2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule

[Newby]

No wonder we can't get to grips with what happens (or doesn't happen) over there.

So I suppose 2019 & WHS are somewhat irrelevant to many ;)

[SNIPERBBB]

Last time I talked to our pros, they were not planning in implementing the local rule. Don’t know if that is still the same or not.

Doesn't the committee make the decisions at your club?

Surely pros are paid to do what they are told.

 

Many clubs in Yankeeland owned by an individual or a corporation are, apart from a Handicap Committee, without Golf Committees and Greens Committees.

 

I would bet that most public or semi privates dont even have a true handicap committee. The bigger ones probably do but I would doubt the more rural ones do.

[Sawgrass]

No wonder we can't get to grips with what happens (or doesn't happen) over there.

So I suppose 2019 & WHS are somewhat irrelevant to many ;)

As to WHS, Sui did mention handicap committees.

 

As to 2019, if no competition committee exists, the "person or group" in charge of the course takes care of selecting LRs and all else. Having that be a pro isn't odd, considering that the alternative is the course owner.

[deadsolid...shank]

Last time I talked to our pros, they were not planning in implementing the local rule. Don’t know if that is still the same or not.

Doesn't the committee make the decisions at your club?

Surely pros are paid to do what they are told.

 

This one falls in between the various committees and will basically fall to the discretion of the pro. One thing for certain though, he will talk to, and solicit opinions from, just about every member who walks into the shop. He’s very good at listening to the members.

 

Now, if a few of the real big dogs decide to weigh in with their opinions, I’m sure they will carry more weight.

[deadsolid...shank]

Last time I talked to our pros, they were not planning in implementing the local rule. Don’t know if that is still the same or not.

Doesn't the committee make the decisions at your club?

Surely pros are paid to do what they are told.

 

Many clubs in Yankeeland owned by an individual or a corporation are, apart from a Handicap Committee, without Golf Committees and Greens Committees.

 

I would bet that most public or semi privates dont even have a true handicap committee. The bigger ones probably do but I would doubt the more rural ones do.

 

We are probably midsized and private. We have a handicap committee, a greens committee, and a tournament committee. But as I said in the previous post, this one is going to fall in between them.

[sui generis]

Last time I talked to our pros, they were not planning in implementing the local rule. Don’t know if that is still the same or not.

Doesn't the committee make the decisions at your club?

Surely pros are paid to do what they are told.

 

Many clubs in Yankeeland owned by an individual or a corporation are, apart from a Handicap Committee, without Golf Committees and Greens Committees.

 

I would bet that most public or semi privates dont even have a true handicap committee. The bigger ones probably do but I would doubt the more rural ones do.

 

We are probably midsized and private. We have a handicap committee, a greens committee, and a tournament committee. But as I said in the previous post, this one is going to fall in between them.

 

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

[deadsolid...shank]

 

Last time I talked to our pros, they were not planning in implementing the local rule. Don’t know if that is still the same or not.

Doesn't the committee make the decisions at your club?

Surely pros are paid to do what they are told.

 

 

Many clubs in Yankeeland owned by an individual or a corporation are, apart from a Handicap Committee, without Golf Committees and Greens Committees.

 

I would bet that most public or semi privates dont even have a true handicap committee. The bigger ones probably do but I would doubt the more rural ones do.

 

We are probably midsized and private. We have a handicap committee, a greens committee, and a tournament committee. But as I said in the previous post, this one is going to fall in between them.

 

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

That’s a great idea Sui. The way it’s officially written, I do think there was/is a lot of confusion. Our pros weren’t even sure about the procedure. I sent them an illustration that someone posted here to try make it a little clearer.

[Sawgrass]

Doesn't the committee make the decisions at your club?

Surely pros are paid to do what they are told.

 

Many clubs in Yankeeland owned by an individual or a corporation are, apart from a Handicap Committee, without Golf Committees and Greens Committees.

 

I would bet that most public or semi privates dont even have a true handicap committee. The bigger ones probably do but I would doubt the more rural ones do.

 

We are probably midsized and private. We have a handicap committee, a greens committee, and a tournament committee. But as I said in the previous post, this one is going to fall in between them.

 

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

So, if I drop three club-lengths from the edge of the fairway, back toward the presumed location of my lost ball which is 10 club-lengths from the fairway edge, and no closer to the hole than the presumed location of the lost ball -- by your LR I've played from a wrong place, right? Even though by the MLR E-5 I would have been fine.

 

I'm unsure whether such an adjustment to the model LR is legal. Are you?

[sui generis]

@ Sawgrass, my LR is a little more restrictive than the Model. That's intentional. These jokers won't read anything longer than one sentence. :) For general play, we aim for "pretty good" at the expense of "perfect."

[KevCarter]

 

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

Very nice Sui. I hope you don't mind if I steal that? Oh, I better wait until somebody at my club finds out the rules have changed and tells me to do it... :D :D :D

[Sawgrass]

 

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

Very nice Sui. I hope you don't mind if I steal that? Oh, I better wait until somebody at my club finds out the rules have changed and tells me to do it... :D :D :D

Ahh, the Legend returns! Happy New Year to all!

[sui generis]

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

Very nice Sui. I hope you don't mind if I steal that? Oh, I better wait until somebody at my club finds out the rules have changed and tells me to do it... :D :D :D

 

Fill your boots, Kev. It's not perfect, but I know my course well enough that the thousand other places a player could take relief under the Model Local Rule would be never be used if they could drop it near the edge of the fairway. Of course, we'll all revisit this after a few months. ;)

[KevCarter]

 

Cheers Howie!

[KevCarter]

Fill your boots, Kev. It's not perfect, but I know my course well enough that the thousand other places a player could take relief under the Model Local Rule would be never be used if they could drop it near the edge of the fairway. Of course, we'll all revisit this after a few months. ;)

 

Cheers Sui!

[Newby]

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

 

Really?

[sui generis]

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

 

Really?

 

What if the Local Rule said:

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, no closer to the hole than where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

I'm not sure why anyone would want to drop any further from the hole than the prescribed two club-lengths, though. My audience wants it simple . . . we aim to please. ;)

[Newby]

I'll go with that.

[nsxguy]

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

So, if I drop three club-lengths from the edge of the fairway, back toward the presumed location of my lost ball which is 10 club-lengths from the fairway edge, and no closer to the hole than the presumed location of the lost ball -- by your LR I've played from a wrong place, right? Even though by the MLR E-5 I would have been fine.

 

I'm unsure whether such an adjustment to the model LR is legal. Are you?

 

OK, after explaining this to some of my guys today after the round I went to the "Model Local Rules" to make sure I had this one right as this will be one of the more frequent applications starting tomorrow.

 

And yeah, the MLR is pretty long but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

3 questions to Sui. Why "red" penalty area ? Why haven't you even mentioned BOL relief ? And as Saw suggests, why haven't you mentioned relief between where it was thought to have gone out/been lost and the fairway ? Is it acceptable to exclude those options from your Local Rule ?

 

And Saw, ya almost got me with that "3 club lengths" thing. :lol:

 

HNY all !!!

[sui generis]

At our place the dozen or so folks who care even a little about the Rules were surprised to hear that it takes a Local Rule to have the LB/OB alternative.

 

I write Local Rules for our club and it took me quite some time to write a Local Rule that was both conforming and easy to understand. It looks like this:

 

----------------

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

 

----------------

 

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

So, if I drop three club-lengths from the edge of the fairway, back toward the presumed location of my lost ball which is 10 club-lengths from the fairway edge, and no closer to the hole than the presumed location of the lost ball -- by your LR I've played from a wrong place, right? Even though by the MLR E-5 I would have been fine.

 

I'm unsure whether such an adjustment to the model LR is legal. Are you?

 

OK, after explaining this to some of my guys today after the round I went to the "Model Local Rules" to make sure I had this one right as this will be one of the more frequent applications starting tomorrow.

 

And yeah, the MLR is pretty long but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

3 questions to Sui. Why "red" penalty area ? Why haven't you even mentioned BOL relief ? And as Saw suggests, why haven't you mentioned relief between where it was thought to have gone out/been lost and the fairway ? Is it acceptable to exclude those options from your Local Rule ?

 

And Saw, ya almost got me with that "3 club lengths" thing. :lol:

 

HNY all !!!

 

1) We only have red stakes, as of tomorrow,

 

2) the reality is that anything which doesn't fit on a bumper sticker is a lost cause here (and most places, I suspect).

At my club there's about nowhere that a player would prefer to drop other than the nearest fairway edge, and

 

3) Committees may limit Local Rules.

 

We're after simplicity for general play. This Local Rule will not be operative for club sponsored competitions.

[Newby]

d

 

3) Committees may limit Local Rules.

 

 

I'm not at all sure about this. IMO the only limitations are where the LR itself makes specific mention. eg preferred lies. Otherwise you would be restricting the player's rights ie waiving a rule.

[sui generis]

d

 

3) Committees may limit Local Rules.

 

 

I'm not at all sure about this. IMO the only limitations are where the LR itself makes specific mention. eg preferred lies. Otherwise you would be restricting the player's rights ie waiving a rule.

 

I'm not at all sure about what you're "not at all sure about." :)

[sui generis]

Succumbing to peer pressure the new, new local, Local Rule now says:

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

This Local Rule may not be used:

 

1) if a provisional ball is in play, or

2) for a ball not found in a red penalty area, or

3) for an unplayable ball.

-----------

Or as an alternative to the alternative local Local Rule a player may do this:

 

“When a player’s ball has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds, the player may proceed as follows rather than proceeding under stroke and distance.

 

For two penalty strokes, the player may take relief by dropping the original ball or another ball in this relief area (see Rule 14.3):

 

Two Estimated Reference Points:

 

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have:

 

Come to rest on the course, or

 

Last crossed the edge of the course boundary to go out of bounds.

 

b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

 

Size of Relief Area Based on Reference Points: Anywhere between:

 

A line from the hole through the ball reference point (and within two club-lengths to the outside of that line), and

 

A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line).

 

But with these limits:

 

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

 

Must be in the general area, and

 

Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

Once the player puts a ball in play under this Local Rule:

 

The original ball that was lost or out of bounds is no longer in play and must not be played.

 

This is true even if the ball is found on the course before the end of the three-minute search time (see Rule 6.3b).

 

But the player may not use this option to take relief for the original ball when:

 

That ball is known or virtually certain to have come to rest in a penalty area, or

 

The player has played another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.3).

 

A player may use this option to take relief for a provisional ball that has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds.

 

Penalty for Playing Ball from a Wrong Place in Breach of Local Rule: General Penalty Under Rule 14.7a.”

---------------------

This will require some mighty small print to fit on the scorecard. :)

[Newby]

Succumbing to peer pressure the new, new local, Local Rule now says:

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

I must say, I like it but I am not convinced that the RBS would accept it as an authorised local rule (or whatever the 2019 speak is).

I hope you will put it to the USGA.

 

My concern re general play use is that under the WHS (ultimately but now in the US) general play will qualify for handicap scores providing they are played to the RoG.

[sui generis]

Succumbing to peer pressure the new, new local, Local Rule now says:

 

Local Rule 2 - If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths of the nearest edge of the fairway, at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes.

 

I must say, I like it but I am not convinced that the RBS would accept it as an authorised local rule (or whatever the 2019 speak is).

I hope you will put it to the USGA.

 

My concern re general play use is that under the WHS (ultimately but now in the US) general play will qualify for handicap scores providing they are played to the RoG.

 

Does this proposal provide anything in excess of what the 435 word + diagrams allows?

[Holy Moses]

Just to clarify, if you hit your drive OB and the particular course is implementing the new OB rule, you are playing your fourth shot from the edge of the fairway where your ball went out of bounds?

[nsxguy]

Just to clarify, if you hit your drive OB and the particular course is implementing the new OB rule, you are playing your fourth shot from the edge of the fairway where you ball went out of bounds?

 

Yes

 

 

[Colin L]

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

The problem with that, as been pointed out, is that it restricts the relief area available under the rule and that doesn't seem permissible.

 

Why don't you use the short version from the R&A Rules Creator

https://www.randa.org/en/rog/2019/pages/local-rules-creator

 

When a player’s ball has not been found or is known or virtually certain to be out of bounds, the player may proceed under the Stroke and Distance Local Rule for a penalty of two strokes, rather than proceeding under stroke and distance. This Local Rule is not available if a provisional ball has been played. See Model Local Rule E-5 for full details of the Local Rule.

 

 

[ruca]

Just to clarify, if you hit your drive OB and the particular course is implementing the new OB rule, you are playing your fourth shot from the edge of the fairway where you ball went out of bounds?

 

Yes

 

 

 

For clubs wishing to use this local rule, it would be clearer and less wordy to print the above on the scorecard.

 

Btw, why is the green circular area not part of the relief area in the diagram above?

[sui generis]

The Model Local Rule is 400 words long and the words alone don't conjure up an easy mental picture of what the player may do. My version is a little more restrictive than the original, but to my mind might be more easily complied with.

 

I've managed to reduce our local rules to 587 words in total without this one. When we eventually adopt it, I'll not be wanting to add that number just for one rule! My efforts so far to draft a succinct statement have not worked because of what you have seemingly found. To keep it really short you have to miss out how you determine the full extent of the potentially huge relief area available and I don't think I should do that.

 

I've opted to suggest to the player that he drop in an unequivocally "right place." Indeed there are many other "right places" in the Model Rule, but I will always, for general play, choose simplicity over rigor. Better compliance beats perfection here.

 

On Sunday morning for the North Carolina Amateur Championship a different Rules hat will be worn. :)

[sui generis]

Just to clarify, if you hit your drive OB and the particular course is implementing the new OB rule, you are playing your fourth shot from the edge of the fairway where your ball went out of bounds?

 

Think of your drop as landing in the spot where your provisional, had you hit one, might have ended up. So, yes, playing your fourth.