Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[doublenuts]

Sad commentary only cementing that golf is losing.
[url="http://news.yahoo.com/video/500-dicks-sporting-goods-drops-152749757.html"]http://news.yahoo.co...-152749757.html[/url]

Golf is headed back to pre-TW numbers.

Stunning commentary is that -according to the talking heads in the video- people are quitting to do CHORES?? Housework?
I get a list from SWMBO but I ain't volunteering for chores or housework. I'll work my way around that list, but not to the point where
I'm gonna feel I need to quit golf or any other activity. I'd rather waste 4-6 hours at golf than be on my knees, for three hours, pulling weeds.

[joey2aces]

[quote name='doublenuts' timestamp='1406239446' post='9778557']
Sad commentary only cementing that golf is losing.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/500-dicks-sporting-goods-drops-152749757.html

Golf is headed back to pre-TW numbers.

Stunning commentary is that -according to the talking heads in the video- people are quitting to do CHORES?? Housework?
I get a list from SWMBO but I ain't volunteering for chores or housework. I'll work my way around that list but not to the point where
I'm gonna feel I need to quit golf or any other activity. I'd rather waste 4-6 hours at golf than be on my knees, for three hours, pulling weeds.
[/quote]

Sounds like a copout to me. Personally I think the people who got in "because if a Tiger" are already out. The bulk of them it's more of an economic thing but people are more prone to make excuses than tell people they're too poor to play. My list of honey-do's is a mile long and so far I've played more rounds this year than the start of any year in recent memory. I'm in the process of re-doing a basement, bathroom and just got done with a kitchen and adding a second floor to my house. Yes, a contractor did the bulk of the work but I did the finishing work...paint, 2 walk in closets window trim etc.
if the wife is actually making people quit the game for chores, you're with the wrong woman.

[Pepperturbo]

Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment. And to those that still wallow in thinking the game of golf, in general, is bigoted, take off the blinders. Sure there are some people and organizations that have distorted minds, even limit entry, but they are no longer the majority, and that's all we should be concerned with. Having everyone exactly the same, or behaving the same and or following PC rules, is NOT in any country or golf's best interest.

Additionally, too many ignorant people like hearing themselves talk about subjects, yet they lack subject matter acumen. Just because a market segment downsizes, does not directly lead to dying; its adjusting, as it should. Golf has been around for how many years? Its not all that different from what America's housing market just experienced. The largest number of personal bankruptcy's in history, due to housing costs. Why, because too many people owned homes they really couldn't afford, in other words, they speculated on making big money over the long term till the economy went in the toilet, in conjunction with the job market crashing; hell its still muddling along. The benefit, mortgage institutions are demanding sound proof of income.

I don't have the time to go into details regarding remarks like: its "too hard", "too expensive", "takes too long", or that women don't feel welcome. I will just say, a certain mindset that struggles with "hard", also tends not to like what isn't like him, so 'he/she' makes mountains out of mole hills, in hopes of making others feel as bad or insecure as they feel. As for the women don't feel welcome comment, he's full of it. My wife has been a golfer for over twenty years. For most of that time, we have traveled all over, playing golf; she's never been shunned. Also, at our last two clubs, there were a number of single women members. My 2cents.

[duffer987]

^Oh Pepper we've missed you!!!!!!!!

[Yellow Jacket]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406243012' post='9778807']
Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment.
[/quote]
The NYT article is quoting participation figures from the National Golf Foundation. But since you bring it up, if the New York Times isn't a reliable source, what is?

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406245066' post='9778945']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406243012' post='9778807']
Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment.
[/quote]
The NYT article is quoting participation figures from the National Golf Foundation. But since you bring it up, if the New York Times isn't a reliable source, what is?
[/quote]

First, the NGF is a foundation made up of people, companies, facilities and associations that earn their living in the golf business; those same members support NGF. Reason I started to wonder about Jack Nicklaus, when he pushes for golf to change to accommodate people that are not really enthusiasts, and Dottie Pepper, who's P.G.A. task force, saying women are not received well...baloney. Something tells me she's so far out of touch with the average women, she's remembering back when women hardly played the game. I read all that to mean, they have a revenue agenda, so its possible their research and banter gets bent to accommodate their mission; not unlike most research projects though. Yes, all are sources, but not one can't be questioned.

As for your question regarding what a reliable source is. Though my sources have no bearing here, after forty years of N.A. business leadership experience, long time back I came to the conclusion, there is no ONE reliable source for info. Reason its so important in today's economic environment, to be informed in a variety of areas, otherwise success is fleeting.

[patrick421]

Bravo Pepper, I agree with everything you have said in your last two posts. This topic is mind numbing. Nothing more to add, just thought I'd point out this whimsical occurrence.

[ocburg17]

[quote name='studatnu' timestamp='1406074364' post='9762401']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1401309233' post='9384111']
[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1401279061' post='9380635']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1401245794' post='9379145']
Golf is very robust in Massachusetts. It contributes quite a bit of loot to the economy, not to mention providing quite a few jobs. This from a recent article in the Massachusetts Golf Association magazine.
[/quote]

That seems like asking a realtor if a house is a good investment. But it could be true.
[/quote]

An independent group was hired to make an assessment.
[/quote]

from MA. and theres no issue here with golf
[/quote]

A coworker who golfed in college worked in MA for a few years. Just moved back to Wisconsin and is playing in the same league as I am. Holds a 0 index in our 9 hole fun league. Didnt play the last few years in MA because of price.

Dont talk to people who golf. Talk to people who dont. Simply it is cost. My dad doesnt golf any more because of cost. He use to build clubs in the 80s and go south for week long golf trips. My best friend from high school wont golf because of cost. He has plenty of money.

I dont get all these very intelligent people over think why golf is struggling.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406245066' post='9778945']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406243012' post='9778807']
Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment.
[/quote]
The NYT article is quoting participation figures from the National Golf Foundation. But since you bring it up, if the New York Times isn't a reliable source, what is?
[/quote]

The NY Times stories have to be met with reasonable
skepticism. Often times they are agenda driven in their
choice of what they choose to report and not report.

Also, the reporters covering the story often write in
such a way to guide readers to an opinion they hold
rather than just report the facts.

[Yellow Jacket]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1406250065' post='9779489']
[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406245066' post='9778945']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406243012' post='9778807']
Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment.
[/quote]
The NYT article is quoting participation figures from the National Golf Foundation. But since you bring it up, if the New York Times isn't a reliable source, what is?
[/quote]

The NY Times stories have to be met with reasonable
skepticism. Often times they are agenda driven in their
choice of what they choose to report and not report.

Also, the reporters covering the story often write in
such a way to guide readers to an opinion they hold
rather than just report the facts.
[/quote]
Again, if the NY Times is so biased, as you are asserting, what would be an unbiased source of news?

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406253384' post='9779829']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1406250065' post='9779489']
[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406245066' post='9778945']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406243012' post='9778807']
Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment.
[/quote]
The NYT article is quoting participation figures from the National Golf Foundation. But since you bring it up, if the New York Times isn't a reliable source, what is?
[/quote]

The NY Times stories have to be met with reasonable
skepticism. Often times they are agenda driven in their
choice of what they choose to report and not report.

Also, the reporters covering the story often write in
such a way to guide readers to an opinion they hold
rather than just report the facts.
[/quote]
Again, if the NY Times is so biased, as you are asserting, what would be an unbiased source of news?
[/quote]

That is something you determine for yourself. You compare
different sources to see how they portray news, whether
they are editorializing or just reporting facts, and so on.

They are many sources for news today. They are literally
at your finger tips. I'm not going to steer you toward any
particular news outlet. All I would say is find sources who
you feel give it to you straight up and don't try to influence
your thinking on the matter at hand.

Like everything in the virtual world these days it's buyer,
or consumer, beware.

[braincramp52]

Most of the people that I know that have quit playing golf did so because the game is hard. It's not much fun to play something you suck at. That and the fact that people are busier trying to make a living doesn't help with free time and money.

[billyhandsomeface]

Here is a real solution: Get marshals who actually do their job. Most of the ones I have seen just drive around the course and wave. When you complain to them they say they will handle it and don't, or just apologize repeatedly. The marshals are going to have to p&#* four people off in order to keep the 60 behind them happy.

[zstar77]

In reference to the title i say good.and why should we care anyway?

[mesquite2]

[quote name='billyhandsomeface' timestamp='1406289631' post='9781691']
Here is a real solution: Get marshals who actually do their job. Most of the ones I have seen just drive around the course and wave. When you complain to them they say they will handle it and don't, or just apologize repeatedly. The marshals are going to have to p&#* four people off in order to keep the 60 behind them happy.
[/quote] Again, if a marshall is not allowed to move groups or remove them from the course, what do you expect them to do? When a slow group is asked once or twice to pick up their pace & they don't do it, what recourse does the marshall have? Golfers that are being held up by a slow group should be pissed at the slow group, not the marshalls, who have no real power behind them & yes, some marshalls probably just ride around the course not doing much, maybe because they know they are just wasting their breath. Slow golfers are to blame, not marshalls.

[zer0]

[quote name='triplebogeyblues' timestamp='1406120242' post='9765935']
Little surprised there hasn't been mention of the story on Real Sports last night. The number of golf courses closing is a pretty alarming number.
[/quote]


Great program, really found the president of Taylor Made to have some fascinating ideas. At first I laughed at his idea of having huge holes, but the more I thought about it the more I liked the idea. Imagine how much more fun the game would be if you actually had a chance of holing out from the fairway more than just once in a blue moon? I don't think it would be as fun when putting, at some point the hole is just too big for most putts. Ideally, I would love to see a retractable hole where it was big while you were off the green, but once you get on the green you press a button and the hole contracts to a smaller, more traditional size. Hey, if they can have a floating remote controlled AC cloud in Quatar, why not a retractable golf hole?

I've been playing golf for over 30 years and in that time I have exactly one hole in one and one hole out from outside of 100 yards. Talk about a drastic lack of gratification vs amount of time and effort playing a game? Seems very disproportionate to other sports in that regard.

[BillyZ2]

It doesn't matter to me if golf popularity is waning some, let it be what it is. I will still play the game, and probably be happier not seeing all the people who play the game due to it being a fad. Much of the time slow play dominates the time consumed, and maybe the pace will improve with type of golfer who is more of a 'purist', for lack of a better word.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406253384' post='9779829']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1406250065' post='9779489']
[quote name='Yellow Jacket' timestamp='1406245066' post='9778945']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1406243012' post='9778807']
Honestly, the NY Times??? Its about the worst reference source imaginable, especially when it comes to economic reality, honesty and good judgment.
[/quote]
The NYT article is quoting participation figures from the National Golf Foundation. But since you bring it up, if the New York Times isn't a reliable source, what is?
[/quote]

The NY Times stories have to be met with reasonable
skepticism. Often times they are agenda driven in their
choice of what they choose to report and not report.

Also, the reporters covering the story often write in
such a way to guide readers to an opinion they hold
rather than just report the facts.
[/quote]
Again, if the NY Times is so biased, as you are asserting, what would be an unbiased source of news?
[/quote]

As I said, there is NO source without bias, no perfect human. There was a period when we viewers/readers could trust part of being a professional meant honest, unbiased reporting; that is no longer the case as well as sad. Worse, there are so many people claiming to be reporters and experts today, thanks to the internet, professional quality is pathetic.

"We", you and I, etc., must insure our own bias doesn't dirty down what we watch or read. "WE" can no longer trust anything other than our own comprehension, critical reasoning, life and educational experiences as well as success and due diligence.

[Nspiel58]

If golf interest is dying then it's a direct reflection of the U.S. economy dying as well. How is it possible to maintain infrastructure if the debt is not serviceable. The debt ceiling continues to rise, to where? I'm sure people have quit golfing because they're dead, are close to death, can't afford the cost, the time, or have other interests. But for the general population, there's less money to spend and if it's a choice, I think a lot of people want to have the ability to entertain themselves at home or have the ability to access information with their families, as opposed to going out with other people to golf. So money goes to internet, satellite, cable, netflicks, phone, whatever. A real solution to getting more people out on the course would be to end the Federal Reserve and create a debt-free currency.

[BillyZ2]

$18,000,000,000.000 and rising, it really should be criminal to let it get that high.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406313268' post='9784813']
$18,000,000,000.000 and rising, it really should be criminal to let it get that high.
[/quote]

The government does things it would arrest private citizens
and business for doing. I was gonna say more but I'll just
leave it at that.

[BillyZ2]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1406314711' post='9785027']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406313268' post='9784813']
$18,000,000,000.000 and rising, it really should be criminal to let it get that high.
[/quote]

The government does things it would arrest private citizens
and business for doing. I was gonna say more but I'll just
leave it at that.
[/quote]Isn't that the sad truth. Just like the IRS having hard drives crash, coincidentally the same hard drives that were under scrutiny, Then they destroyed them! But there wasn't any wrong doing there. Can you imagine if you or me did this?

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406314879' post='9785069']
[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1406314711' post='9785027']
[quote name='Tom Gski' timestamp='1406313268' post='9784813']
$18,000,000,000.000 and rising, it really should be criminal to let it get that high.
[/quote]

The government does things it would arrest private citizens
and business for doing. I was gonna say more but I'll just
leave it at that.
[/quote]Isn't that the sad truth. Just like the IRS having hard drives crash, coincidentally the same hard drives that were under scrutiny, Then they destroyed them! But there wasn't any wrong doing there. Can you imagine if you or me did this?
[/quote]

I'm sure they wouldn't look too kindly on us destroying
evidence. Sad, and with a corrupt AG helping with all
the coverups.

[yellowlab]

[quote name='Nspiel58' timestamp='1406312114' post='9784657']
If golf interest is dying then it's a direct reflection of the U.S. economy dying as well. How is it possible to maintain infrastructure if the debt is not serviceable. The debt ceiling continues to rise, to where? I'm sure people have quit golfing because they're dead, are close to death, can't afford the cost, the time, or have other interests. But for the general population, there's less money to spend and if it's a choice, I think a lot of people want to have the ability to entertain themselves at home or have the ability to access information with their families, as opposed to going out with other people to golf. So money goes to internet, satellite, cable, netflicks, phone, whatever. A real solution to getting more people out on the course would be to end the Federal Reserve and create a debt-free currency.
[/quote]

Agree 100%.

I've been playing golf since I was 7 years old. Back when I was a kid there were 4 courses in the town I grew up in, two of which were private courses and one at the military base on the west side of town, so there wasn't lot of opportunity for the average person to play golf. Back then the people who played the game were golfers (bear with me, there's a difference between those who play golf and those who are golfers). But in the early 90's we started to see an explosion of golf course development, especially in the southern US, due in part to an economy that had been steadily growing since the early 80's. Shortly thereafter guys like Tiger and Phil became household names and golf all of the sudden became mainstream. Once it became "cool" to play golf, every hack that could afford a set of clubs decided to play. I know guys who had never played a single round of golf or watched one minute of a golf tournament who took up the game because it was what everybody else was doing. It was cool to be a golfer. Demand for golf and golf equipment enjoyed a steady increase until the economy tanked. Now were seeing a decline in not only the golf industry, but in interest of the game. And it's due, at least in part, to a really bad economy where people don't have the disposal income they used to. And 99% of those guys I know who picked up the game because it was cool don't play anymore.

Golf will never die. True golfers like myself will continue to play this great game as long as the good Lord will allow me to. I for one am not surprised at what's happening to the industry. Honestly I think it's a long needed correction that was inevitable because of the explosion of growth the game experienced.

[greerstyl]

Hey golf! GET ONLINE GET DIGITAL!! damn I'm at home right now and would love to make a tee time tomorrow and I know it's impossible, oh and hey people behaving the desks at country clubs BE COOL Your old and hate every youngin that comes through the door, and if your course is in crappy shape, lower your prices, stop putting leagues out at the exact time I can play, and instead of tee it forward, throw the black tees and possibly the blue away on the weekends,

In order to appeal to the younger crowds of today like myself, you'll need to remove the old thought processes,

Just a rant, I know not every situation is the same, and I know I should just join a private, lol

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='greerstyl' timestamp='1406333599' post='9786985']
Hey golf! GET ONLINE GET DIGITAL!! damn I[b]'m at home right now and would love to make a tee time tomorrow and I know it's impossible,[/b] oh and hey people behaving the desks at country clubs BE COOL Your old and hate every youngin that comes through the door, and if your course is in crappy shape, lower your prices, stop putting leagues out at the exact time I can play, and instead of tee it forward, throw the black tees and possibly the blue away on the weekends,

In order to appeal to the younger crowds of today like myself, you'll need to remove the old thought processes,
[/quote]

Do you actually mean this?

[greerstyl]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1406333975' post='9787027']
[quote name='greerstyl' timestamp='1406333599' post='9786985']
Hey golf! GET ONLINE GET DIGITAL!! damn I[b]'m at home right now and would love to make a tee time tomorrow and I know it's impossible,[/b] oh and hey people behaving the desks at country clubs BE COOL Your old and hate every youngin that comes through the door, and if your course is in crappy shape, lower your prices, stop putting leagues out at the exact time I can play, and instead of tee it forward, throw the black tees and possibly the blue away on the weekends,

In order to appeal to the younger crowds of today like myself, you'll need to remove the old thought processes,
[/quote]

Do you actually mean this?
[/quote]

No.... Well yes to some things. I think the golf world needs to move to digital and embrace technology, there are 3 courses near me that use the golfnow app and I tend to play them a lot. As for the Course desk personnel it's hit or miss, but the days where companies like Apple Nadine Starbucks are using great experience to sell products, this new generation is getting used to the customer service. There a couple of courses I avoid because they are just a terrible experience, no one says hi, short answers, etc,. I do believe that if your course is in bad shape the price should dictate it, one near me still has barren greens, understand the winter killed them, but adjust accordingly. And lastly I don't mind the leagues, I just know not to play then.

I do like the idea of taking tee it forward to a new level, and shorten the course on Saturdays and Sundays, sales wise you would get more groups in and faster play.

That's it, rant over, just a few bad experiences

[GwrxMod]

Thread cleaned.

Political discussions are against forum rules. Please keep this in mind when posting.

Thanks.

[Rhythm&TempoRenzo]

I think a lot of people leave the game for a number of reasons. Here's a few from my perspective:

"Golf has become too expensive" - The average person cannot afford to purchase decent equipment & get out to play with it on a regular basis. Lowering the prices of both equipment and green fees would be a great place to start. Not too many of the folks I know can afford to play more than once a month.

"Instructors should cut through the bull" - Swing coaches should stop creating carbon copies of themselves and start working with each student to develop a swing that works within their physical limitations (A swing doesn't have to be picture perfect). Doing this will reward students with rapid improvement instead of frustration, which is what we all want. This way instead of steering the student to the next lesson, they will steer themselves. Put it all together and possibly for the first time in history, we'll see a significant drop in the average handicap.

Finally,

"The Rules of Golf" - The rules book need to be updated, perusing through five sections to make one decision is ridiculous. Simplification is absolutely necessary in today's times. Can we pick up the pace on the broadcast? I love the game with all my heart, but sometimes watching grass grow or paint drying can be more exciting. I mean even bowling stepped up and modernized its broadcast - c'mon man... Well, that's my two cents

[maverick]

Golf clubs are way too expensive and lose too much value instantly when bought. The resale value goes down to almost nothing. I saw TaylorMade's CEO in TV talking about the huge holes making the game 'fun'. Our "instant gratification generation" thinks it is too hard. Too bad. If the game is radically changed then it is not golf anymore. The equipment prices needs to be lowered and the gimmicks like sliders, removable weights, racing strips, LEDs, etc. and so forth need to go away. Golf is turning into a circus.

I also believe our economy is too blame. The lower 1% are making less and less every year. Since 2006 the price of milk has risen 17% while the minimum wage has stayed the same.