2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule

[Newby]

Use the teeing area if it is closely mown

This makes sense, but the LR has the following restriction:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

If the "Fairway Reference Point" is on the teeing area, 200 yards away from where the ball is likely to be lost, I'd say this isn't in "the general area". Is it possible that the Local Rule couldn't be used in this circumstance?

Yes, I should have said use a the ground surrounding your teeing area or the teeing area of another hole.

I must admit the RBs don't seem to have anticipated this. Nor what to do with a fairway-less par 3.

It may well be that the LR simply can't be used.

[rogolf]

Use the teeing area if it is closely mown

This makes sense, but the LR has the following restriction:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

If the "Fairway Reference Point" is on the teeing area, 200 yards away from where the ball is likely to be lost, I'd say this isn't in "the general area". Is it possible that the Local Rule couldn't be used in this circumstance?

I think it could still be used. The "relief area" in the LR is not confined to closely-mown parts of the general area. It could also be on other teeing grounds (the teeing area only applies to the tee markers the player is playing from on that hole).

[davep043]

Use the teeing area if it is closely mown

This makes sense, but the LR has the following restriction:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

If the "Fairway Reference Point" is on the teeing area, 200 yards away from where the ball is likely to be lost, I'd say this isn't in "the general area". Is it possible that the Local Rule couldn't be used in this circumstance?

I think it could still be used. The "relief area" in the LR is not confined to closely-mown parts of the general area. It could also be on other teeing grounds (the teeing area only applies to the tee markers the player is playing from on that hole).

The "relief area" is largely NOT in closely mown areas, the way I read the LR, most of it will be in the rough.. However, the "fairway reference point" refers to the fairway of the hole being played, not the teeing ground of another hole. I just don't understand the limitation that the "relief area" must be in the general area. The general area of what? In the case in point, there is simply no location in the fairway of the hole being played that is not closer to the hole, no "fairway reference point" exists within the definition. Would it be acceptable in that case to drop within 2 clublengths of where the ball is thought to be lost?

[SNIPERBBB]

Use the teeing area if it is closely mown

This makes sense, but the LR has the following restriction:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

If the "Fairway Reference Point" is on the teeing area, 200 yards away from where the ball is likely to be lost, I'd say this isn't in "the general area". Is it possible that the Local Rule couldn't be used in this circumstance?

Yes, I should have said use a the ground surrounding your teeing area or the teeing area of another hole.

I must admit the RBs don't seem to have anticipated this. Nor what to do with a fairway-less par 3.

It may well be that the LR simply can't be used.

 

I can't see a situation where you can't use the LR.. it's more whether it would benefit you to take the option. We have several holes on my home course where you're much better off taking S&D than you would be to take the LR. Some of the par 3s here with water hazards you are better off reteeing than to take the other drop options.

[rogolf]

Use the teeing area if it is closely mown

This makes sense, but the LR has the following restriction:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

If the "Fairway Reference Point" is on the teeing area, 200 yards away from where the ball is likely to be lost, I'd say this isn't in "the general area". Is it possible that the Local Rule couldn't be used in this circumstance?

I think it could still be used. The "relief area" in the LR is not confined to closely-mown parts of the general area. It could also be on other teeing grounds (the teeing area only applies to the tee markers the player is playing from on that hole).

The "relief area" is largely NOT in closely mown areas, the way I read the LR, most of it will be in the rough.. However, the "fairway reference point" refers to the fairway of the hole being played, not the teeing ground of another hole. I just don't understand the limitation that the "relief area" must be in the general area. The general area of what? In the case in point, there is simply no location in the fairway of the hole being played that is not closer to the hole, no "fairway reference point" exists within the definition. Would it be acceptable in that case to drop within 2 clublengths of where the ball is thought to be lost?

"General area" is the new language, replacing "through the green". It is the entire course except the teeing area and putting green of the hole being played, penalty areas and bunkers. Imo, the "fairway reference point" only defines one side of the relief area (the ball's estimated location defines the other side).

[davep043]

Use the teeing area if it is closely mown

This makes sense, but the LR has the following restriction:

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

If the "Fairway Reference Point" is on the teeing area, 200 yards away from where the ball is likely to be lost, I'd say this isn't in "the general area". Is it possible that the Local Rule couldn't be used in this circumstance?

Yes, I should have said use a the ground surrounding your teeing area or the teeing area of another hole.

I must admit the RBs don't seem to have anticipated this. Nor what to do with a fairway-less par 3.

It may well be that the LR simply can't be used.

 

I can't see a situation where you can't use the LR.. it's more whether it would benefit you to take the option. We have several holes on my home course where you're much better off taking S&D than you would be to take the LR. Some of the par 3s here with water hazards you are better off reteeing than to take the other drop options.

The rules define a relief area based on two points, the ball, and the fairway reference. If there isn't any fairway, there isn't a fairway reference point. So how do you define the relief area? This might be something to be decided on a club-by-club and hole-by-hole basis, the local rule doesn't need to be ineffect on every hole.

[SNIPERBBB]

You'd have to come to a tee box for the FRP or a grass path.

[SNIPERBBB]

. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

[rogolf]

Interesting discussion. I wonder what defines the edge of the "relief area" if there is no fairway reference point?

[SNIPERBBB]

See above post

[rogolf]

. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

For purposes of this Local Rule, "fairway" means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

 

The bolded part defines "fairway" for this local Rule. The red part refers to "fairway of the hole being played" - it doesn't include the fairway of any other hole. (isn't this where we started?)

[SNIPERBBB]

Last paragraph

[davep043]

. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

For purposes of this Local Rule, "fairway" means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

This makes sense, but I didn't read this when I was on the USGA website. Can you show me where you found it?

[SNIPERBBB]

On the rules app it's under Committee Procedures, Model Local Rules, 8e, E-5

 

On the web, http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/committee-procedures/rule-8.html

[SNIPERBBB]

Had to find the web side because for some reason you can't copy text from the new app, not that the old app was any better.

[rogolf]

Still confined to the "hole being played". And their use of the word "may" suggests that they (path or teeing ground) may not exist. Then what?

[SNIPERBBB]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

[HitEmTrue]

Still confined to the "hole being played". And their use of the word "may" suggests that they (path or teeing ground) may not exist. Then what?

 

It doesn’t mean that the teeing ground may not exist. It is saying that the fairway reference point may not exist.

[Newby]

. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

For purposes of this Local Rule, "fairway" means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

This makes sense, but I didn't read this when I was on the USGA website. Can you show me where you found it?

 

I thought I had seen this but your quote made me think I was mistaken. Happier now because I had previously told some club members my original posting

[Mr. Bean]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

 

You start a hole by making a stroke at a ball on that hole. Whether that ball is on the teeing area does not make any difference, you have started to play that hole.

[SNIPERBBB]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

 

You start a hole by making a stroke at a ball on that hole. Whether that ball is on the teeing area does not make any difference, you have started to play that hole.

 

There is still a teeing area for someone,(though taken strictly...you could only use YOUR round's teeing area as the FRP) regardless if you decided you wanted to tee off from under a bush!(happens in superintendent revenge setups.

[rogolf]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

You start a hole by playing from the "teeing area" (new language). I presumed that "teeing ground" refers to other tee boxes (not your own teeing area), which are part of the general area.

[Mr. Bean]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

 

You start a hole by making a stroke at a ball on that hole. Whether that ball is on the teeing area does not make any difference, you have started to play that hole.

 

There is still a teeing area for someone,(though taken strictly...you could only use YOUR round's teeing area as the FRP) regardless if you decided you wanted to tee off from under a bush!(happens in superintedemt revenge setups.

 

It does not matter. Once you tee your ball and make a stroke at it you have started that hole. Depending on the spot you made that stroke from determines how you must continue.

 

All clear?

[SNIPERBBB]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

 

You start a hole by making a stroke at a ball on that hole. Whether that ball is on the teeing area does not make any difference, you have started to play that hole.

 

There is still a teeing area for someone,(though taken strictly...you could only use YOUR round's teeing area as the FRP) regardless if you decided you wanted to tee off from under a bush!(happens in superintedemt revenge setups.

 

It does not matter. Once you tee your ball and make a stroke at it you have started that hole. Depending on the spot you made that stroke from determines how you must continue.

 

All clear?

 

I wasnt trying to go in the weeds...the point was there is going to a tee box for the hole to be make the FRP for the OB LR option.

[rogolf]

How do you start a hole without playing from a teeing ground?

 

You start a hole by making a stroke at a ball on that hole. Whether that ball is on the teeing area does not make any difference, you have started to play that hole.

 

There is still a teeing area for someone,(though taken strictly...you could only use YOUR round's teeing area as the FRP) regardless if you decided you wanted to tee off from under a bush!(happens in superintedemt revenge setups.

 

It does not matter. Once you tee your ball and make a stroke at it you have started that hole. Depending on the spot you made that stroke from determines how you must continue.

 

All clear?

 

I wasnt trying to go in the weeds...the point was there is going to a tee box for the hole to be make the FRP for the OB LR option.

 

Normally that's true, although it needs to be on the hole being played and it might be quite a distance behind the spot where the ball was lost or went out of bounds.

[Colin L]

In the absence of a fairway reference point there can be a relief area. Take the line from the hole through where your ball is likely to be. The relief area is the two club length wide strip running parallel with the line from the hole on the side away from the fairway, from the spot not nearer the hole as far back as is possible. Not generally much use if your ball went out of bounds, but a possibility for a ball not found.

[SNIPERBBB]

That was in the original draft proposal but I haven't seen that in the current?

[Colin L]

That was in the original draft proposal but I haven't seen that in the current?

 

The edges of the relief area are two club lengths from the lines drawn a) from the the hole through where the ball is estimated to be or to have crossed the boundary and b) from the hole through a point on the edge of the fairway not nearer the hole. That's shown in the left hand diagram, the relief area being shown in yellow.

 

My thought is that where the ground is entirely rough to past where your ball is estimated to be and you therefore cannot establish the fairway reference point, there is nonetheless an area of relief two club lengths from the line from the hole through where your ball is thought to be. That's shown in the right hand diagram.

 

Obviously, I'm not asserting this as being definitely the case and will get an opinion from higher up.

 

 

[Newby]

Colin

Diagram 2

 

How does that work if the RH reference point is on the OOB margin?

[Colin L]

It doesn't. I don't at the moment see it being of any use for a ball out of bounds.