Some ideas about the trail arm straightening

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419432739' post='10637003']
Russ if elbow is staying the same flex and we are rotating the hands are moving faster than the elbow. This is exactly why I wrote the definition the way I did. If right arm stays the same flex, which it does for maybe 0.05 seconds, it's moving at the same RATE, not speed. The hands will be moving in a bigger circle than the elbow covering a greater distance over the same period of time. You know moving faster. This isn't getting into the fact that as soon as the right arm arm begins rotating internally the hands move at a drastically faster rate than the elbow. You better hope your right shoulder isn't externally rotating the entire downswing. You could move the elbow at a faster rate for a very short period of time but right arm would increase in bend significantly.
[/quote]
If there is no rotation of the shoulder or extension of the lower arm ,the distance traveled by the right elbow will be the same as the hands.When a golfer rotates his right shoulder externally ,the right elbow will rotate a greater distance than the hands,NOT the other way around.That is the entire point of Kelvin's video.However if the right shoulder rotates internally the hands will move more than the right elbow.I am NOT even remotely suggesting that you teach internal rotation in TRANSITION;i am only describing the type of shoulder rotation resulting in the hands moving faster than the right elbow at this stage of the swing.

As the downswing progresses,the right arm straightens and the hands do speed up relative to the right elbow.Going down the right shoulder moves toward internal rotation,but never becomes internally rotated (at least in Mr Hogan's swing) until after impact.Meanwhile, contrary to a recently made video ,the left shoulder remains in internal rotation thru impact.

It might be good idea for you to post a video showing exactly what 45 degrees or 30 degrees of right arm bend looks like in the lower downswing and at impact

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Mr Mustard' timestamp='1419448927' post='10638181']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419447417' post='10638085']
Keep posting personal insults because you can't admit you were wrong. A real man could simply state they were wrong and actually learn rather than stay ignorant and look like a fool.


And I'm fine with my tattoos. Never have tried to hide them. I've even posted pictures here in other threads. They were done for me not you or anyone else. And anyone who knows me knows I couldn't care less about your opinion on them
[/quote]

Real men don't need to draw on themselves to remember significant events or memories.

And what exactly have I been wrong about? I've said that:

-setting up lower than impact is not fundamental

-I don't think straightening the right arm immediately from the top is the best way to deliver the club

Are either of those false?
[/quote]

I also never said that setting up lower than impact is a fundamental. Just that is you don't you will have to compensate.

For the second one yes, very false. The right arm begins straightening almost immediately. Momentum delays it as the hands resist changing direction coming down. And there is a lot more resistance on the hands than the shoulder due to momentum in transition. So it doesn't visually straighten immediately but its trying to. Just like when throwing something. Arms doesn't straighten immediately but the intent is to straighten it immediately. Momentum when changing direction plays a very similar part there as well.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419447417' post='10638085']
Keep posting personal insults because you can't admit you were wrong. A real man could simply state they were wrong and actually learn rather than stay ignorant and look like a fool.


And I'm fine with my tattoos. Never have tried to hide them. I've even posted pictures here in other threads. They were done for me not you or anyone else. And anyone who knows me knows I couldn't care less about your opinion on them
[/quote]
Insults of ANY kind should not exist on Golfwrx.Even though i have had disagreements with Iteach in the past and probably will have more in the future .he is a fine teacher and an asset to Golfwrx.

[iteachgolf]

Russ if elbow is staying the same flex and we are rotating the hands are moving faster than the elbow. This is exactly why I wrote the definition the way I did. If right arm stays the same flex, which it does for maybe 0.05 seconds, it's moving at the same RATE, not speed. The hands will be moving in a bigger circle than the elbow covering a greater distance over the same period of time. You know moving faster. This isn't getting into the fact that as soon as the right arm arm begins rotating internally the hands move at a drastically faster rate than the elbow. You better hope your right shoulder isn't externally rotating the entire downswing. You could move the elbow at a faster rate for a very short period of time but right arm would increase in bend significantly.

If there is no rotation of the shoulder or extension of the lower arm ,the distance traveled by the right elbow will be the same as the hands.When a golfer rotates his right shoulder externally ,the right elbow will rotate a greater distance than the hands,NOT the other way around.That is the entire point of Kelvin's video.However if the right shoulder rotates internally the hands will move more than the right elbow.I am NOT even remotely suggesting that you teach internal rotation in TRANSITION;i am only describing the type of shoulder rotation resulting in the hands moving faster than the right elbow at this stage of the swing.

 

As the downswing progresses,the right arm straightens and the hands do speed up relative to the right elbow.Going down the right shoulder moves toward internal rotation,but never becomes internally rotated (at least in Mr Hogan's swing) until after impact.Meanwhile, contrary to a recently made video ,the left shoulder remains in internal rotation thru impact.

 

It might be good idea for you to post a video showing exactly what 45 degrees or 30 degrees of right arm bend looks like in the lower downswing and at impact

 

I don't need to post a video. There are plenty of pictures posted here. To make this real simple I'll post them again

 

 

 

48*

 

Both are bent less at impact

 

You're trying to look at things in isolation. The entire system is rotating. Because the hands are further from the center they are not moving at the same speed as the elbow, maybe the same rate but not the same speed. Even if the elbow is moving at a slightly faster rate still doesn't mean the elbow is moving at a faster speed than the hands.

 

 

In these photos the right elbow INCREASED in flex meaning the elbow is moving at a slightly faster RATE. But the hands still traveled a greater distance and are moving at a faster SPEED than the elbow.

 

 

Still the same flex or a touch more than the top of the swing. They are NOT moving anywhere near the same speed. Hands are moving MUCH faster even though the arm hasn't changed in flex much

[russc1597187869]

Russ if elbow is staying the same flex and we are rotating the hands are moving faster than the elbow. This is exactly why I wrote the definition the way I did. If right arm stays the same flex, which it does for maybe 0.05 seconds, it's moving at the same RATE, not speed. The hands will be moving in a bigger circle than the elbow covering a greater distance over the same period of time. You know moving faster. This isn't getting into the fact that as soon as the right arm arm begins rotating internally the hands move at a drastically faster rate than the elbow. You better hope your right shoulder isn't externally rotating the entire downswing. You could move the elbow at a faster rate for a very short period of time but right arm would increase in bend significantly.

If there is no rotation of the shoulder or extension of the lower arm ,the distance traveled by the right elbow will be the same as the hands.When a golfer rotates his right shoulder externally ,the right elbow will rotate a greater distance than the hands,NOT the other way around.That is the entire point of Kelvin's video.However if the right shoulder rotates internally the hands will move more than the right elbow.I am NOT even remotely suggesting that you teach internal rotation in TRANSITION;i am only describing the type of shoulder rotation resulting in the hands moving faster than the right elbow at this stage of the swing.

 

As the downswing progresses,the right arm straightens and the hands do speed up relative to the right elbow.Going down the right shoulder moves toward internal rotation,but never becomes internally rotated (at least in Mr Hogan's swing) until after impact.Meanwhile, contrary to a recently made video ,the left shoulder remains in internal rotation thru impact.

 

It might be good idea for you to post a video showing exactly what 45 degrees or 30 degrees of right arm bend looks like in the lower downswing and at impact

 

I don't need to post a video. There are plenty of pictures posted here. To make this real simple I'll post them again

 

 

 

48*

 

Both are bent less at impact

 

You're trying to look at things in isolation. The entire system is rotating. Because the hands are further from the center they are not moving at the same speed as the elbow, maybe the same rate but not the same speed. Even if the elbow is moving at a slightly faster rate still doesn't mean the elbow is moving at a faster speed than the hands.

 

 

In these photos the right elbow INCREASED in flex meaning the elbow is moving at a slightly faster RATE. But the hands still traveled a greater distance and are moving at a faster SPEED than the elbow.

 

 

Still the same flex or a touch more than the top of the swing. They are NOT moving anywhere near the same speed. Hands are moving MUCH faster even though the arm hasn't changed in flex much

Yes there is a whole lot happening outside the arms which affect the speed of ALL segments

 

i am referring specifically to distance traveled in a period of time

[iteachgolf]

So am I. The photo illustrates it as simple as possible. You're trying to not see it. Blinded by wrong beliefs.

In the photos I posted of Quiros it shows that even with right arm increasing in flex slightly, by right elbow moving at a slightly faster RATE that the hands are still traveling at a faster SPEED. The hands move a larger distance during the same period of time. This is why the hand end of the line is further apart than the elbow side of the line.

[GwrxMod]

Thread has been cleaned up. Please, keep posts on topic and be mindful of the posting rules.

Thanks!

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='GwrxMod' timestamp='1419451872' post='10638367']
Thread has been cleaned up. Please, keep posts on topic and be mindful of the posting rules.

Thanks!
[/quote]

What, no tattoo smack?! See, I think the kind of tats used are essential to understanding and executing proper r arm release.

[PingG10guy]

No...golfwrxmod will not moderate your cheezy post about tats

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1419445003' post='10637897']
Dan...keeping the right arm bent too long would make it harder to effectively use the unconscious forearm rotation involved in closing the clubface right?
[/quote]
Not unconscious but "passive"

[TB07]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419465465' post='10639075']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1419445003' post='10637897']
Dan...keeping the right arm bent too long would make it harder to effectively use the unconscious forearm rotation involved in closing the clubface right?
[/quote]
Not unconscious but "passive"
[/quote]

Can you elaborate on that some more? I personally think that's more dependent on the individual.

On a side note, it's amazing how many people resort to derogatory comments about someone's character on these threads. Sure fire sign that they have been defeated.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1419446436' post='10638011']
Breaking news....... Video is 2 dimensional and you can not see the right arm straightening from a face on view. You can however use that view to make yourself believe the right arm doesn't straighten.
[/quote]
2 dimensional videos present a problem for any type of golf analysis ,no doubt about that .
What about using drawing tools to try to determine the amount of right arm bend in the impact zone.Isnt that a highly subjective task

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1419468596' post='10639199']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419465465' post='10639075']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1419445003' post='10637897']
Dan...keeping the right arm bent too long would make it harder to effectively use the unconscious forearm rotation involved in closing the clubface right?
[/quote]
Not unconscious but "passive"
[/quote]

Can you elaborate on that some more? I personally think that's more dependent on the individual.

On a side note, it's amazing how many people resort to derogatory comments about someone's character on these threads. Sure fire sign that they have been defeated.
[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw

[bph7]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419468611' post='10639203']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1419446436' post='10638011']
Breaking news....... Video is 2 dimensional and you can not see the right arm straightening from a face on view. You can however use that view to make yourself believe the right arm doesn't straighten.
[/quote]
2 dimensional videos present a problem for any type of golf analysis ,no doubt about that .
What about using drawing tools to try to determine the amount of right arm bend in the impact zone.Isnt that a highly subjective task
[/quote]

Russ, the point of drawing the lines to determine elbow bend is to refute the ridiculous and untrue assertions by people such as yourself that the pros we are discussing have anywhere near a 90* angle in the right elbow at impact. they don't, and it doesn't take more than a few simple drawings to show that.

[TB07]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419468723' post='10639207']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1419468596' post='10639199']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419465465' post='10639075']
[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1419445003' post='10637897']
Dan...keeping the right arm bent too long would make it harder to effectively use the unconscious forearm rotation involved in closing the clubface right?
[/quote]
Not unconscious but "passive"
[/quote]

Can you elaborate on that some more? I personally think that's more dependent on the individual.

On a side note, it's amazing how many people resort to derogatory comments about someone's character on these threads. Sure fire sign that they have been defeated.
[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuJaSM7Kexw
[/quote]

I have seen this video and they don't discuss passive vs unconcious. They mention passive torque but also say you CAN have muscular effort. I more wanted YOUR description or idea of "not unconcious but passive".

[northgolf]

Fribitz, just plain wrong

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419468611' post='10639203']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1419446436' post='10638011']
Breaking news....... Video is 2 dimensional and you can not see the right arm straightening from a face on view. You can however use that view to make yourself believe the right arm doesn't straighten.
[/quote]
2 dimensional videos present a problem for any type of golf analysis ,no doubt about that .
What about using drawing tools to try to determine the amount of right arm bend in the impact zone.Isnt that a highly subjective task
[/quote]
Well if you use a bit of deductive reasoning and realize a few things it's not that hard. If something is square to the camera and moving towards it you will not be able to measure it. If something is 90deg to the camera (like a dtl view of the right arm at impact) you can get a pretty accurate representation of what's really going on because the two dimensions you are seeing are the important ones.

[whiteflash]

Cliff notes of the thread=try and straighten right arm as fast as possible?

[moneytalks]

[quote name='whiteflash' timestamp='1419479638' post='10639689']
Cliff notes of the thread=try and straighten right arm as fast as possible?
[/quote]
I read this whole thread tonight , and I'm totally confused beyond confused . I really just hit the ball and do the best I can when I play . My head is aching now ; but a great discussion and thanks for the cliff note

[whiteflash]

[quote name='moneytalks' timestamp='1419489815' post='10640013'][quote name='whiteflash' timestamp='1419479638' post='10639689']
Cliff notes of the thread=try and straighten right arm as fast as possible?
[/quote]
I read this whole thread tonight , and I'm totally confused beyond confused . I really just hit the ball and do the best I can when I play . My head is aching now ; but a great discussion and thanks for the cliff note [/quote]

I'm confused as well. Not sure if my cliff note is even correct , hence the question mark. I was just wanting someone to summarize the thread which may or not be possible!

[Qegurezi]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419369031' post='10634401']
[quote name='Shaggie' timestamp='1419368870' post='10634391']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419365461' post='10634181']
Lie angle is more of a ballflight tool. Groubd is hit after the ball. The longer the club the more droop in the shaft. It's quite a bit more significant than you'd think, especially with longer clubs. Can you hit a ball off a non level lie? Ball above your feet is equivalent of right armextremely upright lie angle. Opposite for below your feet.
[/quote]I thnk I can and I would say that keeping that shaft on its proper shaft plane takes alot more right arm bend than people think me included It feels like looping under for me but when I look at the video it is right on plane m y wedges are my biggest concern of coming over the top because of the fact they are shorter and more upright I really have to feel that arm bend under to get it on plane
[/quote]

And I'd say that's a feel for YOU. The average guy who tries to keep right arm bent is going to spin shoulders too open and wipe across it. Good players will get arms way behind them. If pivot is working correctly you can't straighten right arm too fast.

My point on uneven lie Is that lie angle over rated for anything but ball flight fitting. Anytime ground isn't perfectly level your lie angle is now wrong. How often when playing do you hit from perfectly level lies?

99% of amatuers keep the right arm bent too long. And it will make more OTT not less and require stalling shoulders later in downswing
[/quote]

Dan do you think there should be an active participation of the right arm on the downswing?

[iteachgolf]

Yes. 100%. It's not inert. Its not hanging limp. It's participating during the downswing. Now once this becomes subconscious a person may not feel it as much as they focus elsewhere.

[Qegurezi]

Thanks Dan, keep up the great work.

[mikah]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1419449231' post='10638205']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419432739' post='10637003']
Russ if elbow is staying the same flex and we are rotating the hands are moving faster than the elbow. This is exactly why I wrote the definition the way I did. If right arm stays the same flex, which it does for maybe 0.05 seconds, it's moving at the same RATE, not speed. The hands will be moving in a bigger circle than the elbow covering a greater distance over the same period of time. You know moving faster. This isn't getting into the fact that as soon as the right arm arm begins rotating internally the hands move at a drastically faster rate than the elbow. You better hope your right shoulder isn't externally rotating the entire downswing. You could move the elbow at a faster rate for a very short period of time but right arm would increase in bend significantly.
[/quote]
If there is no rotation of the shoulder or extension of the lower arm ,the distance traveled by the right elbow will be the same as the hands.When a golfer rotates his right shoulder externally ,the right elbow will rotate a greater distance than the hands,NOT the other way around.That is the entire point of Kelvin's video.However if the right shoulder rotates internally the hands will move more than the right elbow.I am NOT even remotely suggesting that you teach internal rotation in TRANSITION;i am only describing the type of shoulder rotation resulting in the hands moving faster than the right elbow at this stage of the swing.

As the downswing progresses,the right arm straightens and the hands do speed up relative to the right elbow.Going down the right shoulder moves toward internal rotation,but never becomes internally rotated (at least in Mr Hogan's swing) until after impact.Meanwhile, contrary to a recently made video ,the left shoulder remains in internal rotation thru impact.

It might be good idea for you to post a video showing exactly what 45 degrees or 30 degrees of right arm bend looks like in the lower downswing and at impact
[/quote]


Good point Russ. Thanks for contributing.

Its a choice, not an argument.

First move from the top of the swing can be to straighten the right arm OR the first move from the top of the swing can be the lower body.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0&list=PLFF4DA3322C5692DA"]https://www.youtube....F4DA3322C5692DA[/url]


yeah.. keep up the great work!

[iteachgolf]

Nobody said the lower body isn't moving first. It does and does so naturally due to momentum. Just saying the intent should be to straighten the right arm as fast as possible.

You're arguing something nobody is saying.

Fact is the arms start moving faster than the hips and shoulders virtually immediately starting the downswing in a correctly sequenced swing.

[iteachgolf]

For those watching.

 

The hips move the shortest distance and the slowest on the backswing. The shoulders move faster, arms faster than shoulders and club the fastest. The shoulders are moving nearly twice the distance and twice the speed as the hips. So guess what? They have more momentum to overcome in transition to change direction. So as a result of momentum the hips start down first, because it's the easiest for them to do so, then the shoulders, arms and club. But almost immediately the shoulders, arms, and club not only catch up but begin moving exponentially faster than the hips.

 

The first move down will be the hips and club will be last. The key is understanding is why. And it's because of momentum and the hips have the least resistance. Everyone's hips fire first. Have yet to see anyone's who doesn't.

 

 

Almost forgot. Here you go Mikah

 

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419513168' post='10640309']
Yes. 100%. It's not inert. Its not hanging limp. It's participating during the downswing. Now once this becomes subconscious a person may not feel it as much as they focus elsewhere.
[/quote]

In which general direction would you suggest to straighten the right arm?
In the direction of the ball?
In the direction of the right pocket or somewhere else?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1419518146' post='10640473']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419513168' post='10640309']
Yes. 100%. It's not inert. Its not hanging limp. It's participating during the downswing. Now once this becomes subconscious a person may not feel it as much as they focus elsewhere.
[/quote]

In which general direction would you suggest to straighten the right arm?
In the direction of the ball?
In the direction of the right pocket or somewhere else?
[/quote]

The right arm straightens towards where the hands will be at impact. So out and past the ball towards the target. Just like if you're throwing the club into the ball and towards the target.

[Golf nerd]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419518344' post='10640475']


The right arm straightens towards where the hands will be at impact. So out and past the ball towards the target. Just like if you're throwing the club into the ball and towards the target.
[/quote]

Thanks for the answer.
I was interested in this, because the ASI promotes that the pivot is moving the arms back and forth, while the arms do up and down. To move the arms in the direction of the ball/target isn´t suggested by Jim. But maybe I haven´t understand it fully.

[TB07]

[quote name='Golf nerd' timestamp='1419518721' post='10640493']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1419518344' post='10640475']


The right arm straightens towards where the hands will be at impact. So out and past the ball towards the target. Just like if you're throwing the club into the ball and towards the target.
[/quote]

Thanks for the answer.
I was interested in this, because the ASI promotes that the pivot is moving the arms back and forth, while the arms do up and down. To move the arms in the direction of the ball/target isn´t suggested by Jim. But maybe I haven´t understand it fully.
[/quote]
See what Dan thinks here but if the arms move down and forward fast enough, and the pivot is moving correctly, that should at least assist in the out. Most just move arms down and not forward or out enough.