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Stem cell injections hand wrist arthritis

juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
Has anyone here had these injections? Results?
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Comments

  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    Try Glucosamine
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    BB28403 wrote:


    Try Glucosamine




    Thanks, have tried varying dosages in conjunction with MSM too, pretty much done all the natural therapies I can including PT. What I'm doing now is an anti inflammatory diet, something I did about 2 years ago with success--but I wasn't up to the task to continue it and slowly reverted. Now I haven't completed 18 holes in a while, sometimes quitting after 2 or 3 in frustration as I cannot hold the club in the takeaway and my swing begins to echo Charles Barkley as I stand the club up vertically to avoid the pain that comes with a real swing.
  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Advanced Members Posts: 1,646 ✭✭
    Are your bones deforming or is it just pain from inflammation? If it is inflammation I would make sure that it is not caused by trigger points in the arms, neck and shoulders.
  • MillbrookMillbrook Advanced Members Posts: 1,689 ✭✭
    Have you tried touch tuina massage. I was told I needed an operation for carpel tunnel syndrome and the massage cured it.
    All comments are made from the point of
    view of my learning and not a claim
    to expertise.
  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    I have heard of people doing stem cells for a lot of therapies these days. For hair loss, quadriplegics , etc etc. I’m just hoping they will be able to regrow teeth in the next ohhh 5 years. Please and thanks! Haha

    But sure if you’ve tried everything else then go with stem cells. They prob work.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Golfbeat wrote:


    Are your bones deforming or is it just pain from inflammation? If it is inflammation I would make sure that it is not caused by trigger points in the arms, neck and shoulders.




    Thanks for your reply. Xrays show severe arthritis at the STT joint in the right hand and severe arthritic and biologic conditions in other small thumb/wrist joint areas on left and on right hand/wrists. Golfing pain is predominantly right hand/wrist and as a LH golfer it's the support hand for the backswing and transition.



    Have seen the best chiropractors around, more than one, checking out potential trigger points but the pain strongly appears to be localized in nature.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    edited January 28
    BB28403 wrote:


    I have heard of people doing stem cells for a lot of therapies these days. For hair loss, quadriplegics , etc etc. I’m just hoping they will be able to regrow teeth in the next ohhh 5 years. Please and thanks! Haha

    But sure if you’ve tried everything else then go with stem cells. They prob work.




    Yeah that's why I'm trying to get feedback. There has been a proliferation of stem cell harvesting and injecting clinics throughout the USA, with a dearth of---or maybe zero?--double blind studies on its efficacy. A lot of anecdotal positive evidence from the injectors but it's rarely covered by insurance and very very expensive. What I'm looking at now, for example, is both hands and both shoulders (torn labrums in both shoulders from whitewater rafting "adventures") $8,000
  • jarturojarturo Members Posts: 19
    edited January 28
    I have had prolo therapy, PRP, and stem cell for various ailments (I'm 63 year old golfer and hockey player).



    My last big injury was a left shoulder issue (Nov. 2016) from kettle bell type lift of a 50 lb portable generator that caught a pressure washer handle and stopped the generator in mid pull. (OUCH)



    The MRI was inconclusive, and the ultrasound showed internal tears of the surpa and infraspinatus tendons. Two PRP injection in January 2017 and April 2017 did not help ($600/each). I had a stem cell injection in December 2017 ($3,500 - discounted since I had 2 PRP injections) and the tears healed. But...I developed a bone spur in the shoulder that was removed on Dec. 7, 2018. The surprise was the tendons were torn 2 cm off the bone and now surgically reattached by doctor number 2 . Six weeks in a sling and a lengthy 6 month rehab.

    This tendon issue would have been properly diagnosed had any of the doctors done an ultra sound while the arm was in motion.



    Jack
  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    jarturo wrote:
    I have had prolo therapy, PRP, and stem cell for various ailments (I'm 63 year old golfer and hockey player).



    My last big injury was a left shoulder issue (Nov. 2016) from kettle bell type lift of a 50 lb portable generator that caught a pressure washer handle and stopped the generator in mid pull. (OUCH)



    The MRI was inconclusive, and the ultrasound showed internal tears of the surpa and infraspinatus tendons. Two PRP injection in January 2017 and April 2017 did not help ($600/each). I had a stem cell injection in December 2017 ($3,500 - discounted since I had 2 PRP injections) and the tears healed. But...I developed a bone spur in the shoulder that was removed on Dec. 7, 2018. The surprise was the tendons were torn 2 cm off the bone and now surgically reattached by doctor number 2 . Six weeks in a sling and a lengthy 6 month rehab.

    This tendon issue would have been properly diagnosed had any of the doctors done an ultra sound while the arm was in motion.



    Jack




    Why would you jerk up a generator like that? And ouch!
  • jarturojarturo Members Posts: 19
    My impatience did it.



    Neighborhood setting up for the Halloween spooky trail through the woods, and they wanted to have power for a couple of devices at the middle of the trail (500 yards from no power). Drove home to picked up the generator in the garage. There was a lot of stuff in the way and I did not take the time to moved it to get easy access. Reached over the lawn mower and did the pull/lift. Had it missed the pressure washer handle then I would not have had the self created mess.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Advanced Members Posts: 7,051 ✭✭




    Try CBD oil. Lots of positive chatter about it. I haven’t tried it yet but I will soon. Supposed to help inflammation.
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    edited January 29
    jarturo wrote:


    I have had prolo therapy, PRP, and stem cell for various ailments (I'm 63 year old golfer and hockey player).



    My last big injury was a left shoulder issue (Nov. 2016) from kettle bell type lift of a 50 lb portable generator that caught a pressure washer handle and stopped the generator in mid pull. (OUCH)



    The MRI was inconclusive, and the ultrasound showed internal tears of the surpa and infraspinatus tendons. Two PRP injection in January 2017 and April 2017 did not help ($600/each). I had a stem cell injection in December 2017 ($3,500 - discounted since I had 2 PRP injections) and the tears healed. But...I developed a bone spur in the shoulder that was removed on Dec. 7, 2018. The surprise was the tendons were torn 2 cm off the bone and now surgically reattached by doctor number 2 . Six weeks in a sling and a lengthy 6 month rehab.

    This tendon issue would have been properly diagnosed had any of the doctors done an ultra sound while the arm was in motion.



    Jack




    Sorry to hear about this Jack. You tried to do the right thing, maybe a bit too quickly but were pretty harshly penalized. No doubt a better diagnosis could have saved you lots of moolah and time. Hope you heal perfectly. So the stem cell injections healed the tear--did that lessen your pain or was the bone spur the real cause of your pain? When I tore my shoulder labrum--which showed up on an arthrogram--dye injected kind of procedure e x t r e m e l y painful--the shoulder doc said if he were to operate on everyone who showed a tear somewhere he'd perform about 4 unneeded surgeries out of every 5 patients. So were the tears the cause of your pain?
  • Zip-in-ZZip-in-Z Z-Z's First Love - 1970 Advanced Members Posts: 769 ✭✭
    edited January 30
    I had four Stem Cell procedure injections done in April 2018 in my lower back, it's helped me significantly. In August 2018 I went back for six PRP injections, Doc said it's a Stem Cell Booster & would further promote the stem cells to regenerate. So far I can truthfully say I've seen some significant improvements and have scheduled a second PRP treatment in April 2019. I'm told it doesn't work for everyone, but it worked for me.



    Wish you all the best.



    David.



    You may wish to check out this old thread "For Tiger, it was fusion. For Jack, stem cells".



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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Thank you for responding to this discussion. Read the thread you linked to and interestingly I was in Munich last year seeking out Eckharft Alt at his clinic (guy who injected Nicklaus in 2016?)

    German gov’t closed his clinic-and I had been scheduled to be seen). Not sure it’s reopened.
  • Hawkeye77Hawkeye77 Countdown to The Masters! ClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 16,734 ClubWRX
    juliette91 wrote:


    Thank you for responding to this discussion. Read the thread you linked to and interestingly I was in Munich last year seeking out Eckharft Alt at his clinic (guy who injected Nicklaus in 2016?)

    German gov't closed his clinic-and I had been scheduled to be seen). Not sure it's reopened.




    He moved to Jupiter.
  • jarturojarturo Members Posts: 19
    The bone spurs were the cause of the pain.

    I had a lidocaine injection in the supraspinatis and "magically for 30 minutes " no pain. I could load/pressure my arm away from my body with no problem.



    The above helped set up the confusion or miss on the underlying issue.



    Jack
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    edited February 14
    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    juliette91 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.




    2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.



    Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.
  • JagpilotohioJagpilotohio 45+ inch drivers are evil. Advanced Members Posts: 7,051 ✭✭
    Wow. Sounds rough. Appreciate the updates. I’m not there yet but my hands and left shoulder will surely need help one day soon.
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  • jarturojarturo Members Posts: 19
    My shoulder stem cell injections were as yours (Stem cell, PRP, and fat cells).

    The doc injected several spots. The pain was pretty bad for a week as I could barely lift or move my arm. Each week was better and by the end of the month I was back to the pain level before the injection.



    Funny how there was no real mention from the doctor that this might be very painful for a while.



    Jack
  • Zip-in-ZZip-in-Z Z-Z's First Love - 1970 Advanced Members Posts: 769 ✭✭
    Juliette ... it gets better with time, in April 2018 had my stem cells injected into 4 locations (L4/5 & L5/S1) in my lower back. Doc gave me an RX for Tramadol as they don’t want you taking any anti-inflammatory for a minimum 4-week period, like Ibuprofen, Naproxen, Aleve or products like Voltaren, Turmeric and/or ice which all could inhibit the healing & regeneration process.



    I'm currently hiding from winter in the Palm Springs area until mid-April it's been cool & raining here, but I'm still golfing and feeling better than ever.



    Wish you all the best.



    David
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    edited February 15
    jarturo wrote:


    My shoulder stem cell injections were as yours (Stem cell, PRP, and fat cells).

    The doc injected several spots. The pain was pretty bad for a week as I could barely lift or move my arm. Each week was better and by the end of the month I was back to the pain level before the injection.



    Funny how there was no real mention from the doctor that this might be very painful for a while.



    Jack






    Well you know how a physician’s estimate of pain usually understates things. That was the case here. I figure now it will take a month to get to pre injection condition-I hope. I do have faith that I will improve 25-50% over pre-injection condition. The literature, anecdotal though it is (decent patient numbers but not double blind) supports that. Read a book called The Cure written by I think an MD dr. researcher and am now a true believer in optimistic thinking.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭


    Juliette ... it gets better with time, in April 2018 had my stem cells injected into 4 locations (L4/5 & L5/S1) in my lower back. Doc gave me an RX for Tramadol as they don’t want you taking any anti-inflammatory for a minimum 4-week period, like Ibuprofen, Naproxen, Aleve or products like Voltaren, Turmeric and/or ice which all could inhibit the healing & regeneration process.



    I'm currently hiding from winter in the Palm Springs area until mid-April it's been cool & raining here, but I'm still golfing and feeling better than ever.



    Thanks for your post and information. Have you actually improved over pre injection condition?



    Wish you all the best.



    David
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Has your condition improved over pre injection?
  • Zip-in-ZZip-in-Z Z-Z's First Love - 1970 Advanced Members Posts: 769 ✭✭
    juliette91 wrote:


    Has your condition improved over pre injection?




    Yes .... my lower back has improved significantly, I'm even hitting the ball better and getting more distance. The big difference is I'm not taking Advil, Tylenol, Aleve etc just to get through the day. I'm sure you were provided with a number of daily stretching/strengthening exercises to start doing once your Doc says it OK, that will help you further, stay focused, it gets better. When I get home in mid-April I'm scheduled for another PRP treatment (6 needles) in the same area to further promote the stem cell generation\repair process.



    Cheers



    David
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Thanks David, Today marks the first 4 full days since my many injections. Since I had both hands, both wrists and both shoulders, with multiples in each I’m progressing just fine. Did the 5 day water fast in prep and hope that boosted my stem cell count. Regardless, I remain very confident I will lessen my pain by 20-50%.
  • RohlioRohlio Advanced Members Posts: 2,290 ✭✭
    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.
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  • mukstermukster Experimenting with shafts Advanced Members Posts: 3,408 ✭✭
    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    Yeah, I looked around, but cannot find any proper data on this, other than advertisements and anecdotal information. There seems to be a lot more solid data when you research "placebo effect".
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  • jaydubjaydub Advanced Members Posts: 177
    I would recommend that everyone be very cautious about this type of treatment. Very little true proof that this type of treatment works. It is apparently difficult for the FDA to regulate these treatments and claims. There is a tremendous placebo effect in medicine. You treat enough people there are going to be some who feel that there was improvent, and then you use these patients for testimonials. Real proof requires rigidly constructed medical studies that are very expensive. Best to trust your favorite orthopedic surgeon for advise, or get an appointment at a university med center ortho department. Injections of the wrong product into a joint might cause additional damage.
  • Darth_BladerDarth_Blader Advanced Members Posts: 979 ✭✭
    Several years of working on cars, houses, check sorters (IBM 3890s), not to mention growing up on the mean streets of Des Moines have taken a toll on my hands.



    This year it has really been a pain the hands. Thinking about jumbo grips. I have been researching everything from tumeric to stem cell.



    Thanks for sharing the information!
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    I agree but there are better clinics and better harvesting and better stem cell production dietary advice and many parts of this process where quality can easily be affected. My injections were done under a fluoroscope and with ultrasound after an exam by an interventional radiologist. He pinpointed the areas of inflammation and arthritis and tearing and cysts and addressed them with this stem cell cocktail from autologous fat, bone marrow and a big blood draw for platelet rich plasma spinning. Still, you're correct, the only study (and it's for the knee) that could pass double blind muster is a 6 month study started in October, 2018, not completed yet and likely not published (if at all) for at least a year or so the way publishing lags behind study completion.



    Based upon my reading of "Cure: A Journey into the Science of Mind Over Body" I'm do believe this will help me. Am I as skeptical as you? Just about but I know that I've done this as well as I could with probably one of the best practitioners around doing it. His anecdotal results are generally pretty good but like any averages there will be some helped a lot and some not at all. For my severe condition he acknowledged no cure but thought 25-50% pain improvement could be achieved. For me it remains my last hope and I think if my hands had about 40% less pain I could hold the club open through a sand shot and take the club away and not give up midway through the takeaway because of its weight making it impossible to hold onto. I do know, having visited 3 different hand surgeons with no consensus diagnosis on where the arthritis causing the pain emanated, that the available surgical solutions would be many months, deform my thumb and hold out only a 70-75% success rate. No doubt if this doesn't work and I cannot golf I'll likely take those odds too. Thanks for weighing in!
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Day 5. My hands are almost to the pain level of pre injection but my shoulders are very painful. The shoulder with the 270 degree labrum tear is especially so and I cannot raise my right arm to parallel with the ground without considerable pain. Have been told that this pain level is or could be quite normal. Since I'm not to take any anti inflammatory potions (I guess that's how the stem cell therapy is supposed to work, by creating inflammation, so you're not supposed to squelch it) I just live with it and it's much more than I thought it would be at this time. It's gotten progressively worse over the past 2 days.



    Will check in again after Day 10.
  • RohlioRohlio Advanced Members Posts: 2,290 ✭✭
    juliette91 wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    I agree but there are better clinics and better harvesting and better stem cell production dietary advice and many parts of this process where quality can easily be affected. My injections were done under a fluoroscope and with ultrasound after an exam by an interventional radiologist. He pinpointed the areas of inflammation and arthritis and tearing and cysts and addressed them with this stem cell cocktail from autologous fat, bone marrow and a big blood draw for platelet rich plasma spinning. Still, you're correct, the only study (and it's for the knee) that could pass double blind muster is a 6 month study started in October, 2018, not completed yet and likely not published (if at all) for at least a year or so the way publishing lags behind study completion.



    Based upon my reading of "Cure: A Journey into the Science of Mind Over Body" I'm do believe this will help me. Am I as skeptical as you? Just about but I know that I've done this as well as I could with probably one of the best practitioners around doing it. His anecdotal results are generally pretty good but like any averages there will be some helped a lot and some not at all. For my severe condition he acknowledged no cure but thought 25-50% pain improvement could be achieved. For me it remains my last hope and I think if my hands had about 40% less pain I could hold the club open through a sand shot and take the club away and not give up midway through the takeaway because of its weight making it impossible to hold onto. I do know, having visited 3 different hand surgeons with no consensus diagnosis on where the arthritis causing the pain emanated, that the available surgical solutions would be many months, deform my thumb and hold out only a 70-75% success rate. No doubt if this doesn't work and I cannot golf I'll likely take those odds too. Thanks for weighing in!




    Let me just add that saying "we don't know" is not the same as "I don't think it will"



    I really hope it works for you. I want these procedures to be effective, but I must confess the medical fields ignorance in knowing if they do.
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Understood. Thanks for the kind words.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    edited February 22
    Day 10 post injection. Both hands ever so slightly improving, with 120% of pre-injection pain. Both shoulders have about 130-150% more pain than pre-injection but also ever so slowly improving. Hoping improvement is not linear or I’ll never even get back to pre injection pain levels in the 2 months it’s supposed to take to achieve
  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    juliette91 wrote:
    juliette91 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.




    2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.



    Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.




    Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?
  • RohlioRohlio Advanced Members Posts: 2,290 ✭✭
    BB28403 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:
    juliette91 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.




    2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.



    Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.




    Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?




    Procedures, unlike drugs, need not go through efficacy trials... They basically just have to prove that they won't kill you right now.
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  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    edited February 27
    Rohlio wrote:
    BB28403 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:
    juliette91 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.




    2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.



    Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.




    Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?




    Procedures, unlike drugs, need not go through efficacy trials... They basically just have to prove that they won't kill you right now.




    YMMV

    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • dlygrissedlygrisse Advanced Members Posts: 12,942 ✭✭


    Try CBD oil. Lots of positive chatter about it. I haven’t tried it yet but I will soon. Supposed to help inflammation.




    I've tried the topical and while it feels nice for a few seconds I don't notice any lasting effects. Tried the oral drops and I developed intestinal "issues" not sure if it's a coincidence or I just caught a bug...but it is a side effect. Didn't notice any inflammation change either. YMMV

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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    BB28403 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:
    juliette91 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.




    2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.



    Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.




    Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?




    The only double blind study I can find is something that started October 2018 for stem cell injections for knee issues. It's a 6 month study and who knows when those results would be published. Only caution I'd throw your way is that while it's always good to be skeptical, remember that Western medicine has been around for only a little over 200 years and there are other remedies, cures and approaches that work which just because no one's ponied up a couple mil for a double blind study doesn't make them voodoo.



    Jack Nicklaus had these injections, done by a guy I actually sought out in Munich, Germany. That clinic was shut down by the German government but that guy moved to Jupiter, Fla. and apparently met Nicklaus at Nicklaus' 75th bday party--then later did the stem cell injections that Nicklaus has gone public with praising for his results.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Day 16. My hands are ever so s l o w l y improving, my wrists about the same slow pace, my shoulders still ache but are improving. I'd say now my hands are about 110-120% of pre injection pain levels and shoulders are about 120% of pre injection pain levels. All signs are s l o w l y improving but it's definitely not a linear chart. I can kind of sleep on my side for longer periods of time (shoulders of course involved) and finally the pain from the harvesting site of the bone marrow (ilium) is going down. That was really uncomfortable for a long time.
  • BB28403BB28403 Advanced Members Posts: 2,723 ✭✭
    edited February 27
    juliette91 wrote:
    BB28403 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:
    juliette91 wrote:

    juliette91 wrote:


    Has anyone here had these injections? Results?




    will post my results here. on the 12th I had stem cells from my bone marrow and fat (my own fat) plus platelet rich plasma from my blood (they draw a lot of blood to do this!), so called PRP and all three were mixed in an injection cocktail that I received for my poor thumb/wrist joint in my RH, same issue but a bit less severe and in different places in my LH, plus both my shoulders which have torn labrums. Fwiw I could play golf with these torn labrums somehow but they curtailed many other activities that I love to do. So what the ****, had them all injected.



    Holy mackerel, the pain of the injections was probably an 8 on the scale of 1-10 with 10 being passing out. That night the pain most of the night was 8-9. 2nd night most of the pain was about a 6-7. Both shoulders have very limited motion now and pain but it's only not quite the 2nd day. Results, good or none, are expected within about 6 weeks. Will keep you posted.




    2.5 days in, LH still swollen and hurting from it, RH less swollen and not very painful, just a shade more painful than pre injection procedure. Shoulders different story. Pain in RS is akin to the initial tearing of the labrum, no position possible without pain and sleeping was not possible without pain but I did fall asleep for a couple hours. Dr. says swelling is normal (sent him the pictures of my hands) and he is a trustworthy pro so I will hold off on complaining.



    Mostly want to continue to report my results since others of you out there have contacted me wanting to know how this goes.




    Sounds like some voodoo medicine. Has this stuff gone thru medical trials ?




    The only double blind study I can find is something that started October 2018 for stem cell injections for knee issues. It's a 6 month study and who knows when those results would be published. Only caution I'd throw your way is that while it's always good to be skeptical, remember that Western medicine has been around for only a little over 200 years and there are other remedies, cures and approaches that work which just because no one's ponied up a couple mil for a double blind study doesn't make them voodoo.



    Jack Nicklaus had these injections, done by a guy I actually sought out in Munich, Germany. That clinic was shut down by the German government but that guy moved to Jupiter, Fla. and apparently met Nicklaus at Nicklaus' 75th bday party--then later did the stem cell injections that Nicklaus has gone public with praising for his results.




    Western medicine is based on teachings far older than 200 years old.

    And really the only things that matter are those that prolong our lives, fighting heart disease, smoking , blood pressure medicines and antibiotics. Sure everything else that happens outside of those things is great. Medicine nowadays is a real heavyweight because think about it, even dumb ignoramuses are living longer .



    You have diabetes? , we can keep you living.

    Killing yourself with smoking? We can keep you living

    Your a Fatty? We can keep you living

    Eat fast food everyday? We can keep you living

    Crazy high blood pressure that can kill a camel? We gotcha !

    Have an infection that would have killed anyone 100 year ago? Take a pill



    And if Chinese medicine is so smart and eastern medicine, why are their cities filled with smog ? In India they throw trash wherever, here, there, everywhere. That’s what I don’t get, people say they went over there and learned teachings , yoga this, acupuncture that. And if I went over there all I would see is filth and smog. Cmon, fix the filth and the smog then I may say your intelligence is improving as a whole.

    Is China going to grow new lungs for all the people who are developing lung cancer from all that smog and pollution? Where are your stem cells to fix that.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Uh oh, touched a nerve. My bad for bringing this up. Neither of us could help expressing how we feel but neither of our posts are on topic.
  • ddettsddetts Ty Webb Sioux Falls, SDClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 1,380 ClubWRX
    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.



    Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.

    > See my current WITB
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    My procedure was at a Regenexx network clinic and for what it's worth it was the most professional service oriented medical experience I've ever had. If that level of service and professionalism translated to stem cell PRP injection results I'll be ecstatic.



    I completely understand all who have weighed in here urging caution. That is absolutely necessary as there are many clinics offering what I received without nearly the level of what looked like competence. I'd researched sufficiently to be able to ask questions that raised the eyebrows of the clinic assistants--and the treating doctor--but that took a lot of work and educating to accomplish and I'm sure most people would not do nearly that kind of a deep dive.



    Thank you all for your comments.
  • RohlioRohlio Advanced Members Posts: 2,290 ✭✭
    ddetts wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.



    Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.




    My thoughts are unchanged.



    1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

    2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.



    Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).
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  • ddettsddetts Ty Webb Sioux Falls, SDClubWRX Charter Members Posts: 1,380 ClubWRX
    Rohlio wrote:

    ddetts wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    What are your thoughts on [url="https://www.regenexx.com/results/research/"]Regenexx[/url]? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.



    Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure ([url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24744611"]https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611[/url]). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.




    My thoughts are unchanged.



    1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

    2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.



    Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).




    I don't work in the medical industry, so perhaps I don't know enough about what makes a credible study. The link I posted was sourced from PubMed.



    I believe one of the original studies, which most of the avascular necrosis use cases in the US aware modeled after, was done by Dr. Hernigou of France in the 90s or early 2000s. I'll see if I can find that paper.

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  • RohlioRohlio Advanced Members Posts: 2,290 ✭✭
    ddetts wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:

    ddetts wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    What are your thoughts on [url="https://www.regenexx.com/results/research/"]Regenexx[/url]? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.



    Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure ([url="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24744611"]https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611[/url]). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.




    My thoughts are unchanged.



    1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

    2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.



    Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).




    I don't work in the medical industry, so perhaps I don't know enough about what makes a credible study. The link I posted was sourced from PubMed.



    I believe one of the original studies, which most of the avascular necrosis use cases in the US aware modeled after, was done by Dr. Hernigou of France in the 90s or early 2000s. I'll see if I can find that paper.




    That would be considered an extremely low level piece of evidence. No control group, no blinding, hasn't been repeated, etc. Only the 2002 study had positive results 24 out of 189 hips injected. Only for early stage AVN, so not generalizable. A good paper that should spur further research. Nowhere near the level of proof of efficacy.



    Also impossible to generalize to use for regeneration of cartilage in a synovial joint.



    I really look forward to seeing how this all shakes out over the coming years... We lost a whole decade of research on this stuff due to stupid politics.
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  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    Rohlio wrote:

    ddetts wrote:

    Rohlio wrote:


    I have researched (or rather tried researching) stem cell injection efficacy for countless of my patients. The fact is we have absolutely no idea about their efficacy, beyond pure anecdote at this point. We have no real data on what conditions, whom, how much, etc.



    The only thing we know for sure is that they appear to carry a very low risk profile. So if you have money to burn why not try?



    I have seen very few patients have much result out of them except that their wallet is lighter so maybe their back/shoulder/knee hurt less from carrying all that cash around. People really want them to work (and I do to) so that carries a very strong confirmation bias and placebo effect.



    Basically we don't know if they work, but they are unlikely to harm you.




    What are your thoughts on Regenexx? They treat a plethora of conditions with PRP, stem cells, and procedures. I know of them through my research after being diagnosed with avascular necrosis (osteonecrosis) of the hip. They seem to have been on the forefront of bringing this to the US and from what I can tell are big advocates for doing stem cells the "right way". I read some of their blog posts and they call out a lot of shoddy practices, "products", etc.



    Also, I know that stem cells can be a good option for bone regeneration. I actually had this procedure (https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24744611). While it wasn't completely successful for me (due to additional factors, mainly my femur had already begun collapsing) there are reports that it's ~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN.




    My thoughts are unchanged.



    1. What is "The right way" nobody has the data or at least nobody has published data for peer review that indicates some practices are better than others.

    2. To my knowledge no efficacy studies have been done beyond internal data from the company selling the procedure to support a claim such as "~75-80% successful in preventing femur head collapse for AVN", if you know of a study that has been published in a peer reviewed journal that supports this claim please share it because I was unable to locate it.



    Again, I hope this stuff works, but the fact of the matter is we are years from knowing, who, how much, when, when not, how etc. about these things. The quality of the place performing the procedure indicates a market advantage in selling the product and does not change the fact that the claims of efficacy are currently unsubstantiated (which does not mean they are false).




    Agree completely. If I hadn't been forced into a corner with surgical options so poor I would never have gone this route. Always thought it had a chance at success, from what I've read and from people who've had similar treatments, but really my decision wasn't influenced by some kind of blind spot to the lack of critical studies, it was influenced by pain and the inability to play golf or other sports because of it.
  • juliette91juliette91 Advanced Members Posts: 1,432 ✭✭
    As for critical studies, double blind or whatever, since this is now and will for a long time be an elective not insurance covered treatment the number of people trying it will be considerably less than if it were somehow covered. Realize that's a chicken and egg thing because it will never be covered unless it's proven effective---to save insurance companies money--and it could impact many medical industries now built up to treat these conditions in the way that now is "customary." Don't underestimate the power of companies to block innovation if it hurts their bottom line.
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