Driver Fitting.

[One Up Golfer]

Question about a Professional Club Fitter.

Hi guys, I'm an Independant Professional Golfer who has been playing the SMALL Mini-Tours for years. I have helped HUNDREDS of golfers on other sites with their swings.

I would like some INPUT about a situation that has arisen with a local club fitter.

The guy SUPPOSEDLY has been setting up clubs for TONS of professionals across the country when they stop into my town. He has all kinds of pictures with autographs of the Pros whose clubs he has worked on.

He shafted ONE DRIVER for me a couple of years ago and drilled out MOST of the inside of a Matrix Ozik Tp 7x shaft. He drilled 18 inches into it and said that he was still getting EPOXY out of it. I told him that the Matrix shaft has a "NARROW" ID and he was CUTTING MY SHAFT. He told me that I was crazy. He then put my driver together and the epoxy came loose after about 30 hits. He was away on a cruise so I fixed the driver myself.

I've known him casually for about 3 years. He has given me shims, ferrules, and checked the swing weight on my clubs for free. I have slipped him a $50 here and there over the years against his protests.

Now, I'm at his range the other day trying to fix my Cleveland Hi-Bore XL Tour (Retail head.) with a Brand New Matrix Ozik Tp7x Gloss Black shaft that was made specifically for V. J. Singh. I had to use a different brand of epoxy because they were out of my normal brand where I get it. Well, it came loose. This time I was able to get my regular brand and re-intall the shaft into the head. The problem is that the shaft wound up setting about a 1/4 inch clock-wise from the shaft's spine alignment. I also tipped the shaft a half inch to get it to length since I had butt trimmed it to a 1/2" over my normal length at first so that I could play the club and decide whether to tip it or butt trim it to final length. I also broke off two tangs on my shim so that I could install the shaft so that the face angle was square instead of 3* open. (I also used glass shafting beads.)

The club felt light and was just JUNK to hit. I used my back-up driver the last 4 rounds I played. I decided to put some lead tape on the head to see if it would feel & perform better. It worked but was a little TOO heavy. This club fitter came over to me and had me bring the driver into his shop. He questioned me about the club and I told him what I had done with it. He said that I "RUINED" the flex and kick point by tipping it a 1/2 inch. (The matrix website suggests tipping the the shaft a 1/2 for ANY install that is NOT in a bore through.) He clamped the grip into his vise and mounted a 6 inch laser under the sahft and then TWANGED the head. The laser was DEAD STRAIGHT for the first 80% of it's flexing and began to figure 8 just before it stopped. He said that the shaft was WAY out of alignment and that the 1/4 inch clockwise off at setup was NOT enough to cause this. (I thought he was CRAZY because I have spined MANY a shaft and a 1/4" rotation can be a Night & Day difference.)

I went on to explain the face angle and all, he said, "Dave, you are WAY TOO TECHNICAL with your clubs". (I was flabberghasted.) I told him that I do not like having lead tape on my club head and would like to fix this. He told me to call him this week and we could "BOTH" work on the driver together.

I called him today and he said that that Hot Melt was not an option and that he could just put lead powder down the shaft and cork it to get the proper swing weight. (My back-up driver is a D-4 SW and this one was at D-9 with the lead tape on it.) I questioned him, asking about the weight being HIGHER and CLOSER to the face vs. using hot melt and drilling the hosel out and using a Flex-Tube to put the hot melt LOW and at the back of the head like where the lead tape was. I also told him about how I had manipulated the face angle when installing the shaft. He said that he would "NOT TOUCH THE CLUB" since I was concerned about the face angle. :doh:

The lead tape I put on the head got my shot dispersion back where it belonged but the club head speed was too low. I took some of the tape off and was still able to control the shots and got the clubhead speed back up to where it should be.

Here's my MAIN question, am I missing something here or is this guy really a "QUACK"? He wants to have me bring in my irons to have them re-gripped and to fit me for everything down to my putter. He only wants $100.00 for this but "I" think that he is full of CRAP. I have done most ALL of my own club work for the last 8 years and only go to a club maker to have my shafts pulled since I live in a Condo and have nowhere to set up a proper work bench.

Should I TRUST this guy or is my instinct correct about him even though he has all of these Pros taking pictures with him and he allegedly has worked on their clubs to their satisfaction?

Thanks guys, I'm NOT use to asking for advise, I usually give it but that is normally for the golf swing and NOT about club making.

Sincerely,

DVJ

[jaskanski]

Sounds like you'd moan if you got Joe Kwok to do your clubs.

If you want a job doing well, do it yourself. Just my 2 cents.

[Slapjax7s]

I wouldnt take it to this guy. My question is by playing tours over the years, didnt you meet anyone else who is good at club work?

[One Up Golfer]

I wouldnt take it to this guy. My question is by playing tours over the years, didnt you meet anyone else who is good at club work?

 

Yes, there is a guy about 30 miles south of me that has done excellent work for me over the past 18 years but is now in semi-retirement.

 

I was just looking for other opinions of my situation since I seem to have a bit of a OCD and have been this way since I was a kid.

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

[Grum]

I'd say if you are happy with clubs you've built yourself stick with it.

 

Alternatively, stick with your other guy. Get to know him and learn anything that you might not know from him.

Not having somewhere to do your own work is a bit of a pain however.

[Slapjax7s]

I wouldnt take it to this guy. My question is by playing tours over the years, didnt you meet anyone else who is good at club work?

 

Yes, there is a guy about 30 miles south of me that has done excellent work for me over the past 18 years but is now in semi-retirement.

 

I was just looking for other opinions of my situation since I seem to have a bit of a OCD and have been this way since I was a kid.

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

 

In that case, do them yourself i guess. I understand your situation, but someone like you will never like what others have to offer you. Many club makers have their "own way" of doing thing, you just need to make an adjustment.

[azone]

DVJ,

 

I have followed your posts and thinking for several years. I started doing my own club work 13 years ago because it was the ONLY way I could get what I wanted, when I wanted it, and the way I wanted it. I've learned a lot from other people, research, and experience. I do ALL of my own work, unless I farm out a specific task with specific instructions. I do work for others who have similar standards. All my opinions are experience-based through play with the equipment. No other test is meaningful. I think you should do all your work in the kitchen in the condo (which I did before I got married) and get it done RIGHT. If I bring a club to someone else, as I recently did on a trip in Florida, I give pleasant but specific instructions for specific tasks. Why some people want to argue over bending a lie .5 degrees, I don't know...GOOD LUCK and do not compromise on what you want.

[One Up Golfer]

I wouldnt take it to this guy. My question is by playing tours over the years, didnt you meet anyone else who is good at club work?

 

Yes, there is a guy about 30 miles south of me that has done excellent work for me over the past 18 years but is now in semi-retirement.

 

I was just looking for other opinions of my situation since I seem to have a bit of a OCD and have been this way since I was a kid.

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

 

In that case, do them yourself i guess. I understand your situation, but someone like you will never like what others have to offer you. Many club makers have their "own way" of doing thing, you just need to make an adjustment.

 

 

I guess I was lucky for the last 18 years. Steve did "IMPECCABLE" work and I NEVER had a club assembly fail that HE put together for me.

 

The Cleveland Tech Van guys did a few clubs for me and I had both epoxy failures and head failures. (I don't fault the Van guys for the head failures.)

 

When I get upset about epoxy failures, it's when they fail within 50 hits and I've let the clubs setup for 72 hours before using them. So, I'm not being unreasonable in that area.

 

I've destroyed driver heads all of my life just from hitting balls so that is no big deal either. (I use to crack the Urathane inserts out of my persimmon Action drivers at least 3 times a season.) The stainless head's faces were the worst though, the faces would collapse. With the Titanium heads I seem to bust the internal weights loose some how. (No, I don't hit anything but the golf ball with them. I don't hit anything with them out of anger.)

 

Here's the only picture I have handy of a recent internal weight failure:

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your posts CPCfitter.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

[One Up Golfer]

DVJ,

 

I have followed your posts and thinking for several years. I started doing my own club work 13 years ago because it was the ONLY way I could get what I wanted, when I wanted it, and the way I wanted it. I've learned a lot from other people, research, and experience. I do ALL of my own work, unless I farm out a specific task with specific instructions. I do work for others who have similar standards. All my opinions are experience-based through play with the equipment. No other test is meaningful. I think you should do all your work in the kitchen in the condo (which I did before I got married) and get it done RIGHT. If I bring a club to someone else, as I recently did on a trip in Florida, I give pleasant but specific instructions for specific tasks. Why some people want to argue over bending a lie .5 degrees, I don't know...GOOD LUCK and do not compromise on what you want.

 

Hi azone, you are correct with your advise and I thank you.

 

If you've been following my posts then you might be familiar with my wedge grinds and using a sandblaster & vinegar for my gunmetal finishes. You may also have seen the custom shaft extensions I make using old graphite shafts.

 

Here's a few pics I have handy:

 

 

 

 

 

 

My brother dismantled his machine shop this past june so I no longer have access to it. I usually don't need much more than grip changes most of the time so that's not a problem.

 

Thanks for your post and advice.

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

[Grum]

Pretty cool wedge finish, stainless head?

[JCAG]

Some of the "worst" work I ever saw was done by a fellow that had worked major events for a shaft manufacturer.

His shop was loaded with pics of him and well know golfers. He had many "cards" of thanks for the work he had

done for some major names including many Ryder Cup players.

 

He could "cobble" things together with speed and methods I had never seen before. His entire machinery was a

belt sander, swingweight scale, and a loft/lie machine. He did not believe in frequency, spine alignment,

shaft profiling, bend/flex points, total weight, etc.

 

He had no foggy idea how to nor did he even try to fit people. His method was strictly trial and error.

 

He visited my shop once (as he wanted me to buy him out and hire him). He laughed at my swing analyzer,

launch monitor, putter fitting devices, etc. He said you do not need all that stuff to "build" golf clubs.

 

Needless to say I did not buy him out nor hire him. He closed his shop 3 months later

[One Up Golfer]

Pretty cool wedge finish, stainless head?

 

Yes.

 

I've put a similar finish on chromed carbon steel irons using the sandblaster with very similar results. (No vinegar though, as it will rust the carbon steel if the chrome is blasted too deep.)

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

[One Up Golfer]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1223576106' post='1286627']
Sounds like [color=#ffff00][size=6][b]you'd moan if you got Joe Kwok to do your clubs.[/b][/size][/color]
If you want a job doing well, do it yourself. Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]


Not if he did it to [color=#00ff00][size=6][b]my[/b][/size][/color] specifications!!!

Lulz

Thanks for your response though.


Sincerely,

DVJ

[gunmetal]

Hi guys, I'm an Independant Professional Golfer who has been playing the SMALL Mini-Tours for years. I have helped HUNDREDS of golfers on other sites with their swings.

 

I would like some INPUT about a situation that has arisen with a local club fitter.

 

The guy SUPPOSEDLY has been setting up clubs for TONS of professionals across the country when they stop into my town. He has all kinds of pictures with autographs of the Pros whose clubs he has worked on.

 

He shafted ONE DRIVER for me a couple of years ago and drilled out MOST of the inside of a Matrix Ozik Tp 7x shaft. He drilled 18 inches into it and said that he was still getting EPOXY out of it. I told him that the Matrix shaft has a "NARROW" ID and he was CUTTING MY SHAFT. He told me that I was crazy. He then put my driver together and the epoxy came loose after about 30 hits. He was away on a cruise so I fixed the driver myself.

 

I've known him casually for about 3 years. He has given me shims, ferrules, and checked the swing weight on my clubs for free. I have slipped him a $50 here and there over the years against his protests.

 

Now, I'm at his range the other day trying to fix my Cleveland Hi-Bore XL Tour (Retail head.) with a Brand New Matrix Ozik Tp7x Gloss Black shaft that was made specifically for V. J. Singh. I had to use a different brand of epoxy because they were out of my normal brand where I get it. Well, it came loose. This time I was able to get my regular brand and re-intall the shaft into the head. The problem is that the shaft wound up setting about a 1/4 inch clock-wise from the shaft's spine alignment. I also tipped the shaft a half inch to get it to length since I had butt trimmed it to a 1/2" over my normal length at first so that I could play the club and decide whether to tip it or butt trim it to final length. I also broke off two tangs on my shim so that I could install the shaft so that the face angle was square instead of 3* open. (I also used glass shafting beads.)

 

The club felt light and was just JUNK to hit. I used my back-up driver the last 4 rounds I played. I decided to put some lead tape on the head to see if it would feel & perform better. It worked but was a little TOO heavy. This club fitter came over to me and had me bring the driver into his shop. He questioned me about the club and I told him what I had done with it. He said that I "RUINED" the flex and kick point by tipping it a 1/2 inch. (The matrix website suggests tipping the the shaft a 1/2 for ANY install that is NOT in a bore through.) He clamped the grip into his vise and mounted a 6 inch laser under the sahft and then TWANGED the head. The laser was DEAD STRAIGHT for the first 80% of it's flexing and began to figure 8 just before it stopped. He said that the shaft was WAY out of alignment and that the 1/4 inch clockwise off at setup was NOT enough to cause this. (I thought he was CRAZY because I have spined MANY a shaft and a 1/4" rotation can be a Night & Day difference.)

 

I went on to explain the face angle and all, he said, "Dave, you are WAY TOO TECHNICAL with your clubs". (I was flabberghasted.) I told him that I do not like having lead tape on my club head and would like to fix this. He told me to call him this week and we could "BOTH" work on the driver together.

 

I called him today and he said that that Hot Melt was not an option and that he could just put lead powder down the shaft and cork it to get the proper swing weight. (My back-up driver is a D-4 SW and this one was at D-9 with the lead tape on it.) I questioned him, asking about the weight being HIGHER and CLOSER to the face vs. using hot melt and drilling the hosel out and using a Flex-Tube to put the hot melt LOW and at the back of the head like where the lead tape was. I also told him about how I had manipulated the face angle when installing the shaft. He said that he would "NOT TOUCH THE CLUB" since I was concerned about the face angle. :doh:

 

The lead tape I put on the head got my shot dispersion back where it belonged but the club head speed was too low. I took some of the tape off and was still able to control the shots and got the clubhead speed back up to where it should be.

 

Here's my MAIN question, am I missing something here or is this guy really a "QUACK"? He wants to have me bring in my irons to have them re-gripped and to fit me for everything down to my putter. He only wants $100.00 for this but "I" think that he is full of CRAP. I have done most ALL of my own club work for the last 8 years and only go to a club maker to have my shafts pulled since I live in a Condo and have nowhere to set up a proper work bench.

 

Should I TRUST this guy or is my instinct correct about him even though he has all of these Pros taking pictures with him and he allegedly has worked on their clubs to their satisfaction?

 

Thanks guys, I'm NOT use to asking for advise, I usually give it but that is normally for the golf swing and NOT about club making.

 

Sincerely,

 

DVJ

 

How do you manipulate face angle by removing tangs on a shim?

 

How much lead tape did you put on that made it feel "too heavy"?

 

1/4" difference in spine position is "night and day"? I've always been intrigued by this. How could this be when the shaft is rotating with your hands from the 12 oclock position at address to the 9 oclock position when you begin your transition and then back to the 12 oclock at impact? Certainly the shaft is moving and rotating more than 1/4" and it's actually rotating as you apply force. What's the point of spining the shaft? Use a high end premium shaft and install it with the label up or down (down seems to be the choice of most touring pros) and roll with it.

 

10 grams of lead powder down the shaft won't tangibly effect ball flight. According to Wishon at least. You might be able to feel the difference and the bottom line is if you want Hot Melt there doesn't seem to be a reason why he couldn't deliver what you want. Unless he's under the impression that he's not going to be paid (even though you've offered in the past) and he just wants to do it the easiest way.

 

Keep in mind swingweight is just a number. Sometimes we obsess WAY too much with it. I could get you to your desired swingweight just be changing the grip weight or by back weighting. It's not going to be the same as changing weight in the clubhead. Total weight is just as if not more important than swingweight.

 

Tip trimming it caused you to "ruin" the kickpoint shaft? LOL. That's kinda funny. Trimming it 1/2" will raise it an imperceptible amount (according to Tuttleman, anyhow).

 

Bottom line: You are too technical, lol! AND he should do exactly what you want.

[Ranger Rick]

Take into account most pros will send a thank you card even if he installed R300 soft stepped instead of X100s hard stepped. It's what they do to make sure there is a good perception of them.

[Howard_Jones]

To the OP

Your post is to large to go into details, but when a club maker suggest using tungsten powder in a graphite shaft instead of Hot melt he dont know what his doing. First of all is that Tungsten powder will eat up your shaft from the inside since its impossible to get the cork so deep that you prevent the powder from running up and down. Next is the risk of braking the shaft when adding a cork to the shaft and knock it into place. Tungsten can be used in steel shafts, but its no good to use with Graphite shafts.

I dont know the need for added weight here, but there are tip weights up to 9 grams for graphite on the marked, so if he dont own a hot melt gun there is still options to lead tape. Take the cost of a hot melt gun into the math, and you will see that this man is no professional in the meaning of the word, he is just a "wannabe" without the needed tools and skills for the job.

Spine or FLO lines and tipping can be a nut case on some shafts, since FLO lines might change when tipped or butt cut, but tipping 1/4 would not make the end of the world. Remember that the ball leaves the face at its first attempt, so if the shaft rotate like crazy on its 11 attempt, what does it matter since the ball is long gone and on its way to target when this happen ?
If he stated that the shaft was way out of alignment, how can a club of the rack work at all ?

Ive seen a lot of clubs built by "famous professionals" who is pure junk, so "a card on the wall" is not what you should look for, but certifications in the business and REAL customer feedback in forums like this. I never heard of a customer who was NOT happy about his clubs made by Joe Kwok, so its shops like his you should go to if you want it done right.

[phase3golf]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1351426692' post='5857501']
To the OP

Your post is to large to go into details, but when a club maker suggest using tungsten powder in a graphite shaft instead of Hot melt he dont know what his doing. First of all is that Tungsten powder will eat up your shaft from the inside since its impossible to get the cork so deep that you prevent the powder from running up and down. Next is the risk of braking the shaft when adding a cork to the shaft and knock it into place. Tungsten can be used in steel shafts, but its no good to use with Graphite shafts.

I dont know the need for added weight here, but there are tip weights up to 9 grams for graphite on the marked, so if he dont own a hot melt gun there is still options to lead tape. Take the cost of a hot melt gun into the math, and you will see that this man is no professional in the meaning of the word, he is just a "wannabe" without the needed tools and skills for the job.

Spine or FLO lines and tipping can be a nut case on some shafts, since FLO lines might change when tipped or butt cut, but tipping 1/4 would not make the end of the world. Remember that the ball leaves the face at its first attempt, so if the shaft rotate like crazy on its 11 attempt, what does it matter since the ball is long gone and on its way to target when this happen ?
If he stated that the shaft was way out of alignment, how can a club of the rack work at all ?

Ive seen a lot of clubs built by "famous professionals" who is pure junk, so "a card on the wall" is not what you should look for, but certifications in the business and REAL customer feedback in forums like this. I never heard of a customer who was NOT happy about his clubs made by Joe Kwok, so its shops like his you should go to if you want it done right.
[/quote]

Pretty much spot on there.....

[joey3108]

[quote name='One Up Golfer' timestamp='1351397851' post='5857027']
[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1223576106' post='1286627']
Sounds like [color=#ffff00][size=6][b]you'd moan if you got Joe Kwok to do your clubs.[/b][/size][/color]
If you want a job doing well, do it yourself. Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]


Not if he did it to [color=#00ff00][size=6][b]my[/b][/size][/color] specifications!!!

Lulz

Thanks for your response though.


Sincerely,

DVJ
[/quote]what's in it if I do? And what is my bonus if I can educate you more on top of what you asked?

[joey3108]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1351426692' post='5857501']
To the OP

Your post is to large to go into details, but when a club maker suggest using tungsten powder in a graphite shaft instead of Hot melt he dont know what his doing. First of all is that Tungsten powder will eat up your shaft from the inside since its impossible to get the cork so deep that you prevent the powder from running up and down. Next is the risk of braking the shaft when adding a cork to the shaft and knock it into place. Tungsten can be used in steel shafts, but its no good to use with Graphite shafts.

I dont know the need for added weight here, but there are tip weights up to 9 grams for graphite on the marked, so if he dont own a hot melt gun there is still options to lead tape. Take the cost of a hot melt gun into the math, and you will see that this man is no professional in the meaning of the word, he is just a "wannabe" without the needed tools and skills for the job.

Spine or FLO lines and tipping can be a nut case on some shafts, since FLO lines might change when tipped or butt cut, but tipping 1/4 would not make the end of the world. Remember that the ball leaves the face at its first attempt, so if the shaft rotate like crazy on its 11 attempt, what does it matter since the ball is long gone and on its way to target when this happen ?
If he stated that the shaft was way out of alignment, how can a club of the rack work at all ?

Ive seen a lot of clubs built by "famous professionals" who is pure junk, so "a card on the wall" is not what you should look for, but certifications in the business and REAL customer feedback in forums like this. I never heard of a customer who was NOT happy about his clubs made by Joe Kwok, so its shops like his you should go to if you want it done right.
[/quote]
We could put a long list together and still no point to say there are plenty of bad one out there.

"Most of them won't know anyway"....that's what a bad one always THINK

Joe

[One Up Golfer]

> @joey3108 said:

> One Up Golfer wrote:

>

>

> jaskanski wrote:

>

>

>

> Sounds like you'd moan if you got Joe Kwok to do your clubs.

>

> If you want a job doing well, do it yourself. Just my 2 cents.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Not if he did it to my specifications!!!

>

>

>

> Lulz

>

>

>

> Thanks for your response though.

>

>

>

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> DVJ

>

>

>

>

> what's in it if I do? And what is my bonus if I can educate you more on top of what you asked?

 

Haha, 1st....Thank You for answering 4 years after my OP. I just did the work myself. 2nd, what's in it for you to educate me MORE on top of what I asked??? Hmm....this is a Golf Forum....I have given Tens of THOUSANDS of posts (Back when Bombsquad was Alive and Bighitter had it.) that have helped many frustrated golfers to enjoy the game more. What my "Bonus" was for sharing helpful information was knowing that I helped other Golfers get through a rough patch so they could enjoy the Game I have loved for 7/8 of my life. What YOUR Bonus would be for passing along helpful information I have no clue.

So, my apologies for answering your post 7 Years Late. But, tit for tat I guess. ROFL