Brandel reappears on Golf Channel

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383175782' post='8080736']
Humph. What free press?
[/quote]

Freedom of the press/speech/religion only means you can't be prosecuted by the law. Doesn't mean you won't suffer consequences from your employer/spouse/parent or any other authoritative person/entity.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1383249227' post='8084880']
Brandel literally has so little to refect upon regarding his own career and experiences that he had to drugde up a story of how he cheated in the 4th grade. This is whom some are getting behind as being "in the right?" Ummmm....OK.

Don't dignify this as "journalism." He's out of his league and reaching for anecdotal straws. Tiger is a major D-bag to the media and fans in general, but that doesn't justify B.C. and his 4th grade level of "journalism." Pick yer battles here, folks.
[/quote]

My battle isn't defending BC's journalism, I actually don't care for him. My battle is that GC better not succumb to TW's pressure and fire him over this. If you want to fire him for being generally "not good" at what he does, I'd be cool with that! :-D

[Sunningdale]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383248381' post='8084808']

1. Please see my earlier post about Simon Dyson's situation.

2. What Tiger Woods does in his private life is none of my business. I've known PLENTLY of people who are terrible spouses...but ethical in their professional life...and plenty of people who are faithful spouses, who would cheat their own grandmother out of her house in a business deal. The world isn't that black-and-white.

3. Your suspicions say more about you, than they do about him. No disrespect intended. I tend to be more circumspect and thoughtful in my assessment of people and situations. Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I'm wrong. But I'm never unfair or impulsive.

4. Yes, BC had every right to say whatever he wanted. Just like we ALL have the right to say whatever we want....[b][i]as long as we are willing to live with the consequences of our actions. [/i][/b] As my brother likes to call it....[i]The Grown D*mn Man Principle. [/i]

Unfortunately---as many people find when they insist upon exercising that principle---BC is finding out that no one is obliged to tolerate whatever you choose to say without complaint...and the consequences for mouthing-off in an irresponsible manner can be quite painful.

...and potentially expensive.
[/quote]
Para 3 shows that it is you who can be unfair, though it doesn't show impulsivity in my opinion. To any reasonable person there is now plenty of evidence that Tiger is willing to play fast and loose with the rules, when he thinks he can get away with it. There is nothing 'unfair' about having this opinion about Tiger - the data are there if you are not blinded in some way. You may disagree with the charge - and clearly you do - but to imply that someone is "unfair" for this view is, well, just silly.

That Tiger and his henchmen are willing to make legal threats against BC over the matter tells us a great deal about his current ethics - it isn't very pretty but sadly it is consistent with some of his past behavior and appears to be part of his persona. This is most regrettable, I would much rather think highly of the man in all matters. That Rory is willing to say what he has recently said doesn't reflect well on the man either but he's young and there is perhaps hope he'll start thinking for himself.

Am I being "unfair" by saying this? - don't be ridiculous. Just disagree and state your reasons for disagreeing - it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion.

[turtleback]

[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1383199027' post='8082234']

Let's forget the more blatant and egregious acts act of ignonimty. Rule 33-7 and in particular, the 2011-enacted Decision 33-7/4.5, which allows officials to waive a player’s disqualification if said player was "unaware" prior to signing a scorecard of any rules breach.

How was TW "unaware"?!?! He stated publicly what his illegal intensions were.

If you can't smell BS when it's right under your nose then your either too young or too stupid. I can forgive the younger members because the old guys tend to hold out due to some misguided sense of protectiveness. But If you love the game of golf then call out cheaters. Take an enthusiastic joy in said measures. It's called "Defending the Game". Then you can take pride in being a golfer.
[/quote]

Great job of misrepresenting the rule (the decision had nothing to do with the DQ waiver) and misrepresenting the basis in the rules for the waiver of the DQ (it wasn't that Tiger was unaware, it was that the Committee had made a mistaken ruling).

But haters got to hate, I guess.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383247527' post='8084750']
So if I don't like Rory Sabbatini, am I racist against white people?
[/quote]

Do you think your race is superior to Sabbatini's race? If you do....then you are racist to that race. Now if you are the same race it'll be a fun discussion.

But 'white people' is too general. Can be German race, English race, French blah blah blah.

[turtleback]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383222298' post='8082744']


That's the problem.

Many people get a bit fuzzy about the difference between what is fact...and what is opinion.

The only "fact" here is that Tiger had four incidents where outside agencies called him on rules violations. (Given how much he is on camera, I'm frankly suprised it doesn't happen more often). He was penalized for all four of those infractions.


[/quote]

Who called Tiger on the Players drop and how was he penalized?

[nochct1]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1383247615' post='8084756']
I feel a little sorry for the bullying that Brandel is being subjected to by an overly sensitive little kitty kat

I take BC's F grade article as a pretty savvy way of bringing year end attention to what transpired with the rules over the 2013 golf season. It's a shame he is now in this position based on Tiger's "power" and his personal lacky "Steiny"

To be clear, Brandel is a lead commentator ... On a GOLF channel !! Of course he is going to talk about the #1 ranked player. You need to take the positives with the negatives.

Tiger's narcissistic personality disorder continues to evolve. Golf fans that hold Tiger on a pedestal need to accept that it is pretty clear he has some real flaws, get over it. Do you get out of shape if someone tells you that your favorite quarterback isn't a good scrambler?
[/quote]

No, but I would get annoyed if the lead analyst claimed that my favorite QB was a cheater because he had a few intentional grounding penalties.
As for the fans having to "get over it" I think most of us look past his flaws as a person because we appreciate him as a golfer. If anyone should "get over it" its the wack jobs who care WAY too much about a pro athlete's personal life.
Do you go on message boards for all pro sports to let people know that some athletes are flawed?? If so, get over it and watch sports for what they are and stop worrying about whether your favorite point guard enjoys getting laid on the road.

[Sunningdale]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383249582' post='8084908']


My battle isn't defending BC's journalism, I actually don't care for him. My battle is that GC better not succumb to TW's pressure and fire him over this. If you want to fire him for being generally "not good" at what he does, I'd be cool with that! :-D
[/quote]
Well said. BC has his flaws as do all of them but what we sure as heck need in the golfing world is people willing to hold up a mirror and people who don't toe the party line the whole blasted time - people with the willingness to say what they really think. IOW, people with enough self respect, integrity and independence of mind to stand up to the bully boys in the business. And if you don't know who THEY are you haven't been paying attention.

[turtleback]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383233856' post='8083562']

Whereas the legal fees that BC would likely rack up would likely devastate him financially...and make him untouchable professionally...even if Woods didn't win the suit. Which is why TGC made BC fall on his sword---trust me they aren't "doubling down"----in a very public way on this matter...and why Golf.com basically threw him under the bus.
[/quote]

The whole part of his non-apology apology in which he says that the editor wanted him to change it but he would't is interesting. Like he had to do that to insulate golf.com from criticism. I think there is no doubt that after his initial blustery doubling down after it first hit the fan he has been sat down and talked to and is doing what he is told.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1383248974' post='8084862']
But you are a John Daly fan?
[/quote]

Which goes to show you that his objection isn't to the [i]"what[/i]", but to the [i]"who."[/i]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383249028' post='8084864']
Kelly, you react like I should be having some kind of technicolor epiphany right now. You have your thoughts, I have mine. Neither of us will bend, so let's agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Fine.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383249034' post='8084866']

Good post. Way better than mine earlier in the thread on this subject.

Kelly, I'm still wondering if my dislike of Rory Sabbatini is based upon a deep down but maybe disguised hatred of white people?
[/quote]

Let me know what you decide....

[turtleback]

[quote name='daWRXguy' timestamp='1383237198' post='8083886']
[indent=1]I think tigers personal life and golf life need to be kept seperate though in all arguements. Him being alledged a "cheater" shouldnt be backed up by "because he cheated on his wife". Of course, half the tiger "haters' reason for not liking him is the scandel.[/indent]
[/quote]

Most of them hated him long before that and it had nothing to do with any scandal.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='turtleback' timestamp='1383249398' post='8084894']


Accusing Tiger of cheating. When you draw a direct connection between his admitted case of cheating and Tiger, via the shared vehicle of the 100 crossed out and replaced with an F, that is a clear charge in my book, And yes it is not a crime in the sense that he is breaking a criminal law. But it certainly brings himself and any media outlet he appears on into disrepute.
[/quote]

...and comes close to breaking [i]civil[/i] law (libel).

[kellygreen]

[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1383249482' post='8084904']

Freedom of the press/speech/religion only means you can't be prosecuted by the law. Doesn't mean you won't suffer consequences from your employer/spouse/parent or any other authoritative person/entity.
[/quote]

Exactly.

"Freedom of the Press" means that no one from the government will show up on your doorstep at 3AM and "disappear" you because someone in the government didn't like what you wrote.

But the First Amendment is NO protection from the consequences of irresponsible speech that gets meted out by non-governmental actors.

Freedom of Speech is not Freedom from Consequences.

[krayzejava]

Fair and impartial jury a golfwrx forum does not make.

And on Brandel ---- He thought had the gonads to stand behind a tree and shout out that Tiger was a cheat. Two things very wrong with that.....

1. If you going to call a cheat out, stand out and say what you mean to say.... don't sort of say it.
2. If you going to stand out and say "Tiger cheated" you better have some damn convincing evidence. [b]And for all the suppositions and assumptions flying around, no one has anything other than opinion....![/b]

Brandel looked foolish writing the article and now he tried to say sorry without really saying sorry. He keeps making it worse on himself. How can I now respect what he has to say? He will now and always be jaded to TW

And oh....Rory is exactly right when he says no one would really know Brandel if it wasn't for TW.....The hard core golfers and GC watchers know BC but that represents a very tiny portion of the golfing population.....TW simply moves the needle...Like it or hate it....He's the center of golf until he retires.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383249582' post='8084908']


My battle isn't defending BC's journalism, I actually don't care for him. My battle is that GC better not succumb to TW's pressure and fire him over this. If you want to fire him for being generally "not good" at what he does, I'd be cool with that! :-D
[/quote]

At end of the day, TGC is a business...and will do whatever it think best serves its brand and its bottomline. I guarentee you there will BE no "heroic" First Amendment stands on Chamblee's behalf If this public "sword swallow" by Chamblee isn't enough to appease Woods...I guarentee you Chamblee will be out the door.

Because a cold war with an angry Tiger Woods will cost TGC far more revenue than BC could ever hope to bring in.

Never mind the cost if the lawyers get involved. So even if BC stays, he's going to be on a pretty short leash from here on. Which, I'm betting, is what Woods wanted out of this gambit.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383250588' post='8085018']

Let me know what you decide....
[/quote]

My silly question is just meant to highlight to you how wrong your assertion is that most dislike of Tiger Woods is based upon racism. Perhaps there is some, but I think most of the dislike is based upon his actions, temperament, and behavior.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1383249482' post='8084904']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383175782' post='8080736']
Humph. What free press?
[/quote]

Freedom of the press/speech/religion only means you can't be prosecuted by the law. Doesn't mean you won't suffer consequences from your employer/spouse/parent or any other authoritative person/entity.
[/quote]

Uhum...yeah, I know what it is. I also know [s]better than most[/s] as well as anyone here how that all plays out. But, thanks...

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Sunningdale' timestamp='1383250123' post='8084968']

Well said. BC has his flaws as do all of them but [b]what we sure as heck need in the golfing world is people willing to hold up a mirror and people who don't toe the party line the whole blasted time[/b] - people with the willingness to say what they really think. IOW, people with enough self respect, integrity and independence of mind to stand up to the bully boys in the business. And if you don't know who THEY are you haven't been paying attention.
[/quote]
That kinda speak to my point about Chamblee, however. If he held up that mirror, and saw reflected an entire career with one win, where does one get the outright audacity to give someone an "F" for a single season which quintoupled his own entire career win total?
If people like that ARE allowed to throw stones so incredibly casually like that, the whole thing becomes tantamount to monkeys flinging journalistic "doo" left and right whenever they see fit, justified only by "free speech" claims. We want people who would levy such criticisms to have something to stand on to justify it. Johnny Miller barely has such a career to justify it. Faldo, like him or loathe him, has the credentials to levy more critisim than a Chamblee can get away with if they ever do truly look in that mirror.

Tiger gets a lot of hate because so many made their careers hanging by his coattails for so long and people got tired of this narrow-minded coverage/focus. Tiger simply can't help that. And B.C. is a major golf "hanger-on" and forgot his place in all this. I said from the onset, B.C. and the entire Golf CHannel owe their careers to Woods. He made the golf bonanza that brought them into being, like it or not. Damn straight no one even knows who B.C. is without Tiger. We had the "King" and Tiger is the loathed Prince successor. They moved golf mountains (and boulders.) B.C. and crew have been along for the ride all along. It's just an unwritten in such scenarios don't bite the hand that feeds.

[MadGolfer76]

As a parting contribution to the thread, I haven't noticed an instance where anyone pointed out that there had to be some complicity by the agencies Chamblee worked for. Part of being a writer is developing your own material (more or less for Brandel), but the other part is submitting it to an organization to publish or post it. No doubt BC's name is signed to the work, but the folks who made him take it all back are the same ones who approved the submission. No doubt, the thought police threatened to sue them, so they threw BC under the bus rather than risk liability. I am sure this idea already occurred to some here, but you can all gnaw on that while I hit the dusty trail.

Regards

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1383251529' post='8085112']

That kinda speak to my point about Chamblee, however. If he held up that mirror, and saw reflected an entire career with one win, where does one get the outright audacity to give someone an "F" for a single season which quintoupled his own entire career win total?
If people like that ARE allowed to throw stones so incredibly casually like that, the whole thing becomes tantamount to monkeys flinging journalistic "doo" left and right whenever they see fit, justified only by "free speech" claims. We want people who would levy such criticisms to have something to stand on to justify it. Johnny Miller barely has such a career to justify it. Faldo, like him or loathe him, has the credentials to levy more critisim than a Chamblee can get away with if they ever do truly look in that mirror.

Tiger gets a lot of hate because so many made their careers hanging by his coattails for so long and people got tired of this narrow-minded coverage/focus. Tiger simply can't help that. And B.C. is a major golf "hanger-on" and forgot his place in all this. I said from the onset, B.C. and the entire Golf CHannel owe their careers to Woods. He made the golf bonanza that brought them into being, like it or not. Damn straight no one even knows who B.C. is without Tiger. We had the "King" and Tiger is the loathed Prince successor. They moved golf mountains (and boulders.) B.C. and crew have been along for the ride all along. It's just an unwritten in such scenarios don't bite the hand that feeds.
[/quote]

Ridiculous. Because BC hasn't won majors means he knows nothing and should keep his mouth shut? By that logic Tiger would never have a swing coach not named Nicklaus, because who else knows more about golf than him?

[krayzejava]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1383251529' post='8085112']

That kinda speak to my point about Chamblee, however. If he held up that mirror, and saw reflected an entire career with one win, where does one get the outright audacity to give someone an "F" for a single season which quintoupled his own entire career win total?
If people like that ARE allowed to throw stones so incredibly casually like that, the whole thing becomes tantamount to monkeys flinging journalistic "doo" left and right whenever they see fit, justified only by "free speech" claims. We want people who would levy such criticisms to have something to stand on to justify it. Johnny Miller barely has such a career to justify it. Faldo, like him or loathe him, has the credentials to levy more critisim than a Chamblee can get away with if they ever do truly look in that mirror.

Tiger gets a lot of hate because so many made their careers hanging by his coattails for so long and people got tired of this narrow-minded coverage/focus. Tiger simply can't help that. And B.C. is a major golf "hanger-on" and forgot his place in all this. I said from the onset, B.C. and the entire Golf CHannel owe their careers to Woods. He made the golf bonanza that brought them into being, like it or not. Damn straight no one even knows who B.C. is without Tiger. We had the "King" and Tiger is the loathed Prince successor. They moved golf mountains (and boulders.) B.C. and crew have been along for the ride all along. It's just an unwritten in such scenarios don't bite the hand that feeds.
[/quote]

Grab the hammer and strike with all your might !!! You've hit the nail on the preverbal head !!

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Sunningdale' timestamp='1383249599' post='8084916']
Para 3 shows that it is you who can be unfair, though it doesn't show impulsivity in my opinion. To any reasonable person there is now plenty of evidence that Tiger is willing to play fast and loose with the rules, when he thinks he can get away with it. There is nothing 'unfair' about having this opinion about Tiger - the data are there if you are not blinded in some way. You may disagree with the charge - and clearly you do - but to imply that someone is "unfair" for this view is, well, just silly.

That Tiger and his henchmen are willing to make legal threats against BC over the matter tells us a great deal about his current ethics - it isn't very pretty but sadly it is consistent with some of his past behavior and appears to be part of his persona. This is most regrettable, I would much rather think highly of the man in all matters. That Rory is willing to say what he has recently said doesn't reflect well on the man either but he's young and there is perhaps hope he'll start thinking for himself.

Am I being "unfair" by saying this? - don't be ridiculous. Just disagree and state your reasons for disagreeing - it's an interesting and worthwhile discussion.
[/quote]
From where I sit, a truly REASONABLE person wouldn't assume that other pros aren't making similar rules violations, simply because there isn't a camera around to catch it. A truly REASONABLE person would realize---simply because Tiger is on-camera far more than any other golfer (in history)---that, even if he were committing the same number of rules violations as anyone else, it would necessarily create the APPEARANCE of him violating the rules more.

Just like it creates the appearence that he curses more than other players. Which other tour pros will tell you is NOT the case.

What Woods actions tell me is that he was willing to tolerate BC's rock throwing as long as it stayed within the lines, and was limited to only his game and his ability to perform on the course. But the moment it turned to character assassination, and began to become something that could threaten his livelihood and endorsements, that he was willing to use his economic power to put a stop to the unprofessional "journalistic" behavior.

Something done by powerful people in the business world everyday.

Bottom line, what BC did was within a hair's breadth of libel...and if he had done what he did to anyone who wasn't famous enough to be considered a "public figure" under the law, it WOULD have been libel. Which is why no one--in the professional world---is coming to his defense.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383252034' post='8085148']

Ridiculous. Because BC hasn't won majors means he knows nothing and should keep his mouth shut? By that logic Tiger would never have a swing coach not named Nicklaus, because who else knows more about golf than him?
[/quote]
Which Fortune 500 companies invite the janitors into the board meetings to give their two cents?
Come on, man. This ain't 2nd grade tee ball where everyone gets a trophy and "their opinion counts as much as everyone else."
It doesn't. That's life.

[playa]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383252034' post='8085148']


Ridiculous. Because BC hasn't won majors means he knows nothing and should keep his mouth shut? By that logic Tiger would never have a swing coach not named Nicklaus, because who else knows more about golf than him?
[/quote]Nicklaus wouldnt qualify under your criteria. Maybe Hogan.

[cardoustie]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383248801' post='8084840']


1. BC has a responsibility to talk about golf's leading figure...but that is not a right to subject him to libelous accusations that BC couldn't possible back up with any evidence.

2. His editor and his own son agree that what he did was unprofessional and out of line.

3. If you actually knew what NPD actually is, you would realize that TW couldn't possibly be one....and I think most athlete's would get upset if they were accused of cheating, and had the legitimacy of all their professional accomplishments called into question.

THAT is what BC did...and doesn't even have the character to really admit it....and either genuinely apologize, or stand behind it and take the full brundt of the heat for it.
[/quote]

KG
I'll respond
1. No libel exists in my opinion and in many legal experts' opinions
2. I don't believe either parts of BC's story about his son and editor. Doesn't pass my smell test. Rehearsed and dropped in for empathy IMO
3. I do know what NPD is ... thx v much .... and my opinion is that he clearly does have it

Can anyone in the room agree with me that the world is way WAY WAY to PC nowadays? Does it not bother you that Tiger is flexing his "rankings muscle" to
put one over on BC? It bothers me a lot. He has a history of black listing people that he believes crossed him and it continues

I respect Tiger as a golfer, I really do. It's just that I can't take his personality, he grates on me, especially since that sideshow of him coming on TV for a staged apology. Everyone is allowed to form their own opinions from the information and evidence that they've digested.

[Chief Illiniwek]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1383252601' post='8085188']

Which Fortune 500 companies invite the janitors into the board meetings to give their two cents?
Come on, man. This ain't 2nd grade tee ball where everyone gets a trophy and "their opinion counts as much as everyone else."
It doesn't. That's life.
[/quote]

BC is a janitor now? C'mon man he played on tour! He's in the top 99.9% of golfers. He's at least a Vice President, not a janitor!

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1383251101' post='8085076']


My silly question is just meant to highlight to you how wrong your assertion is that most dislike of Tiger Woods is based upon racism. Perhaps there is some, but I think most of the dislike is based upon his actions, temperament, and behavior.
[/quote]

Then you didn't bother to read my post very carefully, because I said nothing of the sort. I said the animosity has MULITPLE sources. But are still largely rooted in IDENTITY-level issues, of which race is only ONE.

...and you're welcome to think what you like.

But there is a LONG track record of hypocrisy, double-standards, selective memory, and histrionic catastrophizing where Tiger's "behavior" is concerned that shows there is very little---if any--truly PRINCIPLED basis to that argument.

...and that invoking such things are largely rationalizations to put a socially-acceptable face on resentments and hostilities that seem to have other bases.

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383251068' post='8085070']

At end of the day, TGC is a business...and will do whatever it think best serves its brand and its bottomline. I guarentee you there will BE no "heroic" First Amendment stands on Chamblee's behalf If this public "sword swallow" by Chamblee isn't enough to appease Woods...I guarentee you Chamblee will be out the door.

Because a cold war with an angry Tiger Woods will cost TGC far more revenue than BC could ever hope to bring in.

Never mind the cost if the lawyers get involved. So even if BC stays, he's going to be on a pretty short leash from here on. Which, I'm betting, is what Woods wanted out of this gambit.
[/quote]

And to me, this is a huge part of the problem...the "answer" becomes a function of what TW wants and those with the deepest pockets and most pull win again - We like to believe that one player isn't bigger than the game, but this is exactly the situation we're allowing to exist -

And simply b/c Tiger has done unspeakable things for the growth of the game (and all related parties), does this mean we're willing to gloss over his penchant for narcissism and bullying??