External rotation in rear shoulder a MAJOR key to consistent ball striking?

[pearsonified]

The topic of internal/external shoulder rotation isn't new, but one point keeps coming up that is a little hard to understand or interpret:

 

The rear shoulder should be in external rotation on the downswing.

 

To me, this has always seemed very strange. In my mind, external rotation of the rear shoulder means that the shoulder is "rolling" the arm AWAY from the ball. The fact such a motion should occur during the downswing is odd and counter-intuitive, considering your sole intent is to move the club to/through the ball and smash it.

 

To understand why external rotation is desirable during the downswing, we need to look more closely at the mechanics.

 

Internal rotation of the rear shoulder is a "released" and "free" position, whereas external rotation is more of a "braced" and "stable" position.

 

This is easy to test and feel on your own: Pin your elbows to your sides, bend your arms up so your forearms are at 90º to your torso, and then roll your shoulders in and out to see how your elbows respond to internal and external rotation.

 

When you roll your shoulders out (external rotation), your elbows get pinned to your core in a very sturdy and stable position. By contrast, when you roll your shoulders in (internal rotation), your elbows "chicken wing" out away from the body (where they are literally supported by nothing!).

 

Obviously, if you want to have a sturdy and stable position at impact with as much bracing and support from your body as possible, you'll want the rear shoulder to exhibit some degree of external rotation at that time.

 

Here's why I think this is so interesting:

 

For about two years, my idea of a "release" has been this driving sensation with my rear arm, where I really throw my right arm toward the ball with my shoulder. It feels strong; it feels like an intentional "hit;" and occasionally, it results in a great shot. Unfortunately, it doesn't result in much consistency.

 

And now I know why—that driving/throwing move is actually the rear shoulder going into internal rotation. Instead of providing a forceful, stabilizing presence both at and through impact, this move completely gives up control of the right arm (from the elbow down) and just throws it at the ball.

 

For months, I've been chasing a solid, stable, strong feeling at impact that I've enjoyed ever-so-occasionally when I've fluked my way into a perfect shot. Thanks to this new understanding of external rotation and its role in the swing, I am now experiencing this "unicorn" feeling at impact every time I break out the sticks.

 

And it gets better.

 

Understanding external rotation has led to epiphanies/breakthroughs in the following areas:

1. Chipping/pitching — For years, I've struggled to get ANY loft on chips, pitches, and anything less than a full swing with wedges. Everything is a little steep, a little low, and a little left (or waaay right). The reason? I do the driving/throwing thing (internal rotation) even worse on little swings! Incredible. Now that I'm working through the ball in external rotation, my short game has completely opened up. (Side note: I was never able to "use the bounce" effectively before this epiphany. I get it now.)
   
2. Putting — Why do I pull putts? (And sometimes, when I pull longer putts, I have this lunge-y, hitty feeling at the ball, and I blow it way past the hole.) The reason? Internal rotation, which wants to roll the club face shut. By achieving even a small degree of external rotation during putting, I have taken most of the yippy stuff out of my stroke, and I have an easier time getting the ball started on my intended line.
   
3. Club head speed — For months, I've just sort of taken for granted that 3-6mph swing speed fluctuations are just a physical reality and not necessarily the result of a mechanical issue. Well, I was wrong—the problem was internal rotation. Since 2015, I've had 4 periods of playing exceptional golf (each lasted 40-50 days). My launch monitor data from those periods is always the same—I start with my peak swing speeds of the year and end with some of my worst. Looking back, I'm starting to think I probably began to struggle whenever the driving/throwing tendency reared its ugly, internally-rotating head.
   

Anyway, I think this is huge, and I think it may speak to some of you out there who have the same kind of "THOR SMASH hit instincts."

[marte]

Monte saying the right shoulder should be rotated externally on the backswing.

 

You said.."Thanks to this new understanding of external rotation and its role in the swing, I am now experiencing this "unicorn" feeling at impact every time I break out the sticks." I'm wondering what you do with the rear shoulder in the forward swing...are you simply holding it in that ex rotated position throughout the swing.

The reason I ask is because, shortly b4 seeing this thread, swinging in man cave, I decided to try to keep my right shoulder inactive on the <swing. Whatever position it was in at the top I just kind of left it there on the forward swing..no manipulating it. In my mind, my feel, whatever...my right (rear) shoulder was just kind of passively following my left shoulder along.

Results so far are promising. My right shoulder up to now has been pretty active, somehow or other jutting out, leading to heel hits. Allowing the right shoulder (in a non-active, externally rotated position) to just follow the left shoulder along has for the time being anyway stopped the heel hits. I haven't taken a lot of swings like this to get a good feel for what is going on but suspect my right shoulder is rotating internally just as the club head is approaching the ball? Hope some of this makes sense.

Anyway, I'm curious as to what your right shoulder is doing during the downswing.

[Kirk Land]

Monte saying the right shoulder should be rotated externally on the backswing.

 

You said.."Thanks to this new understanding of external rotation and its role in the swing, I am now experiencing this "unicorn" feeling at impact every time I break out the sticks." I'm wondering what you do with the rear shoulder in the forward swing...are you simply holding it in that ex rotated position throughout the swing.

The reason I ask is because, shortly b4 seeing this thread, swinging in man cave, I decided to try to keep my right shoulder inactive on the <swing. Whatever position it was in at the top I just kind of left it there on the forward swing..no manipulating it. In my mind, my feel, whatever...my right (rear) shoulder was just kind of passively following my left shoulder along.

Results so far are promising. My right shoulder up to now has been pretty active, somehow or other jutting out, leading to heel hits. Allowing the right shoulder (in a non-active, externally rotated position) to just follow the left shoulder along has for the time being anyway stopped the heel hits. I haven't taken a lot of swings like this to get a good feel for what is going on but suspect my right shoulder is rotating internally just as the club head is approaching the ball? Hope some of this makes sense.

 

Anyway, I'm curious as to what your right shoulder is doing during the downswing.

 

Shoulders and arms take their cue from our hands. Externally rotate your trail hand at beginning of DS and your trail shoulder will externally rotate.

A common analogy is simulate what it is to be loosing at arm wrestle with trail hand. Your hand and wrist being forced clockwise will torque your arm and shoulder causing shoulder to externally rotate and BTW cause your right elbow down and in front of the right hip.

 

Externally rotating the trail shoulder in BS will restrict and confine the movement of the right arm in BS. The right elbow needs to point outward and behind us in the BS.

[pearsonified]

I'm wondering what you do with the rear shoulder in the forward swing...are you simply holding it in that ex rotated position throughout the swing.

I've been fooling around with this for about a week, and I'm at the point where I don't want to force anything at address or think about positions during the backswing. I begin my backswing with the sole intent of externally rotating that rear shoulder through the impact area.

 

From transition through impact, I'm just thinking about externally rotating the right shoulder to support the right arm as I strike the ball. My feeling during this portion of the swing is that the right shoulder is providing a clockwise torque that holds the clubface steady (and literally braces it against the right side of the torso) while the path moves along a more counter-clockwise arc.

 

Bottom line: I'm only thinking about what needs to happen during the downswing for an effective strike. I find that staying loose and athletic at address and during the backswing helps me perform this downswing more consistently.

[sunnaydee]

What exactly is meant by internal and external shoulder rotation? Where should I go to read up on these terms?

[kylesilk]

The topic of internal/external shoulder rotation isn't new, but one point keeps coming up that is a little hard to understand or interpret:

 

The rear shoulder should be in external rotation on the downswing.

 

To me, this has always seemed very strange. In my mind, external rotation of the rear shoulder means that the shoulder is "rolling" the arm AWAY from the ball. The fact such a motion should occur during the downswing is odd and counter-intuitive, considering your sole intent is to move the club to/through the ball and smash it.

 

To understand why external rotation is desirable during the downswing, we need to look more closely at the mechanics.

 

Internal rotation of the rear shoulder is a "released" and "free" position, whereas external rotation is more of a "braced" and "stable" position.

 

This is easy to test and feel on your own: Pin your elbows to your sides, bend your arms up so your forearms are at 90º to your torso, and then roll your shoulders in and out to see how your elbows respond to internal and external rotation.

 

When you roll your shoulders out (external rotation), your elbows get pinned to your core in a very sturdy and stable position. By contrast, when you roll your shoulders in (internal rotation), your elbows "chicken wing" out away from the body (where they are literally supported by nothing!).

 

Obviously, if you want to have a sturdy and stable position at impact with as much bracing and support from your body as possible, you'll want the rear shoulder to exhibit some degree of external rotation at that time.

 

Here's why I think this is so interesting:

 

For about two years, my idea of a "release" has been this driving sensation with my rear arm, where I really throw my right arm toward the ball with my shoulder. It feels strong; it feels like an intentional "hit;" and occasionally, it results in a great shot. Unfortunately, it doesn't result in much consistency.

 

And now I know why—that driving/throwing move is actually the rear shoulder going into internal rotation. Instead of providing a forceful, stabilizing presence both at and through impact, this move completely gives up control of the right arm (from the elbow down) and just throws it at the ball.

 

For months, I've been chasing a solid, stable, strong feeling at impact that I've enjoyed ever-so-occasionally when I've fluked my way into a perfect shot. Thanks to this new understanding of external rotation and its role in the swing, I am now experiencing this "unicorn" feeling at impact every time I break out the sticks.

 

And it gets better.

 

Understanding external rotation has led to epiphanies/breakthroughs in the following areas:

1. Chipping/pitching — For years, I've struggled to get ANY loft on chips, pitches, and anything less than a full swing with wedges. Everything is a little steep, a little low, and a little left (or waaay right). The reason? I do the driving/throwing thing (internal rotation) even worse on little swings! Incredible. Now that I'm working through the ball in external rotation, my short game has completely opened up. (Side note: I was never able to "use the bounce" effectively before this epiphany. I get it now.)
   
2. Putting — Why do I pull putts? (And sometimes, when I pull longer putts, I have this lunge-y, hitty feeling at the ball, and I blow it way past the hole.) The reason? Internal rotation, which wants to roll the club face shut. By achieving even a small degree of external rotation during putting, I have taken most of the yippy stuff out of my stroke, and I have an easier time getting the ball started on my intended line.
   
3. Club head speed — For months, I've just sort of taken for granted that 3-6mph swing speed fluctuations are just a physical reality and not necessarily the result of a mechanical issue. Well, I was wrong—the problem was internal rotation. Since 2015, I've had 4 periods of playing exceptional golf (each lasted 40-50 days). My launch monitor data from those periods is always the same—I start with my peak swing speeds of the year and end with some of my worst. Looking back, I'm starting to think I probably began to struggle whenever the driving/throwing tendency reared its ugly, internally-rotating head.
   

Anyway, I think this is huge, and I think it may speak to some of you out there who have the same kind of "THOR SMASH hit instincts."

I'm interested in your future posts after you continue to work on this. I have been thinking about this exact concept pretty heavily for a few weeks. I agree, it just seems counter intuitive to me too.

[TurnHard Langer]

It's the same as throwing a baseball. Watch a youtube of an MLB pitcher throwing in slow motion and you will see more external rotation than you ever dreamed possible.

[Diz]

Hard to play with it not. ER that is

[marte]

What exactly is meant by internal and external shoulder rotation? Where should I go to read up on these terms?

 

http://www.golfloopy.com/internal-and-external-rotation/

I'm no authority on this so am assuming the piece is correct.

[marte]

I'm wondering what you do with the rear shoulder in the forward swing...are you simply holding it in that ex rotated position throughout the swing.

I've been fooling around with this for about a week, and I'm at the point where I don't want to force anything at address or think about positions during the backswing. I begin my backswing with the sole intent of externally rotating that rear shoulder through the impact area.

 

From transition through impact, I'm just thinking about externally rotating the right shoulder to support the right arm as I strike the ball. My feeling during this portion of the swing is that the right shoulder is providing a clockwise torque that holds the clubface steady (and literally braces it against the right side of the torso) while the path moves along a more counter-clockwise arc.

 

Bottom line: I'm only thinking about what needs to happen during the downswing for an effective strike. I find that staying loose and athletic at address and during the backswing helps me perform this downswing more consistently.

 

Thanks pearsonified. Got it.

 

From the link in post #9..."The external rotation of your right arm increases slightly during the transition phase, as your right arm moves ahead of your hands and club, stretching your lats, pectorals and deltoid for added power in the downswing.

Late in the downswing, your right arm internally rotates as your right elbow extends coming into impact, releasing the power of your lats, pectorals and deltoid into the golf club. This power is why the right hand is often referred to as the “speed hand” in the golf swing." As I experiment with this, my right arm does rotate internally late in the downswing as the author states. I think my issue might have been that, yes my right shoulder was externally rotated at the top but at the start of the forward swing I immediately and unknowingly rotated it internally. Anyway, leaving my trail (right) shoulder externally rotated for as long as possible in the downswing appears to be helpful. Good luck with your experiment. Hope this thread gets some traction as it's of interest to me also...I'll be following.

[levi_munson]

Any thoughts on presetting ER in the right arm at address? Anyone experimented with this?

 

I've been watching Monte's vids multiple times and am working on: keeping the right hip deep (zipper away), seeing the equator on the ball (excessive head movement) and then speeding up the right arm (no turn cast drill). For reference, I'm about a 10 cap because I have the dreaded inside out release with a two way miss. So I'm working real hard on an inside left release using thoughts involving the cast or ER of the left arm on the DS. I'm am seeking that "aha" moment to take on my golf swing.

 

Thanks.

[royourboat]

I think the ER'ing of the R shoulder is similar to opening of the hips+shoulders prior to impact - you're creating the latest hit possible by giving the greatest stretch-shorten cycle to the last part of the swing.

[pearsonified]

Any thoughts on presetting ER in the right arm at address? Anyone experimented with this?

I have, and I don't love it. Presetting positions at address necessarily implies a small degree of tension, and my results are just never quite optimal whenever I do anything like this (but especially with shoulders, elbows, or wrists/hands).

 

Generally speaking, whenever the topic of "pretensioning" comes up, I fall into the camp that prefers "loading" or "triggering" to get into a coiled or tensed-up position to fire at the ball—in other words, a dynamic move to get into an optimal hitting position.

 

A bow-and-arrow analogy is useful here. At address, the bow is in a neutral state, and the drawstring is in its most relaxed (but fully connected) position. During the backswing, the drawstring is pulled backwards, adding a ton of natural tension.

 

For the strongest and fastest launch, you want to pull that drawstring back as far as possible without breaking the string OR affecting your ability to aim the bow.

 

As you release the drawstring and launch the arrow, you are really just trying to hold everything steady while the tension is released, sending the arrow hurtling towards the target.

 

Bottom line here is that tension/presetting at address is more likely to inhibit your ability to create an efficient coil and store maximum tension in the backswing. Of course, this will also affect your ability to release this energy effectively on the downswing, as an inefficient coil leads to an inefficient release.

[gators78]

I found with the shoulder in ER it really forces you to turn properly through the ball. For a righty if your left shoulder goes up in transition, rather than back and around, you'll hit some wild shots. Probably why my right arm goes into IR so quickly, being blocked out if I didn't unload the arm I'd miss the ball.

 

The quest continues...

[Galanga]

ER in right shoulder definitely had advantages in chipping and pitching practice. Much more precise contact and distance control.

 

Wary of presetting ER in right for full swing due to tension issues describe above. Also, it seems you may lose swing speed without the ER to IR pop through the ball. But, I probably should give it a go first and not prejudge.

 

Agree that it makes you rotate more if you stay ER through impact.

.

[glk]

a note on how the greats did things:

http://kelvinmiyahiragolf-articles.com/index.php/articles/articles-2/2015-articles/144-2015-instinct-golf

[pearsonified]

Excellent post. I think that's one of Miyahira's best articles.

[moehogan]

Trail shoulder: IR to ER (P2 to P6) is loading ... ER to IR (P6 to P10) is unloading

[Kirk Land]

Trail shoulder: IR to ER (P2 to P6) is loading ... ER to IR (P6 to P10) is unloading

 

The concept to be connected means to load and stay loaded through impact.

 

Any unloading prior to impact, will create slack which means power leakage in full shots and short shots

 

A horse drawn wagon going up hill becomes loaded with all slack taken out of the lines and full power is applied to the wagon.

 

Downhill, there is unloading and slack with much less power transmission.

 

When body stalls in DS, we become unloaded. Some who think they fire their trail hip at impact create more slack.

[moehogan]

Trail shoulder: IR to ER (P2 to P6) is loading ... ER to IR (P6 to P10) is unloading

 

The concept to be connected means to load and stay loaded through impact.

 

Any unloading prior to impact, will create slack which means power leakage in full shots and short shots

 

A horse drawn wagon going up hill becomes loaded with all slack taken out of the lines and full power is applied to the wagon.

 

Downhill, there is unloading and slack with much less power transmission.

 

When body stalls in DS, we become unloaded. Some who think they fire their trail hip at impact create more slack.

 

"AT ONE AND THE SAME TIME, THE MUSCLES OF THE RIGHT HIP AND THE MUSCLES OF THE RIGHT THIGH-BOTH THE INSIDE AND THE POWERFUL OUTSIDE THIGH MUSCLES-START TO MOVE THE RIGHT HIP FORWARD."

- Ben Hogan, 5L

 

 

Perhaps we have different definitions or concepts of "loading and unloading". I'm referring to the release of his Power Accumulators (PA4, PA1, PA2, PA3), not stalling the pivot. Left arm has already started to release but the club has to kick out to get down to the ball ... in Hogan's case that requires UD, the right index finger pushing against the handle and some CCW right forearm rotation from P6 to P7 to go from supinated to neutral. As the right hand starts to lead the right elbow in the same interval, that puts him in IR.

[Gamble Gamble]

Hard to play with it not. ER that is

 

I think GG likes the shoulder to be internally rotated to help with swing speed and shallowing during transition. I'll default to the experts on GG though...

[reddobeman]

The feeling of leaving your hands at the top and turning while maintaining width promotes right shoulder ER.

 

Another way to practice this feeling is to hit balls with the right arm only. I like to swing to the top with my right arm only on the club and to then place my left arm on the club and maintain the ER/width during the transition

[marte]

To those of you who are doing the ER of right shoulder on Down Swing....will pulling the Inside of the right Shoulder Blade in toward the Spine accomplish this? Thanks.

[moehogan]

Best way I've found to achieve right shoulder ER is to rotate the entire right arm, especially the upper arm, clockwise ... that gets the right elbow leading the right hand. Merely supinating the right forearm/hand and not the humerus can leave the right elbow behind and stuck with the right hand leading the right elbow ... now you're in IR. ESR and supination do go together like soup and sandwich but rotation of the shoulder joint is mostly anatomically independent of forearm rotation. This is from the perspective of a right handed player.

[royourboat]

To those of you who are doing the ER of right shoulder on Down Swing....will pulling the Inside of the right Shoulder Blade in toward the Spine accomplish this? Thanks.

 

No. But as you increase ER of the right shoulder you might get some scap retraction naturally.

[Kirk Land]

Trail shoulder: IR to ER (P2 to P6) is loading ... ER to IR (P6 to P10) is unloading

 

The concept to be connected means to load and stay loaded through impact.

 

Any unloading prior to impact, will create slack which means power leakage in full shots and short shots

 

A horse drawn wagon going up hill becomes loaded with all slack taken out of the lines and full power is applied to the wagon.

 

Downhill, there is unloading and slack with much less power transmission.

 

When body stalls in DS, we become unloaded. Some who think they fire their trail hip at impact create more slack.

 

"AT ONE AND THE SAME TIME, THE MUSCLES OF THE RIGHT HIP AND THE MUSCLES OF THE RIGHT THIGH-BOTH THE INSIDE AND THE POWERFUL OUTSIDE THIGH MUSCLES-START TO MOVE THE RIGHT HIP FORWARD."

- Ben Hogan, 5L

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Perhaps we have different definitions or concepts of "loading and unloading". I'm referring to the release of his Power Accumulators (PA4, PA1, PA2, PA3), not stalling the pivot. Left arm has already started to release but the club has to kick out to get down to the ball ... in Hogan's case that requires UD, the right index finger pushing against the handle and some CCW right forearm rotation from P6 to P7 to go from supinated to neutral. As the right hand starts to lead the right elbow in the same interval, that puts him in IR.

 

 

5L, page 90

Your quote from 5L, is describing the turning of the hips at the beginning of DS, not into impact.

 

The right hip is in position at beginning of DS to be pivot for bent right elbow when body rotation squares the clubface at impact

fully connected, without slack.

[asterisk]

Another incorrect statement from Mr. fantasy land ...the body rotation does not square the club face at impact. That's a proven fact not some uninformed opinion like Land's!!

[Cool Hand Luke]

Been playing around with this for a few weeks now with some better than expected results. I have definitely noticed more consistency with regards to trajectory and dispersion. And the improvement in chipping/pitching has been significant and came pretty quick. My only thought/feel has been to keep the right shoulder behind my right ear (at least that's what it feels like) and at the same distance as long as possible throughout the transition and DS. I've noticed this forces me to get into right lateral bend earlier which is something I've always struggled with.

 

Question for the OP or anyone else who has been experimenting with this: how long does this take to just feel natural? still seems quite forced to me but it's only been a few weeks...

 

cheers

[MonteScheinblum]

Have to get your right elbow moving correctly... in the right direction and at the right time...

 

...or this ER can't happen.

[Nard_S]

Been playing around with this for a few weeks now with some better than expected results. I have definitely noticed more consistency with regards to trajectory and dispersion. And the improvement in chipping/pitching has been significant and came pretty quick. My only thought/feel has been to keep the right shoulder behind my right ear (at least that's what it feels like) and at the same distance as long as possible throughout the transition and DS. I've noticed this forces me to get into right lateral bend earlier which is something I've always struggled with.

 

Question for the OP or anyone else who has been experimenting with this: how long does this take to just feel natural? still seems quite forced to me but it's only been a few weeks...

 

cheers

 

^^^^^^^ What Monte says.........the two are intertwined. Good elbow behavior begets good ER..........it's why I have tasted it but it has been fleeting too.

 

So, it can take a while, I'm at several months and "Thor Smash" still won't die (bastxxx!) :)

 

Good thread.