Coaches Camp: An Indication of the Direction Golf Instruction is Moving?

[Thoughtful Hacker]

For Balance, Rhythm, Tension, shot making, course management , etc. you need common sense. Without common sense you can not learn even algebra!

 

 

 

Nah there's millions of golfers with common sense and they can't play worth a lick!

 

You need to develop your "golf" common sense and feel not just tech knowledge. The average golfer's handicap hasn't improved for decades in spite of huge improvement in balls, shoes, golf cubs, and instructional technologies.

[glk]

For Balance, Rhythm, Tension, shot making, course management , etc. you need common sense. Without common sense you can not learn even algebra!

 

 

 

Nah there's millions of golfers with common sense and they can't play worth a lick!

 

You need to develop your "golf" common sense and feel not just tech knowledge. The average golfer's handicap hasn't improved for decades in spite of huge improvement in balls, shoes, golf cubs, and instructional technologies.

Avg men's usga cap has gone down 2 strokes since early nineties and continues it's slow downward trend. Women 3.

 

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/comparing-your-handicap-index

[iteachgolf]

My position is that sharing info and peers learning from each other is great and not really the underlining issue here.

 

Those of us who aren't naive, bright-eyed, kool-aid drinkers realize that this scientific research applied golf instruction tailored AT other instructions is a marketing play more than anything else. It's about getting public head bowing motion displays of affection in efforts to increase market share and sound enlightened. And it's working lol..... but no one will actually get better imo.

 

What a lousy way to go through life, jeez.

 

Respect the man in the arena, at the very least.

 

And this "marketing play" is making Mayo bank, thousands of dollars alone off his last 2 vimeo videos. Somebody's getting better, the numbers (and his wallet) prove it.

 

And again, no dog in this fight, don't even know him or the others, BUT to belittle their success and the investments they've made to better understand or at the least measure what's going on in the golf swing doesn't put you in a good light.

 

If you don't know him, how is it you're so familiar with how much money he makes from his videos?

 

Vimeo

# of views x purchase cost = gross revenue

 

Not sure on production costs but are prob minimal

 

People watch videos multiple times and some many times. Number of views is not close to an accurate way to tell how many people actually purchased videos. You certainly can't count every view as a unique purchase.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

PKTD - so what is your vision of golf instruction? Honestly curious not trying to call you out. I just don't get what seems to me an anti-progress stance.

 

I mean do you propose we all just go back to digging it out of the dirt? Is using video a bad idea? Where is the line?

 

Now yes, i'm sure their are charlatans who use new technology and "science" for their personal benefit and financial gain. But that's the price of progress. at some point it comes down to the end user - the customer to make that determination and act accordingly.

 

If as a species we didn't push the envelope of science and progress, we'd still be living in caves.

In the nature of the holidays, a poem:

 

" I once had a man thrice wide as he tall.....

Desperate, he desired negative spin axis on hith ball....

He calleth me seeking my magic orange box....

Swingth ye rightward, a face half thout path were the talks

And +5 to thout stars be thy upward attack....

On thout Twitter the Maestro proclaimed this as fact...

 

" I connected thout man to my magic device....

And to my shagrin hith results were not nice...

-20, -8. +2 now +4...

I could not bareth what more was in store...

He chaseth and chaseth ball not in the air...

He lashth and lunged like an unfolded lawn chair...

 

"Hith numbers progressed nicely for the radar said so....

Yet he lookth quite peculiar up on his tippy toes ...

Extended hith handle stood upright and proud....

I've corrected my numbers he exclaimed very loud....

Data confirmth, he was fixed, all right with the world....

But his ballflight could do nothing more but killith a squirrel..."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[slprince67]

PKTD - so what is your vision of golf instruction? Honestly curious not trying to call you out. I just don't get what seems to me an anti-progress stance.

 

I mean do you propose we all just go back to digging it out of the dirt? Is using video a bad idea? Where is the line?

 

Now yes, i'm sure their are charlatans who use new technology and "science" for their personal benefit and financial gain. But that's the price of progress. at some point it comes down to the end user - the customer to make that determination and act accordingly.

 

If as a species we didn't push the envelope of science and progress, we'd still be living in caves.

In the nature of the holidays, a poem:

 

" I once had a man thrice wide as he tall.....

Desperate, he desired negative spin axis on hith ball....

He calleth me seeking my magic orange box....

Swingth ye rightward, a face half thout path were the talks

And +5 to thout stars be thy upward attack....

On thout Twitter the Maestro proclaimed this as fact...

 

" I connected thout man to my magic device....

And to my shagrin hith results were not nice...

-20, -8. +2 now +4...

I could not bareth what more was in store...

He chaseth and chaseth ball not in the air...

He lashth and lunged like an unfolded lawn chair...

 

"Hith numbers progressed nicely for the radar said so....

Yet he lookth quite peculiar up on his tippy toes ...

Extended hith handle stood upright and proud....

I've corrected my numbers he exclaimed very loud....

Data confirmth, he was fixed, all right with the world....

But his ballflight could do nothing more but killith a squirrel..."

 

ha ha ha ......that was great!

[jut111]

Didn't come close to answering my question but I lol'ed. Haha. Happy new year all

[Thoughtful Hacker]

For Balance, Rhythm, Tension, shot making, course management , etc. you need common sense. Without common sense you can not learn even algebra!

 

 

 

Nah there's millions of golfers with common sense and they can't play worth a lick!

 

You need to develop your "golf" common sense and feel not just tech knowledge. The average golfer's handicap hasn't improved for decades in spite of huge improvement in balls, shoes, golf cubs, and instructional technologies.

Avg men's usga cap has gone down 2 strokes since early nineties and continues it's slow downward trend. Women 3.

 

http://www.golfdiges...-handicap-index

 

Thanks. This might be the result of the game improvement clubs and other none instructional factors. Also less than 10% of golfers have handicap index. How about the other 90 plus % hackers? The average today's hacker can't break 90 if he follows all USGA rules.

[jut111]

And if IRC less then 20 percent of golfers take lessons...

[whatshannenin]

People benefit from scientific discoveries in all aspects of their lives all the time, why should golf be any different?

 

Holy Smokes! I forgot we are the culmination of this scientific quest, golfing fans are now just left patiently waiting for Brian Gay to open up dynamically and flex his lead wrist like a young child on Christmas morning. What if we don't have our ticket for the train or a hole in our nightgown?! Most the Twitter clowns lead us to believe "Every time a golfer flexes his lead wrist an angel gets his wings"

[RBImGuy]

Good for them, it's just a little conference, pretty small and I think had the same 4 instructors each time. Not sure they are the best in the insdustry by any means.

 

These guys are great instructors. Who would you recommend to be there?

 

they are good but can't really say who's best in industry.

 

I am the best in the industry if your a tour pro that is.

[Donny Ross]

My position is that sharing info and peers learning from each other is great and not really the underlining issue here.

 

Those of us who aren't naive, bright-eyed, kool-aid drinkers realize that this scientific research applied golf instruction tailored AT other instructions is a marketing play more than anything else. It's about getting public head bowing motion displays of affection in efforts to increase market share and sound enlightened. And it's working lol..... but no one will actually get better imo.

 

What a lousy way to go through life, jeez.

 

Respect the man in the arena, at the very least.

 

And this "marketing play" is making Mayo bank, thousands of dollars alone off his last 2 vimeo videos. Somebody's getting better, the numbers (and his wallet) prove it.

 

And again, no dog in this fight, don't even know him or the others, BUT to belittle their success and the investments they've made to better understand or at the least measure what's going on in the golf swing doesn't put you in a good light.

 

If you don't know him, how is it you're so familiar with how much money he makes from his videos?

 

Vimeo

# of views x purchase cost = gross revenue

 

Not sure on production costs but are prob minimal

 

People watch videos multiple times and some many times. Number of views is not close to an accurate way to tell how many people actually purchased videos. You certainly can't count every view as a unique purchase.

 

 

People watch videos multiple times and some many times. Got it.

 

I bought one of the vids in the past, watched it again, count didn't go up. Fact is he can pump out a video and make thousands off it. His online video fee is $200, most can't demand that. Hell you're much cheaper, no?

[Ghost of Snead]

People watch videos multiple times and some many times. Got it.

 

I bought one of the vids in the past, watched it again, count didn't go up. Fact is he can pump out a video and make thousands off it. His online video fee is $200, most can't demand that. Hell you're much cheaper, no?

 

Maybe we should pitch in and buy an online lesson for a random Wrxer, and then let pros here analyze it so they can all learn from him. Same idea as Coach Camp but cheaper ...

[iteachgolf]

 

 

What a lousy way to go through life, jeez.

 

Respect the man in the arena, at the very least.

 

And this "marketing play" is making Mayo bank, thousands of dollars alone off his last 2 vimeo videos. Somebody's getting better, the numbers (and his wallet) prove it.

 

And again, no dog in this fight, don't even know him or the others, BUT to belittle their success and the investments they've made to better understand or at the least measure what's going on in the golf swing doesn't put you in a good light.

 

If you don't know him, how is it you're so familiar with how much money he makes from his videos?

 

Vimeo

# of views x purchase cost = gross revenue

 

Not sure on production costs but are prob minimal

 

People watch videos multiple times and some many times. Number of views is not close to an accurate way to tell how many people actually purchased videos. You certainly can't count every view as a unique purchase.

 

 

People watch videos multiple times and some many times. Got it.

 

I bought one of the vids in the past, watched it again, count didn't go up. Fact is he can pump out a video and make thousands off it. His online video fee is $200, most can't demand that. Hell you're much cheaper, no?

 

And my volume is exponentially higher. My shortgame video also made tens of thousands of dollars. What's your point?

[Donny Ross]

Well then you might want to brush up on your Eco 101 books.

 

You charge what the market will bear.

 

You charged me $39? His rate is $200.

 

Why the discrepancy? I know the answer, you don't have to swallow the hook.

 

My point is enjoy and learn from others successes, don't view it as, in your particular case, a threat..wreaks of narcissism for one.

[AlexCzervic]

Reality check.

 

[MK7Golf21]

Good for them, it's just a little conference, pretty small and I think had the same 4 instructors each time. Not sure they are the best in the insdustry by any means.

 

These guys are great instructors. Who would you recommend to be there?

 

they are good but can't really say who's best in industry.

 

I am the best in the industry if your a tour pro that is.

 

Keep looking in the mirror and telling by yourself that,

[iteachgolf]

Well then you might want to brush up on your Eco 101 books.

 

You charge what the market will bear.

 

You charged me $39? His rate is $200.

 

Why the discrepancy? I know the answer, you don't have to swallow the hook.

 

My point is enjoy and learn from others successes, don't view it as, in your particular case, a threat..wreaks of narcissism for one.

 

Where did I view it as a threat or even say anything bad about Joe? Please show me. All I said was video views isn't an accurate way of learning how many were sold. Just like website views isn't the same as unique visitors.

 

I know economics quite well. The market won't bear $200 which is why he doesn't do them at any real volume. At $200 he's basically saying I rather not do any of these. I did over 1,000 online lessons last year. I can promise you I had more revenue generated from online lessons than he did. And it's not a slight at all on Joe. He had more revenue from tour players and golf schools than I did I'm sure because I don't travel anywhere near as much and prefer to be home as much as possible. Proper pricing is when supply meets demand and I can promise you there is not high demand for online lessons at $200. It's a price that says I rather not do them but if I'm going to do them this is what you'll have to pay me.

 

PS Kia is WAY more profitable than Ferrari is. Just because someone will pay a high price for something doesn't mean it generates more revenue. Volume is HUGE is economics.

[Donny Ross]

You were questioning the Vimeo views and revenue derived from it. You could've let it go. You didn't.

 

1000 video lessons to gross $50k? No thanks. I'd at least experiment with raising the price. I'd rather stripe greens for $50k/year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

You were questioning the Vimeo views and revenue derived from it. You could've let it go. You didn't.

 

1000 video lessons to gross $50k? No thanks. I'd at least experiment with raising the price. I'd rather stripe greens for $50k/year.

 

 

You're the one that made this personal and claimed some absolute bs about me being negative towards Joe, which I said nothing negative about him whatsoever.

 

I do over 1,000 lessons a year and it takes roughly 60-90 minutes a day. So yes at roughly 10 hours a week I think it works out quite well. I don't feel chargining more than 1/3 my hourly rate would be fair since it takes me less than 20 minutes. I also teach players on virtually every major tour worldwide and give around 2,000 hours of lessons a year on top of those online lessons a year. I like volume, especially for longevity in any business, the more clients you have the lower the risk and the less losing one or two will affect the bottom line. My economics are just fine

[asterisk]

People benefit from scientific discoveries in all aspects of their lives all the time, why should golf be any different?

 

Holy Smokes! I forgot we are the culmination of this scientific quest, golfing fans are now just left patiently waiting for Brian Gay to open up dynamically and flex his lead wrist like a young child on Christmas morning. What if we don't have our ticket for the train or a hole in our nightgown?! Most the Twitter clowns lead us to believe "Every time a golfer flexes his lead wrist an angel gets his wings"

 

 

Yeah you wouldn't even be able to post that drivel absence the science that allowed it.

[Donny Ross]

You were questioning the Vimeo views and revenue derived from it. You could've let it go. You didn't.

 

1000 video lessons to gross $50k? No thanks. I'd at least experiment with raising the price. I'd rather stripe greens for $50k/year.

 

 

You're the one that made this personal and claimed some absolute bs about me being negative towards Joe, which I said nothing negative about him whatsoever.

 

I do over 1,000 lessons a year and it takes roughly 60-90 minutes a day. So yes at roughly 10 hours a week I think it works out quite well. I don't feel chargining more than 1/3 my hourly rate would be fair since it takes me less than 20 minutes. I also teach players on virtually every major tour worldwide and give around 2,000 hours of lessons a year on top of those online lessons a year. I like volume, especially for longevity in any business, the more clients you have the lower the risk and the less losing one or two will affect the bottom line. My economics are just fine

 

 

I didn't make it personal. Get over yourself. I alluded to narcissism and it's being played out w each subsequent retort.

 

I don't need your resume. I've heard of you. Close the scrapbook.

 

Do you know who Paul Brown is? He was a famous football coach, had a great quote that has served many well throughout the years. Every time someone stands on a pedestal and beats their own chests I think of it.

 

Respect the man in the arena, that was my original post and point.

 

[iteachgolf]

You were questioning the Vimeo views and revenue derived from it. You could've let it go. You didn't.

 

1000 video lessons to gross $50k? No thanks. I'd at least experiment with raising the price. I'd rather stripe greens for $50k/year.

 

 

You're the one that made this personal and claimed some absolute bs about me being negative towards Joe, which I said nothing negative about him whatsoever.

 

I do over 1,000 lessons a year and it takes roughly 60-90 minutes a day. So yes at roughly 10 hours a week I think it works out quite well. I don't feel chargining more than 1/3 my hourly rate would be fair since it takes me less than 20 minutes. I also teach players on virtually every major tour worldwide and give around 2,000 hours of lessons a year on top of those online lessons a year. I like volume, especially for longevity in any business, the more clients you have the lower the risk and the less losing one or two will affect the bottom line. My economics are just fine

 

 

I didn't make it personal. Get over yourself. I alluded to narcissism and it's being played out w each subsequent retort.

 

I don't need your resume. I've heard of you. Close the scrapbook.

 

Do you know who Paul Brown is? He was a famous football coach, had a great quote that has served many well throughout the years. Every time someone stands on a pedestal and beats their own chests I think of it.

 

Respect the man in the arena, that was my original post and point.

 

Of course you did. Again I never said one negative thing about Joe. You first claimed I wash bashing Joe, complete lie. Then called me narcissistic for saying view and buys aren't that same thing. Then tried to claim I don't understand economics and looked foolish not understanding that revenue and price are not the same thing. You made this 100% personal when I said nothing negative about Joe or you. I wouldn't of brought up a single thing about me except that YOU are the one who called my resume and prices in to question. I was responding to YOU. I even said Joe made more revenue than me in certain areas and vice versa. We have different focuses and goals. He has done a great job creating a name for himself and is successful as a result. He's not a threat to me whatsoever in any way shape or form. We live on opposite sides of the country and have completely different business structure and target markets. What Joe does has zero impact on my bottom line whatsoever. I don't have an issue with him at all. Even though you try to make it seem otherwise with your fabricated ideas. Joe has recommended players come see me and invited me to Vegas tons of times.

[mystic]

the coach camp is a very cool venue with a solid line up for coaches to learn some information about the swing and the game they may not have heard before. I don't think validating the presenters background is necessary when the information presented is strong. that being said, teaching information and coaching players to perform isn't the same thing so take it as it is. You can watch surgery videos all day but actually cutting someone open is quite different. I like iTeach's philosophy on volume as his learned experience is the most valuable asset a coach can have.

[pinhigh27]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

Could you please elaborate more on these "feuding science camps".

Here is a quote from Jacobs.

 

"You can go to one of a 100 seminars and see a whole scientific explanation of a golf swing. After you think that you understood what was said, you attend another and not only is the scientific explanation different it also disproves the other. We are in an era that has an endless supply of information and a growing list of specialized experts. Who should we listen to?

 

The guy who fudges his results, refuses to share methods or compare to others, and bans everyone who disagrees with him is probably not the best person to listen to

[asterisk]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

Could you please elaborate more on these "feuding science camps".

Here is a quote from Jacobs.

 

"You can go to one of a 100 seminars and see a whole scientific explanation of a golf swing. After you think that you understood what was said, you attend another and not only is the scientific explanation different it also disproves the other. We are in an era that has an endless supply of information and a growing list of specialized experts. Who should we listen to?

 

The guy who fudges his results, refuses to share methods or compare to others, and bans everyone who disagrees with him is probably not the best person to listen to

 

 

Total b.s. show us his results that were " fudge" His stuff is out there to compare...geeeeezzz. Bans everyone who disagrees, sounds like most of the private forums/groups to me. Why do you think they are closed groups... they got tired of people like yourself...haters! Even Jeff Martin has one and he hates everyone...lol! What forums are dead zones nowadays ...quite a few ...why? answer.... they got tired of all the bickering and haters so they banned a lot of them and some said screw this and started closed groups..

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Didn't come close to answering my question but I lol'ed. Haha. Happy new year all

 

I thought I answered quite articulately?

 

My poem was a true story actually. I taught with Trackman years ago when the 'science' was still relatively early on. And pretty much everyone who came to see me was under the impression at the time that negative #s were the kiss of death. Even the tour players. Show a guy a - attack angle or path # and immediately they'd go into correction mode.

 

And I'll be the first to admit that initially I drank the kool-aid too. But that quickly changed once common sense told me that what 'science' said was 'optimal' in many cases was not functional. So where do you think I stood in those circles where everybody was promoting hitting up and push draws?

 

But.....notice how the hit up talk has fizzled?

 

Many of these same folks have now pivoted away from the absolutism rhetoric of Trackman and are now on to biomechanics..it's the next wave of 'science'. I see the same cycle of 'optimal' being peddled according to the science and although it may very well be true, having the wrist flexed and shaft flattening because of 'mechanical advantages' will mean chasing form over function.

 

I'm not against any of this research or tech either. I've used it. I like it. It's the application of promoting, and even worse marketing, 'optimal' that concerns me. These cycles are pretty predictable every time new science and tech and studies emerge.

 

I just call a spade a spade.

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

good post pktd, I'd agree. A lot of people who are quick to drink the kook aid and defend most of the time aren't very good players and are looking for the next magic move to improve their game. I've found solid fundamentals, the basic fundamental that they are bashing applied where I need it with lots of practice is what made me a better player not some scientific optimal set of movements.

[asterisk]

good post pktd, I'd agree. A lot of people who are quick to drink the kook aid and defend most of the time aren't very good players and are looking for the next magic move to improve their game. I've found solid fundamentals, the basic fundamental that they are bashing applied where I need it with lots of practice is what made me a better player not some scientific optimal set of movements.

 

 

Baloney! You must be talking about the Hogan fanatics, this is not about your fundamentals it's about finding out what the top players are doing and you for sure are not one of those because you are here and you ask all kinds of advice about the swing on this forum and take advice from complete strangers who are hacks like you. Complete joke!

[asterisk]

Didn't come close to answering my question but I lol'ed. Haha. Happy new year all

 

I thought I answered quite articulately?

 

My poem was a true story actually. I taught with Trackman years ago when the 'science' was still relatively early on. And pretty much everyone who came to see me was under the impression at the time that negative #s were the kiss of death. Even the tour players. Show a guy a - attack angle or path # and immediately they'd go into correction mode.

 

And I'll be the first to admit that initially I drank the kool-aid too. But that quickly changed once common sense told me that what 'science' said was 'optimal' in many cases was not functional. So where do you think I stood in those circles where everybody was promoting hitting up and push draws?

 

But.....notice how the hit up talk has fizzled?

 

Many of these same folks have now pivoted away from the absolutism rhetoric of Trackman and are now on to biomechanics..it's the next wave of 'science'. I see the same cycle of 'optimal' being peddled according to the science and although it may very well be true, having the wrist flexed and shaft flattening because of 'mechanical advantages' will mean chasing form over function.

 

I'm not against any of this research or tech either. I've used it. I like it. It's the application of promoting, and even worse marketing, 'optimal' that concerns me. These cycles are pretty predictable every time new science and tech and studies emerge.

 

I just call a spade a spade.

 

 

Just tell the truth you don't like Mayo it's that simple

[rteach1]

Golf science is still well in it's infancy. The analogy I see with golf instructors using science and fancy equipment to teach golf is akin to me buying a CT scanner and treating people with cancer. The tool for diagnosis might be great but the application of it will be be guessing and experimental. Give 2 instructors a Trackman and I would wager both would come up with different instructions for the same student. A fool with a tool is still a fool.

 

Right now there even appears to be two feuding science camps on what makes the golf swing tick.

 

Could you please elaborate more on these "feuding science camps".

Here is a quote from Jacobs.

 

"You can go to one of a 100 seminars and see a whole scientific explanation of a golf swing. After you think that you understood what was said, you attend another and not only is the scientific explanation different it also disproves the other. We are in an era that has an endless supply of information and a growing list of specialized experts. Who should we listen to?

 

The guy who fudges his results, refuses to share methods or compare to others, and bans everyone who disagrees with him is probably not the best person to listen to

 

You must be an expert on fudging results every time you look in a mirror. The other camp initially accused Jacobs of being inaccurate in a measurement regarding alpha torque. This other camp then had to retract their erroneous accusation when it was proven Jacobs was correct and they were wrong. For those of you unfamiliar with alpha torque or who is in each camp, that's not really the point. I personally don't care about torques, forces, moment arms, etc. But, I do care when people distort reality and are flat out wrong.

 

As for sharing methods, if you researched anything professionally with scientists in any field, would you just give away the most important equations, findings, etc? Have you never heard of patents or copyrights? Should Coke just give away its formula to Pepsi?

 

This is Jacobs' profession! Most of his findings are available in a book that he sells on Amazon. He and Brian Manzella also hold numerous seminars and workshops for instructors who wish to learn about their research. Should they just do this for free? I don't know what you do professionally, but I'm sure that you don't accept any payment for your services, right?

 

By the way, the group on facebook is not a forum. It is a closed group for those who want to learn what Jacobs and Manzella are teaching. It is purposely not a place where people such as yourself can try to "debate" their findings.

 

Unbelievable.