The Golfing Machine

[scores]

Gary Hallberg - this is the guy that wore the Dick Tracey hats??? I remember watching him when I was a kid!!

[hoganfan924]

I've got a couple of friends in Illinois who are TGM instructors and they are excellent. My only beef with the TGmers online is some of their attitudes. Some have this holier than thou attitude. Almost like they are better than you. The other thing is why does it have to be so difficult to understand. The two teachers I know communicate very well without all the "foreign" language. Here is the bottom line, You don't have to suffer through the book. The book was not writen for the average golfer. It can be rewritten to communicate to the average reader. Even the Bible has been translated from Greek and Hebrew and the King James version to communicate in today's language. Anyone who says that Homer's book can't be translated to the masses doesn't understand effective communication. I really feel sorry for those who can't communicate in writing or orally their points. That is all the more reason I respect the teachers I know who are able to communicate this complex work. Those guys are the true intellects of the truth in my eyes.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself! The 10 cross references per page just about make my head explode every time I try to read the book.

[Asleep]

...The 10 cross references per page just about make my head explode every time I try to read the book.

Agree. My understanding is Mr. Kelly had to publish the book himself, and fewer pages meant lower cost. That and his desire for TGM to be a text book left it difficult to navigate.

 

...I've got a couple of friends in Illinois who are TGM instructors and they are excellent. My only beef with the TGmers online is some of their attitudes. Some have this holier than thou attitude. Almost like they are better than you...

Yeah, that put me off delving into TGM for years. That's just a small group of folks though, and doesn't represent the whole of TGM universe. A guy like Lynn Blake, who knew Mr. Kelly and is a GSED, is as open & generous as can be with TGM. He's pretty busy these days working with a growing number of PGA/Nationwide pros, but if you want to learn about The Golfing Machine do what you can to get yourself in front of Lynn. You will learn from him.

 

...Also, all of Homer's "science" isn't correct either as modern scientists have figured out and if Homer was alive today he would have come out with a new version with corrected science...

I'm curious as to which applied laws of basic geometry & physics have changed since 1983.

 

..."IT" can be VERY "fragile" and is OFTEN taken for granted by those that have "it" and HEAVILY envied by those who don't........as a result LOTS of players have lost "IT" trying to improve on what did NOT need "improving" and LOTS of pretty damn talented players have come and gone trying to "find "IT" " from some OTHER teacher......some OTHER source......etc. etc. etc..... one of the KEYS to becoming a successful professional golfer, hell a successful amateur golfer, is to work with what the good Lord gave ya'......use YOUR talent......use YOUR desire......seek out COMPETENT instruction and stick with it......be more PATIENT than a friggin' Oyster......and let the "results" just "take place"......

Always appreciate the context you build around your knowledge, Geoff...great stories. And on "IT", you know Jackie Burke agrees with you. Every year or so I get his familiar directive: "You've a got find your golf swing in here," tapping his finger repeatedly into my chest, "your authentic swing is inside you....and out there in the dirt!"

[hoganfan924]

Let's keep this going. Here's a great video of my favorite TGM'r of all time. He explains TGM in less than 2 minutes!

 

 

Enjoy!

[gators78]

Heres my question then, what is the best way for somebody to get into TGM?

 

I am a college student right now, and I would rather not start paying for a huge package of lessons. I am currently a 1 handicap and a fairly decent student (although I'm an econ major, not even close to an engineer) so I have no idea if reading the book would even be worth it? What about the fundamentals book by Mike Hebron? I'm sure many others would like some suggestions...

[FlyFish]

Heres my question then, what is the best way for somebody to get into TGM?

 

 

Brian Manzella GSED has a free show on YouTube. That should give you a taste for TGM (or at least his take on it).

 

[leekgolf]

Heres my question then, what is the best way for somebody to get into TGM?

 

 

Brian Manzella GSED has a free show on YouTube. That should give you a taste for TGM (or at least his take on it).

 

 

 

Please be aware, Brian is not "orthodox" TGM. Brian researches lots of things and if he finds TGM in error, he says so and presents his findings.

 

I go to Brian for instruction. Best Golf Instructor I've ever seen.

[mfm22]

The more I see Brian manzella, the more I like him and TGM. Even if he is not "orthodox" ,he is a passionate golf professional. Seems like he loves the game and understands the principles of the golf swing.

I'm not sure why he would put so much info on utube,I know his site is a pay for deal .

Anyone using him or know someone who is? I have Homer kelley 's book and took one look inside and was turned off by the outdated photos, and the technical manor.

Just finished 'The impact zone " Bobby Clampett. and it is a good take on some basics that get overlooked for style[as he puts it] Love what he had to say about game improvement irons.

[TexasAg]

The more I see Brian manzella, the more I like him and TGM. Even if he is not "orthodox" ,he is a passionate golf professional. Seems like he loves the game and understands the principles of the golf swing.

I'm not sure why he would put so much info on utube,I know his site is a pay for deal .

 

His site is not a "pay for" deal. He has some videos that you can purchase, but the forums are free and there is a huge amount of free content there. All sorts of videos, posts, etc.

[mfm22]

good to know .would love to work with him he is only in louissiana?

[TexasAg]

good to know .would love to work with him he is only in louissiana?

 

You just missed him and Ben Doyle in NY a few weeks ago. Check his forums. He travels around the country regularly.

[tbyeaton0627]

Heres my question then, what is the best way for somebody to get into TGM?

 

 

Brian Manzella GSED has a free show on YouTube. That should give you a taste for TGM (or at least his take on it).

 

 

 

Please be aware, Brian is not "orthodox" TGM. Brian researches lots of things and if he finds TGM in error, he says so and presents his findings.

 

I go to Brian for instruction. Best Golf Instructor I've ever seen.

 

Leek Brian is a brilliant instructor but his findings are his findings and not necessarily accepted by TGM community, as a TGM'er I disagree with some of what Brian believes, so I think it would fair to say he just does it a different way

[mfm22]

Manzella vs TGM ... what are their differences?? how big a gap can there be . ...fulcrum or pivot pts??

[tbyeaton0627]

Manzella vs TGM ... what are their differences?? how big a gap can there be . ...fulcrum or pivot pts??

 

Manzella is an incredible instructor and will teach you a G.O.L.F swing, however there have been disagreements with TGM topics just as basic motion, and some of the sciences of the swing, etc. Just goes about it a different way thats all and is quite the character...

[FlyFish]

TGM is still evolving. The 7th edition just got released by Joe Daniels.

[stuckntx]

I think he differs in some of his interpretations of what the book is saying.

For instance, I took some lessons from a prominent TGM instructor. When I left, I was worse than when I got there. I got a steady stream of right forearm pickup and downward outward and forward. What I did not get was a fix for my flaws.

When I saw Brian, it took him two swings to diagnose my faulty pivot. Way to the right side (Hook)of his Matrix. He fixed my pivot and got me swinging more to left field. What is best is that he will suggest various ways to feel what he is trying to have you perform until you get it right.

He is also a great guy who is passionate about golf and helping his students play their best.

Check his site since he is always adding Tour Stops around the country.

[Brian Manzella]

tbyeaton0627

 

Brian is a brilliant instructor but his findings are his findings and not necessarily accepted by TGM community, as a TGM'er I disagree with some of what Brian believes, so I think it would fair to say he just does it a different way.

 

I bought my first Golfing Machine book in 1982 because I wanted to learn from it. I did.

 

When I stopped learning from it on my own five years later, I went to see Ben Doyle. That was 20 years ago. I went to learn from him, and to learn more from the book. I did. Me and Ben are very close, and he just did a Manzella Acadmey School with him and Michael Jacobs. another G.S.E.D. and great friend on Long Island.

 

I continued to research and learn from the book—and the not so secret audio tapes—until I exhausted the “inventory” of information in it.

 

I read everything I can get my hands on. I research every day. I self evaluate my lessons and my work every single day. I go to every seminar and summit that are worth attending, and many that aren’t.

 

I want to be the very best, and if I am not there, I am getting closer everyday.

 

When someone says, “His findings are his findings,” is that supposed to mean my findings are lesser findings than someone else’s?

 

Homer Kelley was a brilliant man, and it took him 28 years to write the first edition of The Golfing Machine, thirteen more to write the 6th edition. He did a great service for golf, uncovering and naming all sorts of things that were either unknown or under-promoted. He systematized the swing in way that makes anything that came before it seem like a kindergarten project. The three imperatives alone are priceless.

 

Homer was not an engineer, nor a mathematician or physicist. He certainly was not a golf teacher by trade, and wasn't the greatest writer of the 20th century by any means. He didn’t own a high-speed camera, 3D system, or any of the multitudes of measurement devices available today. Yet, there are some that think he was infallible, and that every word in the book is gospel.

 

They are obviously very wrong.

 

Dr. Aaron Zick, who spoke at the last TGM Summit, was asked about the validity of a simple concept from the book from a scientific standpoint. His response was “You guys (the book’s followers) have bigger problems than that.”

 

He wasn’t talking about book binding problems or typos.

 

Robert Grober said there was a "mistake" on every page.

 

Having said that, The Golfing Machine is what it is—the best golf swing information source available currently in Golf.

 

I highly recommend anyone who teaches golf to become an Authorized Instructor, and attend the Summits.

 

Worth every penny and then some.

 

I am certainly no Dr. Zick or Dr. Grober, but I made a 131 on an IQ test and 41 on the Wonderlic, so I ain't no dummy either.

 

My “findings” are usually something that started with an idea of mine, cross-referenced with what is in the book or being taught elsewhere. I test it on myself, use it on my students, and research it to death. If I get lucky an Aaron Zick or a "Mandrin" or a Robert Grober will chime in with the science, either on my forum or somewhere else. High-Speed video or stills, or 3D are always sought out for back-up. The big equipment companies are a wealth of information when they share it from time to time.

 

For example, my preference for using the “twistaway” and the visually neutral grip for help cure chronic slicers—I didn’t just dream that up, it took 20+ years on the lesson tee to figure out the “Never Slice Again” pattern. It is something that Math can’t prove or disprove. It isn’t “in” the book, per se. But, I have the proof that it works, and I am willing to show up anywhere in front of my peers to demonstrate that it does work better that what is often used in pop instruction and by some AI’s.

 

“His findings are his findings”?

 

I suggest that the young man needs to come watch me teach for week and report back.

 

Now as for the “not necessarily accepted by the TGM community” comment, which TGM community is he referring to? He should have been at the last TGM summit. It would have been very eye opening.

 

But, let me say this, whatever any AI wants to teach is fine with me. I used to worry about it, because I like people to be accurate and things to be fair. Those days are over.

 

Let them teach whatever they want, and if they want to say it is the holy truth, God bless ‘em.

 

I teach what I teach for one reason and one reason only—results. When I can get better results with something else, I change instantly and let everyone know it.

 

The “truth” is that you either swing too far to the left or to the right, or your swing is on the right line for you. You either have the clubface too open or too closed, or it is just fine for you. The bottom of the swing is either too far forward, too far back or perfect for your desired result. The angle of attack is too steep, too shallow or perfect for your pattern. And, the Pivot is strictly for positioning those factors and generating speed.

 

All of the rest of it, Jimmy Ballard’s common denominators, Jim Hardy’s one plane pattern, Haney’s rotate the arms and have the club move in parallel planes, Harmon’s shortened backswings and wide downswings, Stack and Tilt, etc, ARE JUST THE MEANS for the above “truth” of what makes the ball go from point A to point B.

 

The rest is just marketing.

 

My "Manzella Matrix" is just a super understandable classification system of real-world patterns and solutions, and a philosophy of how to use it. It is not meant as a Golfing Machine replacement or TGM-lite. It is "my findings" and for all the research some teachers say they do, they haven't out thought and out-tested me in the last 25 years.

 

The beauty of what I do for a living—teach folks to play golf—is that I am my own boss. I don't have to listen to what the PGA says is correct, and I don't have to use the the Golfing Machine as a how-to manual. To me it is a tool, a great tool, but I teach to help my students play their best, whether it is a David Toms or a adult beginneer class. I do not teach to be accepted by any group.

 

I do like the “brilliant instructor” part, though. ;)

[slicefixer]

tbyeaton0627

 

Brian is a brilliant instructor but his findings are his findings and not necessarily accepted by TGM community, as a TGM'er I disagree with some of what Brian believes, so I think it would fair to say he just does it a different way.

 

I bought my first Golfing Machine book in 1982 because I wanted to learn from it. I did.

 

When I stopped learning from it on my own five years later, I went to see Ben Doyle. That was 20 years ago. I went to learn from him, and to learn more from the book. I did. Me and Ben are very close, and he just did a Manzella Acadmey School with him and Michael Jacobs. another G.S.E.D. and great friend on Long Island.

 

I continued to research and learn from the book—and the not so secret audio tapes—until I exhausted the “inventory” of information in it.

 

I read everything I can get my hands on. I research every day. I self evaluate my lessons and my work every single day. I go to every seminar and summit that are worth attending, and many that aren’t.

 

I want to be the very best, and if I am not there, I am getting closer everyday.

 

When someone says, “His findings are his findings,” is that supposed to mean my findings are lesser findings than someone else’s?

 

Homer Kelley was a brilliant man, and it took him 28 years to write the first edition of The Golfing Machine, thirteen more to write the 6th edition. He did a great service for golf, uncovering and naming all sorts of things that were either unknown or under-promoted. He systematized the swing in way that makes anything that came before it seem like a kindergarten project. The three imperatives alone are priceless.

 

Homer was not an engineer, nor a mathematician or physicist. He certainly was not a golf teacher by trade, and wasn't the greatest writer of the 20th century by any means. He didn’t own a high-speed camera, 3D system, or any of the multitudes of measurement devices available today. Yet, there are some that think he was infallible, and that every word in the book is gospel.

 

They are obviously very wrong.

 

Dr. Aaron Zick, who spoke at the last TGM Summit, was asked about the validity of a simple concept from the book from a scientific standpoint. His response was “You guys (the book’s followers) have bigger problems than that.”

 

He wasn’t talking about book binding problems or typos.

 

Robert Grober said there was a "mistake" on every page.

 

Having said that, The Golfing Machine is what it is—the best golf swing information source available currently in Golf.

 

I highly recommend anyone who teaches golf to become an Authorized Instructor, and attend the Summits.

 

Worth every penny and then some.

 

I am certainly no Dr. Zick or Dr. Grober, but I made a 131 on an IQ test and 41 on the Wonderlic, so I ain't no dummy either.

 

My “findings” are usually something that started with an idea of mine, cross-referenced with what is in the book or being taught elsewhere. I test it on myself, use it on my students, and research it to death. If I get lucky an Aaron Zick or a "Mandrin" or a Robert Grober will chime in with the science, either on my forum or somewhere else. High-Speed video or stills, or 3D are always sought out for back-up. The big equipment companies are a wealth of information when they share it from time to time.

 

For example, my preference for using the “twistaway” and the visually neutral grip for help cure chronic slicers—I didn’t just dream that up, it took 20+ years on the lesson tee to figure out the “Never Slice Again” pattern. It is something that Math can’t prove or disprove. It isn’t “in” the book, per se. But, I have the proof that it works, and I am willing to show up anywhere in front of my peers to demonstrate that it does work better that what is often used in pop instruction and by some AI’s.

 

“His findings are his findings”?

 

I suggest that the young man needs to come watch me teach for week and report back.

 

Now as for the “not necessarily accepted by the TGM community” comment, which TGM community is he referring to? He should have been at the last TGM summit. It would have been very eye opening.

 

But, let me say this, whatever any AI wants to teach is fine with me. I used to worry about it, because I like people to be accurate and things to be fair. Those days are over.

 

Let them teach whatever they want, and if they want to say it is the holy truth, God bless ‘em.

 

I teach what I teach for one reason and one reason only—results. When I can get better results with something else, I change instantly and let everyone know it.

 

The “truth” is that you either swing too far to the left or to the right, or your swing is on the right line for you. You either have the clubface too open or too closed, or it is just fine for you. The bottom of the swing is either too far forward, too far back or perfect for your desired result. The angle of attack is too steep, too shallow or perfect for your pattern. And, the Pivot is strictly for positioning those factors and generating speed.

 

All of the rest of it, Jimmy Ballard’s common denominators, Jim Hardy’s one plane pattern, Haney’s rotate the arms and have the club move in parallel planes, Harmon’s shortened backswings and wide downswings, Stack and Tilt, etc, ARE JUST THE MEANS for the above “truth” of what makes the ball go from point A to point B.

 

The rest is just marketing.

 

My "Manzella Matrix" is just a super understandable classification system of real-world patterns and solutions, and a philosophy of how to use it. It is not meant as a Golfing Machine replacement or TGM-lite. It is "my findings" and for all the research some teachers say they do, they haven't out thought and out-tested me in the last 25 years.

 

The beauty of what I do for a living—teach folks to play golf—is that I am my own boss. I don't have to listen to what the PGA says is correct, and I don't have to use the the Golfing Machine as a how-to manual. To me it is a tool, a great tool, but I teach to help my students play their best, whether it is a David Toms or a adult beginneer class. I do not teach to be accepted by any group.

 

I do like the “brilliant instructor” part, though. ;)

 

 

VERY well said Brian.......:)

[bax1865]

For an instructor the greatest asset the Golfing Machine provides is the ability to explain to the student the proper verifiable alignments of the golf swing. When the student leaves the lesson tee they have a much better understanding of not only what to work on but the ability to "look, look, look" to be able to "verify, verify, verify". The mystery melts away as their ability to understand the true geometry of the golf swing increases. No doubt feel is an important aspect for the student, but how can anyone truly explain something they feel to a student without the possibility that they may not have the same understanding of that "feel". Again, "let mechanics produce and feel reproduce." It is a wonderful book, one that each time I pick it up, the light gets brighter and the fog dissappears.