2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule

[Sawgrass]

The FRP I've shown is the nearest area with grass cut to fairway height or less, i.e. the forward tee. I believe that's consistent with the wording in the rule I've quoted.

 

So this hole has no apron and no fairway of any kind..? That is, NO General Area but the teeing ground..?

 

That would be amazing...

We find it amazing as well, but the only thing cut to fairway height is the 4 feet or so of green surround. The rest is rough, or worse. If I was smarter, I could find a way to link the location through Google Earth, but I'm lacking in that skill.

 

 

 

Then again, isn't that a situation where you take your medicine and re-tee..?

I might not re-tee. I can drop in the rough 20 yards or so from the hole instead of 150 yards away, starting all over again, risking the ob once again.

[davep043]

 

If the general area includes rough - why cant you just drop in the rough if a fairway or other teeing ground or mowed walkway is not available?

You should read the local rule in its entirety. It specifies a procedure, and one of the steps is to define a Fairway Reference Point, which essentially defines one side of the acceptable Relief Area. The end result is much as you suggest, a drop in the rough, but the formal definition of the available Relief Area takes a few more steps.

[Roadking2003]

What makes you think that the rules always require you to putt out?

 

What makes you think I ever said they did?

.

 

The implication from this odd quote of yours, # 238:

 

 

Quite possibly, but my observation while in other countries is that they also don't putt out 100% of the time. So, not playing by the rules.

 

Got it.

[bladehunter]

This Local Rule is way too difficult to be handled by everyday golfers...

 

A very elitist comment. Are you saying you are more intelligent or cleverer than most of the worlds golfers? A bold claim indeed.

 

True story.

 

Posted this last night in another thread when the topic segwayed to this rule.

 

My clubs committee voted not to inact this rule yesterday morning ... the reason. The complication of the drop. I wasn’t there. But a person who was called me last night and said they had a 30 min argument trying to decipher the rule and the drop ... finally declared it “ stupid “ and then unanimously voted no. Lol. Which is hilarious if you knew these know it alls. The drop was cited as the main Hangup.

[Newby]

This could make life easier for those who cannot understand

 

https://rulesgeeks.com/2019/01/new-local-rule-for-lost-ball-or-ball-out-of-bounds/

[sui generis]

This Local Rule is way too difficult to be handled by everyday golfers...

 

A very elitist comment. Are you saying you are more intelligent or cleverer than most of the worlds golfers? A bold claim indeed.

 

True story.

 

Posted this last night in another thread when the topic segwayed to this rule.

 

My clubs committee voted not to inact this rule yesterday morning ... the reason. The complication of the drop. I wasn't there. But a person who was called me last night and said they had a 30 min argument trying to decipher the rule and the drop ... finally declared it " stupid " and then unanimously voted no. Lol. Which is hilarious if you knew these know it alls. The drop was cited as the main Hangup.

 

What does it say about human nature that grown men will spends hours and hours on the range and thousands on stuff, yet be unwilling to figure out a Rule that's designed to help them play?

 

Take a look at Newby's link above. :)

[davep043]

This Local Rule is way too difficult to be handled by everyday golfers...

 

A very elitist comment. Are you saying you are more intelligent or cleverer than most of the worlds golfers? A bold claim indeed.

 

True story.

 

Posted this last night in another thread when the topic segwayed to this rule.

 

My clubs committee voted not to inact this rule yesterday morning ... the reason. The complication of the drop. I wasn't there. But a person who was called me last night and said they had a 30 min argument trying to decipher the rule and the drop ... finally declared it " stupid " and then unanimously voted no. Lol. Which is hilarious if you knew these know it alls. The drop was cited as the main Hangup.

 

What does it say about human nature that grown men will spends hours and hours on the range and thousands on stuff, yet be unwilling to figure out a Rule that's designed to help them play?

 

Take a look at Newby's link above. :)

Even worse, that men and women will make huge amounts of money playing the game, treat it as their full-time career, and spend next to zero time learning the rules that govern their profession.

[bladehunter]

This Local Rule is way too difficult to be handled by everyday golfers...

 

A very elitist comment. Are you saying you are more intelligent or cleverer than most of the worlds golfers? A bold claim indeed.

 

True story.

 

Posted this last night in another thread when the topic segwayed to this rule.

 

My clubs committee voted not to inact this rule yesterday morning ... the reason. The complication of the drop. I wasn't there. But a person who was called me last night and said they had a 30 min argument trying to decipher the rule and the drop ... finally declared it " stupid " and then unanimously voted no. Lol. Which is hilarious if you knew these know it alls. The drop was cited as the main Hangup.

 

What does it say about human nature that grown men will spends hours and hours on the range and thousands on stuff, yet be unwilling to figure out a Rule that's designed to help them play?

 

Take a look at Newby's link above. :)

 

i did ... rear the entire article 3 times an honestly still am not sure i could drop it in the right place... and the diagrams ...they just confuse the issue ...

 

on top of that .. the starting point is a blind guess... you rarely know where a ball went if its OB... maybe plus or minus 20 yards ? I could be just as accurate walking up and plopping a ball down anywhere in the fairway relatively close to where i think it went out ....in my opinion .. which is exactly what the average joe does anyway .

 

 

Look im not arguing against the option for the rule.. I just dont possibly see how the avergage joe , whos barely qualified to drive the cart safely , is supposed to figure out this 8th grade geometry problem in any short amount of time?

 

 

Ill also fully admit to a mental block , or learning issue with things like this .. I see 450 words on a page with this rule and get zero meaning from it when i read it ... equidistant , etc are words i know the meaning of , but yet in sentence it does not translate to a language i understand . it doesnt paint any picture in my head , if that makes sense ? Its always been an issue for me .. I even have trouble finding things on menus in restaurants sometimes, depending on the structure of the text or format of the listings.. why ? no clue.. so it maybe just me ..But its not on purpose.. The rules in general confound me when reading them . Why cant it just read " drop 2 club lengths into the fairway beside where ball went OB , no closer to the hole...." or similar to align with the rule?.

[bladehunter]

This Local Rule is way too difficult to be handled by everyday golfers...

 

A very elitist comment. Are you saying you are more intelligent or cleverer than most of the worlds golfers? A bold claim indeed.

 

True story.

 

Posted this last night in another thread when the topic segwayed to this rule.

 

My clubs committee voted not to inact this rule yesterday morning ... the reason. The complication of the drop. I wasn't there. But a person who was called me last night and said they had a 30 min argument trying to decipher the rule and the drop ... finally declared it " stupid " and then unanimously voted no. Lol. Which is hilarious if you knew these know it alls. The drop was cited as the main Hangup.

 

What does it say about human nature that grown men will spends hours and hours on the range and thousands on stuff, yet be unwilling to figure out a Rule that's designed to help them play?

 

Take a look at Newby's link above. :)

Even worse, that men and women will make huge amounts of money playing the game, treat it as their full-time career, and spend next to zero time learning the rules that govern their profession.

 

 

Dave .... I think youve hit on one of the things that is a major divider in the "us vs them" rules debates. The guys who are experts are generally offended by guys who play at a high level and just dont feel the need to know much when it come to the rules. and i get that to a point. But i also get the other side quite well . It goes like this . Unless you are truly a card carrying expert , you just cant effectively decide much of anything minus an official ..Too much on the line to not be sure. so you call for a ruling ..for almost everything .. You get it certified to CYA.. period. The only smart way to fly . I personally do not believe theres enough time in the day to be an elite player AND a rules expert... Id love to meet that animal , id shake his or her hand.

[sui generis]

This Local Rule is way too difficult to be handled by everyday golfers...

 

A very elitist comment. Are you saying you are more intelligent or cleverer than most of the worlds golfers? A bold claim indeed.

 

True story.

 

Posted this last night in another thread when the topic segwayed to this rule.

 

My clubs committee voted not to inact this rule yesterday morning ... the reason. The complication of the drop. I wasn't there. But a person who was called me last night and said they had a 30 min argument trying to decipher the rule and the drop ... finally declared it " stupid " and then unanimously voted no. Lol. Which is hilarious if you knew these know it alls. The drop was cited as the main Hangup.

 

What does it say about human nature that grown men will spends hours and hours on the range and thousands on stuff, yet be unwilling to figure out a Rule that's designed to help them play?

 

Take a look at Newby's link above. :)

 

i did ... rear the entire article 3 times an honestly still am not sure i could drop it in the right place... and the diagrams ...they just confuse the issue ...

 

on top of that .. the starting point is a blind guess... you rarely know where a ball went if its OB... maybe plus or minus 20 yards ? I could be just as accurate walking up and plopping a ball down anywhere in the fairway relatively close to where i think it went out ....in my opinion .. which is exactly what the average joe does anyway .

 

 

Look im not arguing against the option for the rule.. I just dont possibly see how the avergage joe , whos barely qualified to drive the cart safely , is supposed to figure out this 8th grade geometry problem in any short amount of time?

 

 

Ill also fully admit to a mental block , or learning issue with things like this .. I see 450 words on a page with this rule and get zero meaning from it when i read it ... equidistant , etc are words i know the meaning of , but yet in sentence it does not translate to a language i understand . it doesnt paint any picture in my head , if that makes sense ? Its always been an issue for me .. I even have trouble finding things on menus in restaurants sometimes, depending on the structure of the text or format of the listings.. why ? no clue.. so it maybe just me ..But its not on purpose.. The rules in general confound me when reading them . Why cant it just read " drop 2 club lengths into the fairway beside where ball went OB , no closer to the hole...." or similar to align with the rule?.

 

Would this work at your place:

 

Local Rule 2 – If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, Model Local Rule E-5 may be used. For instance, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths, but not nearer the hole, of the nearest edge of the fairway at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes. This Local Rule may not be used: 1) if a provisional ball is in play, or 2) for a ball in a penalty area, or 3) for an unplayable ball.

 

The source, with a small discussion, is here:

 

https://rulesgeeks.c...-out-of-bounds/

[bladehunter]

Sui- It very well may.

Hard for me to say. Our committee isn’t exactly logic minded.

 

And I recognize that from the article now. For some reason reading it here sequestered from the rest made it easier for me. .

 

Realizing that the block is mine. Sorry.

 

But I do have to ask. Do you not see the difference between that wording And the 400 some odd word USGA version ? Or is there more to it that I’m missing?

[Sawgrass]

 

 

Would this work at your place:

 

Local Rule 2 – If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, Model Local Rule E-5 may be used. For instance, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths, but not nearer the hole, of the nearest edge of the fairway at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes. This Local Rule may not be used: 1) if a provisional ball is in play, or 2) for a ball in a penalty area, or 3) for an unplayable ball.

 

The source, with a small discussion, is here:

 

https://rulesgeeks.c...-out-of-bounds/

Wait a minute!

 

I saw, with my very typing fingers, that exact description get presented, debated and modified right here, at good ole GolfWRX, under your tutelage. We need to know, are you a geek?

[sui generis]

Would this work at your place:

 

Local Rule 2 – If a ball is lost or out of bounds, as an alternative to stroke-and-distance relief, Model Local Rule E-5 may be used. For instance, a player may drop a ball within two club-lengths, but not nearer the hole, of the nearest edge of the fairway at an equal distance from the hole to where the ball was believed to be lost or went out of bounds and add two penalty strokes. This Local Rule may not be used: 1) if a provisional ball is in play, or 2) for a ball in a penalty area, or 3) for an unplayable ball.

 

The source, with a small discussion, is here:

 

https://rulesgeeks.c...-out-of-bounds/

Wait a minute!

 

I saw, with my very typing fingers, that exact description get presented, debated and modified right here, at good ole GolfWRX, under your tutelage. We need to know, are you a geek?

 

Aren't we all? ;)

[Mikey5e]

The FRP I've shown is the nearest area with grass cut to fairway height or less, i.e. the forward tee. I believe that's consistent with the wording in the rule I've quoted.

 

So this hole has no apron and no fairway of any kind..? That is, NO General Area but the teeing ground..?

 

That would be amazing...

We find it amazing as well, but the only thing cut to fairway height is the 4 feet or so of green surround. The rest is rough, or worse. If I was smarter, I could find a way to link the location through Google Earth, but I'm lacking in that skill.

 

 

 

Then again, isn't that a situation where you take your medicine and re-tee..?

I might not re-tee.

Although some will choose to do so, and waste a lot of time.

[Sawgrass]

Sui- It very well may.

Hard for me to say. Our committee isn't exactly logic minded.

 

And I recognize that from the article now. For some reason reading it here sequestered from the rest made it easier for me. .

 

Realizing that the block is mine. Sorry.

 

But I do have to ask. Do you not see the difference between that wording And the 400 some odd word USGA version ? Or is there more to it that I'm missing?

The official version provides much more freedom regarding where you may drop. If that one fairway spot had a problem with it, say low overhanging tree limbs, one would wish that they read the entire rule.

 

But if occasionally limiting one's self is worth the savings of bother to study the whole thing, that can be a fair deal. I have to say it takes a while to "get it" but when you do it pretty easily becomes "yours" forever.

[sui generis]

Sui- It very well may.

Hard for me to say. Our committee isn't exactly logic minded.

 

And I recognize that from the article now. For some reason reading it here sequestered from the rest made it easier for me. .

 

Realizing that the block is mine. Sorry.

 

But I do have to ask. Do you not see the difference between that wording And the 400 some odd word USGA version ? Or is there more to it that I'm missing?

 

What I see is the ruling bodies trying very hard to write an option for general play, on all sorts of golf courses all over the world, that gives players the maximum latitude to avoid the nightmare of stroke-and-distance or the horror of playing a provisional ball. This Local Rule cannot be made to fit on a bumper sticker.

[nsxguy]

Sui- It very well may.

Hard for me to say. Our committee isn't exactly logic minded.

 

And I recognize that from the article now. For some reason reading it here sequestered from the rest made it easier for me. .

 

Realizing that the block is mine. Sorry.

 

But I do have to ask. Do you not see the difference between that wording And the 400 some odd word USGA version ? Or is there more to it that I'm missing?

 

What I see is the ruling bodies trying very hard to write an option for general play, on all sorts of golf courses all over the world, that gives players the maximum latitude to avoid the nightmare of stroke-and-distance or the horror of playing a provisional ball. This Local Rule cannot be made to fit on a bumper sticker.

 

That's probably a big part of it. I'm far from a "rulie", but i don't find those options all that difficult to understand.

 

As an aside, a week ago when we first discussed the local rule after our round, a guy who runs a different group (who we know) overheard us, came over and said that if the LR is in effect a player CAN'T hit a provisional ball. I told him he was mistaken. He insisted he was correct. I insisted he was incorrect and left it at that rather than get into an argument.

 

Yesterday after the round he came over and told me we had a "misunderstanding" and that he had said that if the rule was in effect and you hit a provisional you couldn't take the option for the original ball. Of course I agreed with him (Red Sox fans :rolleyes: ) :lol:

 

To bh's point, problem is ubiquitous in the States as most of the sports we've all participated in are of the team variety and have officials refereeing the game itself. So if we do something wrong a whistle blows or an umpire calls us out (or safe) or whatever. We don't want to spend hour upon hour reading a rule book. Give us a bat and a ball or a basketball and a pair of sneakers and off we go.

 

IMO, most professional athletes know the rules in an extremely limited manner. And even in golf, at the highest levels, there are referees to help the players with options. The pro golfers know ALL their common options like hitting provisionals and watching where a ball last crossed, etc.

 

When they have a question there is an official nearby to give Rules guidance so no need for much more than a rather restricted scope of rules knowledge.

 

And actually, if a rules question comes up in a "real" tournament, most(?) players know to play 2 balls and get a ruling later on. If guys are playing their own 4-some they don't really care much if they get it "right", they only care that their group agrees and is good with the decision.

 

Clubs of golfers are a fair bit more particular I would think. Even my old muni club was pretty strict with the Rules. But even the golfers in my club were (really) only familiar with the most common rules; hazard drops, provisionals, S&D, ewtc.

 

I don't know how it is in the UK or the Continent or other parts of the world but that's my experience here in the States. :dntknw:

[sui generis]

Has this short clip been posted here yet?

 

[davep043]

Has this short clip been posted here yet?

 

Makes it seem pretty simple. Obviously there are more details in the entire rule, but that's the basics in a nutshell.

[DaveLeeNC]

Just to show biases, I like this rule for casual play. That said ...

 

I kind of "thought through" all the holes on six of the courses that I play often. I was searching for places where a ball OB or lost ball might be complicated WRT this new LR. I really could not think of many other than.

 

1) I think the LR should include a clause that if there is no FRP, then you cannot apply the rule. It should just say this, IMHO.

 

2) For the case of an area where a ball might be lost really near the green and there is really tough rough or water in this same area (e.g., greenside pond, ball probably in the water, but not KVC in the water), things can get kind of screwey.

 

But for the vast/vast majority of cases, this actually looks straight forward to me.

 

dave

[HitEmTrue]

Just to show biases, I like this rule for casual play. That said ...

 

I kind of "thought through" all the holes on six of the courses that I play often. I was searching for places where a ball OB or lost ball might be complicated WRT this new LR. I really could not think of many other than.

 

1) I think the LR should include a clause that if there is no FRP, then you cannot apply the rule. It should just say this, IMHO.

 

2) For the case of an area where a ball might be lost really near the green and there is really tough rough or water in this same area (e.g., greenside pond, ball probably in the water, but not KVC in the water), things can get kind of screwey.

 

But for the vast/vast majority of cases, this actually looks straight forward to me.

 

dave

 

There always is an FRP.

 

[Newby]

I suppose I should know but what is FRP?

[DaveLeeNC]

Just to show biases, I like this rule for casual play. That said ...

 

I kind of "thought through" all the holes on six of the courses that I play often. I was searching for places where a ball OB or lost ball might be complicated WRT this new LR. I really could not think of many other than.

 

1) I think the LR should include a clause that if there is no FRP, then you cannot apply the rule. It should just say this, IMHO.

 

2) For the case of an area where a ball might be lost really near the green and there is really tough rough or water in this same area (e.g., greenside pond, ball probably in the water, but not KVC in the water), things can get kind of screwey.

 

But for the vast/vast majority of cases, this actually looks straight forward to me.

 

dave

 

There always is an FRP.

 

Given the tee box, I guess that is correct

 

EXCEPT

 

I have played with a guy or two where I would not have guaranteed that every tee shot ended closer to the hole. But that wasn't my point (which I guess was in error).

 

Thx.

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

I suppose I should know but what is FRP?

 

Fairway Reference Point

 

dave (I am framing this as probably the only example in history where I told Newby something he didn't already know)

[Augster]

I suppose I should know but what is FRP?

 

Fairway Reference Point

 

dave (I am framing this as probably the only example in history where I told Newby something he didn't already know)

 

Lol. I wish it were me! I was trying to click as fast as I could but saw you already answered it. Trying to even the score a bit. Newby- X, Augster-0.

[Shilgy]

I suppose I should know but what is FRP?

 

Fairway Reference Point

 

dave (I am framing this as probably the only example in history where I told Newby something he didn't already know)

 

Lol. I wish it were me! I was trying to click as fast as I could but saw you already answered it. Trying to even the score a bit. Newby- X, Augster-0.

Could be worse Newby ~ ,Augster 0

[Newby]

[HitEmTrue]

Just to show biases, I like this rule for casual play. That said ...

 

I kind of "thought through" all the holes on six of the courses that I play often. I was searching for places where a ball OB or lost ball might be complicated WRT this new LR. I really could not think of many other than.

 

1) I think the LR should include a clause that if there is no FRP, then you cannot apply the rule. It should just say this, IMHO.

 

2) For the case of an area where a ball might be lost really near the green and there is really tough rough or water in this same area (e.g., greenside pond, ball probably in the water, but not KVC in the water), things can get kind of screwey.

 

But for the vast/vast majority of cases, this actually looks straight forward to me.

 

dave

 

There always is an FRP.

 

Given the tee box, I guess that is correct

 

davep043's illustration on the previous page nicely shows that the actual relief area is (potentially) much closer to the hole in this situation. Except for those guys you referred to.

[DaveLeeNC]

[

 

davep043's illustration on the previous page nicely shows that the actual relief area is (potentially) much closer to the hole in this situation. Except for those guys you referred to.

 

I assume what you are saying is the the relief area might have legal drops that are closer to the hole than is the FRP. Is that what you are saying (which I agree with)?

 

dave

 

ps. I did once see a guy (in the time of small driver clubheads) sky a ball such that it ended up about 10 yards behind him. FWIW, I don't believe that this guy had a FRP on that shot (there is always that one case ...)

[antip]

The FRP I've shown is the nearest area with grass cut to fairway height or less, i.e. the forward tee. I believe that's consistent with the wording in the rule I've quoted.

 

So this hole has no apron and no fairway of any kind..? That is, NO General Area but the teeing ground..?

 

That would be amazing...

That is a misunderstanding of the GA definition. There is plenty of GA in that (excellent) diagram (everything except PA,Bunkers, TA and PG of the hole being played).