Uh Oh - Unintended Consequences - Business Golf and Vintage Bag

[ScooterMcTavish]

Well, well, well. So how the worm turns.

 

In my recent enthusiasm for vintage clubs, I failed to consider that there might be times when I am playing for things other than me and my own enjoyment. In fact, I just booked a date today for 5 weeks from now, when I and one of my business' owners will be golfing with two important business partners an a very nice local course.

 

It is important for me to represent my company properly, and although I am not worried about my abilities with the vintage gear, I am worried that I may be violating some sort of social norms or etiquette by showing up with a vintage bag. Although us classic golfers (as a group) are non-judgemental, we know that not all others are.

 

I see my options as:

- Social convention be damned, show up and play vintage

- Put the tin cans back in the bag, and play whatever blades are feeding my mojo that day

- Pull out the Ping Eye 2 set, and golf with only a semi-guilty conscience

- Come to a deal with Uncle Bob soon on the perfect wooden driver to give me some length to keep up

 

However, I never thought of this component of golf when heading off on my "Vintage Quest". In this case, golf is being used as a tool to help develop a business relationship, and I do not want my playing vintage clubs to be a negative distraction.

 

Mind you, maybe some betting on the first hole my might make my vintage clubs welcome? $0.25/hole, plus loser buys a round? Hopefully they don't notice I have a 2 iron.

[Mitchell]

If you follow proper etiquette, conduct yourself like a gentleman, keep a positive demeanor, and do not delay play by not being ready when your turn to play a shot, most players do not care what is in your bag. A nice vintage set that can be utilized somewhat effectively can often be a nice conversation starter. If playing in a scramble you may want to consider whatever driver ,modern or vintage, allows you reasonable length and accuracy to contribute best to team score.

[OUZO Power]

Your selling your services and your considering vintage clubs?

You have to go with the new stuff.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Thanks nochrome.

It is just a casual round, the four of us business people together, as much about spending time away from the office in a social setting as it is for the golfing. So no scramble.

I always follow proper etiquette, play ready golf, and have a good time at the course. And I agree, that most people don't notice what's in your bag, much like they don't notice what you drive up in, [u]unless it is far outside the norm[/u]. And I can say that a pure vintage bag is far outside the norm, especially noticed off the first tee.

I agree, that it can be a good conversation starter. But I do worry if it could also be misinterpreted in a negative way too.

Anyone else been in a similar situation?

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='OUZO Power' timestamp='1375130011' post='7563158']
Your selling your services and your considering vintage clubs?

You have to go with the new stuff.
[/quote]

Nope, they're actually selling to us, but we really are business partners.

[Mitchell]

As long as you don't show up in cargos, manpris, or lulu lemons, dressed like John Daly or have rain hood on bag with not a cloud or sprinkle in sight, you should be normal enough:-)

[Wriggles]

I recall in the 1970's, being a young employed guy, and very ashamed at playing a half set of pre 1930 pyratone clubs. I bought a new set of Wilson woods and irons for $ 110. I didn't play any better, but was more comfortable with a modern set.

Today, I say play with what you are comfortable with. One day, when Payne Stewart was still around, I was paired with a guy in knickers, cap and LS shirt and vest. He had at least a couple thousand of dollars in his bag. He couldn't play worth anything. He looked foolish.

If you are confident in your vintage game, play vintage. If not, play relatively modern. A big modern driver, coupled with vintage stuff works, too.

I'd just play the vintage, if it was me. A real conversation starter, especially if playing well.

[fluffy265]

Scooter, I'm not sure I understand your dilemma.
Surely you would have to play what you are most comfortable with. I don't see much point in playing vintage just for the novelty sake of it. If you're playing your vintage set up well then go for it. I don't see how you would gain anything but respect in doing so.

J

[birly-shirly]

I understand the dilemma - in fact I think there are similar issues for club play. I like the vintage stuff, but if I'm playing in company, especially club competitions, I also feel that there are some precautions to avoid coming across as something of a pseud. These are the rules I play by. I don't think they have to apply to anyone else - but they might be helpful. I like to think that this guidance protects me and my playing partners.

Don't carry anything that deep down you think could limit your ability to score your best.

Don't let your sense of historical consistency dictate that you carry classic blades in a crapped out old bag. Don't wear tweed (unless it's going to help you blend in!).

Only carry stuff that looks like it's been looked after, maintained and remains functional.

Don't use words like honest, real, authentic or proper golf in describing why you game these clubs.

Don't indulge in "what if I was playing modern gear?" speculation out loud.

Don't apologise.

My gamers are 30 year old Hogan blades and steel-shafted Y2K vintage Titleist woods. I'd be comfortable explaining to anyone why I think that set-up gives me as good a chance to score as anything from Callaway or TM's current catalogue. Having said that, the only comment I've ever had concerning my clubs was about the titanium headed driver - and (on the 17th tee) the guy wanted to know whether I'd been teeing off the whole round with a 3 wood!

[russad]

Without going into a lot of detail, my two bob's worth is to just play what you feel you will play your best golf with. I think it's better to impress people with your game and behaviour than with your gear.

[oldschoolrocker]

SMac,
You never fail to disappoint. Always a spin for me to ponder from my breezeway, with my first cup of morning coffee, mixed with the aroma of rich black cavendish with a hint of mellowed burley, rising in a smokey haze from my favorite Turkish Meerschaum

My first thoughts:
Mark 8:36 (kjv). For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?
Or, with a more secular view, from Hamlet, Polonius spoke, "This above all, to thine own self be true."

But then I realized that you were reaching out for honest, thoughtful input, so:

The rock and the hard place as I see it pertains to how this will reflect on you, and as you being an agent of your company, perhaps how it is seen in the light of being ultra conservative, or progressive.

This in no small way is something my analytical side could chew the fat off the bone and gnaw for hours, examining the pros and cons, putting it under the microscope and dissecting multiple times, until having come to what I considered the best case tactical solution.

That said, I own three vehicles, a pickup, a SUV, and a luxury automobile. Although my prefence in driving is always my old standard transmission pickup, each has its time and place.

In summation let me close as I opened with a Bilical reference.
Ecclesiastes 3:1 (kjv) To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven...

So, my final thoughts in this: Look no further than a bag for all seasons to find your answer.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Thank you for the responses folks, and I think the challenge we have (discussed thoroughly in the "Set for all seasons" thread) is that when some of us put things like modern drivers in our bags, we turn into foamed mouth obsessive golfers, ready to seize the course by the neck and wring it until its eyes pop out.

A few responses:

nochrome - Worst crime I ever commit against fashion is to break out a loud pair of 70's polyester pants. And that's usually done for scrambles, and other fun events. So I should be good.

Wriggles - You make a great point, as I too suffered some shame on the course for what I played and felt I had to play something "newer" or "nicer". I don't feel that way anymore. And I've witnessed what you have as well - expensive bags full of expensive goodies, and no swing. Very true that that guy looks worse in many ways than the guy playing well with vintage. And if I am on that day, it will be a great opportunity to talk about vintage golf.

fluffy - Not sure if you've spent much time in the "Set for all seasons" thread, but my playing vintage is a commitment to get back to the roots of my golfing history, and find fun in the game where it had been lost. So really, playing the vintage isn't a novelty as much as a lifestyle change. However, I wouldn't want my personal quest to reflect badly on my company, which is why I asked the question. And honestly, my play with the vintage is still easing towards comfort - good with the irons, still a little yippy around the woods. But I've got 6 weeks to leg it out.

B-S - All good tips, and I do not wear tweed, my current gamers are in a modern Daytrek bag (still looking for a nice vintage Hogan one), and I only apologize on the course if I've violated some rule of etiquette. The "scoring the best" piece is problematic, as I need to enjoy golfing, not worry about my score. Because frankly, older clubs are less forgiving, which means they make it harder to score. And then, as soon as I become obsessed with score, I will again be lost in the wilds of the equipment forum, talking about shaft flex points, and advantages to different 3 and 4 wedge setups. Yikes!

And no, I've seen enough snobbery on a course to last a lifetime. It would never come from me, especially as it relates to my bag and why I play it.

Russad - Very true, no one cares about your gear as long as you're not turning into Mr. Chopper. And I can golf well with vintage, as I can with modern.

OSR - A pipe man, eh? The smell of a lovely Turkish blend mixed with the aroma of coffee. All you're missing is the smell of maple cured bacon wafting in from the kitchen to make the picture complete. Very nice.

Unfortunately, you did leave me behind on your post a bit, as you seem to be advocating for contrary thoughts. On one hand, you speak of being true to the self, which can be summarized effectively in one simple word, integrity. So if I wish to have integrity, I must be true to myself, which suggests playing the vintage bag.

However, you also reference your vehicles, and rightly suggest each has its time and place, and use the quote from Ecclesiastes which also suggests the same. In other words, you know when to use your vintage bag, and you know when to use your modern bag.

Then you tell me to look no further than my bag for all seasons, which as you know, is a vintage (and becoming vintage-ier by the day) bag, as I must stay away from modern clubs to prevent becoming a frothing golf maniac.

Interesting that you reference "tactical solution" as well, as if this was a tactical decision, it's pretty straightforward. Conform. Use modern clubs. Do not do anything to create too strong an impression, either positive or negative. Come join the two-minute hate.

Whoops.

Reread both Animal Farm and 1984 recently.

Regardless, the decision seems to come down to: use head, or use heart? Pretty fundamental choice.

Maybe I can get good enough with the vintage over the next 6 weeks that the head and the heart are able to agree on a set.

[oldschoolrocker]

SMac,

It has been my experience, in all affairs, golf, love, or business, that the best decisions have been rendered when I have remained true to self.

Having to forego the bacon at the moment.
High cholesterol.

And there would be nothing wrong with sporting a bit of Hogan dapper with the old kit.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Unfortunate about the bacon. Nature's meat candy.

 

And I do like to wear the flat cap (do have about five of them) and often wear one when golfing.

 

Tie and sweater vest might be taking it a bit too far, though golfers sure used to dress classy.

 

Look at these gentlemen:

 

 

Now look at.....

 

 

My how times have changed.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1375193444' post='7568082']

B-S - All good tips, and I do not wear tweed, my current gamers are in a modern Daytrek bag (still looking for a nice vintage Hogan one), and I only apologize on the course if I've violated some rule of etiquette. The "scoring the best" piece is problematic, as I need to enjoy golfing, not worry about my score. Because frankly, older clubs are less forgiving, which means they make it harder to score. And then, as soon as I become obsessed with score, I will again be lost in the wilds of the equipment forum, talking about shaft flex points, and advantages to different 3 and 4 wedge setups. Yikes!

And no, I've seen enough snobbery on a course to last a lifetime. It would never come from me, especially as it relates to my bag and why I play it.


[/quote]

Maybe it's a state of mind thing, but I don't think it's too much of a contradiction to admit that modern gear is a bit more forgiving whilst feeling that you can still score your best with vintage gear.

The way I look at it - I need a club that I can hit off the tee whilst avoiding penal rough and hazards. Yardage is a secondary consideration, so long as I can reach the green in regulation. If I don't have high-launching hybrids or fw metals in my bag, I'll stay away from long forced carries to the green - but I still feel that I should be able to bail somewhere safe and score. In the short game and putting, I think the advantage of modern gear is minimal at best.

I still feel there's a distinction between giving yourself a chance to score well, and being obsessed with score. I think the only thing I'd change in your current vintage set up is the driver - but even there I might be working towards wooden woods as scoring clubs (probably via Ping laminates!).

Lastly, I should have been more clear - though I think from your reply you understood. By "Don't apologize" I just meant don't be apologetic about your choice of clubs.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1375197519' post='7568540']
[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1375193444' post='7568082']
B-S - All good tips, and I do not wear tweed, my current gamers are in a modern Daytrek bag (still looking for a nice vintage Hogan one), and I only apologize on the course if I've violated some rule of etiquette. The "scoring the best" piece is problematic, as I need to enjoy golfing, not worry about my score. Because frankly, older clubs are less forgiving, which means they make it harder to score. And then, as soon as I become obsessed with score, I will again be lost in the wilds of the equipment forum, talking about shaft flex points, and advantages to different 3 and 4 wedge setups. Yikes!

And no, I've seen enough snobbery on a course to last a lifetime. It would never come from me, especially as it relates to my bag and why I play it.


[/quote]

Maybe it's a state of mind thing, but I don't think it's too much of a contradiction to admit that modern gear is a bit more forgiving whilst feeling that you can still score your best with vintage gear.

The way I look at it - I need a club that I can hit off the tee whilst avoiding penal rough and hazards. Yardage is a secondary consideration, so long as I can reach the green in regulation. If I don't have high-launching hybrids or fw metals in my bag, I'll stay away from long forced carries to the green - but I still feel that I should be able to bail somewhere safe and score. In the short game and putting, I think the advantage of modern gear is minimal at best.

I still feel there's a distinction between giving yourself a chance to score well, and being obsessed with score. I think the only thing I'd change in your current vintage set up is the driver - but even there I might be working towards wooden woods as scoring clubs (probably via Ping laminates!).

Lastly, I should have been more clear - though I think from your reply you understood. By "Don't apologize" I just meant don't be apologetic about your choice of clubs.
[/quote]

Very interesting perspective, but my main challenge with golf has always been distance. I'm a short inflexible guy with long arms - not what I'd call the prototypical body type for golf. So really, giving up 20 yds off the tee can be a challenge for me when I'm driving well (which I have been this year). Not to mention that since I've been using vintage woods, I've been getting some weird bounces on the course, with balls seemingly attracted to trees like they never have been before!

But I do like breaking score into two components; scoring well, and obsessing with score.

And I did understand your apologies comment - sorry, maybe I should have been clearer in my reply.

Last but not least, there should be an Eye 2 laminate in the mail one of these days. Though I sure do like the look of the Zing Blonde woods.

[Swoosh-Thud]

Short answer- no.

Is it about you or your business?

In the end it doesn't really matter as after reading your grandiose post, something else needs to be checked in at the door.....

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqeMwcl6p_E&feature=share&list=PL46A39E5CE4BA5ABB[/media]

Is that the face of your business?

I guess I should ask- do you own the business? If you do screw it, wear knickers, etc. Then you'll be thought of as eccentric......or a fool depending upon how you look at it.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1375201936' post='7569112']
Short answer- no.

Is it about you or your business?

In the end it doesn't really matter as after reading your grandiose post, something else needs to be checked in at the door.....

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqeMwcl6p_E&feature=share&list=PL46A39E5CE4BA5ABB[/media]

Is that the face of your business?

I guess I should ask- do you own the business? If you do screw it, wear knickers, etc. Then you'll be thought of as eccentric......or a fool depending upon how you look at it.
[/quote]

Good ad, though pretty much the opposite of who I am - doing something to impress others is the least of what I'm about. Especially considering that my modern bag is Ping Eye 2s, a G10 Driver, and an original Ping Pal putter (there's only 250,000 like it in the world). And although I'm senior in the business (high enough to be eccentric), I do still want to set the right tone with our partners.

[quote name='Swoosh-Thud' timestamp='1375201936' post='7569112']
In the end it doesn't really matter as after reading your grandiose post, something else needs to be checked in at the door.....
[/quote]

I'm a bit confused by this statement though. Rereading my posts, I'm trying to see where I've been grandiose, and I'm having a hard time seeing it. However, if you are implying I need to check my ego at the door, that shouldn't be a problem, as golf is the most humbling game one can play.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Scooter,
I hate to sound like a hypocrite and a heretic. But you could use your newer bag, tee it up with your modern driver and play vintage the rest of the way through the bag. If you tee it up with a contemporary shillelagh, most people won't even notice the rest of the clubs. If they do, just tell them you enjoy the vintage stuff. I think they would respect that. Heck, they probably prefer drinking 12-25 year-old vintage scotch instead of some 4 year old stuff in a nifty decanter.
A game of business golf should be an enjoyable way to cultivate friendship and the business relationship. You never know what clicks with people. Thy might think you are eccentric; but I doubt it. Moreover, they might think you have a different perspective on things, which is, oftentimes, a big asset in a business relationship. Don't get stuck inside the box.
I do agree with leaving out the tweeds and Plus 4's, Unless you show up in a vintage Dusenberg.

uncle bob

[dbuck47]

My taste in golf equipment has become eccelctic, eccentric, ecclectically eccentric,eccentrically ecclectic, or just plain crazy depending on your point of view. In short, I like vintage, and I like newer stuff as well, though I have yet to wrap my head around the adjustable drivers, etc. I play vintage now about 60% of the time and that is increasing. Most of my golf is very informal, but occasionally I will participate in a charity scramble or business outing. Generally, if someone else such as a partner or team will be depending on my shots, I will use my more modern bag which includes hybrids and at least a 360cc driver. My old wedge and sometimes putter usually migrate to whatever bag I am using. If I am just playing an informal round with my friends, more often than not I go vintage. I did play one scramble a couple years ago using vintage, but it was on short notice and I had been playing and practicing almost exclusively vintage for a few weeks and thought I'd be better off than trying to change cold.

Unless someone besides yourself is counting on your shots, I don't see an etiquette problem either way. I certainly won't chide you for going more modern if necessary, and don't think your playing companions will mind you going vintage as long as they are not counting on your shots. If someone is depending on your shots, play what you score best with. If you are just playing for yourself, play what you want or feel comfortable with.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1375210652' post='7570270']
Scooter,
I hate to sound like a hypocrite and a heretic. But you could use your newer bag, tee it up with your modern driver and play vintage the rest of the way through the bag. If you tee it up with a contemporary shillelagh, most people won't even notice the rest of the clubs. If they do, just tell them you enjoy the vintage stuff. I think they would respect that. Heck, they probably prefer drinking 12-25 year-old vintage scotch instead of some 4 year old stuff in a nifty decanter.
A game of business golf should be an enjoyable way to cultivate friendship and the business relationship. You never know what clicks with people. Thy might think you are eccentric; but I doubt it. Moreover, they might think you have a different perspective on things, which is, oftentimes, a big asset in a business relationship. Don't get stuck inside the box.
I do agree with leaving out the tweeds and Plus 4's, Unless you show up in a vintage Dusenberg.

uncle bob
[/quote]

Thanks Bob,

You phrased it very well - after extolling the "spiritual" benefits of playing vintage clubs, making an exception for me does make me feel like a hypocrite and a heretic.

And no, no issues with plus 4s, etc. Going to be regular business golf attire, likely flying the company colors.

So really, this has distilled down to modern driver, or no modern driver. Maybe we'll give it a few weeks in search of the vintage driver, and we'll see how I'm feeling then. I'm buying "80+ clubs" from a guy for $40 tomorrow (my own mini-hoard) and maybe there will be a gem in there. Wife apparently found me a couple of possibilities at a thrift today too. And some guy I know says he has some deep face drivers I might be interested in.

[Blade Junkie]

I think you should get a hickory bag and play that

My experience of playing hickory or vintage in club competitions is that it contributes greatly to the social enjoyment of the game, both as a talking point and a curiosity. It brings out the passion and love for the game, and everybody wants to try the clubs, and they remember the experience as a very positive one. Which would surely be a good thing in a business context?

[Froth]

...what if your Partners show up with Vintage stuff and you're swinging the Tin can driver around? If you and another showed up and had vintage I bet you could REALLY hit it off!

Solution? Put both bags in the trunk and see what they've got in the bag first! - Mix and match or use whatever accordingly.

I dare you to bring a bag of damp sand and use it for a "tee" :P

[BrianL99]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1375127805' post='7562894']
Well, well, well. So how the worm turns.

In my recent enthusiasm for vintage clubs, I failed to consider that there might be times when I am playing for things other than me and my own enjoyment. In fact, I just booked a date today for 5 weeks from now, when I and one of my business' owners will be golfing with two important business partners an a very nice local course.

It is important for me to represent my company properly, and although I am not worried about my abilities with the vintage gear, I am worried that I may be violating some sort of social norms or etiquette by showing up with a vintage bag. Although us classic golfers (as a group) are non-judgemental, we know that not all others are.

I see my options as:
- Social convention be damned, show up and play vintage
- Put the tin cans back in the bag, and play whatever blades are feeding my mojo that day
- Pull out the Ping Eye 2 set, and golf with only a semi-guilty conscience
- Come to a deal with Uncle Bob soon on the perfect wooden driver to give me some length to keep up

However, I never thought of this component of golf when heading off on my "Vintage Quest". In this case, golf is being used as a tool to help develop a business relationship, and I do not want my playing vintage clubs to be a negative distraction.

Mind you, maybe some betting on the first hole my might make my vintage clubs welcome? $0.25/hole, plus loser buys a round? Hopefully they don't notice I have a 2 iron.
[/quote]

You're a 9.6? So you're likely going to shoot mid 80's?

Just my opinion, but you're going to look like a pretentious dweeb if you play with vintage bag & clubs.

But it's all relative. If the rest of your group is going to shoot 110, I guess you could be the star of the show.

[birly-shirly]

Let's say the OP shoots 85, although he might just score in the high 70s or high 80s.

I'm curious whether then, in your opinion, he'd look more or less of a pretentious dweeb if he was carrying a full matched set of the latest and greatest from Taylor Made or Ping rather than vintage?

[Soloman1]

Your playing partners might find your vintage setup interesting. I don't see any reason to not play the clubs you want. Just be yourself. You can be someone else in your next life.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1375350739' post='7581732']
I dare you to bring a bag of damp sand and use it for a "tee" :P
[/quote]

LOL, that is too funny. Never thought of that. Though that might make me look like a pretentious dweeb!

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1375355686' post='7581912']
Just my opinion, but you're going to look like a pretentious dweeb if you play with vintage bag & clubs.
[/quote]

On a bit more serious note, that is exactly what I do not want to look like.

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1375364533' post='7582648']
I'm curious whether then, in your opinion, he'd look more or less of a pretentious dweeb if he was carrying a full matched set of the latest and greatest from Taylor Made or Ping rather than vintage?
[/quote]

Hee hee, this one made me chuckle a bit too. Really it all comes down to "Can you play?". If a guy is playing well, nobody really cares what he's using, unless it's outside the "norm", like the Hammer (Pow!), or a wooden wood.

After a few more rounds and more reflection, I do think my driver does need to come back in the bag. I'm actually hitting the wooden FWs better than I hit my metal ones, but am turning into a trainwreck off the tee. The idea behind playing vintage was to enjoy the game, and becoming wild off the tee is not a way to enjoy the game.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1375364779' post='7582682']
Your playing partners might find your vintage setup interesting. I don't see any reason to not play the clubs you want. Just be yourself. You can be someone else in your next life.
[/quote]

I do like this sentiment. Unfortunately, as a bit of a contrarian by nature, I have to be cautious. It is important for me to ensure I am doing something because it what I like, not because it is the opposite of what people expect.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1375364533' post='7582648']
Let's say the OP shoots 85, although he might just score in the high 70s or high 80s.

I'm curious whether then, in your opinion, he'd look more or less of a pretentious dweeb if he was carrying a full matched set of the latest and greatest from Taylor Made or Ping rather than vintage?
[/quote]

That would be perfectly "normal", wouldn't it? We see that at golf courses, every day.

You apparently didn't understand the O.P.'s point. Carrying a full set of brand new equipment, surely gives the impression that someone is "serious" and while his commitment may be limited to a financial one, he's at least interested in playing his best.

Carrying a set of vintage clubs sends an entirely different message, which the OP obviously perceived.

[birly-shirly]

So, is your objection the op' s pretentiousness, or his non-conformity? Or do you think they amount to the same thing?