Coaches Camp: An Indication of the Direction Golf Instruction is Moving?

[airjammer]

I am unsure why people in the golf industry are appalled by having this type of a seminar, it is common in several industries. Motivational speakers, technical analysts, professional development, and skill building seminars are all common

 

Some people that are established within their field still attend these type events to continue to learn and try to expand their informational base

 

Also these aren't the only three guys that go around and host these type events in golf instruction, they just call it coach camp

 

Hardy, Haney, Butch, Foley, etc, etc all do something similar

That's all good and fine but it's not addressing the question the OP has posed. Are these seminars going to be the future of golf instruction? A previous poster has said he attended one of these seminars that cost him $1000 and it was a total waste of time. These coaches camps might be good for instructors wanting to expand their informational base but how are they useful for students?

 

Martin chuck has been one of the coaches in these coach camps more than once. If he is applying this information to his own swing, I don't think it's working. Martin use to have a great swing, now is driver swing looks atrocious. It looks like someone who started to spin his hips open at the top without having the other pieces in place to do that and not get stuck. Who knows he might have gotten injured. I'm not saying to put him down because I have "talked" to him several times over the years about various topics and he was always a awesome guy to me. More of trying say that his swing has deteriorated about the same time I noticed all of these Coach camps being advertised.

[PowderedToastMan]

All that matters I guess is that they are offering a service and people are paying for it. In terms of economics, I suppose that means it has worth. Instructors coming together can be a great thing, so long as the discussion is open and not dominated by one person's ideas.

[whatshannenin]

I am unsure why people in the golf industry are appalled by having this type of a seminar, it is common in several industries. Motivational speakers, technical analysts, professional development, and skill building seminars are all common

 

Some people that are established within their field still attend these type events to continue to learn and try to expand their informational base

 

Also these aren't the only three guys that go around and host these type events in golf instruction, they just call it coach camp

 

Hardy, Haney, Butch, Foley, etc, etc all do something similar

That's all good and fine but it's not addressing the question the OP has posed. Are these seminars going to be the future of golf instruction? A previous poster has said he attended one of these seminars that cost him $1000 and it was a total waste of time. These coaches camps might be good for instructors wanting to expand their informational base but how are they useful for students?

 

Martin chuck has been one of the coaches in these coach camps more than once. If he is applying this information to his own swing, I don't think it's working. Martin use to have a great swing, now is driver swing looks atrocious. It looks like someone who started to spin his hips open at the top without having the other pieces in place to do that and not get stuck. Who knows he might have gotten injured. I'm not saying to put him down because I have "talked" to him several times over the years about various topics and he was always a awesome guy to me. More of trying say that his swing has deteriorated about the same time I noticed all of these Coach camps being advertised.

 

Funny you mention that.....Jordan Speith's swing started to deteriorate about the same time McCormick started winning awards and attending seminars like this.....so there is the spin to this that maybe these are a bad thing because the information isn't as universally acceptable as some of the "coaches" make it seem?

[asterisk]

I am unsure why people in the golf industry are appalled by having this type of a seminar, it is common in several industries. Motivational speakers, technical analysts, professional development, and skill building seminars are all common

 

Some people that are established within their field still attend these type events to continue to learn and try to expand their informational base

 

Also these aren't the only three guys that go around and host these type events in golf instruction, they just call it coach camp

 

Hardy, Haney, Butch, Foley, etc, etc all do something similar

That's all good and fine but it's not addressing the question the OP has posed. Are these seminars going to be the future of golf instruction? A previous poster has said he attended one of these seminars that cost him $1000 and it was a total waste of time. These coaches camps might be good for instructors wanting to expand their informational base but how are they useful for students?

It's not complicated. The idea is that the coaches are learning at these seminars and the good knowledge is passed on to them.

 

I personally don't believe in Mayo's method. That's personal preference. I think there's more to golf than a push draw and talking about pronation. I literally have no idea how these guys got together for this seminar. They don't exactly have similar methods.

 

I would disagree with your last statement. They all have transitioned in a similar direction from what I've seen....I'm more curious as to what atendees are trying to accomplish. It's more or less a clinic of "Hey look what I learned from someone else...." such as Mackenzie, Kwon, Nesbit, Mac....what merit do Rice and Mayo have other than huge social media followings? If someone wants to learn the information they are presenting, what makes learning it from them, rather than the source of the information, better?

 

 

The info from the scientists gets filtered through the instructors to pass on to their students in lessons but most of the instructors don't relay the scientific jargon to their students. Most golfers wouldn't want to know the scientific findings and wouldn't know what to do with the info anyways.... thus the instructors job is to take that info and use it in a way that benefits his students without filling their heads with things they don't need to know, only giving them what they need!

[asterisk]

I don't see the big deal about coaches camps. If they help coaches get better and in return help them teach better it's all good!

 

No matter what there's going to be great instructors and at the other side of the spectrum not so great instructors ...sorta just like golfers!

[Jacob Mac]

I am unsure why people in the golf industry are appalled by having this type of a seminar, it is common in several industries. Motivational speakers, technical analysts, professional development, and skill building seminars are all common

 

Some people that are established within their field still attend these type events to continue to learn and try to expand their informational base

 

Also these aren't the only three guys that go around and host these type events in golf instruction, they just call it coach camp

 

Hardy, Haney, Butch, Foley, etc, etc all do something similar

That's all good and fine but it's not addressing the question the OP has posed. Are these seminars going to be the future of golf instruction? A previous poster has said he attended one of these seminars that cost him $1000 and it was a total waste of time. These coaches camps might be good for instructors wanting to expand their informational base but how are they useful for students?

It's not complicated. The idea is that the coaches are learning at these seminars and the good knowledge is passed on to them.

 

I personally don't believe in Mayo's method. That's personal preference. I think there's more to golf than a push draw and talking about pronation. I literally have no idea how these guys got together for this seminar. They don't exactly have similar methods.

 

I would disagree with your last statement. They all have transitioned in a similar direction from what I've seen....I'm more curious as to what atendees are trying to accomplish. It's more or less a clinic of "Hey look what I learned from someone else...." such as Mackenzie, Kwon, Nesbit, Mac....what merit do Rice and Mayo have other than huge social media followings? If someone wants to learn the information they are presenting, what makes learning it from them, rather than the source of the information, better?

 

 

The info from the scientists gets filtered through the instructors to pass on to their students in lessons but most of the instructors don't relay the scientific jargon to their students. Most golfers wouldn't want to know the scientific findings and wouldn't know what to do with the info anyways.... thus the instructors job is to take that info and use it in a way that benefits his students without filling their heads with things they don't need to know, only giving them what they need!

 

I think he's asking if the filtered information is any good. Not if Spieth likes or doesn't like technical explanations. Maybe the entire premise is flawed.

[whatshannenin]

Exactly. This information has been "researched" for the most part by none of the presenters in the panel of this particular video.....so perhaps they are misunderstanding the information....maybe the information isn't as perfect as it's been researched? Is it even really about golf instruction anymore or just who can sound smarter at the next gathering, to then in turn get another affectionate head movement on the Twitter and such. I'm not sure...but I'm skeptical to say the least.

[asterisk]

Exactly. This information has been "researched" for the most part by none of the presenters in the panel of this particular video.....so perhaps they are misunderstanding the information....maybe the information isn't as perfect as it's been researched? Is it even really about golf instruction anymore or just who can sound smarter at the next gathering, to then in turn get another affectionate head movement on the Twitter and such. I'm not sure...but I'm skeptical to say the least.

 

 

You can say the same for every so called method out there you can call into question anything and everything ...that leaves you where?.... here looking for answers...lol!

[asterisk]

"I think he's asking if the filtered information is any good. Not if Spieth likes or doesn't like technical explanations."

 

 

Depends on who is doing the filtering. I wasn't commenting on J.S. likes or dislikes pretty sure I never mentioned Spieth. Post # 65 kinda makes that clear.

[redraider1685]

I am unsure why people in the golf industry are appalled by having this type of a seminar, it is common in several industries. Motivational speakers, technical analysts, professional development, and skill building seminars are all common

 

Some people that are established within their field still attend these type events to continue to learn and try to expand their informational base

 

Also these aren't the only three guys that go around and host these type events in golf instruction, they just call it coach camp

 

Hardy, Haney, Butch, Foley, etc, etc all do something similar

That's all good and fine but it's not addressing the question the OP has posed. Are these seminars going to be the future of golf instruction? A previous poster has said he attended one of these seminars that cost him $1000 and it was a total waste of time. These coaches camps might be good for instructors wanting to expand their informational base but how are they useful for students?

 

as to the question the OP posted, this is not a new occurrence, so no I doubt it is the "future of golf instruction" just a way for instructors to expand their horizons

 

I'm sure there are plenty of instructors that will get 0 out of the clinic, mostly due to the fact that they either do not prepare questions or participate fully, or they already know all of the information presented

 

no different than people that take lesson after lesson and never improve, you get out what you put in. If you fall in the second category, then you should organize your own event and make some $$$

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Some good food for thought here so far.

 

Still no real information about what exactly draws these panels together and what info they're sharing. I know Mayo and Jeff Smith ( who is in the next camp) regularly do these mini clinic-type events in which they actively market to other instructors to 'shadow' them while they coach. A huge part of the business model is marketing to instructors aside from students so obviously they think they've got a superior method.

 

So what is it?

 

This hand path force vector talk.....

Is it really just all about wrist conditions and shoulder rotation....

or is it just that given their social media celebrity status those enamored by Twitter followers just assume they're actually holding valuable info? Like others have said, how do we know that regirgitating scientific research actually equates to good coaching and better play?

[Fort Worth Pro]

I am unsure why people in the golf industry are appalled by having this type of a seminar, it is common in several industries. Motivational speakers, technical analysts, professional development, and skill building seminars are all common

 

Some people that are established within their field still attend these type events to continue to learn and try to expand their informational base

 

Also these aren't the only three guys that go around and host these type events in golf instruction, they just call it coach camp

 

Hardy, Haney, Butch, Foley, etc, etc all do something similar

That's all good and fine but it's not addressing the question the OP has posed. Are these seminars going to be the future of golf instruction? A previous poster has said he attended one of these seminars that cost him $1000 and it was a total waste of time. These coaches camps might be good for instructors wanting to expand their informational base but how are they useful for students?

 

Martin chuck has been one of the coaches in these coach camps more than once. If he is applying this information to his own swing, I don't think it's working. Martin use to have a great swing, now is driver swing looks atrocious. It looks like someone who started to spin his hips open at the top without having the other pieces in place to do that and not get stuck. Who knows he might have gotten injured. I'm not saying to put him down because I have "talked" to him several times over the years about various topics and he was always a awesome guy to me. More of trying say that his swing has deteriorated about the same time I noticed all of these Coach camps being advertised.

 

Funny you mention that.....Jordan Speith's swing started to deteriorate about the same time McCormick started winning awards and attending seminars like this.....so there is the spin to this that maybe these are a bad thing because the information isn't as universally acceptable as some of the "coaches" make it seem?

what seminars is cam attending? What swing changes do you think he and Jordan are making?

[whatshannenin]

FWP, no idea what they are working on. Just drawing a conclusion based on McCormick winning teacher of the year and the exposure to all the summits and seminars that comes with that....after all these functions are a learning experience for all?

[MeikoKaji]

From what I understand of the Seickman one, it is for teaching pros but they have 1 or 2 guinea pigs to work on. He not only went thru his technique but had a variety of wedges and bounces and helped zero in on what is best for the local grasses and bunkers.

 

Anyway, the pros I talked to said it was very helpful and changed their view on the short game and equipment.

[Fort Worth Pro]

FWP, no idea what they are working on. Just drawing a conclusion based on McCormick winning teacher of the year and the exposure to all the summits and seminars that comes with that....after all these functions are a learning experience for all?

 

Have you seen Cam at any of these? I haven't. I have seen him as speaker at a few conferences but not any of the ones you guys are railing against.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

I'm confused. Was the Maestro or wasn't he a pro beach volleyball player?

 

I'm even more confused....

 

 

 

 

 

Wait a minute.....so Mayo actually took lessons from Dahlquist in '09 as a 'beginner'? But just presented on a panel with Dahlquist claiming he had been a teaching professional since the 90s? Thats bizarre....

 

 

It would appear so....but surely a room filled with those destined for scholarly accuracy in golf instruction would be able to decipher a fraud or breach of ethical conduct, no? Or could it be that golf instruction is full of unethical charades?

 

Perhaps a misrepresentation in the past is not as important to those in the know as what he knows now.

 

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In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!

[PutterKilledTheDream]

FWP, no idea what they are working on. Just drawing a conclusion based on McCormick winning teacher of the year and the exposure to all the summits and seminars that comes with that....after all these functions are a learning experience for all?

 

Have you seen Cam at any of these? I haven't. I have seen him as speaker at a few conferences but not any of the ones you guys are railing against.

Have you been to these conferences were railing against? If so, what was the take away?

[Arafel]

 

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!

 

That's not fair, he has two eyes.

[Fort Worth Pro]

FWP, no idea what they are working on. Just drawing a conclusion based on McCormick winning teacher of the year and the exposure to all the summits and seminars that comes with that....after all these functions are a learning experience for all?

 

Have you seen Cam at any of these? I haven't. I have seen him as speaker at a few conferences but not any of the ones you guys are railing against.

Have you been to these conferences were railing against? If so, what was the take away?

 

Haven't been. Attended sasho and cheetham's forces and motion because the facility I work at hosted it.

[jut111]

So whats the beef here? Just about every industry has some form of conference/seminar/continuing ed component to it, why should golf instruction be any different?

 

Not so sure I'd pay to attend one with an intent at improving my game but I don't see the harm.

[Donny Ross]

So whats the beef here? Just about every industry has some form of conference/seminar/continuing ed component to it, why should golf instruction be any different?

 

Not so sure I'd pay to attend one with an intent at improving my game but I don't see the harm.

 

 

I agree. Not sure why all the animosity and venom. Whatever they're doing they're making some money at it and a reasonable deduction is they're helping people get better, either as instructors or students.

 

No wonder I haven't been on here in awhile.

[TB07]

Some good food for thought here so far.

 

Still no real information about what exactly draws these panels together and what info they're sharing. I know Mayo and Jeff Smith ( who is in the next camp) regularly do these mini clinic-type events in which they actively market to other instructors to 'shadow' them while they coach. A huge part of the business model is marketing to instructors aside from students so obviously they think they've got a superior method.

 

So what is it?

 

This hand path force vector talk.....

Is it really just all about wrist conditions and shoulder rotation....

or is it just that given their social media celebrity status those enamored by Twitter followers just assume they're actually holding valuable info? Like others have said, how do we know that regirgitating scientific research actually equates to good coaching and better play?

 

Seems to me it's about coaching. Watching them give lessons and what they look for how they fix things, how to build clients etc. Doesn't seem like there is a specific method.

[northgolf]

My confidence level in the "science" being taught at these camps being soundly scientific is not what anyone I know would call higher than the belly of a newt. So put me in the questioning camp.

[PowderedToastMan]

So whats the beef here? Just about every industry has some form of conference/seminar/continuing ed component to it, why should golf instruction be any different?

 

Not so sure I'd pay to attend one with an intent at improving my game but I don't see the harm.

 

 

I agree. Not sure why all the animosity and venom. Whatever they're doing they're making some money at it and a reasonable deduction is they're helping people get better, either as instructors or students.

 

No wonder I haven't been on here in awhile.

The majority here understand and appreciate the format. Where the "animosity" lies is in the instruction and that it's presented as scientific. I can do a 3D scan of my morning BM, but I'm not going to start giving colorectal seminars (actually, maybe I should. Anyone have any experience to add? If you are a physician specializing in the gastrointestinal field, I want to use your name but I'll talk 99% of the time).

[dap]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

[asterisk]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

 

 

Ridiculous analogy! You wanna talk about guessing what do ya think of 2d eyeballin from blurry pics and using protractors on 2d pics etc. etc., ...ya there wasn't any guessing or experimenting in years past.LMAO! Spine engine theories, TGM, Right side swing , Left side swing, Drive hold, Natural golf, etc. etc. the list of guessing from the past is endless as are the experiments ...some even in the desert with no results posted...hmmmm?

[dap]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

 

 

Ridiculous analogy! You wanna talk about guessing what do ya think of 2d eyeballin from blurry pics and using protractors on 2d pics etc. etc., ...ya there wasn't any guessing or experimenting in years past.LMAO!

The analogy is not that ridiculous but yes, guessing has always been part of golf instruction. Now, they just have fancier tools for it.

 

Is there a university for golf science? All I see are some instructors buying or getting access to Trackmans and 3D equipment and then coming up with their own theories on the golf swing. Even the ones who have PhD scientists in their corners can't agree on how the golf swing ticks.

[northgolf]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

 

 

Ridiculous analogy! You wanna talk about guessing what do ya think of 2d eyeballin from blurry pics and using protractors on 2d pics etc. etc., ...ya there wasn't any guessing or experimenting in years past.LMAO! Spine engine theories, TGM, Right side swing , Left side swing, Drive hold, Natural golf, etc. etc. the list of guessing from the past is endless as are the experiments ...some even in the desert with no results posted...hmmmm?

 

I've measured it and I am wrong with four decimal places of accuracy.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

Could you please elaborate more on these "feuding science camps".

[mikpga]

It's about mentoring, coaching, sharing information, debating, iron sharpening iron, everyone benefits!

 

Social media has been an incredible tool for those in the "golf instruction industry"! Those who are confident in what they're teaching and learning are finally being smart and profiting from their expertise! A lot of these individuals have been very gracious with their time and expertise and sharing on social media at no charge.

 

I'm looking forward to spending the weekend with Joseph, Grant, Brian, and Jeff and some of my peers! It's a great opportunity to ask questions, share, and learn for everybody. It's no different than when I spent a few days with Slicefixer down in Texarkana!

 

It's great stuff, and for those who want to improve their craft, I highly recommend it!