2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule

[rogolf]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave

It would be very unusual that there were two fairway reference points that are both not nearer the hole and an equal distance from the ball reference point. If that were to happen, I guess the player would have a choice.

[davep043]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave

It seems like we all agree that the FRP will be on one edge of the fairway or the other, for the drawing under discussion now. It is possible that these two points, one on each edge of the fair way, and each at the same distance to the pin as the BRP, will also be the same distance to the BRP, but that's unlikely. As long as one is closer to the BRP than the other, the closer one IS the only acceptable FRP. And rogolf beat me to the punch in saying that.

[ChipNRun]

Going back to early remarks on "elite events."

 

Our local Amateur Circuit serves as a training ground for USGA rules officials. On occasion, the Tournament Director will upgrade local rules of the course so they match standard USGA playing conditions.

 

An example: an opening Par 4 on one of the courses has a fence along the landing area. The course has red stakes marking the fence as a hazard - one stroke penalty and a drop. Four our tournament, we play the fence as an OB - old stroke-and-distance rule - because the ball would have traveled off the course.

[Sawgrass]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave

It seems like we all agree that the FRP will be on one edge of the fairway or the other, for the drawing under discussion now. It is possible that these two points, one on each edge of the fair way, and each at the same distance to the pin as the BRP, will also be the same distance to the BRP, but that's unlikely. As long as one is closer to the BRP than the other, the closer one IS the only acceptable FRP. And rogolf beat me to the punch in saying that.

imagine a straight fairway and a circular green directly centered at its end. A ball is lost or ob directly past the center of the green, and this centered point is established 20 yards from the hole. Rough surrounds the entire back and sides of the green. Ignoring the implication that we must use an edge for the moment, there is an entire arc 20 yards from the hole on the fairway side of it, and each point on that arc in the fairway is a potential FRP. Include the implication of having to use the edge of the fairway, and you’d always have two FRPs from which to choose.

[rogolf]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave

It seems like we all agree that the FRP will be on one edge of the fairway or the other, for the drawing under discussion now. It is possible that these two points, one on each edge of the fair way, and each at the same distance to the pin as the BRP, will also be the same distance to the BRP, but that's unlikely. As long as one is closer to the BRP than the other, the closer one IS the only acceptable FRP. And rogolf beat me to the punch in saying that.

imagine a straight fairway and a circular green directly centered at its end. A ball is lost or ob directly past the center of the green, and this centered point is established 20 yards from the hole. Rough surrounds the entire back and sides of the green. Ignoring the implication that we must use an edge for the moment, there is an entire arc 20 yards from the hole on the fairway side of it, and each point on that arc in the fairway is a potential FRP. Include the implication of having to use the edge of the fairway, and you’d always have two FRPs from which to choose.

Yes, imagine that! You forgot to imagine that the hole would need to be on the centreline of the green!

[Sawgrass]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave

It seems like we all agree that the FRP will be on one edge of the fairway or the other, for the drawing under discussion now. It is possible that these two points, one on each edge of the fair way, and each at the same distance to the pin as the BRP, will also be the same distance to the BRP, but that's unlikely. As long as one is closer to the BRP than the other, the closer one IS the only acceptable FRP. And rogolf beat me to the punch in saying that.

imagine a straight fairway and a circular green directly centered at its end. A ball is lost or ob directly past the center of the green, and this centered point is established 20 yards from the hole. Rough surrounds the entire back and sides of the green. Ignoring the implication that we must use an edge for the moment, there is an entire arc 20 yards from the hole on the fairway side of it, and each point on that arc in the fairway is a potential FRP. Include the implication of having to use the edge of the fairway, and you’d always have two FRPs from which to choose.

Yes, imagine that! You forgot to imagine that the hole would need to be on the centreline of the green!

The hole could be anywhere on the green, there would still be an equidistant arc, or two equidistant points based on it. The arc/points would simply change based on hole location.

 

Edit: forget this, nothing to see here folks, I was wrong, keep on moving.

[rogolf]

The hole could be anywhere on the green, there would still be an equidistant arc, or two equidistant points based on it. The arc/points would simply change based on hole location.

You'll have to draw it for me.

[davep043]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave

It seems like we all agree that the FRP will be on one edge of the fairway or the other, for the drawing under discussion now. It is possible that these two points, one on each edge of the fair way, and each at the same distance to the pin as the BRP, will also be the same distance to the BRP, but that's unlikely. As long as one is closer to the BRP than the other, the closer one IS the only acceptable FRP. And rogolf beat me to the punch in saying that.

imagine a straight fairway and a circular green directly centered at its end. A ball is lost or ob directly past the center of the green, and this centered point is established 20 yards from the hole. Rough surrounds the entire back and sides of the green. Ignoring the implication that we must use an edge for the moment, there is an entire arc 20 yards from the hole on the fairway side of it, and each point on that arc in the fairway is a potential FRP. Include the implication of having to use the edge of the fairway, and you’d always have two FRPs from which to choose.

So we have a circle with a radius of 20 yards, centered on the hole. Lets then move our center to the BRP, and make a BIG circle with a radius of 40 yards. THAT circle touches the first one at only one point, directly opposite from the BRP, with the hole in the center. Every other point on the first circle is less than 40 yards from the BRP. If everything is lined up perfectly, there are two potential FRPs, one on each side of the fairway, each closer to the BRP than any other point on that first circle that is in the fairway. That is what matters in determining the FRP, it has to be the closest to the BRP. The arc of the smaller circle that is in the fairway is all further from the BRP than the two points on the edge. I don't have the ability to draw it up right now, but I know that this is correct.

[rogolf]

The player better hope that the green is not 30 yards in diameter and the hole is 5 yards from the back of the green (25 from the front). Seems that may mean there is no fairway reference point? (since rough surrounds the entire back and sides of the green) But, maybe the player on this imaginary hole gets a break because there is a fringe surrounding the green that is cut to fairway height or less?

[Sawgrass]

The hole could be anywhere on the green, there would still be an equidistant arc, or two equidistant points based on it. The arc/points would simply change based on hole location.

You'll have to draw it for me.

 

I can’t draw this. Mostly because I was flat-out wrong, but there may be other reasons as well.

[rogolf]

The hole could be anywhere on the green, there would still be an equidistant arc, or two equidistant points based on it. The arc/points would simply change based on hole location.

You'll have to draw it for me.

 

I can’t draw this. Mostly because I was flat-out wrong, but there may be other reasons as well.

Ok, just imagine that you were wrong! :) It never really happened.

[nsxguy]

Here is an interesting Gedankenexperiment. Assume that your ball is lost in the fairway (plugged and you cannot find it). In this case I believe that your FRP and BRP are the same point.

 

Why ? :blink:

[DaveLeeNC]

Here is an interesting Gedankenexperiment. Assume that your ball is lost in the fairway (plugged and you cannot find it). In this case I believe that your FRP and BRP are the same point.

 

Why ? :blink:

 

In the true spirit of the Einstein/Bohr debates, you would be supplying a counter-example :-)

 

dave

[nsxguy]

Here is an interesting Gedankenexperiment. Assume that your ball is lost in the fairway (plugged and you cannot find it). In this case I believe that your FRP and BRP are the same point.

 

Why ? :blink:

 

In the true spirit of the Einstein/Bohr debates, you would be supplying a counter-example :-)

 

dave

 

I guess I don't see how the BRP and the FRP can be the same.

 

It's already been established(?) that the "fairway reference point" is the nearest point from the BRP at the EDGE of the fairway.

 

So if your ball is lost in the fairway, wouldn't you have to establish (roughly) where it was lost and then get the FRP,,,,,,, at the nearest edge of the fairway and then establish the relief area ??? :blink:

[Augster]

Here is an interesting Gedankenexperiment. Assume that your ball is lost in the fairway (plugged and you cannot find it). In this case I believe that your FRP and BRP are the same point.

 

Why ? :blink:

 

In the true spirit of the Einstein/Bohr debates, you would be supplying a counter-example :-)

 

dave

 

I guess I don't see how the BRP and the FRP can be the same.

 

It's already been established(?) that the "fairway reference point" is the nearest point from the BRP at the EDGE of the fairway.

 

So if your ball is lost in the fairway, wouldn't you have to establish (roughly) where it was lost and then get the FRP,,,,,,, at the nearest edge of the fairway and then establish the relief area ??? :blink:

 

The BRP and FRP are the same point if the ball is lost in the fairway. The definition:

 

Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

 

So the point in the fairway that is nearest the BRP IS the BRP as it’s already in the fairway. Drop within 2CL’s and play on.

 

It’s also likely why they got rid of the word “edge” in the LR.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

Here is an interesting Gedankenexperiment. Assume that your ball is lost in the fairway (plugged and you cannot find it). In this case I believe that your FRP and BRP are the same point.

 

Why ? :blink:

 

In the true spirit of the Einstein/Bohr debates, you would be supplying a counter-example :-)

 

dave

 

I guess I don't see how the BRP and the FRP can be the same.

 

It's already been established(?) that the "fairway reference point" is the nearest point from the BRP at the EDGE of the fairway.

 

So if your ball is lost in the fairway, wouldn't you have to establish (roughly) where it was lost and then get the FRP,,,,,,, at the nearest edge of the fairway and then establish the relief area ??? :blink:

 

The BRP and FRP are the same point if the ball is lost in the fairway. The definition:

 

Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

 

So the point in the fairway that is nearest the BRP IS the BRP as it's already in the fairway. Drop within 2CL's and play on.

 

It's also likely why they got rid of the word "edge" in the LR.

 

Exactly right. If you read the earlier statements carefully, there is the qualifier "not lost in the fairway". dave

[DaveLeeNC]

Exactly right. If you read the earlier statements carefully, there is the qualifier "not lost in the fairway". dave

 

FWIW, if you have a ball OB and the fairway extends to the OB stake lines, then the BRP and FRP would also be the same for this case. I don't recall having seen that before, but there are probably cases out there.

 

dave

[Sawgrass]

 

 

Exactly right. If you read the earlier statements carefully, there is the qualifier "not lost in the fairway". dave

 

Are you saying that the preamble to the LR, or the wording of the LR itself, says this?

[DaveLeeNC]

Exactly right. If you read the earlier statements carefully, there is the qualifier "not lost in the fairway". dave

 

Are you saying that the preamble to the LR, or the wording of the LR itself, says this?

 

Sorry - I was referring to the discussion in this thread. When all is said and done it was addressing DaveP's statement that I quoted in post # 361.

 

dave

[nsxguy]

 

I guess I don't see how the BRP and the FRP can be the same.

 

It's already been established(?) that the "fairway reference point" is the nearest point from the BRP at the EDGE of the fairway.

 

So if your ball is lost in the fairway, wouldn't you have to establish (roughly) where it was lost and then get the FRP,,,,,,, at the nearest edge of the fairway and then establish the relief area ??? :blink:

 

The BRP and FRP are the same point if the ball is lost in the fairway. The definition:

 

Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

 

So the point in the fairway that is nearest the BRP IS the BRP as it's already in the fairway. Drop within 2CL's and play on.

 

It's also likely why they got rid of the word "edge" in the LR.

 

Exactly right. If you read the earlier statements carefully, there is the qualifier "not lost in the fairway". dave

 

As Saw pointed out I don't see "not lost in the fairway" either.

 

As Augster pointed out, I do NOT see the word "edge" (of the fairway) in the MLR UNDER that diagrams which I guess IS the MLR but in the "preamble" that Saw mentioned it's still there - "This option allows the player to drop in a large area between the point where the ball is estimated to have come to rest or gone out of bounds and the edge of the fairway of the hole being played that is not nearer the hole"

 

So I guess it's my bad. :fie:

[Mikey5e]

I thought this tread was about the

2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule?

[DaveLeeNC]

I thought this tread was about the

2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule?

 

That is exactly what this is about - applying the model LR for OB and Lost Ball's. Why are you asking that question?

 

dave

[Mr. Bean]

I thought this tread was about the

2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule?

 

That is exactly what this is about - applying the model LR for OB and Lost Ball's. Why are you asking that question?

 

dave

 

I guess he made an eagle and wants to discuss that.

[antip]

The lost in fairway implications are really very interesting if E-5 is in place and I've enjoyed reading the discussion above, but here's a different observation:

 

I agree that BRP and FRP are identical. So we have a rectangular relief area that is defined as 2CL to the "outside" of the BRP line and 2CL to the "fairway" side of the FRP line. BUT we have no practical guidance on what that "outside" and "fairway" side means in this situation of ball lost in the fairway. So, IMO, we are in a "situation not covered by the rules". You might interpret "outside" of BRP line as towards the nearest fairway edge and "fairway" side of FRP line as towards the furthest fairway edge, but other interpretations could be possible depending on the conditions on the ground. If you have them going in opposite directions then the RA rectangle is 4CL wide.

 

So in this lost in fairway special case, it all seems to have collapsed into a specialised version of BOL relief.

[rogolf]

The lost in fairway implications are really very interesting if E-5 is in place and I've enjoyed reading the discussion above, but here's a different observation:

 

I agree that BRP and FRP are identical. So we have a rectangular relief area that is defined as 2CL to the "outside" of the BRP line and 2CL to the "fairway" side of the FRP line. BUT we have no practical guidance on what that "outside" and "fairway" side means in this situation of ball lost in the fairway. So, IMO, we are in a "situation not covered by the rules". You might interpret "outside" of BRP line as towards the nearest fairway edge and "fairway" side of FRP line as towards the furthest fairway edge, but other interpretations could be possible depending on the conditions on the ground. If you have them going in opposite directions then the RA rectangle is 4CL wide.

 

So in this lost in fairway special case, it all seems to have collapsed into a specialised version of BOL relief.

Sounds like an "equitable" and logical solution. :)

[antip]

The lost in fairway implications are really very interesting if E-5 is in place and I've enjoyed reading the discussion above, but here's a different observation:

 

I agree that BRP and FRP are identical. So we have a rectangular relief area that is defined as 2CL to the "outside" of the BRP line and 2CL to the "fairway" side of the FRP line. BUT we have no practical guidance on what that "outside" and "fairway" side means in this situation of ball lost in the fairway. So, IMO, we are in a "situation not covered by the rules". You might interpret "outside" of BRP line as towards the nearest fairway edge and "fairway" side of FRP line as towards the furthest fairway edge, but other interpretations could be possible depending on the conditions on the ground. If you have them going in opposite directions then the RA rectangle is 4CL wide.

 

So in this lost in fairway special case, it all seems to have collapsed into a specialised version of BOL relief.

Sounds like an "equitable" and logical solution. :)

Indeed it does. Just the pain of 2SP lingers.

[Sawgrass]

The lost in fairway implications are really very interesting if E-5 is in place and I've enjoyed reading the discussion above, but here's a different observation:

 

I agree that BRP and FRP are identical. So we have a rectangular relief area that is defined as 2CL to the "outside" of the BRP line and 2CL to the "fairway" side of the FRP line. BUT we have no practical guidance on what that "outside" and "fairway" side means in this situation of ball lost in the fairway. So, IMO, we are in a "situation not covered by the rules". You might interpret "outside" of BRP line as towards the nearest fairway edge and "fairway" side of FRP line as towards the furthest fairway edge, but other interpretations could be possible depending on the conditions on the ground. If you have them going in opposite directions then the RA rectangle is 4CL wide.

 

So in this lost in fairway special case, it all seems to have collapsed into a specialised version of BOL relief.

Sounds like an "equitable" and logical solution. :)

Indeed it does. Just the pain of 2SP lingers.

If I knew there was a soggy fairway in front of me, and I just saw my first drive disappear in it, no way I’d be hitting a provisional if E-5 was in play! A drop in the fairway with no loss of distance and no chance of another plugged ball . . . nice.

[Mr. Bean]

If I knew there was a soggy fairway in front of me, and I just saw my first drive disappear in it, no way I’d be hitting a provisional if E-5 was in play! A drop in the fairway with no loss of distance and no chance of another plugged ball . . . nice.

 

At this point we could shift the discussion towards the course conditions and whether a course is reasonably playable if you cannot find your ball in the fairway and it is not in a temporary water...

[Sawgrass]

If I knew there was a soggy fairway in front of me, and I just saw my first drive disappear in it, no way I’d be hitting a provisional if E-5 was in play! A drop in the fairway with no loss of distance and no chance of another plugged ball . . . nice.

 

At this point we could shift the discussion towards the course conditions and whether a course is reasonably playable if you cannot find your ball in the fairway and it is not in a temporary water...

I ref at an annual high-level event where on the first hole one hits a blind tee shot, pretty much off a cliff, and the edge of the cliff blocks your view of the fairway below. The fairway, with nearby pond, is notoriously wet. We have the starter radio to observers down below as to which side of the fairway a shot is heading for, in the hopes that the spotter will have a better chance of seeing where the ball will likely plug.

 

Certainly not an ideal situation, but one that does exist

[Mr. Bean]

If I knew there was a soggy fairway in front of me, and I just saw my first drive disappear in it, no way I’d be hitting a provisional if E-5 was in play! A drop in the fairway with no loss of distance and no chance of another plugged ball . . . nice.

 

At this point we could shift the discussion towards the course conditions and whether a course is reasonably playable if you cannot find your ball in the fairway and it is not in a temporary water...

I ref at an annual high-level event where on the first hole one hits a blind tee shot, pretty much off a cliff, and the edge of the cliff blocks your view of the fairway below. The fairway, with nearby pond, is notoriously wet. We have the starter radio to observers down below as to which side of the fairway a shot is heading for, in the hopes that the spotter will have a better chance of seeing where the ball will likely plug.

 

Certainly not an ideal situation, but one that does exist

 

I once refereed in an elite amateur / pro competition and was stuck as a forecaddie by the fairway of hole #18, a long par4 with landing area 6-7 meters lower than the teeing area. That area was so wet that without exception all the balls hitting fairway plugged in at least to some extent, many to the extent being no longer visible at all or only when viewed from directly above. I could not quite see the balls landing but I had to listen and with sheer luck no balls were lost.

 

That area was so wet without being a uniform area of temporary water that it was clearly not fairly playable. But as it was the last hole and last day we just pushed it through instead of stopping and cancelling the round. Without a forecaddie that would have been a mission impossible for the players.