Ulnar deviation of wrists at setup is a major determinant of swing plane.

[asterisk]

How did you determine that 2.5 knuckles is the standard for a neutral grip? Maybe it's 2 knuckles or 2.25 or 1.75 or 3.0!

[SunkTheBirdie]

How did you determine that 2.5 knuckles is the standard for a neutral grip?

I'm not sure there is a standard.

:) 2.5 knuckles is just a description of my grip.

[asterisk]

I think your grip is stronger and weaker than neutral..lol!

[Ghost of Snead]

How did you determine that 2.5 knuckles is the standard for a neutral grip? Maybe it's 2 knuckles or 2.25 or 1.75 or 3.0!

 

It's called making it up as you go ...

[asterisk]

How did you determine that 2.5 knuckles is the standard for a neutral grip?

I'm not sure there is a standard.

:) 2.5 knuckles is just a description of my grip.

 

Well you did say it's neutral... so...

[asterisk]

How did you determine that 2.5 knuckles is the standard for a neutral grip? Maybe it's 2 knuckles or 2.25 or 1.75 or 3.0!

 

It's called making it up as you go ...

 

 

 

Lot's of that going around these days...it's almost like a plaque.

[SunkTheBirdie]

 

That would be a fairly accurate depiction of my grip.

Actually if the above is 2.5, my left hand is a 3.

[asterisk]

All depends how you look at it!!

[harolease]

I use arched wrist ..I guess that would ulner Dev ...when I putt and chip sometimes but I find there is too much tension in my hands so I have to grip my top hand thumb around the handle rather than directly in the front

[starsail85]

This is an interesting thread , wish some people would chime in with their own photos

 

I will try and post some swings with the two positions. Very interesting topic for me as I have long arms relative to height and my hands look low at address . Makes me wonder what my swing would look like if I was taller or my clubs were shorter and it's effects on the wrist positions

 

Never noticed the thing about tension seeping into right tricep I love the idea , it's always extensor action that is mentioned for this

 

Great thread, the forum needs more stuff like this ?

[zoots]

I set up with ulnar deviation(uncocked wrists) because I like to hover the club a bit at address. It helps me feel the weight of the clubhead

and sets the weight nicely under the heel pad of the lead hand.

 

Your height I feel is irrelevant,as you will just be standing a wee bit taller at address.

 

Never gave any thought on how it affects swing plane, I don't think it does,as I have played around with both a flatter and more upright plane.

 

Since the wrists go from a cocked position at the top to uncocked thru the ball, seems easier to me to just set up that way.

[David C]

Hogan is a textbook example of ulnar deviation at address and he's as flat as there is. Not sure there's a strong correlation.

He was short.

You can only be as upright as your height and club length allows. :)

 

 

 

Interesting.

 

 

Unrelated to his height by itself in the respect that he appears to me to have long arms. His forearms are more bent and he 'reaches' towards the ball meaning to sole the club properly he has to arch his wrists. Or use an even flatter lie angle. Compare him to the guy in the photo directly above your post whose arms are straighter down, and therefore wouldn't need to in order to sole that particular club he is using properly.

 

It's less height related by itself than proportion related IMO. Hogan appears to have a short torso, if his arms hung more vertically he may have been too close to the ball at address for the influence it would subsequently have on his swing. He might also have wanted the feel from creating more space at address, may have been more comfortable for him (arms might naturally hang that way, or been injured) or some other reason for the influence his arm hang would have on his subsequent swing, impact and ball flight.

 

If Hogan's arms hung vertically at the forearms, or overall *effectively hung more vertically* at address (the guy above doesn't have perfectly straight arms, chicken before egg he might be standing closer, firstly) he'd have the same look. And would also be standing closer to it. Like McCord in the video where he is telling everyone present about what he has been learning from Mac O'Grady keeping the arms at a '45' (more like 140) degree, that appearance.

 

And in the McCord video the context is the arm hang is inter-related to all the other numbers he talks about. I think that is the takeaway - it all has to fit together: tools you are using, body proportions... Can't just pin your hat on changing one thing for one benefit. May or may not have several negative effects.

[Fade]

Bottom Line:

 

Add some ulnar deviation (of your wrist) at setup for a more upright swing plane.

Add some radial deviation at setup for a flatter swing plane.

 

What is the setup sequence you have in mind here?

 

Grip then deviate?

 

OR

 

Deviate then grip?

[Tanner25]

Bottom Line:

 

Add some ulnar deviation (of your wrist) at setup for a more upright swing plane.

Add some radial deviation at setup for a flatter swing plane.

 

-----------

 

What is ulnar deviation ?

 

Try casting a fishing rod with just your wrist (no arm)

- Pulling the rod back is radial deviation.

- Casting the rod is ulnar deviation.

(or you can think of a hammer).

 

Visually,

 

When you are looking down at your forearms while gripping a club.... one way to think of the forearm muscles is that the muscles on the top of your forearms are the radial muscles and the muscles underneath are the ulnar muscles.

 

Adding some ulnar deviation at setup activates the "ulnar" muscles (and relaxes the radial muscles). The distribution of forearm muscle activation has very powerful impacts on your elbow (ie. the angle between your upper arm and forearm). Ulnar deviation at the wrist (mostly of the right wrist) helps keep the right elbow straight in the golf swing by activating the ulnar muscles and this POWERFULLY promotes a more upright swing plane.

 

Have you ever heard of the idea that you want to keep your right elbow straighter longer in the backswing to prevent the club from getting sucked too inside ?

 

Well, this grip setup tweak all but guarantees you keeping your right elbow straighter longer.

 

Please try it and let me know what you think !

 

Enjoy,

SunkTheBirdie.

 

STB - Good stuff. Which way is better if you lift the clubs with your arms, instead of staying wide in the BS? Tanner

[Nard_S]

I do it not so much for plane or swing arc but because my hands just work together better with it. It's a function on how I grip the club,

 

The picture of Hogan most resembles my set up.

 

The guy with really high hands is not one that should be emulated. That will change a lot of things in the swing and not for the better.

[PowderedToastMan]

 

That would be a fairly accurate depiction of my grip.

Actually if the above is 2.5, my left hand is a 3.

Not sure where you retrieved this image, but that left hand grip is strong, not neutral.

[SunkTheBirdie]

STB - Good stuff. Which way is better if you lift the clubs with your arms, instead of staying wide in the BS? Tanner

I think that is an easy one. The more ulnar deviation at setup -> keep right elbow straighter longer, = more width. As TB07, or iteach have said many times, folding the right elbow is a width killer :)

 

What is the setup sequence you have in mind here?

 

Grip then deviate?

OR

Deviate then grip?

 

Great question. I've been trying to think about that but I haven't gotten around to it. Instead of hashing out the details I wanted to get the concept out there first.

 

Try both.

 

I suspect, Grip then deviate is easier and that Deviate then grip would give you more actual change (more ulnar deviation).

Other big factors I am considering are:

- this idea seems most effective (to me, so far) for a weaker grip on the club.

- it is harder to "grip a club with more ulnar deviation" when your grip is stronger !

- as well, a stronger grip seems to mimic this effect anyway.

 

I will say this .... checking the Vs in your grip, by looking at your grip via this procedure ..

Is the best way to max out radial deviation !

Do not grip your club with type of routine ! (ie. dont hold the club to the sky with your arms in front of you like this.)

 

For me, the best way to achieve MORE ulnar deviation is.

 

(1) ground the club behind the ball with your left arm only, and the left arm "hanging" straight up and down. The club should be rested in the 4 fingers of your hand, thumb not on the club.

(2) try adding a bit of ulnar deviation of your left hand at this time ... before you settle into your grip.

(3) grip with your left and then add your right hand.

(4) complete your stance.

 

lots of ulnar devation ... it is harder to see your thumbs. When you grip it like the above pictures, you can see your entire thumb.

 

 

That would be a fairly accurate depiction of my grip.

Actually if the above is 2.5, my left hand is a 3.

Not sure where you retrieved this image, but that left hand grip is strong, not neutral.

Agreed.

I also think my grip is considerably weaker than I thought.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Update - February 24, 2017

 

- this idea seems most effective (to me, so far) for a golfer with a weaker grip on the club.

- it is harder to "grip a club with more ulnar deviation" when your grip is stronger ?

- as well, a stronger grip seems to mimic this effect anyway ? (maybe)

 

I also think that part of the reason why ulnar deviation at setup encourages a more upright plane is that when I try to add ulnar deviation to my right hand .... my right elbow gets a wee bit straighter ! No wonder it keeps my right elbow straighter longer !

 

To feel this effect try this procedure.

 

- no club.

- take a good golf stance, hands and arms are hanging straight down (palms together) - Take a few 10 to 2 movements back and forth and feel it.

- now setup as you did before, but this time maximally c0ck your wrists (radial deviation)... now Take a few 10 to 2 movements back and forth and feel it.

Q: did you feel your right shoulder turning too flat ?

Q: did you feel your right elbow get crazy deep crazy quick ?

Now you know the effect !

[Scotch67]

For last month, I have toyed w single plane swing and purposely used ulnar deviation at setup and takeaway. My normal is wrists neutral and relaxed w arms hanging down. I loved the variation so much I will flip bw both throughout my round. Impact feels cleaner, especially with pitching using UD, and more consistent results. I then started researching and landed on this thread. I think this topic is very interesting to me personally as I experienced a whole new way of striking the ball that has added to my enjoyment of the game. UD with arms extended gives me high straight ball flight; whereas, neutral wrists w arms hanging down at address let's me fade and draw more freely. I love both options. It's not an either/or or right/wrong for me. I am playing well w both and the new setup just gives me another way to play the game. It is still a fun game for me after 34 years of playing. Thanks for sharing and all the comments!

[Scottie68]

Not to further complicate things, but have been playing with this quite a bit lately, and have found that grip placement across left hand (in fingers, under heel pad, under thumb pad) is also a variable to consider. I learned that the term "snuffbox" was relevant, not a term used to insult someone!

[Tanner25]

Not to further complicate things, but have been playing with this quite a bit lately, and have found that grip placement across left hand (in fingers, under heel pad, under thumb pad) is also a variable to consider. I learned that the term "snuffbox" was relevant, not a term used to insult someone!

 

Hey where did sunk go? His posts were entertaining and included pictures :derisive:

[DLev45]

Reviving this thread due to one of those eureka range moments all of us have from time to time.

 

I have always struggled with an inside takeaway, thin toe-hits that go low and right as a miss, (especially the longer the club gets), and never taking much of a divot at all beyond my 54 degree wedge . I play with a strong grip and never realized that I some wrist cock at address.

 

I don't know what possessed me, but after struggling through 3/4ths of a range bucket with the same issues, I decided to uncock and hinge my wrists downwards at address. Didn't even know what radial and ulnar deviation was. But boy did it make a difference. The set-up felt a bit awkward, but the takeaway, backswing, transition, and downswing felt much different that I am used to, in a good way.

 

I started finding center-face contact from my 54 all the way down through my 3-hybrid with little curvature and high ball flight. It was probably the best series of 20 consecutive shots I have hit in the 3.5 years I have been playing. The only bad part about it was that I ran out of balls and daylight.

 

I didn't get to hit driver, but I did take some swings on air with the same move. It felt a little more awkward than the other clubs with the driver being so long, I felt like I was having to reach out a good bit with a more horizontal swing that usual. But that doesn't mean it was bad because I didn't get to hit a ball to see what it does.

[Jbarretta]

On 2/22/2017 at 2:20 PM, iteachgolf said:

Not many people are ulnar deviated (uncocked) at setup. And being uncocked at setup and in the takeaway will encourage a more narrow arm swing in the backswing. If wrist are uncocked in the takeaway the golfer will over fold he trail arm in order to get club working up. Having wrist cocked early would make it easier to keep arms wilder in the backswing.

 

I feel ulnar at setup allows me trace the clubhead on the takeaway and backswing on a much wider arc and then makes it easier to change direction and float load and get narrow on the downswing.  Ball flight and release are much better.  Basically what Martin chuck teaches