2019 OB & Lost Ball Rule

[antip]

I personally do not believe theres enough time in the day to be an elite player AND a rules expert...

There is a mechanism that enables this, it is called retirement. I both play and officiate at elite senior events (not at the same time of course), and officiate at pro tournaments. These are two different and IMO complementary expressions of my love of the game.

[antip]

ps. I did once see a guy (in the time of small driver clubheads) sky a ball such that it ended up about 10 yards behind him. FWIW, I don't believe that this guy had a FRP on that shot (there is always that one case ...)

This reminds me of two memorable but bizarre golf course experiences.

First is social play with some drinking buddies, teeing off on an extremely elevated tee to a par 5 fairway that drops downwards precipitously, hitting into a 45-50mph wind. One guy, a strong hitter, skies it, right off the top of the driver and the ball goes up, up and up..... then all of us about the same time react and go...s@#$ get off the tee! It landed a yard in front of us.

Second is the only time I can ever remember falling on the ground laughing at an opponent's shot in match play. The guy's club head makes the finest possible contact high on the side of the ball furthest away from him and the ball pops softly sideways between his legs and hits the ground a yard behind his butt with massive side spin and bounces back at 90 degrees and into the creek directly behind the tee.

[bladehunter]

[

 

davep043's illustration on the previous page nicely shows that the actual relief area is (potentially) much closer to the hole in this situation. Except for those guys you referred to.

 

I assume what you are saying is the the relief area might have legal drops that are closer to the hole than is the FRP. Is that what you are saying (which I agree with)?

 

dave

 

ps. I did once see a guy (in the time of small driver clubheads) sky a ball such that it ended up about 10 yards behind him. FWIW, I don't believe that this guy had a FRP on that shot (there is always that one case ...)

 

2 years ago saw a guy tee off and hit a concrete tee marker on the tees up front and then ball cane back by his head through a cart and onto the tennis courts. Funniest thing ever. But OB 30 yards behind him.

[bladehunter]

I personally do not believe theres enough time in the day to be an elite player AND a rules expert...

There is a mechanism that enables this, it is called retirement. I both play and officiate at elite senior events (not at the same time of course), and officiate at pro tournaments. These are two different and IMO complementary expressions of my love of the game.

 

That makes some sense. No work would surely help.

[nsxguy]

Based on this, it seems to me that the relief area can extend closer to the hole than the Fairway Reference Point, but it can't be any closer than the Ball Reference Point.

 

Dave, I wish I could see in my mind what you're talking about, I don't think it's likely to be true. The FRP is equidistant to the hole as the BRP, or possibly further away than the BRP. While the limits on the relief area say "must not be nearer the hole than the BRP" (supporting your suggestion) the problem with that is that the two club-lengths are required to be "outside" or "to the fairway side" of the reference lines. That "outside" seems to suggest a 90* angle away from the FRP, which in my mind can not be closer to the hole than the BRP -- but please tell me if you disagree about that. If we're in agremeent about that, the only loop hole is whether you need 90* to be "to the fairway side" of the reference line. All the illustrations in E-5 show a 90*, though I acknowledge that that may not in itself be definitive. (In Diagram 1, the two club lengths off both lines "curve" to stay equidistant from the hole. In Diagram 3, the club lengths off the FRP stay at 90* off the line too, when they clearly could have slid forward toward the hole if that was the intention)

I hope the following sketch is clear:

 

 

 

This is a par 3, with no fairway. I've shown a FRP at the nearest teeing ground, which is much further from the hole than the BRP. I drew a reference line from the hole through the FRP, and then a proposed relief area that is between the two reference lines and no closer than the BRP. I believe this follows each of the requirements.

 

Perhaps I didn't look at this carefully enough.

 

You have an arrow pointed to the lightly shaded green area that says "Relief Area". Is that intended to be the entire light green shaded area ?

 

Also, you have a red arc drawn from the BRP through roughly the front of the green up to the line from the pin through the FRP (the forward tee). What does that arc represent ?

[HitEmTrue]

 

Perhaps I didn't look at this carefully enough.

 

You have an arrow pointed to the lightly shaded green area that says "Relief Area". Is that intended to be the entire light green shaded area ?

 

Also, you have a red arc drawn from the BRP through roughly the front of the green up to the line from the pin through the FRP (the forward tee). What does that arc represent ?

 

Yes, the entire light green area is the relief area.

 

The BRP defines the distance from the relief area to the hole. Thus, the arc. In many (most?) cases, the point where that arc intersects the fairway defines the fairway reference point.

 

( edit ) using the phone to delete large amounts of text is a pain!

[nsxguy]

Perhaps I didn't look at this carefully enough.

 

You have an arrow pointed to the lightly shaded green area that says "Relief Area". Is that intended to be the entire light green shaded area ?

 

Also, you have a red arc drawn from the BRP through roughly the front of the green up to the line from the pin through the FRP (the forward tee). What does that arc represent ?

 

Yes, the entire light green area is the relief area.

 

The BRP defines the distance from the relief area to the hole. Thus, the arc. In many (most?) cases, the point where that arc intersects the fairway defines the fairway reference point.

 

( edit ) using the phone to delete large amounts of text is a pain!

 

I guess I'm confused,,,,,,, again,,,,,,,, and I thought I HAD this one (LR) down,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

In every illustration in the Model Local Rule, Reference Point "A", or Ball Reference Point, is where the ball either went OB or is presumed lost.

 

It appears as though "they" forgot to consider this "no fairway on par 3" situation and thus left out a pictorial for same. Dave kindly gave us one. Dave (or was it someone else ?) pointed out that in lieu of a "real" fairway, an area cut to fairway length suffices. In Dave's illustration there is no fairway and thus, the tee box is designated the FRP.

 

In every illustration in the MLR, RP "B" is the "Fairway Reference Point".

 

The arc in the existing illustrations are always from RP"A" to RP"B". That puts RPB/FRP, back at that forward tee (in the drawing). That being the case the entire light green area LEFT of that straight line (in this case) from where the ball went OB back to the FRP would NOT be part of the Relief Area.

 

The arc drawn from BRP/RPA towards and around the apron of the green would appear to me to be irrelevant.

 

Or am I mistaken (as usual) ?

[Augster]

Perhaps I didn't look at this carefully enough.

 

You have an arrow pointed to the lightly shaded green area that says "Relief Area". Is that intended to be the entire light green shaded area ?

 

Also, you have a red arc drawn from the BRP through roughly the front of the green up to the line from the pin through the FRP (the forward tee). What does that arc represent ?

 

Yes, the entire light green area is the relief area.

 

The BRP defines the distance from the relief area to the hole. Thus, the arc. In many (most?) cases, the point where that arc intersects the fairway defines the fairway reference point.

 

( edit ) using the phone to delete large amounts of text is a pain!

 

I guess I'm confused,,,,,,, again,,,,,,,, and I thought I HAD this one (LR) down,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

In every illustration in the Model Local Rule, Reference Point "A", or Ball Reference Point, is where the ball either went OB or is presumed lost.

 

It appears as though "they" forgot to consider this "no fairway on par 3" situation and thus left out a pictorial for same. Dave kindly gave us one. Dave (or was it someone else ?) pointed out that in lieu of a "real" fairway, an area cut to fairway length suffices. In Dave's illustration there is no fairway and thus, the tee box is designated the FRP.

 

In every illustration in the MLR, RP "B" is the "Fairway Reference Point".

 

The arc in the existing illustrations are always from RP"A" to RP"B". That puts RPB/FRP, back at that forward tee (in the drawing). That being the case the entire light green area LEFT of that straight line (in this case) from where the ball went OB back to the FRP would NOT be part of the Relief Area.

 

The arc drawn from BRP/RPA towards and around the apron of the green would appear to me to be irrelevant.

 

Or am I mistaken (as usual) ?

 

You don’t NEED to connect the BRP with the FRP via an arc. In most cases you will. Picture a straight hole that you push one OB and want to drop in the fairway as far up as the rules will let you.

 

But in Dave’s great illustration, he had it exactly correct. If I were dropping, I’d likely drop in the “left upper corner” of the relief area in the rough.

 

Here is the wording of the local rule....

 

Two Estimated Reference Points:

 

a. Ball Reference Point: The point where the original ball is estimated to have:

 

Come to rest on the course, or

 

Last crossed the edge of the course boundary to go out of bounds.

 

b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

For purposes of this Local Rule, “fairway” means any area of grass in the general area that is cut to fairway height or less.

 

If a ball is estimated to be lost on the course or last crossed the edge of the course boundary short of the fairway, the fairway reference point may be a grass path or a teeing ground for the hole being played cut to fairway height or less.

 

Size of Relief Area Based on Reference Points: Anywhere between:

 

A line from the hole through the ball reference point (and within two club-lengths to the outside of that line), and

 

A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line).

 

 

So, in practice on a hole like this, you’ll just walk up to about the distance it went OB, look back at the edge of the forward tee where the FRP would be, draw the line in your head from the pin to that and then drop within 2CLs of that line at about equal to where the ball went OB.

 

I will absolutely agree with you the ruling bodies haven’t provided enough guidance on this issue. There are tons of par 3’s I’ve played where this will come into play and most guys will drop incorrectly.

 

Though, I’d guess, most will drop within 2CLs of the BRP, no closer to the hole, and likely be within the rules by accident. Which is nice.

[Halebopp]

That is also assuming the teeing grounds are cut to fairway lengths. Like Bean pointed out earlier, that might not always be the case.

 

Then it's a question of whether or not the BRP line and the two club lengths to its side form an RA.

[bladehunter]

?‍♀️?

[QEight]

That is also assuming the teeing grounds are cut to fairway lengths. Like Bean pointed out earlier, that might not always be the case.

 

Then it's a question of whether or not the BRP line and the two club lengths to its side form an RA.

 

I hope the courses have mowing heights listed on web pages and bulletin boards...

[davep043]

HitmTrue and Augster have interpreted my drawing the way I intend it. The Fairway Reference Point defines the left-side limit of the Relief Area, but that is its only function, as I read the rule. The FRP can be no closer to the hole than the BRP, but there's nothing that says it cannot be further. In this case, with no fairway, and no fairway-length path, the only place is on the teeing ground of the hole being played, which is what I've shown. The Relief Area is between the two lines (ball-side and fairway-side, plus two clublengths "outside" each one), and no closer to the hole than the BRP (the arc through the BRP shows this). As I said, to me this area fulfills each requirement in the rule. And I can't speak for all courses, but most courses I've played have the teeing grounds cut to fairway height, or even lower in some cases.

[nsxguy]

Thank you for the explanations gentlemen.

 

I can see now by reading the text very carefully that what you guys say is true. I fear however, that most people that even bother to read the local rule (since pictures are much easier to "process") will mostly follow the illustrations rather than get quite so specific about the text and botch (the explanation for) this situation badly,,,,,,,,,,,,,, as I have. :D

 

It is difficult to believe that the ruling bodies didn't anticipate questions about this very situation and present an illustration of it as dave has so kindly done for us. I think I shall present this to the USGA just to see what they say.

 

I believe that when this occurs on the golf course, even amongst most people that have familiarized themselves (i.e. not a "rulie" or one of us here) with the local rule,,,,,,,,,,,,, that

 

a) not having a fairway to reference and an illustration of this particular situation they won't remember anything about this situation and

 

b) they will drop where they're supposed to,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, by accident. :lol:

 

Thanks again, even though I'm now going to have an even bigger argument with the guy in the other group at my course. I know what I'll do. I'll ask him what he'd do on a par 3 with no fairway. :cheesy:

 

I'd bet my house he will not have thought of this situation and if he gets the drop correct it'll be, as I said above,,,,,,, by accident. :D

 

Man, I LOVE this place !!! :man_in_love:

[DaveLeeNC]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

[rogolf]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

As I understand it, the fairway reference point is always on the edge of the fairway. How do you get four of them?

[DaveLeeNC]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

As I understand it, the fairway reference point is always on the edge of the fairway. How do you get four of them?

 

Per the Model LR

 

The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

Nothing about edges. It is the point 'in the fairway' (not nearer the hole and closest to the BRP). It will be an edge in the typical case, but not this one (unless, yet again, I am wrong).

 

dave

 

ps. I defined 'four of them' to define the places in the fairway that are not nearer the hole. One of the complexities is to figure out where it is closest to the BRP. Should have said that initially.

[davep043]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

The way I've been looking at this, I think your BRP and FRP are correct. That would indicate a Relief Area in two segments: One essentially between the BRP and the water (towards the next tee), and one between the FRP and the water, kind of where the little peninsula is. Having been through the exercise, it doesn't seem too complicated, but I can see this one causing some confusion. From what I read of bladehunter, they're confused by the simpler situations as well as this kind of thing.

 

After reading rogolf's question and dave's response, I'm wondering if the FRP with the black line through it is at the edge of the fairway or not. If you were to select a point at the edge nearest the water, still at the same distance from the flag as the BRP, that might be the correct FRP. Of course, that would decrease the Relief Area in that vicinity significantly.

[DaveLeeNC]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

The way I've been looking at this, I think your BRP and FRP are correct. That would indicate a Relief Area in two segments: One essentially between the BRP and the water (towards the next tee), and one between the FRP and the water, kind of where the little peninsula is. Having been through the exercise, it doesn't seem too complicated, but I can see this one causing some confusion. From what I read of bladehunter, they're confused by the simpler situations as well as this kind of thing.

 

After reading rogolf's question and dave's response, I'm wondering if the FRP with the black line through it is at the edge of the fairway or not. If you were to select a point at the edge nearest the water, still at the same distance from the flag as the BRP, that might be the correct FRP. Of course, that would decrease the Relief Area in that vicinity significantly.

 

As I understand things, there is no 'selecting of a point'. You just have to find the point in the fairway not nearer the pin and closest to the BRP which in every case that I have thought of is a single point. Just gotta find it :-) . But that is probably what you meant by select.

 

And yes everything to the right of the blue line (including the blue line extended behind the BRP (but not drawn) is the relief area if not closer to the hole and not inside the hazard boundaries. So it is two separate places quite a good distance apart. IF I got it right.

 

dave

[davep043]

And yes everything to the right of the blue line (including the blue line extended behind the BRP (but not drawn) is the relief area if not closer to the hole and not inside the hazard boundaries. So it is two separate places quite a good distance apart. IF I got it right.

 

dave

Here's the way I'd look at it. I'm assuming the FRP is at the edge of the fairway, the's the nearest point in the fairway no closer to the hole than the BRP.

 

[Sawgrass]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

The way I've been looking at this, I think your BRP and FRP are correct. That would indicate a Relief Area in two segments: One essentially between the BRP and the water (towards the next tee), and one between the FRP and the water, kind of where the little peninsula is. Having been through the exercise, it doesn't seem too complicated, but I can see this one causing some confusion. From what I read of bladehunter, they're confused by the simpler situations as well as this kind of thing.

 

After reading rogolf's question and dave's response, I'm wondering if the FRP with the black line through it is at the edge of the fairway or not. If you were to select a point at the edge nearest the water, still at the same distance from the flag as the BRP, that might be the correct FRP. Of course, that would decrease the Relief Area in that vicinity significantly.

 

As I understand things, there is no 'selecting of a point'. You just have to find the point in the fairway not nearer the pin and closest to the BRP which in every case that I have thought of is a single point. Just gotta find it :-) . But that is probably what you meant by select.

 

And yes everything to the right of the blue line (including the blue line extended behind the BRP (but not drawn) is the relief area if not closer to the hole and not inside the hazard boundaries. So it is two separate places quite a good distance apart. IF I got it right.

 

dave

IMO you make an excellent point, they should have said, "The point AT THE EDGE OF THE fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

There still could be two, but if they're equidistant from the hole you should be able to take your pick, just as you can for two identically-distanced nearest points of relief.

[nsxguy]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

I had this post sitting and waiting and got distracted. LOL

 

I agree with davep043.

 

Early in the text for MLR E-5 it says " This option allows the player to drop in a large area between the point where the ball is estimated to have come to rest or gone out of bounds and the edge of the fairway of the hole being played that is not nearer the hole."

 

The 3rd illustration shows something akin to this possibility but NOT quite as you show it. The illustration clearly has the FRP closer to the BRP in the direction of THEIR arc. In the other direction around the green the fairway would be further away from the BRP.

 

Given the TEXT says "b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

I would think the CLOSEST FRP you've designated, which appears to be the one nearest the penalty area, would be "the one" regardless of the fact that most of your "relief area" would be in the penalty area (or behind it if in bounds). The DROP from that FRP WILL be in the general area so all details of the MLR would be complied with (I think LOL)

 

i.e. dave's RA encompassing the water (it appears assuming the one near the water IS the closer of the 2 edges) is correct

[davep043]

 

i.e. dave's RA encompassing the water (it appears assuming the one near the water IS the closer of the 2 edges) is correct

This whole process is reasonably easy if you have decent CADD tools like I do. Its not going to be quite so simple in real life. I think, though, that with a laser to get the distance to the hole correct, its not too terribly difficult.

[Sawgrass]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

I had this post sitting and waiting and got distracted. LOL

 

I agree with davep043.

 

Early in the text for MLR E-5 it says " This option allows the player to drop in a large area between the point where the ball is estimated to have come to rest or gone out of bounds and the edge of the fairway of the hole being played that is not nearer the hole."

 

The 3rd illustration shows something akin to this possibility but NOT quite as you show it. The illustration clearly has the FRP closer to the BRP in the direction of THEIR arc. In the other direction around the green the fairway would be further away from the BRP.

 

Given the TEXT says "b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

I would think the CLOSEST FRP you've designated, which appears to be the one nearest the penalty area, would be "the one" regardless of the fact that most of your "relief area" would be in the penalty area (or behind it if in bounds). The DROP from that FRP WILL be in the general area so all details of the MLR would be complied with (I think LOL)

 

i.e. dave's RA encompassing the water (it appears assuming the one near the water IS the closer of the 2 edges) is correct

You are so right, NSX. The preamble to the LR says "edge" but they "dropped the ball" in leaving that out of the LR wording itself.

 

I'd also like to point out that in Dave's drawing, had the fairway run deeper on the right side of the hole (top of the picture) there would be two fairway edges equidistant to the BRP.

[nsxguy]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

I had this post sitting and waiting and got distracted. LOL

 

I agree with davep043.

 

Early in the text for MLR E-5 it says " This option allows the player to drop in a large area between the point where the ball is estimated to have come to rest or gone out of bounds and the edge of the fairway of the hole being played that is not nearer the hole."

 

The 3rd illustration shows something akin to this possibility but NOT quite as you show it. The illustration clearly has the FRP closer to the BRP in the direction of THEIR arc. In the other direction around the green the fairway would be further away from the BRP.

 

Given the TEXT says "b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

I would think the CLOSEST FRP you've designated, which appears to be the one nearest the penalty area, would be "the one" regardless of the fact that most of your "relief area" would be in the penalty area (or behind it if in bounds). The DROP from that FRP WILL be in the general area so all details of the MLR would be complied with (I think LOL)

 

i.e. dave's RA encompassing the water (it appears assuming the one near the water IS the closer of the 2 edges) is correct

You are so right, NSX. The preamble to the LR says "edge" but they "dropped the ball" in leaving that out of the LR wording itself.

 

I'd also like to point out that in Dave's drawing, had the fairway run deeper on the right side of the hole (top of the picture) there would be two fairway edges equidistant to the BRP.

 

Noted.

 

So let me ask you then. You are a referee, yes ?

 

In this kind of situation would you go so far as to "laser" the 2 FRPs to determine which is closer or would you just "eyeball" it and tell the player "This one is closer" or would you just let the player decide which is closer and play on without checking it out (unless asked) ?

[Sawgrass]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

I had this post sitting and waiting and got distracted. LOL

 

I agree with davep043.

 

Early in the text for MLR E-5 it says " This option allows the player to drop in a large area between the point where the ball is estimated to have come to rest or gone out of bounds and the edge of the fairway of the hole being played that is not nearer the hole."

 

The 3rd illustration shows something akin to this possibility but NOT quite as you show it. The illustration clearly has the FRP closer to the BRP in the direction of THEIR arc. In the other direction around the green the fairway would be further away from the BRP.

 

Given the TEXT says "b. Fairway Reference Point: The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

I would think the CLOSEST FRP you've designated, which appears to be the one nearest the penalty area, would be "the one" regardless of the fact that most of your "relief area" would be in the penalty area (or behind it if in bounds). The DROP from that FRP WILL be in the general area so all details of the MLR would be complied with (I think LOL)

 

i.e. dave's RA encompassing the water (it appears assuming the one near the water IS the closer of the 2 edges) is correct

You are so right, NSX. The preamble to the LR says "edge" but they "dropped the ball" in leaving that out of the LR wording itself.

 

I'd also like to point out that in Dave's drawing, had the fairway run deeper on the right side of the hole (top of the picture) there would be two fairway edges equidistant to the BRP.

 

Noted.

 

So let me ask you then. You are a referee, yes ?

 

In this kind of situation would you go so far as to "laser" the 2 FRPs to determine which is closer or would you just "eyeball" it and tell the player "This one is closer" or would you just let the player decide which is closer and play on without checking it out (unless asked) ?

In stroke play I laser things when useful, in match play I let the players work things out and don't interfere unless I'm assigned to the match and see that something is going wrong. In all cases, if asked I'll provide direction.

[davep043]

 

You are so right, NSX. The preamble to the LR says "edge" but they "dropped the ball" in leaving that out of the LR wording itself.

 

In regards to the wording, I agree that specifically indicating the "edge" of the fairway would have been clearest. But the nearest point in the fairway to any spot that is off the fairway will always be on the edge of the fairway.

[rogolf]

This is just idle curiosity. If the Model LR was in place and I 'flew the green' (per attached image), ball was lost (see BRP), and I decided to utilize this LR, obviously I have to pick a FRP. I have shown a series possible FRP's (all equi-distance from pin vs. the BRP). So "THE" FRP is the FRP that is closest to the BRP, which is not obvious.

 

And actually it matters and could be important. In this case the 'relief area' defined by the areas behind the BRP-FRP line (not closer to the hole) and bounded by the pin-BRP and pin-FRP line, so it is either left or right of the blue line (not nearer the hole). A golfer worried about skulling a pitch shot will want to go to the left side of the fairway. A golfer with directional issues will want to go right. I am assuming that the proper direction defining the relief area is the direction yielding the smallest angle between the Pin-FRP and Pin-BRP lines.

 

Two questions.

 

1) DId I miss something here?

2) Is this the kind of complexity that folks who (within their club) have deemed 'too complicated for the members', or is it the more straight-forward cases that cause concern?

 

Thanks. And my apologies as this drawing is not nearly this blurry when viewed directly on my laptop.

 

dave

 

ps. This is the 14th green at Pinehurst No. 4 (prior to the redesign of 2018).

 

 

 

As I understand it, the fairway reference point is always on the edge of the fairway. How do you get four of them?

 

Per the Model LR

 

The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point.

 

Nothing about edges. It is the point 'in the fairway' (not nearer the hole and closest to the BRP). It will be an edge in the typical case, but not this one (unless, yet again, I am wrong).

 

dave

 

ps. I defined 'four of them' to define the places in the fairway that are not nearer the hole. One of the complexities is to figure out where it is closest to the BRP. Should have said that initially.

 

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

[DaveLeeNC]

You are so right, NSX. The preamble to the LR says "edge" but they "dropped the ball" in leaving that out of the LR wording itself.

 

In regards to the wording, I agree that specifically indicating the "edge" of the fairway would have been clearest. But the nearest point in the fairway to any spot that is off the fairway will always be on the edge of the fairway.

 

I thought about this some more, and I believe that the statement DaveP made (in bold above) is prove-ably correct. This was not my initial thinking. Thanks for the clarification.

 

dave

 

ps. Here is an interesting Gedankenexperiment. Assume that your ball is lost in the fairway (plugged and you cannot find it). In this case I believe that your FRP and BRP are the same point.

[DaveLeeNC]

In my opinion, this statement in the Model Local Rule under size of relief area,

"A line from the hole through the fairway reference point (and within two club-lengths to the fairway side of that line)."

 

strongly implies that the fairway reference point is on the edge of the fairway.

 

In your diagram, you may have two (one on each side of the fairway), but not four.

 

I was intending to point out the 'range of places to be considered as FRP's. But as DaveP pointed out, it will always be an edge (if the BRP is not in the fairway).

 

And in the case of the drawing it WILL be one of two places and I assume that you get a choice (which is a different question than the one I was asking). I don't see any other way to resolve this.

 

But knowing it will always be an edge is helpful for (the probably rare) cases like this.

 

dave