Caddie Question

DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
edited Jan 3, 2019 11:06pm in Juniors/College Golf Talk #1
It clearly states that on the green a caddie can not be behind player when taking stance to putt. Well, they can, so long as the player backs away from putt and re enters stance while caddie has moved away.



A caddie is still allowed to tend the pin, can the caddie still give advice even though player has taken stance? I’m wondering if phrases like “more left” or “more right” would be allowed. I know you can’t say aim at my foot, but I have looked over the rules multiple times and I believe this is allowed.



Thoughts?



*I posted this in general forum too, but it’s more applicable to our kids and their lack of ability to aim yet. Thinking 5-10 year olds!
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Comments

  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 698 ✭✭
    My understanding is once a stance is taken no advise can be given. But if you can’t be behind the player how could you say more right or left, not that any kids knows a right on a golf course anyways
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:
    Just don't. I quote Tigerswag, "Tourney results from 6-13 DO NOT MATTER."



    Let them putt, line up shots, etc. without your influence. They'll learn faster and be more independent.




    I agree. It is circumventing the rule. The rule is in place to help speed up pace. Doing what the OP is suggesting just made the round longer.



    Let the kids line themselves up. It is “NOT” a good thing for a parent to line a kid up. The child needs to read a green and learn to align themselves. Haven’t seen much success from kids whose parents overstep what their roll of caddy should be.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭

    leezer99 wrote:
    Just don't. I quote Tigerswag, "Tourney results from 6-13 DO NOT MATTER."



    Let them putt, line up shots, etc. without your influence. They'll learn faster and be more independent.




    I agree. It is circumventing the rule. The rule is in place to help speed up pace. Doing what the OP is suggesting just made the round longer.



    Let the kids line themselves up. It is “NOT” a good thing for a parent to line a kid up. The child needs to read a green and learn to align themselves. Haven’t seen much success from kids whose parents overstep what their roll of caddy should be.




    +1



    Be a caddie, not a crutch. By "over caddying" you are only enabling them and stunting their development. Let them figure it out. The sooner they can get around the course without any hand holding the better.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    I would call you out every time. Don’t care if you think it a loophole or not. You can’t stand behind the player once they take a stance. I am betting the officials would side with me too.



    If this sort of thing is allowed then I honestly would. Not want to play That tour. Some people need to learn let the kid hit the ball and stop over coaching.



  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    I’m pretty sure the moment a player takes their stance, if you are in the line, it is a penalty.
  • BrianMcGBrianMcG Members Posts: 2,273 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 9:29am #7
    Buy your kid a push cart and make him walk by himself.



    It blows my mind the amount of parent involvement in tournament golf these days. I think the only involvement should be to drop the kid off before their tee time and then take them to McDonalds after.
    Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
    Bobby: I play because I love it.
    Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Thanks for all the warm responses...I was just asking for clarification on the rules. I was reading the rules, by some of your responses you clearly have not...



    We have seen girls 5 and 6 putt from 10 feet on a regular basis at our local tour, painful to watch and phrases like this may speed up play for the kids that shoot 55-75 in local events!



    HH I agree it is circumventing the rule which is why I was wondering if people will do this or not. TIger—calling someone out for what you personally think is breaking a rule and it isn’t would make for an awkward day and lastly if I’m right and it is allowed it would be awful if your son were to play professionally one day and you wouldn’t have them play due to your own interpretations...
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭


    Thanks for all the warm responses...I was just asking for clarification on the rules. I was reading the rules, by some of your responses you clearly have not...



    We have seen girls 5 and 6 putt from 10 feet on a regular basis at our local tour, painful to watch and phrases like this may speed up play for the kids that shoot 55-75 in local events!



    HH I agree it is circumventing the rule which is why I was wondering if people will do this or not. TIger—calling someone out for what you personally think is breaking a rule and it isn't would make for an awkward day and lastly if I'm right and it is allowed it would be awful if your son were to play professionally one day and you wouldn't have them play due to your own interpretations...




    If you're so crystal clear on the rules yourself, then why did you post here?



    From the USGA. Read #6.



    "The current prohibition will be extended so that, once the player begins taking a stance for the stroke, and until the stroke is made, the player’s caddie must not deliberately stand on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason."



    If I were compelled to call penalties in a competition, and I saw a caddie consistently on the line as the player took their stance, I would call that as a penalty, even if the player subsequently backed off the stroke. I also read no exceptions thus far in how this rule is interpreted on the green versus all other areas of play.



    From the rules updates I received via USKG email..."If the player has taken his/her stance in breach of this rule, the player cannot avoid penalty by backing away."



    As for your question as to whether the caddie can give advice, that seems to be fully supported at any point during the stance or swing. Again, from the USGA document. "Although a player may get advice from a caddie on the shot to be played, the line of play and similar matters, the ability to line up one’s feet and body accurately to a target line is a fundamental skill of the game for which the player alone should be responsible."



    So feel free to give all the advice whenever you want. But if you're gonna circumvent the rules by having your player take a stance with you on the line, then back off that stance so you can remove yourself before they play the shot, you'll be collecting penalties at some point this year once everyone catches up to the new rules.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    BrianMcG wrote:


    Buy your kid a push cart and make him walk by himself.



    It blows my mind the amount of parent involvement in tournament golf these days. I think the only involvement should be to drop the kid off before their tee time and then take them to McDonalds after.




    Amen to this.



    This is not directed at the OP or to anyone else here. Just speaking in general. The helicopter parenting has turned into helicopter caddying. I see so many kids who are just clueless on the golf course unless their mom or dad is right by their side.



    I'd like to see kids walk and either use a push cart or carry a light "Sunday" bag. No caddies. Maybe have a couple adult volunteers stationed on each hole just to help keep things moving (help look for lost balls, attend the flagstick, rake bunkers, help with any drops or other rules situations, etc.) But let the kids think their own way around the golf course.



    Going down a rabbit hole here and don't want to turn this thread into something it wasn't intended for so I'll let myself out here.
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    The length of your post doesn’t equate to accuracy....keep reading. On the green player can back away and not have a penalty. Also to the OP when you talk about line of play, the caddie can pull the pin, that is the line and is allowed to be there, can they still give advice while taking stance?
  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭


    The length of your post doesn’t equate to accuracy....keep reading. On the green player can back away and not have a penalty. Also to the OP when you talk about line of play, the caddie can pull the pin, that is the line and is allowed to be there, can they still give advice while taking stance?




    I’m honestly asking so I can learn...show me something that says this is allowed on the green.



    As for holding the flagstick, that’s not “behind the player”, which is the lie you are expected to avoid. And it also states on the USGA doc I linked that you standing on that line must be deliberate to be called a penalty. That you happen to be on the line while tending a flagstick would most likely be considered accidental, unless you begin to give advice on how to align the putt as you reference your own position on the green.



    And again, as I mentioned, I saw nothing that prevented the caddie from giving advice. Just from standing on the line.



    I could keep it brief on the next post, but it seems you like to push boundaries. Sometimes it takes a few more words to work through that.
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Not pushing boundaries at all, just asking questions about scenarios that will come up that the rules don’t address



    http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-10.html





  • BertGABertGA Members Posts: 279 ✭✭
    Thanks for sharing that page. Makes sense, as the caddie is often still on the line reading break as the player addresses.
  • tiger1873tiger1873 Members Posts: 1,043 ✭✭
    edited Jan 4, 2019 3:01pm #15


    TIger—calling someone out for what you personally think is breaking a rule and it isn't would make for an awkward day and lastly if I'm right and it is allowed it would be awful if your son were to play professionally one day and you wouldn't have them play due to your own interpretations...




    The thing I don't believe what your saying is allowed at all and in fact cheating now. Because I am pretty sure your not allowed in 2019 rules to line up a player or stand behind and if a tournament allows caddies I would be pretty quick to warn you about a potential penalty. If you insisted to continue doing it. we would have to bring it up to an official to enforce the rules. Not sure how you wouldn't expect a playing partner to call you out if they see something.



    As a caddie you can help the player give advice and even read the green but your not supposed to line them up too and make sure there on target when they swing their club. What I have seen in tournaments with kids that has Caddies is pretty pathetic. Some parents will line the kids up video the swings and send texts to their coach during the round. Of course this sort of thing has always been a penalty and they act mad when you call them out. It's not the person calling them out the problem it's the parent over coaching.



    What I hate is when people circumvent the rules get caught and them complain about the person bringing it up as a problem. Oldest kid no longer has caddies and I love it because the kids somehow seem to work things out between them. They also seem to actually have more fun and talk too.
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Since you are insistent on calling people out, what rule would they be violating...look it up and reply.



    if I would have known this would turn into a “I’m going to call you out debate” or “don’t do that it’s not beneficial to their development debate” I wouldn’t have asked. So in effort to get back to the original point, what rule/rules is it violating or not violating? If you don’t want to discuss it then stop responding, so far only a few people have given actual input on the question others of you have given your philosophical stance on how you or others should parent/each their junior golfer.



    I thoroughly enjoy reading this forum, just not today.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭
    In post #11, BertGA is pretty clear about the 2 rules being discussed:



    1.) "once the player begins taking a stance for the stroke, and until the stroke is made, the player’s caddie must not deliberately stand on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason."



    Explanation = basically, if you lined him/her up and then they backed off, it's too late. It's already a penalty. A penalty is incurred the very second that the player is addressing the ball with the caddie lining them up. There's no "backing off" to erase the penalty. The penalty has already been earned.



    2.) "Although a player may get advice from a caddie on the shot to be played, the line of play and similar matters, the ability to line up one’s feet and body accurately to a target line is a fundamental skill of the game for which the player alone should be responsible."



    Explanation = It's fine to tell a player to "aim at the edge of that bunker" or "aim at that brown spot on the green." But it's not within the rules to tell them to shift their alignment one way or another once they are over the ball.
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    I believe both of those are in regard to off the green.
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    Thanks for all the warm responses...I was just asking for clarification on the rules. I was reading the rules, by some of your responses you clearly have not...



    We have seen girls 5 and 6 putt from 10 feet on a regular basis at our local tour, painful to watch and phrases like this may speed up play for the kids that shoot 55-75 in local events!



    HH I agree it is circumventing the rule which is why I was wondering if people will do this or not. TIger—calling someone out for what you personally think is breaking a rule and it isn’t would make for an awkward day and lastly if I’m right and it is allowed it would be awful if your son were to play professionally one day and you wouldn’t have them play due to your own interpretations...




    5-6 putts from 10 feet is usually a distance control issue, not an alignment issue. Furthermore, if they are 5-6 putting with a caddy then not using a caddy to align them isn’t going to hurt.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭


    I believe both of those are in regard to off the green.




    Where in the rule book does it say that?
  • CTgolfCTgolf Members Posts: 422 ✭✭
    Purpose of Rule: Rule 10 covers how to prepare for and make a stroke, including advice and other help the player may get from others (including caddies). The underlying principle is that golf is a game of skill and personal challenge.



    Purpose of Rule: A fundamental challenge for the player is deciding the strategy and tactics for his or her play. So there are limits to the advice and other help the player may get during a round.





    It is impossible for the Rules to come up with every possible scenario on the course. I personally feel that one should interpret the written rules taking the Purpose of Rule into account, and follow the spirit, as well as the letter, of the law.



    Golf is a game of honor, and I personally feel that going all the way up to, and even toeing, without crossing the line is not within the spirit of the game nor honorable.
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    It is implied in the rules and where the exceptions are made it clearly states it is separate from the green. Also in the two points you pointed out, point one talks about even if backing off once addressed it’s too late and there is a penalty, that is different than the green rules regarding caddie help and in point two you mentioned aiming at a bunker as a reference point, I can only conclude this is from off the green...For what it’s worth the “rules forum” believes it’s legal. I’m surprised by that, I also sent a message to our states HS coaches rules clinic guy to see what he says.
  • jj9000jj9000 ClubWRX Posts: 2,632 ClubWRX
    I point on the green where the line is that the putt needs to roll over.
  • fairways4lifefairways4life Members Posts: 1,553 ✭✭


    It is implied in the rules and where the exceptions are made it clearly states it is separate from the green. Also in the two points you pointed out, point one talks about even if backing off once addressed it’s too late and there is a penalty, that is different than the green rules regarding caddie help and in point two you mentioned aiming at a bunker as a reference point, I can only conclude this is from off the green...For what it’s worth the “rules forum” believes it’s legal. I’m surprised by that, I also sent a message to our states HS coaches rules clinic guy to see what he says.




    So at the root of this whole thing ... are you really considering doing this on all of their putts? Line up, back off, line up? Seems like quite the lengthy routine, no?
  • heavy_hitterheavy_hitter Members Posts: 3,067 ✭✭
    It is implied in the rules and where the exceptions are made it clearly states it is separate from the green. Also in the two points you pointed out, point one talks about even if backing off once addressed it’s too late and there is a penalty, that is different than the green rules regarding caddie help and in point two you mentioned aiming at a bunker as a reference point, I can only conclude this is from off the green...For what it’s worth the “rules forum” believes it’s legal. I’m surprised by that, I also sent a message to our states HS coaches rules clinic guy to see what he says.




    Why not just call the USGA?
  • DaddyCaddieIUDaddyCaddieIU Members Posts: 38 ✭✭
    Might just have to. Rules official messaged me back and said he believes it is legal because it doesn’t prohibit the actions. He said he will ask around. He is a USGA rules official for what it’s worth.



  • MikekiMMikekiM Members Posts: 192 ✭✭
    (4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:


    • The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.


    • If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away.


    Exception – Ball on Putting Green: When the player’s ball is on the putting green, there is no penalty under this Rule if the player backs away from the stance and does not begin to take the stance again until after the caddie has moved out of that location.
  • kekoakekoa ClubWRX Posts: 8,852 ClubWRX
    MikekiM wrote:


    (4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:
    • The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.
    • If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away.


    Exception – Ball on Putting Green: When the player’s ball is on the putting green, there is no penalty under this Rule if the player backs away from the stance and does not begin to take the stance again until after the caddie has moved out of that location.








    This is going to be huge at the US Kids level. I hope all tournament directors are making it a point to remind caddies of the new rules and the repercussions. Hopefully everyone is enforcing them as well or kids/caddies will never learn.
  • darter79darter79 Members Posts: 698 ✭✭
    kekoa wrote:

    MikekiM wrote:


    (4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:
    • The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.
    • If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away.


    Exception – Ball on Putting Green: When the player’s ball is on the putting green, there is no penalty under this Rule if the player backs away from the stance and does not begin to take the stance again until after the caddie has moved out of that location.








    This is going to be huge at the US Kids level. I hope all tournament directors are making it a point to remind caddies of the new rules and the repercussions. Hopefully everyone is enforcing them as well or kids/caddies will never learn.



    kekoa wrote:

    MikekiM wrote:


    (4) Restriction on Caddie Standing Behind Player. When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made:
    • The player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to an extension of the line of play behind the ball for any reason.
    • If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away.


    Exception – Ball on Putting Green: When the player’s ball is on the putting green, there is no penalty under this Rule if the player backs away from the stance and does not begin to take the stance again until after the caddie has moved out of that location.








    This is going to be huge at the US Kids level. I hope all tournament directors are making it a point to remind caddies of the new rules and the repercussions. Hopefully everyone is enforcing them as well or kids/caddies will never learn.






    The younger divisions are going to be brutal. I can just see the pace of play going wayyy up on this. When we left Girls 7U there are parents that would grab the club to alien them. Both in the fairway and on the putting green
  • AUSweeperAUSweeper Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    So what is the penalty for this infraction? I haven’t seen that mentioned.
  • AUSweeperAUSweeper Members Posts: 35 ✭✭
    leezer99 wrote:

    AUSweeper wrote:


    So what is the penalty for this infraction? I haven't seen that mentioned.




    Two strokes.



    FYI - pretty much any time you hear of a penalty being a General Penalty it's either two strokes in stroke play or loss of hole in match play.



    [url="https://www.randa.org/~/media/rules-modernization/resources-center/files/rules-fact-sheets---what-is-new---what-is-the-same.ashx"]R&A 2019 Rule Fact Sheet [/url] - warning PDF download




    Thanks. That’s what I figured but hadn’t seen it actually stated.

    I bet a lot of us already have a caddy in mind that is going to try to bend this rule or play dumb with the new rule.
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