Going From JDM Back to USDM...?

[PepsiDuck]

I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...

[potuna]

I think the biggest difference lies in the forged irons. Much better feel and quality to me, in the hybrids, fairways and drivers not as much.

[freehb]

I'll give you drivers and maybe utes (although I wouldn't go there personally). Wedges and fairways though...c'mon Pete, when's the last time u hit a usdm wedge? I only throw in fairways b/c the 202 is so sublime...prob only reason I acknowledge drivers and Utes is b/c I'm gaming ryoma and they sound and feel horrible by epon standards...

[Bigmean]

I am really new to japanese clubs, well kinda. I played mizuno mp 14s forever, and always wondered how anyone could play anything other than mizuno, or why more people didn't......I am a feel player, and forged clubs are different, period. Good forged clubs are better, or should I say feel different in a better way. Good and better are subjective to the person, but the japanese have the best menu for it.

.I just got some baby blades and although they don't qualify for JDM they are the best things I have ever hit. I had the fourteen fh1000 for like 3 weeks and hated them, I am sure some people love them, so it is all subjective, but forged clubs is what Japan does right. I just stole a set of vega blades off eBay for $255 and I am currently refinishing them. The dudes length and lie was not right for me, but I could tell by hitting just a few balls before breaking them down that they definitely had "it".

I hit some new cobra muscle back forged things and they were ok, but I hit an mp 4 next and it was just that much better, and neither of them were close to my 1957s. So yes I could totally be happy playing those cobras and the mp 4's really felt pretty sweet, I would still shoot the same and have enough feel to be more satisfied and all that, but like I told my friend, if hitting my mizunos is like having sex with a condom, hitting my Miuras is feels like having sex with a hotter girl and not wearing a condom. It isn't that one isn't good, it is that the other taking something good and making it that much better. Japan offers wayyyyy more of that than your local Edwin watts or golfsmith.

Now the whole true definition of "JDM" thing means nothing to me. In my book mizuno, any past titliest, Taylor makes, bridgstone, nikes etc. that were forged over there by endo or miura or whoever, is a japan product that I would buy here in the US with no problems whatsoever and the same expectations I would have for a set of epons or whatever. Really, mizuno makes the best clubs for the money if you looked at it objectively. Of course that is just my opinion.

[Shambles]

Freehb, IamMarkMac, and Steveopagolf,

Who can define quality in measureable terms ? I've found that QUALITY, is more a declaration than a measureable definition when used in the discussion forums, unless you are speaking to that aberration Tom Wishon. That guy can drown you in details.

I like the Japanese products I bought because they were made of steel during a time that the US was in love with the Japanese school of robot designs and making them in bright colors and plastics. Likewise, these days I feel better with clubs that are a little lighter and softer to flex. I even rebuilt my Eye 2's accordingly, though I am restoring them to what they used to be. ( I went a little too far with the light and soft. )

Japanese clubs seem to be more on the light and flexier side than US clubs, and a touch shorter. I like them both.



Shambles

[Bigmean]

I think that because they don't stuff their clubs(or clubs that look like their clubs but are made a little different) in tour players bags, then flood stores with a million of the same kind of ones size fits all, and then sell them all becuase so and so plays them on tour. For me, liking to play blades, what are my options here? Mizuno obviously, and then stuff that looks off to me or American gimmicky like Adams, cobra, tm tour prefferred etc. Then I stumble upon tourspec golf and it is clean blade after good looking blade from a bunch of stuff I have never heard of, but even in internet pictures you can just tell they are sick.

I will admit that at this point I am going to go out of my way to avoid US big store clubs just because I feel they have wronged me and I vote with my money. And the fact that most people will look at your bag and be like nice Kmart clubs is a total bonus(I like that more than exclusivity). But the be all end all is feel. No gimmicks, no advertisements, just a feel that is the result of quality from forge to grind.

[dunn]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]those are actually JDM.....they are forged in japan

[MBBG]

[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1413602391' post='10308305']
[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]those are actually JDM.....they are forged in japan
[/quote]

You're joking, right?

[Bigmean]

[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]

I know you guys here are hardcore has to be japanese market only and even miura doesn't count, but seriously going mizunos almost shouldn't even count as going usdm .

[stevopagolf]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1413180135' post='10277141']
Freehb, IamMarkMac, and Steveopagolf,

Who can define quality in measureable terms ? I've found that QUALITY, is more a declaration than a measureable definition when used in the discussion forums, unless you are speaking to that aberration Tom Wishon. That guy can drown you in details.

I like the Japanese products I bought because they were made of steel during a time that the US was in love with the Japanese school of robot designs and making them in bright colors and plastics. Likewise, these days I feel better with clubs that are a little lighter and softer to flex. I even rebuilt my Eye 2's accordingly, though I am restoring them to what they used to be. ( I went a little too far with the light and soft. )

Japanese clubs seem to be more on the light and flexier side than US clubs, and a touch shorter. I like them both.



Shambles
[/quote]

My post had everything to do about offerings that were available overseas vs. here, not anything to do with a quality difference. Any MFG can set the acceptable tolerances to produce quality and it has little to do with where the factory is.

Your point on weight and flex are dead on. Japanese folks on average are smaller and lighter so their clubs tend to be so as well. I had to add tip weights to my VG3's to get the swing weight to where I like it. I also reshafted them to get the flex I wanted. Length on the standard shafts were fine. Interesting note on attention to detail, the lofts were dead on the stated specs from Titleist which made the gaps perfect. I did weaken flex by 2* to get to a 46* PW. Lofts are very strong these days.

[MJisGOAT]

I like my irons handmade like I like my cigars.

Quality over quantity.

Nothing wrong with the USDM, but anything mass produced is lacking in quality compared to the miurA I play.

Just as I won't smoke a cigar if it ain't padron or some legit Habana, so it is with my gear.

Personal preference of course, and it's not like I can carry them with me when I passover to the next unknown, so might as well enjoy the quality while present.

[Shambles]

Weight and flex are just about all the significant difference there is between US and Japan clubs, and I'm thinking it's more because of the shafts used in assembly and market taste. In short, the US market appears to gravitate more towards heft in their toys. I had forgotten how good a bit of heft can feel until I borrowed a Cleveland Driver from a friend for a look/try. The club was fresh from a US shelf clearly made for the US market and felt great and also worked very well. The looks never attracted me but that over all feel still haunts my memories. I'll probably try to emulate the feel in one of my clubs if I ever find the right materials at a price I'm willing to pay. Color me shallow. I loved the feel but I could not accept that paper bag candidate. Another future project that will likely never even see a beginning.

The lines between the two markets are not as clearly defined as I tend to make it seem in my description. Expensive horrors are just as available on either side as well as cheap gold. Just be happy that these days when it's shopping time, there truly is a lot to look at.



Shambles

[Bigmean]

I just assembled my Vegas last night......I melted lead fishing weights to use in the tips and was kinda stunned at how much I needed to get them to go from D1.5 in 3 iron to D4 in PW. With no weight they were like C3-5...of course I know nothing about club building as this is my first real shot at refinishing irons, but I am a fabricator by trade and made fishing rods for years so I think I did pretty good.

[Aston55]

JDM clubs definitely have a tighter tolerance in manufacturing.

[Kingcat990]

[quote name='MBBG' timestamp='1413607086' post='10308555']
[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1413602391' post='10308305']
[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]those are actually JDM.....they are forged in japan
[/quote]

You're joking, right?
[/quote]

Where was the joke?

[Bigmean]

Forged in japan for us market doesn't qualify. Rather than a sweet japanese forged club with the feel that is not really found in all oems except mizuno, the purity of striking and feedback offered and all things that make japanese forged steel awesome being the presumable point of this section, it is more about being super cool with clubs that are the same or worse but only available in japan.......with the exception of the internet/global economy of course....

[MBBG]

[quote name='Kingcat990' timestamp='1413937114' post='10329315']
[quote name='MBBG' timestamp='1413607086' post='10308555']
[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1413602391' post='10308305']
[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]those are actually JDM.....they are forged in japan
[/quote]

You're joking, right?
[/quote]

Where was the joke?
[/quote]

It has been discussed ad nauseum that JDM means a product that has been developed and is only marketed to the Japanese golf market. Meaning it is not available at retail in the United States. Yes, Mizuno is a Japanese brand forged in Japan but they have a JDM line and a global/USDM line.

I thought the poster was being tongue in cheek when referring to usdm Mizunos as JDM. JDM has nothing to do with being cool or exclusive or where it is made, it's strictly a reference to where the particular product is marketed.

[Bigmean]

For the record, I am new here, but I am also a ball buster/sarcastic in a not really always serious way so I do have a tendency to write a post that comes off wayyyy different than if I said it during a round. My last post reads more Dickish than I intended as it would have been said in a smiling ribbing way in person. Typed text adds confusion on forums sometimes, or at least it does for smartasses like me.

[Shambles]

[quote name='patrickxkim' timestamp='1413819502' post='10319475']
JDM clubs definitely have a tighter tolerance in manufacturing.
[/quote]

There was a time that had a chance to be true, but the heritage costs of old Japanese employment practice pretty much went out the window in the last Asian Economic Meltdown which happened in the late nineties. I do not know this for a fact and do not have any convenient means of determining the truth of the matter, but there were a lot of failures for companies in that meltdown and many promises could not be delivered upon because of company failures. I'm pretty sure a lot of companies had to reconsider and be much more reluctant to accept heritage burdens which, in turn, would cause employees to reconsider their own loyalties to the companies employing them. There are now many things we can not take for granted or accept on faith. Time has changed many conditions and standards might have been forced to change.



Shambles

[Sira]

At one point, when I was younger I had a bag full of JDM clubs here: Katana woods, Honma irons (granted the cheap one, three stars), and a Yonex putter.
Then I went to the US for high school, bought a whole set of Titleist clubs and didn't notice much of a difference between the two sets. Sure, the JDMs finishes were more detailed and the Honma was softer than Titleist 690s, but performance wise, the different if any was negligible.


Another point, I think a lot of JDM stuff are actually marketed and sold outside of Japan. Sure they may not be sold in the US, but here in Thailand we have shops for Honma, Katana, Ryoma, Superman, Fourteen, Epon, Kasco, PRGR, Tourstage, etc. Japanese clubs are more popular around Asia because we have similar physiques.

[dunn]

[quote name='MBBG' timestamp='1413607086' post='10308555']
[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1413602391' post='10308305']
[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]those are actually JDM.....they are forged in japan
[/quote]

You're joking, right?
[/quote]half of the JDM clubs aren't even forged in japan but mizuno which actually is forged in japan isn't JDM?.....LOL,now that's some funny chit......guess it has to be forged in Thailand now...haha

I have hit Miura, RC, yamaha, yonex and few other japanese clubs......it's a snob thing...wasn't anything special.....

There was a time when I really wanted a set but to be honest it was just to be different and to be "cool"....they didn't feel any better or make my score any better.....it was for pure vanity that's it.....but I value $2000 alot more than I value my vanity so, lol

[Soloman1]

[quote name='Shambles' timestamp='1414232825' post='10348069']
[quote name='patrickxkim' timestamp='1413819502' post='10319475']
JDM clubs definitely have a tighter tolerance in manufacturing.
[/quote]

There was a time that had a chance to be true, but the heritage costs of old Japanese employment practice pretty much went out the window in the last Asian Economic Meltdown which happened in the late nineties. I do not know this for a fact and do not have any convenient means of determining the truth of the matter, but there were a lot of failures for companies in that meltdown and many promises could not be delivered upon because of company failures. I'm pretty sure a lot of companies had to reconsider and be much more reluctant to accept heritage burdens which, in turn, would cause employees to reconsider their own loyalties to the companies employing them. There are now many things we can not take for granted or accept on faith. Time has changed many conditions and standards might have been forced to change.



Shambles
[/quote]

In difficult economies, Japanese companies will generally try to enhance quality, not just cheapen total cost of goods sold like in the west. The consumer is more discriminating in purchase decisions, and in Japan, the consumer will opt for the highest quality product that fills their need, not the lowest cost one.

There is also a big difference between Japanese and western employee culture and priorities that you aren't aware of. I've found that I had to be willing to give up all my notions from the west to understand Japan. After almost 23 years, I'm starting to get the hang of it...

[Shambles]

Soloman1,

Granted there are cultural differences, there are also commonalities. In hard times we reach for simplicity and durability. Quality has a different measure and standard for the rich and the poor. When the worker is treated as a ball bearing he no longer has a reason to take pride in his membership in that work force and take cheer in that companies success. If a worker has nothing to look forward to from one day to the next, except another day of drawing a salary and nothing more, he can be more easily drawn to another work force by the offer of a more attractive salary even if it's only more attractive housing, a new car or a better neighborhood. In the same vein, a company will be less inclined to invest in developing the skills of that worker if they can so easily lose him to another. There you see the beginnings of standards that are not so very tight. If the market on the whole cannot distinguish, why bother ? The better idea would be for the company to survive and keep the employees employed.



Shambles

[Soloman1]

Once again, you're looking through western-colored glasses.

[Shambles]

I disagree.

You need to free your mind of the mythic colors and see the world for what it is. People the world over are all the same shaded only by local necessities and religions. When you look to the heart of the matter, you will see your brother who grew under different conditions in a different place.

Leave the tourist spots and look to where the people live, try to get to know them and how they live. It's not difficult.



Shambles

[Soloman1]

I've lived in Japan for almost 23 years and you're going to tell me to leave the tourist spots? I don't think you know enough to even understand what you're disagreeing with.

[Shambles]

There's not much one can do when dealing with an adult steeped in superstition. Have a nice day.



Shambles

[freehb]

have you ever had dinner at a friends house and the family is really excited and love a certain meal that you think is not very good? It's human nature to have a preference for what you're used to..,the mind will remember positive things or feelings more clearly and abundantly than it will painful ones...survival....helps keep people from going crazy...one can get used to anything...we only comprehend pleasure though experiencing pain....that's why it's hard to go back...if you believe it's better it is...

Mbbg, potuna...u are evolved dudes for going back (@least in part potuna)...I have no desire...I believe jdm is better, feels better, looks better and is more fun...

[Shambles]

Freehb,


You've cited an example that echos in my mind. When you travel, see the world as it is and accept the world as you find it. The experience will be so much more complete if you eat taste the local food and spice, at least as much as you can afford or are able to. That is why I recommend leaving the tourist places and spend a bit of time visiting the places the locals live. That way you see what they want you to see and also see their day to day.



Shambles

[MBBG]

[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1415821477' post='10436153']
[quote name='MBBG' timestamp='1413607086' post='10308555']
[quote name='dunn' timestamp='1413602391' post='10308305']
[quote name='PepsiDuck' timestamp='1412460819' post='10236321']
I ended up going USDM...Mizunos...
[/quote]those are actually JDM.....they are forged in japan
[/quote]

You're joking, right?
[/quote]half of the JDM clubs aren't even forged in japan but mizuno which actually is forged in japan isn't JDM?.....LOL,now that's some funny chit......guess it has to be forged in Thailand now...haha

I have hit Miura, RC, yamaha, yonex and few other japanese clubs......it's a snob thing...wasn't anything special.....

There was a time when I really wanted a set but to be honest it was just to be different and to be "cool"....they didn't feel any better or make my score any better.....it was for pure vanity that's it.....but I value $2000 alot more than I value my vanity so, lol
[/quote]

You're still not getting it. JDM doesn't have anything to do with the nation of manufacture. It stands for "Japanese Domestic Product." Which means the product is designed for and marketed in the Japanese market place.

It doesn't refer to a manufacturing process, a certain type of forging, a name brand, a status symbol, or cost. It doesn't refer to exclusivity, or manufacturing tolerances, or feel, or materials. It refers to where it is marketed.

There are Mizuno, Miura, Yonex, Fourteen, etc clubs that are designed and even forged in Japan, but are not even available for purchase in Japan. That means those clubs, by definition, are NOT JDM golf clubs. Mizuno and Miura have alternative products that they design and produce in Japan, and sell in Japan. Those ARE JDM golf clubs. It's a very simple concept.

Brands like Yamaha, RomaRo, ONOFF, Epon, Modart, and many other more even boutique brands in Japan may or may not all be made in Japan, but they are JDM because their target market is the Japanese consumer. They have next to no distribution channels in the United States.

All these facts aside, I give no ishts whether or not you care if JDM or clubs made in Japan for the US market are special or not, nor do I suspect that most others in the JDM forum care whether or not you like JDM clubs. I find, almost exclusively, that the anti-JDM trolls that come into the JDM forum, have basically no experience with premium JDM equipment, and come in spouting excerpts from Tom Wishon posts/articles to prove that people who enjoy such equipment are either stupid, vain or both.

Which begs the question, if you don't care about the equipment, why the hell are you here?