrs on this board you have had an over whelming negative response to this logo - mainly the name. Did you guys even think about running this thru a control group first to see what people thought?

 

Personally, I like the logo only due to the fact it is Tom himself - I do not like the name. HOWEVER, this has no impact on my desire for a custom Slighter putter. I can't wait to get one.

 

 

numbers are irrelevant in there.. obviously I did that as a joke.

 

Anyways... I am glad it doesn't impact your desire for a Custom from us.

 

One other thing is we appreciate the community comments. But please remember still a majority of our customers are not on the forums. It may be hard to believe but there is life outside the forums. We have to keep them in mind too and we do get feedback from them as well. So to say that we haven't done our homework is not true.

 

We just didn't post on the forums because obviously some individuals have aided in giving Slighter Golf a bad name on golf forums. Wrx has been great to us. Other forums not so great. So the forums are hard for us to come onto. I can't even post in most things anymore because I will get quoted or people take it the wrong way and it goes against us.

 

 

We appreciate everyones responses. Please don't address things to Tom because he doesn't come on here. Alot of the posts on here are good. Some are just extremely useless but they are still left on the thread. If anyone has any questions... you can now reach me through email... I will visit the thread but I am done posting on here... I hope.

[smarshal75]

I find it interesting this topic has drifted into genetics. If you look at the people of the world, you cannot dispute that physical appearance is the product of gentics and evolution. I am white since my ancestors hailed from Europe where environmental pressures did not required a darkend skin pigment to provide protection from the sun or tighter eyes to reduce glare from snow. If you look at where people come from/live in this world, you will understand their physical traits. It is really fascinating to research such things. Anyway, spare me the Jimmy "The Greek" comments.

 

People on this forum often use subtle forms of stereotyping. For example, German Stainless Steel...many amongst us see Germans as the premier producers of stainless steel. Thus, we have stereotyped Germans. Another example, Miura forgings...I have seen many a post heralding not only Miura, but the Janpanese manufacturing ability and attention to quality. Thus, many have stereotyped Japanese as being model manufacturers. The list goes on and on. Why do we do this? I don't know, maybe we associate the end product built in particular location as being the result of the cultural norms and values of the people building the product. This is not a bad thing...if it were something bad we should lose the label "Made in .......". Matter of fact, many people us such positive notions about their culture to market their products.

 

Overall, I think it is natural for all of us, when meeting someone, to try and determine their ethnicity or cluture...our first clue, their physical appearance. Next, maybe an accent or regional dress, all of which are physical indicators of race and culture. Its a natural curiosity...we want to learn. I was buying a coffee yesterday and the young lady helping me had an accent I was not familiar with, it sounded Canadian, but I wasn't sure. So I asked her and we had a brief conversation about where she was from (Quebec) and how she ended up in California. I have had similar conversations, all of which were prompted by visual and audial clues about race or culture. I have come away from all of these conversations learning something.

 

I think some WRXers posting in this thread assume that if someone identifies another person by appearance, dress, or other physical characteristics that they are immidiatley conjuring up negative stereotypes and harbor racist tendencies. That is totally wrong. To me, such concerns indicate internal conflict, not comfort and acceptance with race and culture. Here is another personal example, I saw a woman not long ago wearing a traditional head dress commonly associated with Arab countries. My first thoughts were not...Al Qaida, or terrorist, or any other negative portrayal of Arabs. My first thought was pretty simple...that woman is smoking hot!

 

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

[edwelly]

M.P.H. - thanks for clearing up the numbers thing. I was a little shocked to see the amounts but I do the cost involved in designing and marketing a new logo are quite high.

Sometimes no matter what you do, you will not make people happy.

Again, my intentions were not to criticize. As stated, I cannot wait until my first Slighter.

[Gxgolfer]

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

 

From Mitch's comments about Tom not coming to forums, there is a much higher chance you will see a PGA player interviewed on here than him. There are some other notable puttermakers that are talked about here who view and sometimes join the conversation. We are honored that they can spare a few minutes of their time to touch their customers.

 

 

From looking at the trash, there's only been one post deleted from this thread. Phil and other heated threads have at least 5-10 on page one.

[KDMullins]

I find it interesting this topic has drifted into genetics. If you look at the people of the world, you cannot dispute that physical appearance is the product of gentics and evolution. I am white since my ancestors hailed from Europe where environmental pressures did not required a darkend skin pigment to provide protection from the sun or tighter eyes to reduce glare from snow. If you look at where people come from/live in this world, you will understand their physical traits. It is really fascinating to research such things. Anyway, spare me the Jimmy "The Greek" comments.

 

People on this forum often use subtle forms of stereotyping. For example, German Stainless Steel...many amongst us see Germans as the premier producers of stainless steel. Thus, we have stereotyped Germans. Another example, Miura forgings...I have seen many a post heralding not only Miura, but the Janpanese manufacturing ability and attention to quality. Thus, many have stereotyped Japanese as being model manufacturers. The list goes on and on. Why do we do this? I don't know, maybe we associate the end product built in particular location as being the result of the cultural norms and values of the people building the product. This is not a bad thing...if it were something bad we should lose the label "Made in .......". Matter of fact, many people us such positive notions about their culture to market their products.

 

Overall, I think it is natural for all of us, when meeting someone, to try and determine their ethnicity or cluture...our first clue, their physical appearance. Next, maybe an accent or regional dress, all of which are physical indicators of race and culture. Its a natural curiosity...we want to learn. I was buying a coffee yesterday and the young lady helping me had an accent I was not familiar with, it sounded Canadian, but I wasn't sure. So I asked her and we had a brief conversation about where she was from (Quebec) and how she ended up in California. I have had similar conversations, all of which were prompted by visual and audial clues about race or culture. I have come away from all of these conversations learning something.

 

I think some WRXers posting in this thread assume that if someone identifies another person by appearance, dress, or other physical characteristics that they are immidiatley conjuring up negative stereotypes and harbor racist tendencies. That is totally wrong. To me, such concerns indicate internal conflict, not comfort and acceptance with race and culture. Here is another personal example, I saw a woman not long ago wearing a traditional head dress commonly associated with Arab countries. My first thoughts were not...Al Qaida, or terrorist, or any other negative portrayal of Arabs. My first thought was pretty simple...that woman is smoking hot!

 

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

 

 

Great Post...and don't forget about Swiss watches. I can't believe how fired up everybody is about someone using a caricature of themselves to promote their own product. Not only is it not done in a negative light, but more as a celebration of their ethnicity and culture. It's just hard to understand, and I don't consider myself an insensitive person to bigotry, racism & slurs.

[Gxgolfer]

If you guys want to see a post where people are worked up, this is nothing.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...c=71130&hl=

[Big Ben]

I have a custom on order right now and Tom is such a good guy; extremely humble and proud of his heritage. Lighten up guys; we have enough "real" social concerns throughout the world to start our own website, stop worrying about a tiny putter logo! Seriously; I'm Italian and you can call me whatever you want, who cares really? Know I'm going to try and find a tour issue FT-5; anyone with me!

[smarshal75]

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

 

From Mitch's comments about Tom not coming to forums, there is a much higher chance you will see a PGA player interviewed on here than him. There are some other notable puttermakers that are talked about here who view and sometimes join the conversation. We are honored that they can spare a few minutes of their time to touch their customers.

 

 

From looking at the trash, there's only been one post deleted from this thread. Phil and other heated threads have at least 5-10 on page one.

 

 

I found it rather interesting that this topic was even brought up, nonetheless by a moderater given the high potential for generating conflict amongst forum members. As you have noted there are several retailers of other notable puttermakers, who are sponsers or approved sellers on this forum via fee payment. However, I have never seen any postings or polls about those putter makers marketing approaches.

 

If one were to read between the lines of money and sponsorship, one could infer that there might be an effort to stoke controversy to discredit the Slighter brand, thus reducing said brand's competitive position against the other putter makers whose products are sold, via fee, on this forum. Thus, the reason why Slighter threads end up left open, as opposed to a Michelle Wie or Phil M. thread, which like Slighter threads, seem to ignite some passionate discourse.

 

All of that said, no disrespect to Golfwrx or you personally, I am just a crazy conspiracy theorist by nature. :)

[rok78]

I find it interesting this topic has drifted into genetics. If you look at the people of the world, you cannot dispute that physical appearance is the product of gentics and evolution. I am white since my ancestors hailed from Europe where environmental pressures did not required a darkend skin pigment to provide protection from the sun or tighter eyes to reduce glare from snow. If you look at where people come from/live in this world, you will understand their physical traits. It is really fascinating to research such things. Anyway, spare me the Jimmy "The Greek" comments.

 

People on this forum often use subtle forms of stereotyping. For example, German Stainless Steel...many amongst us see Germans as the premier producers of stainless steel. Thus, we have stereotyped Germans. Another example, Miura forgings...I have seen many a post heralding not only Miura, but the Janpanese manufacturing ability and attention to quality. Thus, many have stereotyped Japanese as being model manufacturers. The list goes on and on. Why do we do this? I don't know, maybe we associate the end product built in particular location as being the result of the cultural norms and values of the people building the product. This is not a bad thing...if it were something bad we should lose the label "Made in .......". Matter of fact, many people us such positive notions about their culture to market their products.

 

Overall, I think it is natural for all of us, when meeting someone, to try and determine their ethnicity or cluture...our first clue, their physical appearance. Next, maybe an accent or regional dress, all of which are physical indicators of race and culture. Its a natural curiosity...we want to learn. I was buying a coffee yesterday and the young lady helping me had an accent I was not familiar with, it sounded Canadian, but I wasn't sure. So I asked her and we had a brief conversation about where she was from (Quebec) and how she ended up in California. I have had similar conversations, all of which were prompted by visual and audial clues about race or culture. I have come away from all of these conversations learning something.

 

I think some WRXers posting in this thread assume that if someone identifies another person by appearance, dress, or other physical characteristics that they are immidiatley conjuring up negative stereotypes and harbor racist tendencies. That is totally wrong. To me, such concerns indicate internal conflict, not comfort and acceptance with race and culture. Here is another personal example, I saw a woman not long ago wearing a traditional head dress commonly associated with Arab countries. My first thoughts were not...Al Qaida, or terrorist, or any other negative portrayal of Arabs. My first thought was pretty simple...that woman is smoking hot!

 

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

 

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to identify someone by physical attributes, but to then take the physical attributes and use your own preconceived notions and apply those towards the person is where stereotyping is wrong. A stereotype does not have to be negative for it to be harmful. (I'm not saying you do this, but your post just inspired mine, that's why I'm quoting it).

 

It isn't a big deal to the person who is doing the observing, but it can be offensive to the person who is being observed. If you use physical traits to determine if someone is male/female, Asian, white, black, then that's fine if your observation ends there. But for a lot of people it doesn't.

 

Here are 2 examples from my personal experience. I'm Japanese/Korean born and raised in Hawaii, but I went to college in Indiana. During my freshman year I went with 2 friends to a Chinese restaurant and when the waitress came to take our order she asked if I was from China (she was dead serious).

 

Second example is a couple years later when I was interning for a minor league baseball team in Indiana. I'm sitting in the front office with a team hat on and a local who was buying advertising for her business came in and asked if I played on the team. I said no I was an intern and she proceeds to say, "Oh well I just thought you looked like someone who could be famous. You know, how your people have that mysterious look, like they're somebody." She went on and on for a few minutes before the GM walked her out of the office.

 

In both cases people brought their preconceptions and applied them to me without knowing me as an individual. Both were mildly offensive, the second more than the first (you just can't say "your people"). That being said, INTENT means everything. I know for sure Tom Slighter did not INTEND to offend or hurt anyone with his logo, so that makes me not hate him and still want a putter. But just because you do not intend to offend someone doesn't make it ok to continue with the action that was offensive.

[KDMullins]

Here are 2 examples from my personal experience. I'm Japanese/Korean born and raised in Hawaii, but I went to college in Indiana. During my freshman year I went with 2 friends to a Chinese restaurant and when the waitress came to take our order she asked if I was from China (she was dead serious).

 

Second example is a couple years later when I was interning for a minor league baseball team in Indiana. I'm sitting in the front office with a team hat on and a local who was buying advertising for her business came in and asked if I played on the team. I said no I was an intern and she proceeds to say, "Oh well I just thought you looked like someone who could be famous. You know, how your people have that mysterious look, like they're somebody."

 

I guess this best characterizes the misunderstandings that have gone on in this thread. I don't understand how either of these situations were offensive. I guess what people take offense to is personal, but it doesn't strike me as objectively offensive. I'm a white American, but when I travel to Florida or Mexico, I'm often mistaken for someone of Spanish/Mexican descent. I have dark hair and dark skin. Often, people will walk right up to me speaking Spanish as if I should understand. I obviously don't, but I certainly don't take offense to it.

[Gxgolfer]

I don't understand the "free pass theory".

 

Whether they are a Sponsor or not, none have been immune for criticism here. How many topics do you see here were Sponsor's products haven't worked out for them?

 

I've seen not to flattering MD, TrionZ, etc to name a few. Some people say that GolfWRX is anti-Cameron, bash Slighter, etc. etc.

 

In fact, I didn't want to post this initially but Mitch said go ahead. Its a valid topic about a marketing approach a company has decided to take.

 

But let's be honest. None of our Putter Sponsors need to give us a dime. They support us because of the information they get from our Members and the enjoyment of giving back to the community. Tom doesn't Sponsor any forums and you are going to tell me he is bigger than Mills and Bettinardi or that they are afraid of his competition....

 

 

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

 

From Mitch's comments about Tom not coming to forums, there is a much higher chance you will see a PGA player interviewed on here than him. There are some other notable puttermakers that are talked about here who view and sometimes join the conversation. We are honored that they can spare a few minutes of their time to touch their customers.

 

 

From looking at the trash, there's only been one post deleted from this thread. Phil and other heated threads have at least 5-10 on page one.

 

 

I found it rather interesting that this topic was even brought up, nonetheless by a moderater given the high potential for generating conflict amongst forum members. As you have noted there are several retailers of other notable puttermakers, who are sponsers or approved sellers on this forum via fee payment. However, I have never seen any postings or polls about those putter makers marketing approaches.

 

If one were to read between the lines of money and sponsorship, one could infer that there might be an effort to stoke controversy to discredit the Slighter brand, thus reducing said brand's competitive position against the other putter makers whose products are sold, via fee, on this forum. Thus, the reason why Slighter threads end up left open, as opposed to a Michelle Wie or Phil M. thread, which like Slighter threads, seem to ignite some passionate discourse.

 

All of that said, no disrespect to Golfwrx or you personally, I am just a crazy conspiracy theorist by nature. :)

 

That is the whole point of this conversation. Over 75k people viewed this board last month. All walks of life, race, and religion. At the very least this is an awareness issue to discuss a valid topic. It doesn't matter if it Slighter, TM, Nike, Mills, whomever.

 

Here are 2 examples from my personal experience. I'm Japanese/Korean born and raised in Hawaii, but I went to college in Indiana. During my freshman year I went with 2 friends to a Chinese restaurant and when the waitress came to take our order she asked if I was from China (she was dead serious).

 

Second example is a couple years later when I was interning for a minor league baseball team in Indiana. I'm sitting in the front office with a team hat on and a local who was buying advertising for her business came in and asked if I played on the team. I said no I was an intern and she proceeds to say, "Oh well I just thought you looked like someone who could be famous. You know, how your people have that mysterious look, like they're somebody."

 

I guess this best characterizes the misunderstandings that have gone on in this thread. I don't understand how either of these situations were offensive. I guess what people take offense to is personal, but it doesn't strike me as objectively offensive. I'm a white American, but when I travel to Florida or Mexico, I'm often mistaken for someone of Spanish/Mexican descent. I have dark hair and dark skin. Often, people will walk right up to me speaking Spanish as if I should understand. I obviously don't, but I certainly don't take offense to it.

[smarshal75]

Well my post said nothing about Slighter being bigger than Mills or Bettinardi, nor did I say they are afraid of competition. Tom has his own forum at Slighter Golf. Anyway, a long time ago, Toyota was just an annoyance to GM and Ford.

 

 

I don't understand the "free pass theory".

 

Whether they are a Sponsor or not, none have been immune for criticism here. How many topics do you see here were Sponsor's products haven't worked out for them?

 

I've seen not to flattering MD, TrionZ, etc to name a few. Some people say that GolfWRX is anti-Cameron, bash Slighter, etc. etc.

 

In fact, I didn't want to post this initially but Mitch said go ahead. Its a valid topic about a marketing approach a company has decided to take.

 

But let's be honest. None of our Putter Sponsors need to give us a dime. They support us because of the information they get from our Members and the enjoyment of giving back to the community. Tom doesn't Sponsor any forums and you are going to tell me he is bigger than Mills and Bettinardi or that they are afraid of his competition....

 

Anyway, I hope you guys figure this one out. Lets keep it clean and informative. That said, lets not gang bang Headonastick or another WXRs participating in a thread that is very controversial (Really suprised this one has stayed live, given that I have seen less controversial Phil M. threads deleted before any comments were posted).

 

From Mitch's comments about Tom not coming to forums, there is a much higher chance you will see a PGA player interviewed on here than him. There are some other notable puttermakers that are talked about here who view and sometimes join the conversation. We are honored that they can spare a few minutes of their time to touch their customers.

 

 

From looking at the trash, there's only been one post deleted from this thread. Phil and other heated threads have at least 5-10 on page one.

 

 

I found it rather interesting that this topic was even brought up, nonetheless by a moderater given the high potential for generating conflict amongst forum members. As you have noted there are several retailers of other notable puttermakers, who are sponsers or approved sellers on this forum via fee payment. However, I have never seen any postings or polls about those putter makers marketing approaches.

 

If one were to read between the lines of money and sponsorship, one could infer that there might be an effort to stoke controversy to discredit the Slighter brand, thus reducing said brand's competitive position against the other putter makers whose products are sold, via fee, on this forum. Thus, the reason why Slighter threads end up left open, as opposed to a Michelle Wie or Phil M. thread, which like Slighter threads, seem to ignite some passionate discourse.

 

All of that said, no disrespect to Golfwrx or you personally, I am just a crazy conspiracy theorist by nature. :)

 

That is the whole point of this conversation. Over 75k people viewed this board last month. All walks of life, race, and religion. At the very least this is an awareness issue to discuss a valid topic. It doesn't matter if it Slighter, TM, Nike, Mills, whomever.

 

Here are 2 examples from my personal experience. I'm Japanese/Korean born and raised in Hawaii, but I went to college in Indiana. During my freshman year I went with 2 friends to a Chinese restaurant and when the waitress came to take our order she asked if I was from China (she was dead serious).

 

Second example is a couple years later when I was interning for a minor league baseball team in Indiana. I'm sitting in the front office with a team hat on and a local who was buying advertising for her business came in and asked if I played on the team. I said no I was an intern and she proceeds to say, "Oh well I just thought you looked like someone who could be famous. You know, how your people have that mysterious look, like they're somebody."

 

I guess this best characterizes the misunderstandings that have gone on in this thread. I don't understand how either of these situations were offensive. I guess what people take offense to is personal, but it doesn't strike me as objectively offensive. I'm a white American, but when I travel to Florida or Mexico, I'm often mistaken for someone of Spanish/Mexican descent. I have dark hair and dark skin. Often, people will walk right up to me speaking Spanish as if I should understand. I obviously don't, but I certainly don't take offense to it.

[Gxgolfer]

I was just reading between the lines as you were. :) Oh, and Mitch asked me to put in the poll and Mills and RJB have their own forums as well. Jay's on Yahoo and RJB's on TKS site.

 

There is plenty of anti TM and Nike marketing posts here as well. Not too long ago there was a thread about Bettinardi making a Red Dawn putter.

[rok78]

Here are 2 examples from my personal experience. I'm Japanese/Korean born and raised in Hawaii, but I went to college in Indiana. During my freshman year I went with 2 friends to a Chinese restaurant and when the waitress came to take our order she asked if I was from China (she was dead serious).

 

Second example is a couple years later when I was interning for a minor league baseball team in Indiana. I'm sitting in the front office with a team hat on and a local who was buying advertising for her business came in and asked if I played on the team. I said no I was an intern and she proceeds to say, "Oh well I just thought you looked like someone who could be famous. You know, how your people have that mysterious look, like they're somebody."

 

I guess this best characterizes the misunderstandings that have gone on in this thread. I don't understand how either of these situations were offensive. I guess what people take offense to is personal, but it doesn't strike me as objectively offensive. I'm a white American, but when I travel to Florida or Mexico, I'm often mistaken for someone of Spanish/Mexican descent. I have dark hair and dark skin. Often, people will walk right up to me speaking Spanish as if I should understand. I obviously don't, but I certainly don't take offense to it.

 

Well, neither experience was out and out offensive, only mild, that's why I used them as examples. I have other experiences that were more obvious, but I wanted to show the subtlety that is missed in seemingly nothing interactions. I'll break down the first one.

 

I'm not saying that I even hated either person who said what they did. They were mildly offensive because of other dynamics, the first incident was offensive because she assumed I was Chinese because I was in a Chinese restaurant. This infers somewhat that all Asians look alike, which is offensive because we don't. Second she didn't ask if I was Chinese, she asked if I was from China, which infers that because I'm Asian I can't be American I have to be from somewhere else. Both things are her preconceptions of who I am without knowing me as an individual and my own personal identity as a person.

 

Now a few minutes earlier could the waitress have just been talking to someone who was Chinese and from China and that's why she asked the question? Maybe, but even then that was that person, she should not bring those experiences to me. I'm a new individual and should be treated as such.

 

Now I'm not even arguing that stereotypes aren't somewhat true as a large whole, because I agree that it is natural to use stereotypes when identifying people and to place yourself culturally in the world. But those stereotypes should not be applied to the individual you are meeting, and that is where it's wrong to use stereotypes and where it can be offensive.