The NBA basketball thread 2013-2014

[scratchswinger]

What about Noah, Allen, Steve Blake and Iguodala?

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402451856' post='9470581']
So Kawhi Leonard needs to be captain of the "guys who average less then 15 points but are superstars" all-stars. Actually (checking stats) maybe it's Marc Gasol. Either way i'm going to try and build a team of guys who average less then 15 points and would certainly contend. And just for fun the bench needs to all be guys who average less then 8

C: Marc Gasol
PF: Taj Gibson
SF: Kawhi Leonard
SG: Lance Stephenson
PG: Rajon Rondo

bench

Andrew Bogut
Michael Kidd Gilchrist
Draymond Green
Norris Cole

Oh yeah, that team is solid!
[/quote]

Hard to believe some of those guys can make it onto that team. Kawhi is a diamond in the rough though. He's on a team thats way too deep for him to put up any crazy numbers.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402466726' post='9471725']
What about Noah, Allen, Steve Blake and Iguodala?
[/quote]

With my rules (15ppg for starters , 8ppg for bench) i couldn't have both Noah and Gasol. I went with Gasol but it was close. I probably could have gone with Iguodala over Stephenson at shooting guard but thats also close

Tony Allen is just a shorter MKG, so MKG it was because he can guard a larger assortment of players (you know, cause most 6-10 guys can post up, cough cough Kevin Durant cough cough)

Steve Blake is a short white guy, and i hate my own kind

[scratchswinger]

Did you guys see this?

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11068709

[baseballfrk8998]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402537308' post='9477407']
Did you guys see this?

http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11068709
[/quote]

I was just about to post that myself.

It's interesting conceptually. I'd be more impressed with the front office, rather than the team, if they could pull this off.

[mnplayer]

Incredible if that happens. They should start Cole and ditch Chalmers regardless of what happens next year.

[Dizz]

I can't imagine that is going to happen.... or I guess I would be shocked if it happened.

I would think one of the current "Big 3" would be on their way out should they go after Melo.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402537308' post='9477407']
Did you guys see this?

[url="http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11068709"]http://m.espn.go.com...toryId=11068709[/url]
[/quote]

I actually believe this is more likely then Houston to be honest. I really don't think the Heat players care much about stats anymore. Chris Bosh seems genuinely happy sacrificing to be on a winner, and has said he has no plans to leave. Lebron has never really seemed all about numbers, even though he's made a few childish comments towards guys like Durant when they've put up big stats. Wade misses 25-30 games a year

What they could do is all agree to opt out, then take say 15M each over 4 years, and have a 3 on 1 with Carmelo and try to convince him to do the same. I'd bet Carmelo is the least likely to do that as he seems to be the most about the cheddar (rumor is Lebron just made 30M on the Beats deal, and he always does well with endorsements too), but with enough convincing maybe he thinks titles are the way to go, plus he's already made a ton and frankly that team could be a lot of fun for him. He'd probably get just as many shots as he would playing with Harden and Howard, who are less mature to boot

Under that scenario they could probably sign those 4 players for 60M, and then fill out the roster. 77M is the luxury tax threshold

It would probably hurt Lebron's legacy a bit though. You could drop the Jordan comparison forever.

[scratchswinger]

For sure it would tarnish his legacy.... The flip side is if he gets 7 to MJs 6. At the end of the day that is the ultimate measuring stick for these guys. "If" this were to happen and LBJ got 7, the argument for GOAT would always lead to a "but" when discussing LBJ.

[MtlJeff]

If the Spurs win this year....and Carmelo joins the Heat, frankly i wonder if Lebron could ever even pass Duncan

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402614753' post='9483441']
If the Spurs win this year....and Carmelo joins the Heat, frankly i wonder if Lebron could ever even pass Duncan
[/quote]

And since Kobe is above Duncan that would make him not even in Mambas league.

I was pretty much thinking something similar. LBJ was just entering the Jordan convo, is he losses this he takes quite a few steps back and it would basically take 3 in a row at some point in his career just to get considered in the convo. Jordan won basically 6 straight years that he played full seasons and never lost a finals. LBJ would have lost 3, "if" the Spurs win.

Remember last year when I said Manu was HOF and everyone disagreed with me? Van Gundy just called Manu a HOF player.

[Dizz]

Scratch... we've been getting along so well lately... like old times. Anyway this is NOT me picking a fight but seriously my opinion.... and I'll preface this with I realize I'm a LeBron fan and you're a Kobe fan.

Yes, NBA Championships absolutely matter but it still takes a team to win one. Is their legacy based solely on winning the NBA Finals with their play and stats having much less value?

Basketball was my favorite sport growing up and would consider myself somewhat knowledgable about the game (I did play it to a pretty high level before I was injured and picked up golf) and I don't see how anyone could watch both these players and think Kobe is a superior player. The only thing Kobe is statisticaly superior in is Free Throw %.... not even 3PT % anymore. I would consider LeBron a better scorer, a more efficient scorer, better rebounder, better passer and by all accounts a better teammate.

I just think there is so much circumstance to a players legacy. Like... take Scottie Pippen... he's always considered a Top 50 NBA Player of All Time.... he has 6 rings. What if he never played with Jordan.... or MJ didn't exist... he was the same Pip with the same stats and took the Bulls to the playoffs every year but never really made it past round 2?

What if LBJ never left Cleveland... he'd still be the best player in the league but without a ring would he even be considered it? I remember when he came to Miami everyone was talking about who's team it would.... after all... Wade was an NBA Champion.

Some of my post is a repeat from a week or so ago.... but I think a players legacy is so hard to judge because the winning part of the legacy is something that can't be totally on or because of the player. Going back to Pip without MJ.... how would Karl Malone and John Stockton's legacy compare to today if they won 3-4 rings because Jordan's Bulls were the only team beating them.

Make sense? I think this is a fun conversation really.... the era you were in... the team you were on, your teammates.... all those things impact that players legacy that he doesn't always have direct control over.

Thoughts? And seriously, I'm not trying to be personal.... LOL.

Jeff? Your thoughts?

[scratchswinger]

At the end of the day "You play to win the game". There are lots of great players that would be considered greater "if" they won titles. Like the stories of Barkely being the best player on the 84 Olympic team, maybe Chuck was the best, but he will never be in the convo because he did not win the chips. Fair or unfair it's the ultimate measuring stick when players are that elite. Yes, team, coach and orginazation matter but in basketball more than any sport the team with the best player has a huge advantage. Use TW and Jack for example, their are tons of stats to support that TW is far superior to Jack. But to most he's not because of major titles, again ultimate measuring stick. LBJ loseing 3 titles is a tough sell no matter how great his numbers are. If we go by numbers Wilt is the best ever and the conversation is over, nobody is close.

Regarding Pippen, I think he's great, Jordan made a lot of prople great. Hard to say how good or bad he would have been without Jordan. I would love to see him and LBJ go at each other. Pip was so versatile on D, same with Jordan. They would each shut down the best PGs when Harper could not handle them.

Saying LBJ is a "better" scorer than Kobe is a tough one. More efficient, yes. Better? Hmmmm.... Define better....

http://youtu.be/EyAhap7huXI

[scratchswinger]

I just saw this... and man what a mess...

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/11075968/donald-sterling-hires-4-private-investigation-firms-dig-nba

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402635924' post='9485527']
I just saw this... and man what a mess...

[url="http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/11075968/donald-sterling-hires-4-private-investigation-firms-dig-nba"]http://espn.go.com/l...n-firms-dig-nba[/url]
[/quote]

Im pretty sure you're local, so about a month ago some guy called max & marcellus and pretty much said this was gonna happen. He said that Sterling has been around for the last 20 (not sure about that) ownership changes and they all had to be vetted [under he and other owners] to become an owner. Basically Sterling has dirt on everyone in his back pocket and is waiting to air it. This whole situation is crazy.

[TheGameChanger]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402611768' post='9483191']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402537308' post='9477407']
Did you guys see this?

[url="http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11068709"]http://m.espn.go.com...toryId=11068709[/url]
[/quote]

I actually believe this is more likely then Houston to be honest. I really don't think the Heat players care much about stats anymore. Chris Bosh seems genuinely happy sacrificing to be on a winner, and has said he has no plans to leave. Lebron has never really seemed all about numbers, even though he's made a few childish comments towards guys like Durant when they've put up big stats. Wade misses 25-30 games a year

What they could do is all agree to opt out, then take say 15M each over 4 years, and have a 3 on 1 with Carmelo and try to convince him to do the same. I'd bet Carmelo is the least likely to do that as he seems to be the most about the cheddar (rumor is Lebron just made 30M on the Beats deal, and he always does well with endorsements too), but with enough convincing maybe he thinks titles are the way to go, plus he's already made a ton and frankly that team could be a lot of fun for him. He'd probably get just as many shots as he would playing with Harden and Howard, who are less mature to boot

Under that scenario they could probably sign those 4 players for 60M, and then fill out the roster. 77M is the luxury tax threshold

It would probably hurt Lebron's legacy a bit though. You could drop the Jordan comparison forever.
[/quote]

Lebron is scared of Melo going to Chicago. He Knows it may be the end for the Heat.

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1402639385' post='9485647']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402635924' post='9485527']
I just saw this... and man what a mess...

[url="http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/11075968/donald-sterling-hires-4-private-investigation-firms-dig-nba"]http://espn.go.com/l...n-firms-dig-nba[/url]
[/quote]

Im pretty sure you're local, so about a month ago some guy called max & marcellus and pretty much said this was gonna happen. He said that Sterling has been around for the last 20 (not sure about that) ownership changes and they all had to be vetted [under he and other owners] to become an owner. Basically Sterling has dirt on everyone in his back pocket and is waiting to air it. This whole situation is crazy.
[/quote]

I don't know if ESPN has a mic that can handle Max today.

[tocino]

so does duncan/pop retire this year after they win the championship? =P

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402627309' post='9484849']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402614753' post='9483441']
If the Spurs win this year....and Carmelo joins the Heat, frankly i wonder if Lebron could ever even pass Duncan
[/quote]

And since Kobe is above Duncan that would make him not even in Mambas league.

I was pretty much thinking something similar. LBJ was just entering the Jordan convo, is he losses this he takes quite a few steps back and it would basically take 3 in a row at some point in his career just to get considered in the convo. Jordan won basically 6 straight years that he played full seasons and never lost a finals. LBJ would have lost 3, "if" the Spurs win.

Remember last year when I said Manu was HOF and everyone disagreed with me? Van Gundy just called Manu a HOF player.
[/quote]

There's really no point to engaging in a Kobe debate with you. Suffice to say many people outside of Los Angeles would disagree with you and leave it at that

As far as Manu goes i am a big Manu fan but i think he is very overrated as far as being an NBA player. His HOF status is largely based on the fact he is an outstanding south american player (which there are not many) and that he was part of a team that beat one of the dream teams. If his name was Marty Gennaro and was from New Jersey people would think he was a very good NBA player, but not HOF worthy. His BEST season ever he averaged 19-5-4 and his second best scoring season ever was 17ppg. He was never a great defender. Manu was a clutch player, could have put up better stats on a worse team, and has had his moments, but he hasn't shown enough to be considered an alltime great IMO

Frankly, if Horace Grant never left Chicago, he'd have 6 titles while averaging 13-9-3....Would Horace Grant have been an HOF player? His numbers aren't too far off Ginobili when you factor rebounding and defense

Manu's case is somewhat reverse racism based. If Horace Grant had stayed with the Bulls and been from Argentina and named Hector Gonzales, maybe he'd be a hall of fame power forward

[billyhandsomeface]

Bet it was a great first half! Didn't get to see any of it because of the damn severe weather coverage in central Texas.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1402629264' post='9485073']
Scratch... we've been getting along so well lately... like old times. Anyway this is NOT me picking a fight but seriously my opinion.... and I'll preface this with I realize I'm a LeBron fan and you're a Kobe fan.

Yes, NBA Championships absolutely matter but it still takes a team to win one. Is their legacy based solely on winning the NBA Finals with their play and stats having much less value?

Basketball was my favorite sport growing up and would consider myself somewhat knowledgable about the game (I did play it to a pretty high level before I was injured and picked up golf) and I don't see how anyone could watch both these players and think Kobe is a superior player. The only thing Kobe is statisticaly superior in is Free Throw %.... not even 3PT % anymore. I would consider LeBron a better scorer, a more efficient scorer, better rebounder, better passer and by all accounts a better teammate.

I just think there is so much circumstance to a players legacy. Like... take Scottie Pippen... he's always considered a Top 50 NBA Player of All Time.... he has 6 rings. What if he never played with Jordan.... or MJ didn't exist... he was the same Pip with the same stats and took the Bulls to the playoffs every year but never really made it past round 2?

What if LBJ never left Cleveland... he'd still be the best player in the league but without a ring would he even be considered it? I remember when he came to Miami everyone was talking about who's team it would.... after all... Wade was an NBA Champion.

Some of my post is a repeat from a week or so ago.... but I think a players legacy is so hard to judge because the winning part of the legacy is something that can't be totally on or because of the player. Going back to Pip without MJ.... how would Karl Malone and John Stockton's legacy compare to today if they won 3-4 rings because Jordan's Bulls were the only team beating them.

Make sense? I think this is a fun conversation really.... the era you were in... the team you were on, your teammates.... all those things impact that players legacy that he doesn't always have direct control over.

Thoughts? And seriously, I'm not trying to be personal.... LOL.

Jeff? Your thoughts?
[/quote]

Basketball is a sport where individuals can have probably more of an impact then any other mainstream sport. So i'd say titles are certainly very important, but you can't resort to just "so and so has 3 and so and so has 5"....there's a lot more to it then that IMO

If Lebron had stayed in Cleveland with those scrubs, won 2 titles while never playing with another top 10 player, i'd think more highly of him then if he wins 5, but 3 of them with Melo and 2 with Wade/Bosh moderately in their prime. Lebron right now, if they really were to sign Melo, strikes me again as a guy who is somewhat afraid, who wants to win titles as easily as possible. Jordan wanted to beat everyone....for better or for worse, so did Kobe. Those guys wanted to walk in a room and be the alpha. Not sure Lebron has that in him, as talented as he is. But there's still chapters to be written in his career. He has the talent to be the best ever but i just can't look at a guy with the same regard i look at Jordan with if he's just going around the room and hand picking teammates

I remember when i used to play streetball. Me and another guy were always considered the 2 best players. Every time we played, he would instantly say "give me player X" who was invariably the 3rd best player. He always wanted the advantage. That's when i knew i was better then him, and that he didn't think he could take me deep down. Because he needed the advantage....Lebron strikes me as being somewhat like that.

He'll be very interesting to analyze when his career is done, especially if he teams up with Carmelo or Love going forward.

At the end of the day, if he does that, i'd never rank him above Duncan, who won 4 titles (maybe and then arguably 5) as the best player and stuck with his team year in and year out.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='TheGameChanger' timestamp='1402644772' post='9485791']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402611768' post='9483191']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402537308' post='9477407']
Did you guys see this?

[url="http://m.espn.go.com/nba/story?storyId=11068709"]http://m.espn.go.com...toryId=11068709[/url]
[/quote]

I actually believe this is more likely then Houston to be honest. I really don't think the Heat players care much about stats anymore. Chris Bosh seems genuinely happy sacrificing to be on a winner, and has said he has no plans to leave. Lebron has never really seemed all about numbers, even though he's made a few childish comments towards guys like Durant when they've put up big stats. Wade misses 25-30 games a year

What they could do is all agree to opt out, then take say 15M each over 4 years, and have a 3 on 1 with Carmelo and try to convince him to do the same. I'd bet Carmelo is the least likely to do that as he seems to be the most about the cheddar (rumor is Lebron just made 30M on the Beats deal, and he always does well with endorsements too), but with enough convincing maybe he thinks titles are the way to go, plus he's already made a ton and frankly that team could be a lot of fun for him. He'd probably get just as many shots as he would playing with Harden and Howard, who are less mature to boot

Under that scenario they could probably sign those 4 players for 60M, and then fill out the roster. 77M is the luxury tax threshold

It would probably hurt Lebron's legacy a bit though. You could drop the Jordan comparison forever.
[/quote]

Lebron is scared of Melo going to Chicago. He Knows it may be the end for the Heat.
[/quote]

They definitely should be worried if SA closes them out Sunday. Suddenly you wonder if they would've even beaten OKC, who will come back better next year. Then you have San Antonio who is ageless and comprised of Cyborgs, and whatever else any other team does.

Right now after watching the first 4 games, any rational fan is wondering just how bad the east really was

but the series is not over yet

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402713261' post='9492663']
[quote name='scratchswinger' timestamp='1402627309' post='9484849']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1402614753' post='9483441']
If the Spurs win this year....and Carmelo joins the Heat, frankly i wonder if Lebron could ever even pass Duncan
[/quote]

And since Kobe is above Duncan that would make him not even in Mambas league.

I was pretty much thinking something similar. LBJ was just entering the Jordan convo, is he losses this he takes quite a few steps back and it would basically take 3 in a row at some point in his career just to get considered in the convo. Jordan won basically 6 straight years that he played full seasons and never lost a finals. LBJ would have lost 3, "if" the Spurs win.

Remember last year when I said Manu was HOF and everyone disagreed with me? Van Gundy just called Manu a HOF player.
[/quote]

There's really no point to engaging in a Kobe debate with you. Suffice to say many people outside of Los Angeles would disagree with you and leave it at that

As far as Manu goes i am a big Manu fan but i think he is very overrated as far as being an NBA player. His HOF status is largely based on the fact he is an outstanding south american player (which there are not many) and that he was part of a team that beat one of the dream teams. If his name was Marty Gennaro and was from New Jersey people would think he was a very good NBA player, but not HOF worthy. His BEST season ever he averaged 19-5-4 and his second best scoring season ever was 17ppg. He was never a great defender. Manu was a clutch player, could have put up better stats on a worse team, and has had his moments, but he hasn't shown enough to be considered an alltime great IMO

Frankly, if Horace Grant never left Chicago, he'd have 6 titles while averaging 13-9-3....Would Horace Grant have been an HOF player? His numbers aren't too far off Ginobili when you factor rebounding and defense

Manu's case is somewhat reverse racism based. If Horace Grant had stayed with the Bulls and been from Argentina and named Hector Gonzales, maybe he'd be a hall of fame power forward
[/quote]

Your entire argument in regards to TD vs KB is based arounds TD's defense and him being a "better" teammate. Duncan is a big man, he is supposed to anchor defense, that is his position. You are basically picking a position over a player.

Duncan would never dream of doing what Kobe has done offensively and Kobe would never dream of doing what Duncan has done defensively. When they retire they are both hall of famers with the greatest power forward of all time and one of the best players to play the game.

[MtlJeff]

Position is very important though. Statistics show that the highest shooting percentages teams have are close to the basket. It seems obvious of course, but a great defense starts with interior defense, because you are taking away the easiest way to score the basketball and pushing teams outward. Every team (even the Rockets) will take a 5 foot shot over anything else. Guys shoot 50%+ from there. Interior shooting and penetration is a major reason the Heat have one of the best NBA offenses the past 4 years. Bosh, Wade and James are 3 of the top 6 in shooting inside 5 feet

Duncan is 1st or 2nd team All-NBA defense a ridiculous 14 times. In his prime (mid 2000's) the Spurs were #1 or #2 in the NBA in defense 5 consecutive years (1st four of those times). The lowest they've ever finished with Duncan on the team is 11th and that was the 2 years he slipped a bit (2011-2012). Last year they were 3rd and this year 4th and he got some push for DPOY at 37 years old. Hollinger's points per 100 only goes back to 2003, but if you look at just points allowed for 1999-2003, The Spurs finished 1st,3rd,3rd,3rd.

Essentially, the Spurs have been a top 5 defense almost every year Duncan played. Statistics support that a top 5 defense is a better way to a title then a top 5 offense

Yes , position has a lot to do with that, as his size enables him to protect the most important area of the court better then a shooting guard.

[StarFleetGolfer]

Congratulations to San Antonio, lots of humility on that team. Five in 15 years, amazing consistency.

[MtlJeff]

Well another season in the books. Can't remember another team quite like the 2014 Spurs. In an era of teams looking to sign 2-3 max guys and then fill out their roster with veteran minimums and rookie deals, this team can go 10-11 guys deep....everyone got the system, everyone could handle the ball, shoot, pass....I mean they put on a clinic, swinging the ball around, nailing every shot they looked at.

They looked like the Princeton offense out there the past few games, swinging the ball around up top, backdoor cuts etc...

The first game, the score was more lopsided then the game was due to cramp-gate. But essentially they closed out Miami, the 2-time defending champs, with 3 consecutive blowouts...and did it with guys like Patty Mills, Boris Diaw, Danny Green, guys other teams basically cut playing major roles

i'm still in a bit of disbelief as to how easily they won this series. This was as awesome a display of "team" basketball as i've seen in the modern NBA game

Tony Parker led the Spurs in scoring in the playoffs and was 26th overall. Tim Duncan 15-10 in the Finals with 57% shooting at 38 YEARS OLD!

[scratchswinger]

Just think that it very easily could have been two in a row for SA. Miami getting blown out brings clarity to their situation, they need to make some major changes if they want to compete with the west. I'm doubtful that Wade is even a #3 player at this point because of his knees and Bosh can disappear quicker than Copperfield.

[Dizz]

Disappointing series for me to watch... that's for sure.. LOL. I can't ever remember watching a team shoot so well from the field... they just put on a clinic. You're right Jeff, just a great team that embarrassed the two time defending champs and a team that repped the East in The Finals for 4 straight years. After the first 2 games of the series I thought Miami should have been up 2-0 and were the superior team BUT they flat out got dominated. Spurs absolutely outplayed the Heat and were totally out-coached as well.

SS, agree with you on Wade... he looks like he's 40 years old out there. Duncan, at 38 plays with more energy and aggression than Wade at what 31 or 32?

Pop must be a hell of a coach to continually find guys for very little and get them to play at that level. Danny Green got cut from the Cavs.... LOL.

The Heat have roster issues for sure.... I'd like to see LeBron and Bosh do their thing another few years and let Wade walk unless LBJ comes back to Cleveland. I don't think they need Melo or another star to win. It's not like Wade played like a superstar the last several years.

Jeff, you think Pop is a top 5 coach of all time?

Congrats to the Spurs.... 5 in 15 years is pretty impressive.

[scratchswinger]

He's easily top 5 NBA, I would say 3. Behind Red and Phil and above Riley.

When talking Basketball coaches you have to find room for Wooden in the top two.

[scratchswinger]

You guys listen to LBJs press conference? He sounded like a man leaving town.