The Golfing Machine

[Xiphos]

Any lovers or haters, lets debate

I am a fan of The Golfing Machine, but I really do not know that much about it. I have started to read it and it makes sence, adleast the basic ideas of the book. I know that TGM people sound like they know the most when the talk, but that really means nothing. I do know that several of the best ball strikers ever are TGM people. Lets sound off, give your thoughts on TGM, bolth lover and haters.

[Asleep]

Lynn Blake Golf

[hayam]

The book basically explains everything about the golf swing , and how the ball is controlled by the clubhead, clubshaft, club direction. with nearly all the possible combinations. This book is complete and can applied to Any Swing..

 

BUT as stated in the book , GOLF mechanics is difficult, Short cut will equal to a longer route eventually.

 

Its very easy to misunderstand the book, but once the concept is well understood, there will be improvements, especially in the accuracy and power. If you cannot control the ball, you have a wrong understanding, thats how simple it is. Thus, this book is much better explained and demonstrated by an Authorised Instructor. Once a concept is understood, it will go like.. oh man its actually that simple.. I complicated it .. Opps

 

I personally had taken many disastrous wrong turns due to wrong understandings of the book, even I have an AI and a coach who helped me alot. He took 5 years to understand with alot of AI's help and its just over 1 year for me , constantly humbled by the proccess. This is how tough understanding the book and plenty of Incubating a concept. ITS a much easier route if you say, show me the motion and the feel and don't tell me more about it , after all, its how we know how to use the concept that is important.

 

my 2 cents and good luck.

[tbyeaton0627]

Its incredibly hard to argue with science...so hate it or love you better know what you talking about before you knock it

[BILL12x]

Ask Bobby Clampett how delving into the mechanics of the swing helped his game. :cheesy:

He could've been great, and probably would have been, but he got so into the science of swing mechanics that it totally screwed up his feel and his head.

[tbyeaton0627]

No...clampett left ben doyle then struggled with his swing...if you get the chance some day, ask him :cheesy: btw Clampett is an Authorized Instructor of THE GOLFING MACHINE at the DOCTORATE LEVEL

[Asleep]

No...clampett left ben doyle then struggled with his swing...if you get the chance some day, ask him :cheesy: btw Clampett is an Authorized Instructor of THE GOLFING MACHINE at the DOCTORATE LEVEL

 

Yep.

[BILL12x]

No...clampett left ben doyle then struggled with his swing...if you get the chance some day, ask him :cheesy: btw Clampett is an Authorized Instructor of THE GOLFING MACHINE at the DOCTORATE LEVEL

 

Yep.

 

There is no question about it. There are few people who understand the mechanics of the golf swing better than Bobby Clampett. That being said, It is this understanding that is what, IMHO, destroyed his game.

[tbyeaton0627]

No...clampett left ben doyle then struggled with his swing...if you get the chance some day, ask him :cheesy: btw Clampett is an Authorized Instructor of THE GOLFING MACHINE at the DOCTORATE LEVEL

 

Yep.

 

There is no question about it. There are few people who understand the mechanics of the golf swing better than Bobby Clampett. That being said, It is this understanding that is what, IMHO, destroyed his game.

 

 

If you ever talk to clampett about why he started playing poorly after such a great career he would be the first person to tell you it was because he left his longtime coach ben doyle. Clampett's game did not struggle solely on his golf swing, but plenty of other factors as well...if you ever see him hit balls theres not a more pure sound by ANY ballstriker...keep en eye on the Senior Tour :tongue:

[Swingtheclub]

You know I read a little a long time ago of the theory your talking about.

 

I also got to watch Bobby Clampett make his tour debut in the Quad Cities Open I actually met him talked to him and watched him practice a bit.

 

His leverage was amazing and he hit the ball a long way for a skinny little dude..

 

 

He was supposed to be the Tiger Woods of his day he just never quite got there. He almost won the Open championship one year and other than that he slipped into obscurity.

 

From what I understand more to be with his family than any other reason.

 

He still practices quite a bit and I expect to see him make a run at the Champions tour in a few years.

 

His swing always looked like a bunch of angles to me instead of a golf swing, now today when he talks about swings he only seems to break them down by mechanics. I guess what I am saying is there is no poetry in his method.

 

The golf swing is so much more than mechanics. Given a range and a bucket of balls I can prove it in five minutes.

[tbyeaton0627]

At 5'8" i tower over bobby...(he wouldnt admit to that) but hed spank me ballstriking any day...no compression leakage there

[SadTrombone]

Did y'all notice how Clampett seems in love with Tiger Woods? Wow...

 

 

......that is all.

 

-mini

[BILL12x]

No...clampett left ben doyle then struggled with his swing...if you get the chance some day, ask him :cheesy: btw Clampett is an Authorized Instructor of THE GOLFING MACHINE at the DOCTORATE LEVEL

 

Yep.

 

There is no question about it. There are few people who understand the mechanics of the golf swing better than Bobby Clampett. That being said, It is this understanding that is what, IMHO, destroyed his game.

 

 

If you ever talk to clampett about why he started playing poorly after such a great career he would be the first person to tell you it was because he left his longtime coach ben doyle. Clampett's game did not struggle solely on his golf swing, but plenty of other factors as well...if you ever see him hit balls theres not a more pure sound by ANY ballstriker...keep en eye on the Senior Tour :tongue:

And why did he leave his coach Ben Doyle?? Because Doyle did not agree with, or support his quest for perfect mechanics over feel and intuition.

 

You need both proper mechanics, to a degree, and feel.

 

The only thing that really matters is that you have perfect position at impact and, some would say, at the top. What happens in between does not matter. Ask Chi Chi or Furyk or Trevino or Palmer or Alan Doyle or many others with horrible swings that were perfect at impact. They all had feel that got them to the right position.

 

It's nice to have some insight into the mechanics so that you can make the proper corrections when things go wrong, but, IMHO, if you worry too much about the mechanics, you lose your feel which is worse, not to mention that thinking too much can be disasterous to your swing.

 

I was also a 225 average bowler and briefly considered going pro. It used to drive my wife nuts that I'd roll 279s and 300s and every balled rolled differently, different amounts of hook and spin, while she had great mechanics and averaged 190. The difference was feel. I could feel that my arm was swinging offline a bit and make the correction for the proper amount of lift and spin in the middle of my arm swing. It's no different in golf. I once tried to "fix" my mechanics in bowling and I couldn't break 200 for weeks until I went back to feel.

 

I won't make that same mistake in golf.

[tbyeaton0627]

I would agree with that to an extent but i wouldnt say this was clampetts downfall

[FlyFish]

Homer Kelley strongly advocated feel - TGM and feel aren't mutually exclusive.

 

To quote Homer - "Let mechanics produce and feel reproduce."

[Asleep]

...And why did he leave his coach Ben Doyle?? Because Doyle did not agree with, or support his quest for perfect mechanics over feel and intuition...

That's on Bobby, not Ben Doyle or TGM.

 

 

The Golfing Machine does not advocate a particular swing model, it identifies different swings (components) into classifications. Sort of a "if you do this, you'll need to do that."

 

TGM explained the geometry and the physics of the golf swing to me. It's a challenging read, but worth it.

[akanacl]

...And why did he leave his coach Ben Doyle?? Because Doyle did not agree with, or support his quest for perfect mechanics over feel and intuition...

That's on Bobby, not Ben Doyle or TGM.

 

 

The Golfing Machine does not advocate a particular swing model, it identifies different swings (components) into classifications. Sort of a "if you do this, you'll need to do that."

 

 

Well said Asleep. I don't have much experience with the finer details of the golf swing. But after struggling through the TGM book my impression was its more "observational" than "instructional".

[Swingtheclub]

Just a small comment on this feel versus mechanics thing.

 

Bad mechanics simply means adjustments have to be made to square the club at impact. Plus with superior mechanics I can increase swing speed some.

 

Basically I am saying that if I get the club square at the top of the back swing it makes it a hell of a lot easier for me to hit it straight than someone with poor mechanics that cant.

 

 

At the same time when I get to the first tee, Mechanics better be ingrained. The only swing thought I have ever seen work consistently is one for a steady rhythm. I do not even want a mechanical thought to cross my mind when I am playing.

 

At the same time as and instructor I can not teach you feel. I can only give you the right mechanics and approach. You have to dig the feel out of the dirt yourself. You want good feel practice a lot.

[kebeal]

If you want to know what happened to Clampett, read his book "impact zone". He talks about how he started to worry about how his swing looked and began to focus on style rather than impact dynamics, that is what led to his slump according to HIM. I never understood why people say the golfing machine ruined his career, he was taught using the golfing machine since he was a junior, why would something that helped him 8 years or more sunddenly ruin his game that doesn't make sense.

[Swingtheclub]

You need to remember Bobby never came close to the career that was expected of him even before the slump.

 

He was never a Super Star I mean in 15 years he won once.

[leekgolf]

Ask Bobby Clampett how delving into the mechanics of the swing helped his game. :cheesy:

He could've been great, and probably would have been, but he got so into the science of swing mechanics that it totally screwed up his feel and his head.

 

That is so totally inaccurate. Clampett learned from Ben Doyle, the first authorized instructor of TGM. Doyle's teaching got him to a point where he was one of the brightest young players on TOUR. People then told him he HAD to go to one of the recognized TOUR gurus- I think initials DL. They screwed him up. Clampett now talks about that and the huge mistake he made leaving Doyle.

 

As far as TGM goes, it is not a method or a system, It's a scientific study of the bio-mechanics of the golf swing. TGM allows for many variations in the swing and swing style. Clearly some posters only speak of what they've heard or think (Bill12x is a good example), but really don't know what TGM really means.

[tbyeaton0627]

Ask Bobby Clampett how delving into the mechanics of the swing helped his game. :cheesy:

He could've been great, and probably would have been, but he got so into the science of swing mechanics that it totally screwed up his feel and his head.

 

That is so totally inaccurate. Clampett learned from Ben Doyle, the first authorized instructor of TGM. Doyle's teaching got him to a point where he was one of the brightest young players on TOUR. People then told him he HAD to go to one of the recognized TOUR gurus- I think initials DL. They screwed him up. Clampett now talks about that and the huge mistake he made leaving Doyle.

 

As far as TGM goes, it is not a method or a system, It's a scientific study of the bio-mechanics of the golf swing. TGM allows for many variations in the swing and swing style. Clearly some posters only speak of what they've heard or think (Bill12x is a good example), but really don't know what TGM really means.

 

amen

[Jim_0068]

TGM has a lot of good information in it, however it also doesn't have ALL the information in it no matter how many people want to believe it does.

 

Also, all of Homer's "science" isn't correct either as modern scientists have figured out and if Homer was alive today he would have come out with a new version with corrected science. Also his idea of a 'basic motion curriculam', basically what to teach beginners doesn't really work in the "real teaching world."

 

There are some really good nuggets in the book though, you just need to know how to apply them. The best thing TGM has allowed me to do is really CUSTOMIZE my teaching to students. Because the book does separate a lot of components it makes it easy to teach someone pattern X while i teach another person pattern Y.

[slicefixer]

Clampett was one of the absolute BEST ballstrikers at 19 - 20 years old that's ever picked up a golf club.....in fact, he was AMAZING........as to exactly why he tried to "beautify" his golf swing is a 100% TOTALY "mystery" to me........but, ANY competent teacher would have told him to leave 'well enough alone" and NOT messed with his golf swing EXCEPT within the "guidelines" he was taught.......first of all, a golf ball doesn't "know" whether the golf swing that just struck it is "pretty" or looks like a friggin' drunk spinnin' over a curb........2nd, HOW a person could improve a whole helluva' lot on what he HAD is beyond me...(maybe his impact dynamics......SLIGHTLY narrow/steep.....but that's HIGHLY debatable.....LOTS of majors one with a low piercing flight......)......3rd, WHENEVER I'm privileged to work with a golfer who's ALREADY good I NEVER try and "reinvent the wheel" UNLESS he/she can give/show me a GREAT reason to do so........Normally I TRY and talk them out of it.......IF THEY want to "improve" their impact dynamics/fundamentals/slight plane/path change, OK.........but as for tearing down and rebuilding, THAT takes a LOT of guts, perserverance, patience, and TIME........most good players are NOT patient enough and CANNOT afford to go backwards to POSSIBLY get better.......If their already a good player then they have "confidence" in THEIR abilitites, at least to some degree beyond ordinary, and, take it from me, "confidence" IS "fragile"........for most anyway........ :cheesy:

 

However, Clampett isn't the first to worry about how their golf swing "looked" to others.....nor is he the first to "foul up" a career by trying to make their swing "pretty".....(personally, I think it looked pretty damn good when he was @ BYU and his first years on the tour).......My friend, Marty Fleckman, told me one time (and he was every bit as good as Clampett in college/early tour) that the mistake he made when he worked with Byron Nelson was this...."instead of LEARNING from Byron I tried to COPY him, which, in hindsight, was a BIG mistake"........he "lost IT" and was never the same player......."IT" can be VERY "fragile" and is OFTEN taken for granted by those that have "it" and HEAVILY envied by those who don't........as a result LOTS of players have lost "IT" trying to improve on what did NOT need "improving" and LOTS of pretty damn talented players have come and gone trying to "find "IT" " from some OTHER teacher......some OTHER source......etc. etc. etc......I KNOW MORE than a few who've lost "IT"........MOST have NEVER, nor will they EVER have "IT" no matter WHERE/WHO they search, "see," and "work" with........

 

IMOP, one of the KEYS to becoming a successful professional golfer, hell a successful amateur golfer, is to work with what the good Lord gave ya'......use YOUR talent......use YOUR desire......seek out COMPETENT instruction and stick with it......be more PATIENT than a friggin' Oyster......and let the "results" just "take place"...........let em' happen.........but, that's just MOP........

[Swingtheclub]

Clampett was one of the absolute BEST ballstrikers at 19 - 20 years old that's ever picked up a golf club.....in fact, he was AMAZING........as to exactly why he tried to "beautify" his golf swing is a 100% TOTALY "mystery" to me........but, ANY competent teacher would have told him to leave 'well enough alone" and NOT messed with his golf swing EXCEPT within the "guidelines" he was taught.......first of all, a golf ball doesn't "know" whether the golf swing that just struck it is "pretty" or looks like a friggin' drunk spinnin' over a curb........2nd, HOW a person could improve a whole helluva' lot on what he HAD is beyond me...(maybe his impact dynamics......SLIGHTLY narrow/steep.....but that's HIGHLY debatable.....LOTS of majors one with a low piercing flight......)......3rd, WHENEVER I'm privileged to work with a golfer who's ALREADY good I NEVER try and "reinvent the wheel" UNLESS he/she can give/show me a GREAT reason to do so........Normally I TRY and talk them out of it.......IF THEY want to "improve" their impact dynamics/fundamentals/slight plane/path change, OK.........but as for tearing down and rebuilding, THAT takes a LOT of guts, perserverance, patience, and TIME........most good players are NOT patient enough and CANNOT afford to go backwards to POSSIBLY get better.......If their already a good player then they have "confidence" in THEIR abilitites, at least to some degree beyond ordinary, and, take it from me, "confidence" IS "fragile"........for most anyway........ :cheesy:

 

However, Clampett isn't the first to worry about how their golf swing "looked" to others.....nor is he the first to "foul up" a career by trying to make their swing "pretty".....(personally, I think it looked pretty damn good when he was @ BYU and his first years on the tour).......My friend, Marty Fleckman, told me one time (and he was every bit as good as Clampett in college/early tour) that the mistake he made when he worked with Byron Nelson was this...."instead of LEARNING from Byron I tried to COPY him, which, in hindsight, was a BIG mistake"........he "lost IT" and was never the same player......."IT" can be VERY "fragile" and is OFTEN taken for granted by those that have "it" and HEAVILY envied by those who don't........as a result LOTS of players have lost "IT" trying to improve on what did NOT need "improving" and LOTS of pretty damn talented players have come and gone trying to "find "IT" " from some OTHER teacher......some OTHER source......etc. etc. etc......I KNOW MORE than a few who've lost "IT"........MOST have NEVER, nor will they EVER have "IT" no matter WHERE/WHO they search, "see," and "work" with........

 

IMOP, one of the KEYS to becoming a successful professional golfer, hell a successful amateur golfer, is to work with what the good Lord gave ya'......use YOUR talent......use YOUR desire......seek out COMPETENT instruction and stick with it......be more PATIENT than a friggin' Oyster......and let the "results" just "take place"...........let em' happen.........but, that's just MOP........

 

 

 

You know as I said before I watched Bobby debut on tour, he could not have been much older than 19 or 20 and was anything but the best ball striker or one of that I ever saw. He was good just not that good and I hated his golf swing. It looked like someone tied up with mechanics.

 

Marty Fleckman (a blast from the past) did he not win the first tour event he ever played in? I have heard what you said about him and Lord Byron before. I have also heard he wanted to swing the club perfect.

 

I watched him play and practice once in the early seventys and again in 1980 fundamentaly he had a great golf swing and was always a pretty good iron player. His biggest problem was the blur with the driver .

 

Thats what I called his change of direction, it was just too fast and he was just too strong. Maybe he hit too many practice balls.

 

His down swing was as fast as any I have ever seen with a wood. His club head speed must have been phenomenal, but then again it was a train wreck.

 

I also think it had to wear on his mind to have been that good and then lost it. Just the same I think a big part of the problem was as he got stronger he could not control the speed.

 

A very nice guy by the way I wish him well .

[leekgolf]

TGM has a lot of good information in it, however it also doesn't have ALL the information in it no matter how many people want to believe it does.

 

Also, all of Homer's "science" isn't correct either as modern scientists have figured out and if Homer was alive today he would have come out with a new version with corrected science. Also his idea of a 'basic motion curriculam', basically what to teach beginners doesn't really work in the "real teaching world."

 

There are some really good nuggets in the book though, you just need to know how to apply them. The best thing TGM has allowed me to do is really CUSTOMIZE my teaching to students. Because the book does separate a lot of components it makes it easy to teach someone pattern X while i teach another person pattern Y.

 

 

And i'll tell you what...Jim really knows his stuff. He could fix almost anyone pretty fast. Listen to him

[Golfchicago]

I've got a couple of friends in Illinois who are TGM instructors and they are excellent. My only beef with the TGmers online is some of their attitudes. Some have this holier than thou attitude. Almost like they are better than you. The other thing is why does it have to be so difficult to understand. The two teachers I know communicate very well without all the "foreign" language. Here is the bottom line, You don't have to suffer through the book. The book was not writen for the average golfer. It can be rewritten to communicate to the average reader. Even the Bible has been translated from Greek and Hebrew and the King James version to communicate in today's language. Anyone who says that Homer's book can't be translated to the masses doesn't understand effective communication. I really feel sorry for those who can't communicate in writing or orally their points. That is all the more reason I respect the teachers I know who are able to communicate this complex work. Those guys are the true intellects of the truth in my eyes.

[slicefixer]

Trust me, whe Clampett was at BYU and FIRST got on tour he could hit a golf ball in ANY manner HE chose.......and THAT to me is a GREAT ballstriker.......the "ability to CHOOSE the flight/spin/direction and then do it the majority of the time with NO "double crosses".... :cheesy: :tongue: (btw, I have NO idea the time frame when you saw him AND when he started is "beautification" attempt... :tongue:)

 

Pretty good Clampett story.........and it happened to ME.......

 

I won our state's Optimist Junior World State Junior which qualified me for a free trip the Jr. World @ Torrey......bunch of us are staying at a hotel in La Jolla.......Clampett is helping BYU recruit...........was a junior there......at one time I could hit it pretty good off of my knees....(especially considering persimmon)......Clampett is by the swimming pool "visiting" with a group of us.......he's known for hitting it pretty good off of his knees too..... :tongue:.......somebody who knew I could do it pretty well issues a challenge.......the next thing I know we are both adjacent to one of the hotels bldg's hitting balls off of our knees toward the interstate.......he flew me by at least 30 yards.......maybe more......hit it at least 250/260 off of his knees with MY M85.......straight as an arrow.......with incredible "character" to the shot.......he was unreal in those days......and a LITTLE bitty guy too.......I was skinny (at the time....hehehe) and he made me look like I was taking roids....... :tongue:

 

 

Yep, 1968 Cajon Classic........beat both Palmer/Nicklaus who were battling for the money title........Fleck is a very good guy.........and you've got him figured out DEAD on......really good person.....was a shame that he lost "it"......true story, and one of the best IMOP......

 

First tee Augusta......his first Masters........Fleck, after blocking his initial tee shot right, to the Augusta official on 1......it went waaaaaay right....."is that OB?"......"Mr. Fleckman, I have NO idea......to be honest, NOBODY has EVER hit THERE before"...... :crazy: (it WAS off the property)

 

BTW, this may be the best British Open I've ever seen in my life.... :crazy: .....so MANY "story lines".....jeez.......unreal...... :crazy:

[Swingtheclub]

I saw Bobby in July of 1980 at the Quad Cities Open at Oakwood CC. I believe it was his Pro Debut I was the assisstant pro there that year. I watched him practice a couple of times, even chatted with him. I do not remember watching him play.

 

Just nothing special a lot of good ball strikers there but he looked very mechanical too me. Yet everyone was saying he was going to be a world beater. Anyway you look at it he never was.

 

There was another young Pro playing in his second tournament having made a his debut and a nice check at the Western Open

 

his name was Gary Hallberg. I expected a lot more from him as a tour player as well. He certainly did not lack for confidence.

 

On Saturday night on the putting green . He told me he wanted the wind to blow the next day and if it did he would win the tournament.

 

Well the wind blew a bit but he did not win Scott Hoch won his first tournament. Peter Jacobsen went home after 36 holes for the birth of his first child, and a young pro Mike ( I forget his last name ) also in his first tournament asking me where he could get his name painted on the staff bag the Titelist rep just gave him.

 

Ok two questions for anyone that can answer.

 

1. What really happened to Hallberg ( I heard rumors of drugs and alchol)

 

2. Who was Mike I hope I have even got his first name right. His biggest moment in golf he was runner up to Hale Irwin in the US Open one year. May have even lost too him in a playoff.

[slicefixer]

Got it........Clampett, at least the few times when I saw him hit it with my own eye's, was really, really good........obviously, like Sergio, his ball flight was a bit low, but, man could he compress it and make it work both ways on demand.......but, like all of us, if you catch him on the wrong week/month/year he could well have been going through a "hackin' period"....(especially with so much load and the resulting tendency to get steep/narrow)....there's video of Hogan hitting shots out of bunkers/trees/ponds/1' high fescue so even he didn't hit it on the button all of the time.... :drinks: :crazy: :crazy:

 

........Well, as I did NOT see Hallberg with my own eye's I won't speculate in public.......but, if you'll email me I can pretty well tell you the whole story from a very good source who DID see it.... :crazy:

 

.......Your talking about Mike Donald......1990 @ Medinah......lost to Irwin in an 18 hole playoff...........Billy Ray played well.......REALLY good guy.......kind of an unusual person as he was VERY dependant on his mother as his "guide" through life.......two things happened.....lost the Open (when he really should have won) and the poor health (and subsequent death) of his beloved mom.......been sorta' lost since then.....essentially he had two things in life, golf and his mother, and they both were tied together.......lost one and then the other......he's a heckuva' nice person and was really never the "prototypical" tour player........just a nice guy who worked hard and had a few flashes of "it"........