Stack and Tilt

[Ironmaster Oddities]

As you can tell from my posts, I am a golf purist at heart. So this is almost heresy. But, in an effort to resurrect a golf game, I have begun to implement the

Stack and Tilt swing method. God forbid

For the past few years, since my foot injuries, my game has been in a downward spiral. the worse I played the less i even wanted to tee it up. My index coubled during the time. So a loss of interest in playing, resulted. I didn't care if I ever played....ever.

 

Well I guess I did care, because I kept trying to get back a swing, which proved futile trying to utilize what I had done in the past. At the practice facility a couple weeks ago, A friend and I were hitting balls. He saw and heard my frustration. I could not keep the bottom of my arc in the same place. My margin for error was not an inch, which would be bad enough. But I could hit 6 or 7 inches behind the ball...or skull and top it. Hitting a good golf shot was purely a random event. It had been this way, off and on, for over 7 years. I have been on the verge of quitting altogether. a Swing on 2 axes just would no longer work for me. So this guy says "you know, Bob, you might want to at least try Stack and Tilt." Immediately I started to wonder when the demons and aliens were going to materialize. But I needed a fix like a dead man needs a coffin. So I said "tell me about it". Just the rudiments of it. Keep weight on left foot. Tilt left shoulder down on back swing and increase weight on left foot as I swing back. increase it more on forward swing....

 

After a couple of flinches and scrapes, I started to hit some OK shots. So I worked at it and then went on the WRX site plus a couple others to find out a little more about it, trying to get a way to get the bottom of my swing to be in the same place when I swung the club. Keep arms straight and straighten out the right leg on the back swing (heresy). hands go back closer to the body (what about the snap hook?) Lo and behold, I started hitting more good shots. At least more adequate shots. and some very good ones. Fewer times laying the sod over the ball. So I am hopeful. It has proven to be more difficult with the longer clubs, especially the driver, because it creates a steep approach to the ball. so I am working on that with some positive results.

Now I am working on striking the ball a couple of inches before the bottom of my swing. But this is my first glimmer of hope of regaining a golf game in a very long time.

 

Now the big question is, "Why has Stack and Tilt become a Pariah among the teaching circles?" It is maligned like Leprosy or an STD. Why?

[dday39]

it hasn't, there are a bunch of similar methods born of the same tree (MORAD, TGM, etc) that have been around for a long time

I'll caution you to at least buy the book. Too many people grasp onto a few pieces which help them to hit some better shots with irons. These are usually the same people who are often too steep and cannot hit the longer clubs.

its in your best interest to purchase one of the following if you are going to travel down this road:
stack and tilt dvd's
stack and tilt book
lessons from a certified S&T instructor

[mocokid]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1405108033' post='9682329']
As you can tell from my posts, I am a golf purist at heart. So this is almost heresy. But, in an effort to resurrect a golf game, I have begun to implement the
Stack and Tilt swing method. God forbid
For the past few years, since my foot injuries, my game has been in a downward spiral. the worse I played the less i even wanted to tee it up. My index coubled during the time. So a loss of interest in playing, resulted. I didn't care if I ever played....ever.

Well I guess I did care, because I kept trying to get back a swing, which proved futile trying to utilize what I had done in the past. At the practice facility a couple weeks ago, A friend and I were hitting balls. He saw and heard my frustration. I could not keep the bottom of my arc in the same place. My margin for error was not an inch, which would be bad enough. But I could hit 6 or 7 inches behind the ball...or skull and top it. Hitting a good golf shot was purely a random event. It had been this way, off and on, for over 7 years. I have been on the verge of quitting altogether. a Swing on 2 axes just would no longer work for me. So this guy says "you know, Bob, you might want to at least try Stack and Tilt." Immediately I started to wonder when the demons and aliens were going to materialize. But I needed a fix like a dead man needs a coffin. So I said "tell me about it". Just the rudiments of it. Keep weight on left foot. Tilt left shoulder down on back swing and increase weight on left foot as I swing back. increase it more on forward swing....

After a couple of flinches and scrapes, I started to hit some OK shots. So I worked at it and then went on the WRX site plus a couple others to find out a little more about it, trying to get a way to get the bottom of my swing to be in the same place when I swung the club. Keep arms straight and straighten out the right leg on the back swing (heresy). hands go back closer to the body (what about the snap hook?) Lo and behold, I started hitting more good shots. At least more adequate shots. and some very good ones. Fewer times laying the sod over the ball. So I am hopeful. It has proven to be more difficult with the longer clubs, especially the driver, because it creates a steep approach to the ball. so I am working on that with some positive results.
Now I am working on striking the ball a couple of inches before the bottom of my swing. But this is my first glimmer of hope of regaining a golf game in a very long time.

Now the big question is, "Why has Stack and Tilt become a Pariah among the teaching circles?" It is maligned like Leprosy or an STD. Why?
[/quote]

.

How far are you from Texarkana Ark? Go see Geoff Jones, it will be [b]EYE OPENING[/b]. I saw him in NY last month and I'm sold. There is a PDF available on the 9 to 3 drill thread in instruction section. Long story short: he teaches the Hogan swing, inside swings outside.

[dday39]

contrary to popular belief, you don't need to wear a white belt or hit push draws exclusively

[oldschoolrocker]

Bob.
Keep plugging away my friend. The dawn of a new golfing day is just around the bend. Good luck. And as for the "method." I am of the opinion if I could hit the ball with one eye closed standing on one foot no weight shift and using only my arms, if it met my objective(ball control), then it must be okay.

[birly-shirly]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1405108033' post='9682329']

Now the big question is, "Why has Stack and Tilt become a Pariah among the teaching circles?" It is maligned like Leprosy or an STD. Why?
[/quote]

In my opinion, the book is good and worth a read. The stigma, IMO, was a backlash from the way the information was marketed - especially the Golf Digest articles. It was all a bit evangelical, flavour of the month and "we know better than everyone else" for a while. People, especially on the web, separated into "for" and "against" tribes. Golf instructor wars are just about the biggest turn-off in the game for me - and I include within that perspective the marketing of modern clubs and pace of play. To be fair, it takes 2 to hold a p1ssing contest and the SnT crowd weren't the only antagonists.

Much as I enjoyed the book, I feel that there's a bit of a contradiction in the method. On the one hand, they claim that their principles are not radically different from what the great players of the past have done. Everything can supposedly be traced back to what good players do. I've got no quibble at all with that. But on the other hand, it does seem that Stack and Tilters acquire a certain distinctive "look" to their swing - and I don't know that the distinctive parts of that look really can be traced back to the great players from whom the model is supposedly drawn.

Lastly, I thought the information was good. But I had the damnedest time using it to cure a bad hook - even though there's a whole section in the book looking at ballflight cures. I did get rid of the hook in the end - although it was much more conventional medicine, the sort decried in the book, that seemed to do the trick. I do believe that SnT'ers tend to favour a draw as their stock shot - so maybe I was doomed in my efforts to use it to turn a hook into a fade.

If you've found something that helps your ballstriking, then absolutely run with it and the best of luck to you. I will say this though. Whilst I can see the logic of having weight forward and head still, I still see it being difficult to control the low point of your arc if you're flipping the clubhead past the hands before impact. I'm sure the SnT book acknowledges this as a problem - but I don't recall that it had much to say on the causes or cures for flipping.

That's really all based on what I've read. If you can find a SnT instructor you can work with, then I would have no doubt that they will be very focussed on getting you towards consistent ball first contact in the shortest possible time.

Good luck - and let us know how you get on. In some ways, I don't think we talk about technique enough here. If anywhere on the internet could host a golf swing discussion without it degenerating into a cacophony of cat-calling and chest-beating, this would be it.

[HoldenCornfield]

Fantastic post, Birly.

Ironmaster, I was also at the end of my rope about 18 months ago when I decided to rebuild my swing. And now I'm having more fun than ever playing this silly game.

If it seems to be working for you then make the commitment and do it. There's many, many ways to skin this golf cat.

I'll say this, though, if I was going to do it over I'd plunk down the money to get lessons. There's really no substitute for having an expert set of eyeballs to guide you and it should expedite the process greatly...assuming you can locate a really good teacher.

In any event, best of luck to you. I'd hate to see you give up the game, especially if it meant you'd infrequent this board. Your contributions here are invaluable and have been a great source of information on vintage golf clubs.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1405172107' post='9686255']
Fantastic post, Birly.

Ironmaster, I was also at the end of my rope about 18 months ago when I decided to rebuild my swing. And now I'm having more fun than ever playing this silly game.

If it seems to be working for you then make the commitment and do it. There's many, many ways to skin this golf cat.

I'll say this, though, if I was going to do it over I'd plunk down the money to get lessons. There's really no substitute for having an expert set of eyeballs to guide you and it should expedite the process greatly...assuming you can locate a really good teacher.

In any event, best of luck to you. I'd hate to see you give up the game, especially if it meant you'd infrequent this board. Your contributions here are invaluable and have been a great source of information on vintage golf clubs.
[/quote]

HC,
I am a firm believer in teaching pros and taking lessons. I used to always take several lessons every year. Truth be told, I have taken at least four lessons a year every year since I started scraping it around the links. I have become untrainable.
Well, I am trainable ("he can be taught, ladies and gentlemen"). But I have the retention span of a bowling ball. I will start hitting good shots during a lesson. Then, all of a sudden, it is like I have a seizure. My swing becomes possessed by violent aliens. I need an exorcist at this stage, not more lessons

[dbleag]

After spending 5-6 frustrating years working on the One Plane Swing (with lessons), I finally tried S&T and, I must say, it has changed my golf life! Now when I have a round a few over par, I feel like I had a bad day.

I can't say enough good things about how S&T has helped me. Again, I work with an instructor, have all the dvd's and a book.

Putting and short game has become more valuable to me, as I have more birdies putts that ever before. When I occasionally miss a green, I hate to waste a shot by not getting up and down.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='dbleag' timestamp='1405188650' post='9687243']
After spending 5-6 frustrating years working on the One Plane Swing (with lessons), I finally tried S&T and, I must say, it has changed my golf life! Now when I have a round a few over par, I feel like I had a bad day.

I can't say enough good things about how S&T has helped me. Again, I work with an instructor, have all the dvd's and a book.

Putting and short game has become more valuable to me, as I have more birdies putts that ever before. When I occasionally miss a green, I hate to waste a shot by not getting up and down.
[/quote]

Great to hear. I am plugging away.. The acid test will be our invitational tournament, which begins in 10 days. Meanwhile, I am grinding away. Progress, not perfection.
Bob

[oldschoolrocker]

Chin up Bob!!! Keep fighting the good fight and keep us posted. We're all pulling for you.

Randy

[BIG STU]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1405172107' post='9686255']
Fantastic post, Birly.

Ironmaster, I was also at the end of my rope about 18 months ago when I decided to rebuild my swing. And now I'm having more fun than ever playing this silly game.

If it seems to be working for you then make the commitment and do it. There's many, many ways to skin this golf cat.

I'll say this, though, if I was going to do it over I'd plunk down the money to get lessons. There's really no substitute for having an expert set of eyeballs to guide you and it should expedite the process greatly...assuming you can locate a really good teacher.

In any event, best of luck to you. I'd hate to see you give up the game, especially if it meant you'd infrequent this board. Your contributions here are invaluable and have been a great source of information on vintage golf clubs.
[/quote]Good advice Holden. everyone is different and I tend to believe the instructional tapes and books may not work for everyone. But under the watchful eye of a good instructor he/she may spot one little flaw that you maybe can correct with out rebuilding the whole swing. Also that same instructor may modify the method to better suit you or even come up with a more fitting method. I will say one thing if you are as old as I am and have been playing on and off as long as I have it is hard to rebuild a swing. I know I tried a few years back and could not play a lick for several years. On advice of a friend who is a great instructor I went back to my way of doing things. It may not be fundementally correct but it works for me.I will tell you one other thing though the old addage "you cannot teach a old dog new tricks" rang true for me. Also there is no absolutely correct way to hit a golf ball. Just look at some of the swings on the Champion's Tour especially guys like Jim Thorpe and Allen Doyle.

[Ironmaster Oddities]

I am gradually getting my swing to bottom out in the same place. Now all I need to do is hit the ball 3 or 4 inches before the bottom of the swing on my irons. Then, if I just turn my left hip out of the way, the results are pretty sweet. I guess if you give a monkey a typewriter and enough paper, sometimes he can spell a word or two.

[oldschoolrocker]

Keep the faith Bob. I know the biggest determining factor for me in keeping the bottom of my swing arc consistent is tempo. I tend to have a gorilla seizure at times and it leads to hitting the big ball first. When all I do is think tempo my body gets in sync with the swing and all is well. Man, there's not one of us, the truth be told, that hasn't experienced frustration with the swing. It's that spacial awareness that leaves us when we "git the hits" by not allowing our subconscious mind control in processing the data and "reacting."

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1405642037' post='9724093']
Keep the faith Bob. I know the biggest determining factor for me in keeping the bottom of my swing arc consistent is tempo. I tend to have a gorilla seizure at times and it leads to hitting the big ball first. When all I do is think tempo my body gets in sync with the swing and all is well. Man, there's not one of us, the truth be told, that hasn't experienced frustration with the swing. It's that spacial awareness that leaves us when we "git the hits" by not allowing our subconscious mind control in processing the data and "reacting."
[/quote]

+1. Especially with the driver and long irons, I've found recently its all about tempo and staying tension free. It's amazing how far you can hit the ball this way, despite feeling like you're only making an 80% effort. I'm learning to trust it, however.

[ScooterMcTavish]

Good luck Bob. If anything you do helps you enjoy the game we love, then do it. Complete lack of clubhead control would send me screaming for the hills.

Just for a bit of contrast, I was trying just about everything three years ago to no success. I was almost paralyzed on the tee as all the swing thoughts crowded into my head. So I went completely back to a feel swing, and worked on positioning and flexibility. To me, the less I think about my swing other than "keep your head down", it seems, the better.

Please, let us know how this works for you. Maybe Mr. Scooter needs to give this a try.

[BIG STU]

Scooter I agree with you on what you posted. Recently I have been playing with an old friend I had not played with for a couple of years and he asked me to help him with his game. I told him you know darn well I aint a swing instructor. He said I know thats why he wanted me to help him. This guy is in his 60 s and is a perfect specimen of health for his age. He is a martial arts instructor and holds several deep degrees in various martial arts. He also owns his own martial arts school. That is his problem he is so techinicial focused he had gotten blogged down with mechanics. I had to get him out of that I told him you are over instructed. I know a little martial arts (enough to get my butt kicked) so I threw a move on him and he blocked it without hesitation. I asked him did you really think about that? Not really he replied. Ok then just hit the ball dont think about it. He piddled around a bit and finally shouted to him HIT THE FRIGGING BALL MAN! Golf aint perfect and there aint no pictures on a score card dont think about it hit the ball. Guess what he got it. Got him to relate to martial arts by telling him I know people are different and some make some karate moves good and some bad but it all blends in. take what you got and do it!
I played with him 2 weeks ago and I had to play hard to beat him. Funny how the mind works. But it done us both good He got back to playing good and it made me play harder. It is a bad trait of mine that get lackluster when playing with people I know I can beat but when they get to firing at me hard I mash the pedal and go

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Well, friends and neighbors. here we go. Tomorrow is the opening day of our clubs 4-ball invitational. The proverbial acid test as to whether my "new swing" will cut muster...or not. I have been grinding for a month, which is not too long in the scheme of things. and it is still a work in progress. I have on;ly played once since changing.
But it was the best round of the year. It is sometimes Magic and sometimes Tragic. But I am cautiously optimistic. I will let you know.
Uncle Bob

[oldschoolrocker]

Fairways and greens Bob. Good luck.

[dday39]

here we go!

[HoldenCornfield]

Best of luck, Bob!

[Ironmaster Oddities]

First round of the Invitational.
Awful. But I did hit some really good shots.short game was mediocre and I hit a lot of bad irons. Driver coming around, but very short for some reason. 225 to 240. Still not hitting the shot square. 51-44. So there was progress. But it is very difficult to remain true to my new swing thoughts.

I had a hard time taking my new swing from the range to the course. that is always hard, especially in a tournament. I have always likened it to 1st century Christianity:
the practice area is like being in the catacombs, in hiding with all your persecuted brethren. Everyone is supportive of one another and there is a feeling of safety and your beliefs are strong. You don't have to play your foul balls. However, the golf course is like being thrown into the Collesium with the lions, tigers and Gladiators. it is tough to keep the faith when the wild animals are tearing you limb from limb. As the saying goes, "when you are up to your a** in alligators, it is hard to find the plug to drain the swamp.

More news tomorrow.

Uncle Bob

[HoldenCornfield]

Glad to hear there was some progress. That is a difficult time to make a swing change.

By the way, WITB?

[oldschoolrocker]

Thanks for the update Bob. Give 'em hell. As it's been said before the longest walk is from the practice tee to the first tee.

[Kirasdad]

Go get 'em UB! I know it is muy dificil, as we say here in SoCal (well, 38 % of us here, anyway) to make a major change and take it to the course, much less a tournament, but stay with it. It's darkest before the dawn, and all that. "But I did hit some really good shots" was I believe your quote. That is a great way to measure progress, i.e. in this round I hit 12 good shots, next round 14 or 15 and so on. Takes the pressure off of demon score. I personally really respect what you are doing. The classic wrxers are behind you 100 per cent.

[Kathy Marie]

+1 Uncle Bob!!

And Thank You--I think you are an inspiration to us all.

Rooting for you,

Kathy Marie

[Ironmaster Oddities]

Update on Stack and Tilt:

Last 2 rounds of our invitational were better: 91 and 88. We finished 2nd .Unfortunately my business partner and his guest were the winners. So now I have to listen to his crap for another 11 months.
Some progress in swing Played in Indy last week and scraped it around in 91; but I must have 3-putted 7 times. I had the touch of a 2-man tool and die operation. I have seen better strokes in the crash car on an ambulance.

Still too many horrible shots However, I think my posture has been poor. I have been bending from the waist, instead of from the hips. So have been losing my balance and not maintaining the spine angle. I need to get some video or have someone watch me for a while. But I don't know if I could subject a friend to that punishment.

If I didn't hit the occasional terrific shot, it would be easier to just find another hobby. But the question of ,"why can't I do that every time?" keeps haunting me. Heck, if I could just hit average to good shots most of the time, it would not be so disgusting. But when you pick up a club, especially a short iron, and you feel like you have a venomous reptile in your grasp, it is difficult at best to make a relaxed complete swing. Sometimes in my forward swing, I think Jeffry Dahmer or Lizzy Borden has invaded my body.
I think I play golf the way old people make love... But that is a topic for another thread.

Golf your ball, y'all.
Uncle Bob

[Woodridge]

Nice thread. It's fun to read what others are working on and how it's going without it becoming all about mechanics. That's what I love about this section of WRX...we seemingly play more golf and play less golf swing than our younger brethren.

I hope you get the kinks work out with Stack and Tilt. If not, there are a lot of ways to skin a cat and I'm sure you don't need to be told that. I've hung in there with the slicefixer method and it's finally bearing fruit after a couple of years. Like anything else, if you can get that one thing to click, you'll have it.

Looking forward to reading more about your journey.

jim

[Ironmaster Oddities]

I think that stack and tilt has helped me, if for no other reason than to stay centered. It is a good concept for the bottom half of the irons, maybe 7-iron through the wedges. It was not so helpful on the woods, I'm not dumping it completely; but it has helped me isolate the part of my swing that causes such problems on my forward swing. So now I will be able to, hopefully, make a more consistent swing. Going to give it a whirl on Monday . Results to be reported Monday PM.
I've been "in the lab" working on the swing 3times a week. but I Haven't play yes in 5 weeks; so in should be interesting.

[oldschoolrocker]

Good luck Bob. Keep us posted.