2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule

[Mr. Bean]

I ref at an annual high-level event where on the first hole one hits a blind tee shot, pretty much off a cliff, and the edge of the cliff blocks your view of the fairway below. The fairway, with nearby pond, is notoriously wet. We have the starter radio to observers down below as to which side of the fairway a shot is heading for, in the hopes that the spotter will have a better chance of seeing where the ball will likely plug.

 

Certainly not an ideal situation, but one that does exist

 

Why don't you mark that area as ACC ? Apparently it lacks proper draining.

[Sawgrass]

I ref at an annual high-level event where on the first hole one hits a blind tee shot, pretty much off a cliff, and the edge of the cliff blocks your view of the fairway below. The fairway, with nearby pond, is notoriously wet. We have the starter radio to observers down below as to which side of the fairway a shot is heading for, in the hopes that the spotter will have a better chance of seeing where the ball will likely plug.

 

Certainly not an ideal situation, but one that does exist

 

Why don't you mark that area as ACC ? Apparently it lacks proper draining.

While I am not responsible for course marking, what you suggest is of course a possibility. But it really would be problematical for one to establish that a ball is lost within an ACC if no one could really see it after it took off from the tee. And calling an entire fairway an ACC requires a drop short of or otherwise off the fairway . . . rules can't totally make up for poor conditions. In any case, we work hard and generally find the balls in time. Though that was 5 minutes of time . . .

[DaveLeeNC]

If I knew there was a soggy fairway in front of me, and I just saw my first drive disappear in it, no way I’d be hitting a provisional if E-5 was in play! A drop in the fairway with no loss of distance and no chance of another plugged ball . . . nice.

 

At this point we could shift the discussion towards the course conditions and whether a course is reasonably playable if you cannot find your ball in the fairway and it is not in a temporary water...

 

It does not take high risk of plugging to make SG's point. Assume that the ball should be in the fairway (which is somewhat wet but that is all) and you cannot find it so plugged is the most likely reason. Further assume this was a really good drive. So you can go back and try to hit another great drive or get one granted to you by LR.

 

dave

[nsxguy]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

[Sawgrass]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

[Mr. Bean]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

 

My point was that sometimes the course is not playable (like when covered with snow...) and you just might need other types of measures than a LR for a lost ball. After all, it cannot be the idea of this game to drive well just to notice you are lying 3 on the spot where you though you'd be able to make a nice par by hitting the green and 2-putting.

[BIG STU]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

I have been tiptoeing around these threads a few weeks now on and off and have not commented. And you did ask a good legitimate question and IMHO there are several options and all can be different. Ok so I am going to stick my neck out now.

 

First off there needs to be some common sense used here by both the USGA and rules committees. Everyone on here knows my hatred for both the USGA and R&A but honestly as complex as golf is there is no one rule that can cover it all. That is where the common sense comes in. I am referring to the situation Mr Bean described

 

If it was a stipulated event like a Mid Am or Open qualifier if those conditions persisted I think the event would be postponed.

 

Now with what Mr Bean described someone did use common sense and invoked a LR to deal with it which was pretty good when they had him as a forecaddie

 

If it was in the course of daily play the course could have an employee doing what Mr Bean did I would say that would be a good step of customer service. Also if possible have a staff member on that tee and have the starter explain things to the customer.

 

Now not knowing the course it would be a great help to have a designated penalty free drop area within reasonable distance of the green.

 

IMHO the LR option gives the staff or committee latitude in implementing a LR to fit the situation for the day and course.

 

Most of all it is common sense in that case and on the player's part integrity--- This is my .02 FWIW

[antip]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

It's also worth noting that sometimes nature provides the solution to a lost ball without needing a local rule. If the course is covered with snow, no penalties are incurred for lost ball, it's all temporary water, an abnormal course condition. And wet areas balls are embedding in, if there is sufficient moisture there, ie it is surface visible or rises easily to the surface on walking there, it is also an abnormal course condition so free relief. You need to have knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball is lost in such an area, so this is not going to apply in all circumstances in your cases like blind tee shots over cliffs into areas prone to saturation (why would anyone build such a feature without preparing for the inevitable management challenges?) but may be relevant in different situations.

 

There is no simple fix for all problems though, case by case assessment is required, and there are times when we should not be on the golf course.

[Sawgrass]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

 

One more thought for this situation. The Committee could set up a temporary tee at the bottom of the cliff so shots could be more easily watched ( and in this case tee shots would be hit passed the soggy zone).

[sui generis]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

 

One more thought for this situation. The Committee could set up a temporary tee at the bottom of the cliff so shots could be more easily watched ( and in this case tee shots would be hit passed the soggy zone).

 

My caddie walked the course this morning and noted that area below the cliff was soggy and we might lose a ball there. He suggested a 1 iron to the top of the hill.

 

I said. "Pshaw, real men blast it with the big stick. If the Committee can't figure this out, then I'm cancelling my USGA membership. They can sue me to get their bag tag, cap, and Rule book back." :)

[rogolf]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

 

One more thought for this situation. The Committee could set up a temporary tee at the bottom of the cliff so shots could be more easily watched ( and in this case tee shots would be hit passed the soggy zone).

Player's responsibility - play the course as you find it.

[Sawgrass]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

 

One more thought for this situation. The Committee could set up a temporary tee at the bottom of the cliff so shots could be more easily watched ( and in this case tee shots would be hit passed the soggy zone).

 

My caddie walked the course this morning and noted that area below the cliff was soggy and we might lose a ball there. He suggested a 1 iron to the top of the hill.

 

I said. "Pshaw, real men blast it with the big stick. If the Committee can't figure this out, then I'm cancelling my USGA membership. They can sue me to get their bag tag, cap, and Rule book back." :)

Don’t do it man. It’s a really sturdy bag tag!

[sui generis]

No offense but youse guys are tiptoeing around the most obvious question a non-rulie like myself would ask.

 

So I'll ask it.

 

Is there any sort of local rule that would allow a free drop in the 2 radical cases you are discussing ?

 

After all the cases you guys are talking about, especially if they are common at those courses makes it virtually certain damn near everybody that hits a decent drive will "lose" lose a ball on those fairways.

 

How on earth is one supposed to play those holes without forecaddies ?

Bean's suggestion to declare the entire area an abnormal course condition (sort of ) works. Beyond that, I think we're stuck. But as noted, there are some problems caused by mother nature that no rules solution can fix. An entire course covered in snow makes a fine example.

 

One more thought for this situation. The Committee could set up a temporary tee at the bottom of the cliff so shots could be more easily watched ( and in this case tee shots would be hit passed the soggy zone).

 

My caddie walked the course this morning and noted that area below the cliff was soggy and we might lose a ball there. He suggested a 1 iron to the top of the hill.

 

I said. "Pshaw, real men blast it with the big stick. If the Committee can't figure this out, then I'm cancelling my USGA membership. They can sue me to get their bag tag, cap, and Rule book back." :)

Don’t do it man. It’s a really sturdy bag tag!

 

Pshaw, I have at least thirty of them. ;)

[jerebear21]

quick question

 

my playing partner sliced a ball to the right side of the first green at grand cypress north last week; that right side are range balls dump yard

 

we looked over 5 minutes and there were people on the tee box. he said he should be allowed free relief because if we were in a tournament there wouldn't be so many range balls.

 

i said we should drop and he'll be on 4; this goes back and forth and he said i'll drop and be on 3. afterwards he went off on me for the next hole; told him to take me to car cause i can't play golf like this;

 

was i in the wrong to ask him to drop and be on 4 since we couldn't find his ball and made great effort to look for it; was he right that he shouldn't be penalized since the right side is the dump zone for the driving range?

 

i'm not annoyed now but felt like at the time he was blaming me for something I personally would penalize myself on.

[Augster]

quick question

 

my playing partner sliced a ball to the right side of the first green at grand cypress north last week; that right side are range balls dump yard

 

we looked over 5 minutes and there were people on the tee box. he said he should be allowed free relief because if we were in a tournament there wouldn't be so many range balls.

 

i said we should drop and he'll be on 4; this goes back and forth and he said i'll drop and be on 3. afterwards he went off on me for the next hole; told him to take me to car cause i can't play golf like this;

 

was i in the wrong to ask him to drop and be on 4 since we couldn't find his ball and made great effort to look for it; was he right that he shouldn't be penalized since the right side is the dump zone for the driving range?

 

i'm not annoyed now but felt like at the time he was blaming me for something I personally would penalize myself on.

 

Once you got past 3 minutes, his ball was lost.

 

Take the local rule hitting 4 or go back to the tee and hit 3.

[Mr. Bean]

was i in the wrong to ask him to drop and be on 4 since we couldn't find his ball and made great effort to look for it; was he right that he shouldn't be penalized since the right side is the dump zone for the driving range?

 

 

My home course has one of the fairways adjacent to the driving range. Thus the left side rough of that hole is filled with range balls and it is indeed hard to find your ball should you hit it there.

 

So, tell your friend to hit his ball on the green instead of the rough or to use a ball of different color than those range balls.

[DaveLeeNC]

quick question

 

my playing partner sliced a ball to the right side of the first green at grand cypress north last week; that right side are range balls dump yard

 

we looked over 5 minutes and there were people on the tee box. he said he should be allowed free relief because if we were in a tournament there wouldn't be so many range balls.

 

i said we should drop and he'll be on 4; this goes back and forth and he said i'll drop and be on 3. afterwards he went off on me for the next hole; told him to take me to car cause i can't play golf like this;

 

was i in the wrong to ask him to drop and be on 4 since we couldn't find his ball and made great effort to look for it; was he right that he shouldn't be penalized since the right side is the dump zone for the driving range?

 

i'm not annoyed now but felt like at the time he was blaming me for something I personally would penalize myself on.

 

IMHO, the most likely 'ruling' (by a qualified committee) for an area that is the driving range for the course being played is that the range would be marked OB. But not long ago Jordan Speith certainly found this not to be the case at Royal Birkdale. Most of what I have read indicates that no one anticipated a drive being hit in that area.

 

dave

[jerebear21]

that's what I thought;

 

also he didn't hit in into the driving range; it was the right bunker area of the 1st fairway; the driving range dump was to the right of it; there weren't a lot of balls; maybe about 5-10 balls.

 

he was visibly upset about this and lay 3 as opposed to the 4 that i suggested; i let it be but he kept going on and on about it as if i was cheating which is what threw me off.

 

thanks for the clarification.

[Halebopp]

that's what I thought;

 

also he didn't hit in into the driving range; it was the right bunker area of the 1st fairway; the driving range dump was to the right of it; there weren't a lot of balls; maybe about 5-10 balls.

 

he was visibly upset about this and lay 3 as opposed to the 4 that i suggested; i let it be but he kept going on and on about it as if i was cheating which is what threw me off.

 

thanks for the clarification.

 

Doesn't sound like much of a friend but you know the specifics better. :)

[jerebear21]

Yeah he has a temper problem. But that’s the entire situation. I don’t think I left anything out.

[Halebopp]

Yeah he has a temper problem. But that's the entire situation. I don't think I left anything out.

 

I meant about the whole friendship in general. :)

[jerebear21]

Haha. He’s a good person. Just hates losing. I’m used to it so it never bothers me. Losing. That is.

[Sawgrass]

Not specifically related to the OP, but this thread got me thinking. Imagine a big pile of range balls, and your ball is known to have embedded in the middle of them, but you can’t find it. Does that qualify as a ball “lost in or on a movable obstruction?” If so, how close together do the range balls actually have to be in order to qualify as a MO (as opposed to each ball being an individual MO, presumably voiding the possibility of another ball being “lost” in or on it)?

[antip]

Not specifically related to the OP, but this thread got me thinking. Imagine a big pile of range balls, and your ball is known to have embedded in the middle of them, but you can’t find it. Does that qualify as a ball “lost in or on a movable obstruction?” If so, how close together do the range balls actually have to be in order to qualify as a MO (as opposed to each ball being an individual MO, presumably voiding the possibility of another ball being “lost” in or on it)?

My reaction is it is not possible to be "in" an MO that is a golf ball. You could be "on" a group of balls tightly packed, but that would be highly visible, so not a difficult challenge to meet the standard in the rule - KVC - a 95 per cent probability test. If there is no ball piggy-backing on other balls, you are not lost on a MO.

 

Problems such as this are generally down to poor course set up. Of course, clubs need to manage their assets as they see fit, and if the driving range is critical and needs to use ground otherwise available for the course then it should be appropriately marked (and screened if feasible). As noted above, appropriate marking of the OOB line can go a long way to limiting/sidelining the problem of ball identification.

[rogolf]

Not specifically related to the OP, but this thread got me thinking. Imagine a big pile of range balls, and your ball is known to have embedded in the middle of them, but you can’t find it. Does that qualify as a ball “lost in or on a movable obstruction?” If so, how close together do the range balls actually have to be in order to qualify as a MO (as opposed to each ball being an individual MO, presumably voiding the possibility of another ball being “lost” in or on it)?

My reaction is it is not possible to be "in" an MO that is a golf ball. You could be "on" a group of balls tightly packed, but that would be highly visible, so not a difficult challenge to meet the standard in the rule - KVC - a 95 per cent probability test. If there is no ball piggy-backing on other balls, you are not lost on a MO.

 

Problems such as this are generally down to poor course set up. Of course, clubs need to manage their assets as they see fit, and if the driving range is critical and needs to use ground otherwise available for the course then it should be appropriately marked (and screened if feasible). As noted above, appropriate marking of the OOB line can go a long way to limiting/sidelining the problem of ball identification.

 

Agree that the balls are all individual movable obstructions and there isn't a way to deem them to anything else (other than integral).

Our course has that issue - the driving range is to the right of the first fairway, beyond the entrance road (which marks the OOB for the course). Because we play early, there are always 10-25 range balls in the trees/rough (2 inch) on the left of the first fairway. Makes finding a ball a little more difficult, but with four of us looking it's not a problem (we don't subscribe to the practice of hitting our own ball before looking for a fellow golfer's ball - the more eyes in the search, the better, and I don't think that practice saves any time.)

[Mr. Bean]

Makes finding a ball a little more difficult, but with four of us looking it's not a problem (we don't subscribe to the practice of hitting our own ball before looking for a fellow golfer's ball - the more eyes in the search, the better, and I don't think that practice saves any time.)

 

I believe it does not save time all the time but it does in those cases where different balls are about the same distance from the hole. After all, other players are playing their balls during the search time so it is bound to save time.

[rogolf]

Makes finding a ball a little more difficult, but with four of us looking it's not a problem (we don't subscribe to the practice of hitting our own ball before looking for a fellow golfer's ball - the more eyes in the search, the better, and I don't think that practice saves any time.)

 

I believe it does not save time all the time but it does in those cases where different balls are about the same distance from the hole. After all, other players are playing their balls during the search time so it is bound to save time.

I'm still of the mind that I owe it to others to search for their ball before playing mine, particularly with the change to three minutes. Courtesy is more important than a few seconds saved (especially if we're waiting on the group in front). Time doesn't trump everything!

[Mr. Bean]

Makes finding a ball a little more difficult, but with four of us looking it's not a problem (we don't subscribe to the practice of hitting our own ball before looking for a fellow golfer's ball - the more eyes in the search, the better, and I don't think that practice saves any time.)

 

I believe it does not save time all the time but it does in those cases where different balls are about the same distance from the hole. After all, other players are playing their balls during the search time so it is bound to save time.

I'm still of the mind that I owe it to others to search for their ball before playing mine, particularly with the change to three minutes. Courtesy is more important than a few seconds saved (especially if we're waiting on the group in front). Time doesn't trump everything!

 

There I agree with you completely.

[Roadking2003]

Makes finding a ball a little more difficult, but with four of us looking it's not a problem (we don't subscribe to the practice of hitting our own ball before looking for a fellow golfer's ball - the more eyes in the search, the better, and I don't think that practice saves any time.)

 

I believe it does not save time all the time but it does in those cases where different balls are about the same distance from the hole. After all, other players are playing their balls during the search time so it is bound to save time.

I'm still of the mind that I owe it to others to search for their ball before playing mine, particularly with the change to three minutes. Courtesy is more important than a few seconds saved (especially if we're waiting on the group in front). Time doesn't trump everything!

 

I have mixed feelings about this. Depending on the situation, it might make sense for me to take 20 -30 seconds to hit my ball then walk over and help my playing partner find his ball. If he is in very deep rough, then probably not because his ball will be hard to find and he needs all the help he can get. But if he is in light rough and very likely to find the ball, it might be better for me to hit first.

[Newby]

I agree with that philosophy