The Great Single Length Iron Experiment

[Kirasdad]

So...I watched the Masters. Particularly intrigued with this De Chambeau kid with the physics background, one plane swing, oddball clubs, and a copy of "The Golf Machine" in his bag. I love out of the box thinkers, especially in golf, which can be depressingly conformist. This is consistently proved to be true by the vitriol directed at anyone on the rest of Golfwrx, save this forum, that dares to challenge conventional wisdom with new ideas, and/or fresh thinking, including DeChambeau himself, who has been raked over the coals by many for being "cocky" or "goofy". Committing no crime except for the sin of being different. Thank goodness we are all a little different ourselves over here, or we wouldn't play hickory, or classic persimmon and blades. We also treat each other with class on this forum, but...that is grist for another thread.

 

So, I am intrigued, and start to research the single length concept. I got online and started reading every article I could find on the subject. Including Tommy Armour EQL clubs (and why they didn't work). Articles by Tom Wishon, Jaacob Bowden, Dave Edel, David Lake of One Iron golf, Barney Adams, Bryson DeChambeau, and a few others I can't remember now. All of them have SL irons experience and have written about the concept, especially in terms of how to make the clubs work effectively. I digested all this info, and decided to design a set for myself out of existing heads and shafts. Current SL product is either on a two month backlog or really expensive, or both. Plus, designing my own set would be fun, and since I would have a personal investment, I would be more likely to invest the time and energy needed to make the experiment work. So I was going to pick the heads, shafts, and grips, and designate the specs. I contracted the services of my friend, master club maker, club repairer/restorer, Hogan expert, and fellow Wrxer, Tim Vaughn aka Teevons, as the maker of the clubs.

 

The basic concept of SL clubs makes so much sense when you think about it. As Tim says "it's like every iron is your favorite one" Having the same stance, ball position, head weight, shaft flex, and obviously, length, takes variables out of the equation so that instead of having 14 (ok, 13, if you don't count the putter) set ups in a bag, you reduce this down to, in my case, five. Driver 43.75" 4 wood 42", 5 wood 40" 3 hybrid thru PW 36.5" and SW 35.5". I looked at many heads, hit a few things, bought sets at Play It Again Sports and returned them the next day for a refund (boy, do they think I am weird) all to narrow my options. I needed something that was forged, there is a lot of bending involved, have a low center of gravity since with SL irons specs call for a much shorter length than standard, one wants to make sure shot height is acceptable. Same with the shaft, a lighter weight shaft with a tip that is designed to get the ball in the air is desired.

 

Tom Wishon recommends a length of 36.5 to 37" for most people, and since I am 5' 8" standing as tall as I possibly can, I decided to go with 36.5, standard 8 iron length. Club head weight 275 grams, again standard 8 iron. Lie angle 62 degrees, a little flat, something I am used to with my regular clubs.

 

After three weeks of fiddling around I decided on the original Hogan Edge heads for the 5 thru 8, and a Hogan blade of some sort for the 9 and pitching wedge. This is not some Hogan thing with me. As we know there is much Hogan love on Wrx and our forum in particular, but that did not figure into this at all. They just happen to fit my needs well. The Edge cavity has a nice low center of gravity, are forged and easily bent, the cavity is a handy place to put the lead tape that was needed to get the 5-7 heads up to 275 grams, and the Apex shaft has a nice weight and bend profile for single length. Also, my club maker, Tim, has plenty of stock on hand of my clubs and shafts of choice so I wouldn't have to buy stuff randomly off the bay. I could buy them all from him.

 

So, all was set for the build. The biggest challenge in the putting together the set was, in my mind, the pitching wedge. To get the pw to 275 grams Tim was going to have to remove approximately 16 to 18 grams of weight somehow. This is why one needs a blade for the 9 and pw because it's much easier to take weight out of a blade than a cavity back. There are a number of ways to do this, but Tim came up with the idea of using a drill press to make holes in the back of the head, removing 1 plus grams of weight per hole. The 9, I thought would be pretty do-able, eight or nine holes and you're there, but the wedge...well, 18 holes, that's a lot of holes. This problem turned out to be a non event as Tim emailed me a picture of a wedge head from his collection, a Wilson Tour Blade Lightweight model from the 80's made during the featherweight fad at that time. This head weighed in at...you guessed it, 275 grams exactly and it was a taper tip head, which fits the apex shaft. I jumped all over this. No holes, no grinding, just shaft, grip, bending and done. It's also a cool looking head. The nine iron, a Hogan Redline was next. Tim drilled eight holes in the back of the iron head, which brought the weight down to 275 grams. The eight iron was good as is, and the 5-7 were lead taped to get them up to 275. (The 24 degree hybrid, which will take the place of the 3/4 iron is under construction.) The Apex # 4 shafts were installed. Tim went through his shaft collection to make sure the shafts were all tipped the same, the steps all lined up, which was a pain, but really added to the quality control aspect of getting the specs right. Tim and I then met at a course halfway between LA and Palm Springs where the clubs were hand delivered, and we played 18 holes. We didn't keep score as I tried out the clubs hitting several balls per hole, trying to get a feel for a very different way of playing.

 

Here are some of the things I noticed:

 

It takes some getting used to, having every iron the same and not changing set up or ball position on every shot. It's seems weird, but you HAVE to trust it.

 

It's easier to make solid contact.

 

It's easier to hit the ball straighter.

 

I was worried about hitting the ball too low with the mid irons, but as it turns out, I am hitting shots HIGHER than with a standard set.

 

I haven't had a chance to borrow a laser and see about my distances, but my impression after playing my initial round and several range seasons that they are SLIGHTLY shorter than my usual, in the mid irons, the 5 and 6, and

SLIGHTLY longer in the 9 iron and wedge.

 

The lofts are going to have be dialed in after a few weeks of playing and I get a specific sense of how far I fly them.

 

The fact that the PW is at 36.5", 1" over length from a standard wedge has not bothered me at all.

 

 

It very much remains to be seen if SL length clubs are going to work for me, or the golfing public, and whether this recent surge of interest will result in significant changes in iron design. Are SL clubs the next Eye 2 or the next square headed driver?

I plan to make further posts as to how I am adapting to these clubs and whether it helps my game or not. In the meantime, if you would want to try this for yourself, this is a bona fide way to go about it, if you are handy, and it's backed up by a lot of R and D from folks smarter than me.

 

So, thanks for reading. I have, quite possibly, set a Golfwrx record for verbosity, so I apologize for that, but as resident Golfwrx philosopher and wit Jonny Grouville once said "if you aren't interested in this, then I can't imagine who would be"

 

[scomac2002]

What a wonderful project! Thanks for taking the time to detail all that went into this. I especially am intrigued by the mix and match nature that was required to meet the engineering requirements.

 

Please keep us informed along the way of your single length journey. All the best of successes.

[oldschoolrocker]

Kdad,

Great post on a number of levels. Looking forward to following your theory to practice as it continues to sprout and bear fruit.

[gsea33]

thanks for the post and definitely keep us up dated.

[BIG STU]

Verrry interesting I was especially impressed on how you back yard redneck engineered it with different brand and style of clubs to get where you needed to be on weight etc. LOl those clubs are what us old timers call a "rack set" they were put together off the individual club rack. Nothing at all wrong with that I knew a lot of good players that played a put together set with no irons matching back in the day

[Blade Junkie]

That 9-iron looks great LOL. It's like PXG had hired Hogan designers instead of Ping ... :)

 

Interesting project and thanks for going into it in so much detail ! Looking forward to hearing about your progress with the set ...

[Kirasdad]

That 9-iron looks great LOL. It's like PXG had hired Hogan designers instead of Ping ... :)

 

 

 

That's funny Geoff, the first time I saw it, I thought the exact same thing. Tim said "Parsons is charging 4 grand a set for that!"

[TimV]

What are you doing for lofts? I'm curious as to how much "loft gap" you need to make this work.

[Blade Junkie]

That 9-iron looks great LOL. It's like PXG had hired Hogan designers instead of Ping ... :)

 

 

 

That's funny Geoff, the first time I saw it, I thought the exact same thing. Tim said "Parsons is charging 4 grand a set for that!"

 

Actually saw a set of the PXGs yesterday ... guy at my club has a set (in left hand !) .. £250 per iron apparently ... a cool £2,500 for the set ... :)

[Kirasdad]

As of now:

5 iron: 30 degrees

6 34

7 38

8 40 (this is the "stock" 8 which hasn't been adjusted yet)

9 46

PW 50

 

Tim is putting together the hybrid, which is a Hogan CTF 24 degree, when complete it will be shafted with a 4 flex Apex tipped at 8 iron spec at 36.5".

 

These lofts are just a place to begin, a guesstimate. We had to set them at something, and I thought it best to loft up a bit to start. The Wilson ultralight was standard at 50 degrees so we worked down from there, which worked out nicely since that made the 5 iron 30 degrees, which is two degrees up from it's stock loft. The biggest surprise for me has been how comfortably high I am hitting them on week one, and while I have no empirical proof yet, I feel like the 5 and 6 irons especially, are pretty close together in distance, maybe 155 6 iron, 160 5 iron, obviously too small a gap. Tom Wishon has stated that up to 15 yards between certain clubs is fine. His Sterling irons have 5 degree gaps between some clubs. So, despite my initial thinking on lofting up, it seems like I will take the 5 iron down a degree or two. We'll see when the hybrid gets here.

[TimV]

I guess I figured if all the clubs were the same length that the "loft gaps" would have to increase to compensate. I want 7 to 10 yards between clubs myself. I figure I could leave half of them at home otherwise. ;)

[Kirasdad]

Well I have long thought most people could take fewer clubs, walk, and play better golf in the bargain. I have been on a trackman before, outside, and discovered that my loft gaps at 4 degrees are just too tightly bunched, and that was before the SL idea took shape. I was hitting a 7 iron and a 6 iron six yards difference on a solid strike. My clubs are accurate in their lofts I check them from time to time, so that's not the issue. It's just that at 95 mph on my driver, I probably don't generate enough speed on my irons to make 4 degrees work especially in low to mid irons. On one's wedges 4 degrees is a good idea, but at the top of the set, a bigger gap is fine IMO. For instance a 18 degree 5 wood followed by a 24 degree hybrid, especially if the hybrid has a graphite shaft, is a workable gap, and it leaves room in the bag for a variety of wedges which amateurs need far more than a 3 iron. All this is if you are interested in score. If shotmaking is your thing, then we have a different conversation.

[jonnygrouville]

Brilliant. Huge doff of the virtual cap. Great work. Far more scientific than any of my experiments with shorter, longer and same length clubs, but still maintains an air of palaeolithic bodgery. Spot on.

 

[birly-shirly]

Great experiment.

 

I'm curious about the shafts. Did you use the original shafts for each head, trim and ream out the hosel - or did you raid Teevons stash of 8 iron shafts?

 

I also like the look of the 9 iron. But since this is WRX, I need to advise you to have those holes filled with titanium, or carbon fibre, or helium or something.

[teevons]

I went through all my loose Apex shafts and used a couple shafts off of stray Edge 8 irons I had. Was very hard to match the step pattern on the shafts even if they had apex 4 and off of an 8 iron they would be different.

Was very important to make sure shafts all had same step pattern for John to fit what he was after .

[Kirasdad]

Great experiment.

 

I'm curious about the shafts. Did you use the original shafts for each head, trim and ream out the hosel - or did you raid Teevons stash of 8 iron shafts?

 

I also like the look of the 9 iron. But since this is WRX, I need to advise you to have those holes filled with titanium, or carbon fibre, or helium or something.

 

Oh yeah...helium would be good, that way I wouldn't even have to take the club out of the bag. It would just float out of the bag into my hand.

[ChaosTheory]

Good thread. I built my own too. At 37", and a mid-70s swing speed, I don't get the height I want out of the 5 iron. Otherwise it's all good as far as distance gaps and trajectories. For the 5 iron I am conducting a shootout between a 38" 5 iron and a 38.5" 5 hybrid. So far the iron is winning in terms of reliability. It's not as reliable as the one in the SL set, though.

 

I can't quote my lofts for certain, but IIRC they are:

25

29 6iron

34

39

43

47

52

 

Probably I should start with a 27* 5 iron instead of 25, and go down from there. I'd love to have a couple or three sets of heads to play around with.

[teevons]

Regarding shafts, Apex were used because John liked the trajectory he got with the Edge clubs with apex 4.

I would think it is an individual thing regarding shaft selection.

The key is they match regarding flex and length

No reason why you could not use different flex for 5 iron that gives you more height.

[Kirasdad]

Good thread. I built my own too. At 37", and a mid-70s swing speed, I don't get the height I want out of the 5 iron. Otherwise it's all good as far as distance gaps and trajectories. For the 5 iron I am conducting a shootout between a 38" 5 iron and a 38.5" 5 hybrid. So far the iron is winning in terms of reliability. It's not as reliable as the one in the SL set, though.

 

I can't quote my lofts for certain, but IIRC they are:

25

29 6iron

34

39

43

47

52

 

Probably I should start with a 27* 5 iron instead of 25, and go down from there. I'd love to have a couple or three sets of heads to play around with.

 

Well, Snow, you're on to something re: the heads. I think the head design is a major factor in SL clubs. My Edge heads in the mid irons really aid the trajectory, getting more air under the ball. I don't know what heads you used, but that is probably a bigger factor than shafts.

[ChaosTheory]

I used Wishon 752TC heads. Basic GI clubs. They hit fairly high in a normal set. On the short irons, I removed weight from the pad on the back sole. For the mid irons, I added tape at that same location. My purpose was to raise the COG of the short irons and lower it on the mids. I think it worked well. The shafts are DGSL. So they are supposed to be a low flight. I have not tried a different shaft for the 5 iron, but I will at some point.

[Juice__25]

Was there more on this topic? Just looking for an update.

[Kirasdad]

Well...I had made updates of a sort commenting on the experience in other threads but those would be hard to find so here goes.

 

The lofted clubs 8-pw were quite successful. I love the Wilson pitching wedge. The mid irons were too bunched. The 5,6,7 irons distance range was about 160-145. I had Tim make some changes. We fiddled around with shafts, tried graphite, but ultimately I got tired of screwing with it and moved on. The idea still intrigues me and I will probably go back to it someday. It's doable in some fashion I believe but requires a tremendous amount of tweaking and it's a project much more suited to someone who has serious club making skills and an outfitted shop. I have neither, just an overactive creativity gene. I pay Tim for his time/labor and I just wanted to put my dough towards other things.

 

In retrospect, I think the club head, not the shaft, is the key component in the design. If I were to go at this again, I would keep the Apex shaft and do a lot of head experimenting. Redlines, maybe, something that's known for getting a lot of air under the ball. Then you could go with a lower loft in the 5 iron for better distance gapping. I used Edge heads, cheap and available, but not the best choice, I think. Also the hybrids for 3 and 4 iron replacements don't work at all with the 8 iron length. You can make them shorter than standard hybrids which are more utility wood replacements than irons as the OEMs produce them, because those companies are all about distance. So 38.5 and 39 inches would work with some lead tape but as part of a SL set they don't work. They fly low and woefully short. The homemade set would be better suited sticking with 5-gap wedge.

 

Of course, now you can go buy a set of Cobras, like what De Chambeau has in his bag from the big box store, so if you have the scratch and want SL, that saves a lot of time and maybe even money in the long run. Experimenting can get expensive.

 

Maybe this summer, if I am in the mood...I will perhaps try again. Don't hold your breath though.

[HoldenCornfield]

It's an interesting experiment, and something I've considered as well. I have a decent workshop, selection of tools and goodness knows, clubs-a-plenty. I also have at least a rudimentary knowledge and ability. But one conclusion I've slowly come to after messing with (and messing up) a lot of clubs: the old masters might've known what they were doing.

 

This is something I probably wouldn't have admitted to 4-5 years ago. I guess you could say I was the Marketing Dept's favorite consumer: one who believed that everything newer was better.

 

Vintage golf clubs have been a total revelation for me. So much so that's its lead me to investigate some other long held consumer assumptions...which is another story, too long, and I don't want to derail this thread.

 

My last set of modern clubs before dipping my toes in the vintage market wasn't really an iron set at all, it was actually a set of hybrids 3 - GW... That's right, a 50* gap wedge/hybrid. After playing with these for a couple months I developed an infuriating case of the fats, chunking so many shots I could barely break 100.

 

Looking back now I believe it wasn't the clubs fault, it was more to do with the set makeup. They were too long, too light, and too upright for me. The vintage clubs -- shorter, flatter, and heavier -- suit me much better. So, oh yeah, set makeup -- which gets me back on thread:

 

The single length iron concept is interesting but ultimately, its never going to be a holistic solution. You're always going to need woods that are significantly longer and wedges that are significantly shorter, which defeats the whole purpose of single length clubs. As Kirasdad's experiment seems to indicate, there's a point of diminishing returns at each end of these sets.

 

So, at best, its still only a partial solution. One still has to make the shot-to-shot adjustment from 43" driver to 37" iron to 35.5" but-choked-up-shorter-than-that wedge shot.

 

 

Some of Tom Wishon's rules-of-thumb for set makeup mesh pretty well with the standard vintage set: 43" driver and no irons longer than 38" or steeper than 24* of loft, which is a standard vintage 3 iron.

 

It turns out, at least for me, the most elegant solution to set makeup is the one that's been around at least since the 1950's:

 

four woods (1-2-3-4)

no longer than 43" and

graduated in 3* increments (10.5, 13, 16, 19) and

half inch decrements;

 

ten irons (2-9, pw, sw)

no longer than 38.5" and

graduated in 1/2" decrements to 35" (9 iron and wedges same length) and

4* increments from 20*-56* and

1 degree lie increments.

 

Add a putter and you now have 15 clubs in the bag -- which in the 1950's rule book means you still have room for one more!

[Juice__25]

Thanks for the update. Everything you said makes perfect sense and it seems the same issues always arise with single length.

 

I'm also hoping to try this one day with some vintage clubs, but I definitely have to think about which iron set or combination of iron sets to use to get the look, distance, and trajectory I'm looking for. I want to get a Wishon SL set first and experiment with that before I start tinkering.

 

Holden, you're spot on with your elegant solution. And I feel not enough people carry a 2 Wood anymore.

[scomac2002]

 

Vintage golf clubs have been a total revelation for me. So much so that's its lead me to investigate some other long held consumer assumptions...which is another story, too long, and I don't want to derail this thread.

 

 

I would love to discuss this further in a separate topic under Random Conversations or perhaps over at the Clubhouse Grille on the 19th Hole sub forum.