Why Do We Keep Doing This To Ourselves?

[WidespreadPanic]

It tells you to go lower in loft on the Epic to reduce the spin and pick up more yards. Maybe a different shaft to help with spin - get that spin down to 2200 instead of 3k plus, and you've got something.

 

I agree 100%. Will I drop the extra 200 bucks and pick up an Epic 13.5 head and tinker with the 12 shafts sitting in my garage?... obviously.

 

But the fact that a 30 dollar stock driver from 2004 was in the ball park of the other drivers and better than most speaks volumes to what we are focusing on vs what we should be.

 

 

Edit: Hell, I have a couple of L4v's that I still bust out that bomb with the best of em.

2200 spin with a 95mph swing is not the ticket.

[Ri_Redneck]

Unless all of those drivers have shafts that suit your swing, you didn't prove anything. Trying out clubs without the proper shaft and/or altering (a little lead tape helps tons) them to suit your swing is nothing but wasted time.

 

BT

 

I think you may have missed the whole point.

 

Shafts don't matter as much as one may think or want them to. They were all wildly different like 40g sr flex to 70g stiff flex shafts. Yet produced roughly the same numbers. That's my point. I have tried out close to every Tour AD, HZRDUS, Diamana, Tensei, Speeder, etc that is out there. If it was on the forum, and was highly touted, I have hit it. They all fly the same give or take a few hundred revs and maybe a degree in launch. The only place shafts reliably differ is feel.

 

Give me a break with lead tape... Every driver and it's mother has a sliding weight that runs the back of the club and doesn't make a lick of difference where you put it if you're not smacking the center dime on the club face. If you think 5-10g of lead tape does anything significant for anyone outside of a touring PGA pro I don't think I can help you. I thought what you think too at one point.

 

I still like to buy new stuff but it's because I find the whole process just as much fun as playing, not because some new shaft with a stiffer tip will make me hit the ball straighter.

 

I'm afraid you missed MY point. FEEL is what I'm talking about. When the club doesn't feel right, your subconscious makes adjustments that you can't control. Proper balance and feel allow you to make your normal swing and have the club give you the best results. I agree that moving weight around in the head does very little, but adding or removing to get the right feel does wonders. And the shafts may give the same numbers for some, but not for all. Sure, I can grab a super flexible shafted club and work with it till I can hit it okay. But why not get one that comparable with my swing so that I don't HAVE to make it work. It should just work. You'll also notice in my sig that I have a bit of a ho'ing problem myself. However, if you check the drivers, only one has a recently released shaft. The others are shafted with what has proven to work for my swing. I also still have my 975 L-FE Ping Zing laminated blond drivers from years ago and can play them fine. but only because they FEEL right when I swing them.

 

Launch monitors are great tools, but it's not all about the numbers. As a matter of fact, I believe that LM numbers are SECONDARY. I get the feel right and THEN WORK ON THE NUMBERS. Without the right feel, you're always adjusting.

 

But hey, you do what you want, I'm just making a suggestion.

 

BT

[Juice1121]

Unless all of those drivers have shafts that suit your swing, you didn't prove anything. Trying out clubs without the proper shaft and/or altering (a little lead tape helps tons) them to suit your swing is nothing but wasted time.

 

BT

 

I think you may have missed the whole point.

 

Shafts don't matter as much as one may think or want them to. They were all wildly different like 40g sr flex to 70g stiff flex shafts. Yet produced roughly the same numbers. That's my point. I have tried out close to every Tour AD, HZRDUS, Diamana, Tensei, Speeder, etc that is out there. If it was on the forum, and was highly touted, I have hit it. They all fly the same give or take a few hundred revs and maybe a degree in launch. The only place shafts reliably differ is feel.

 

Give me a break with lead tape... Every driver and it's mother has a sliding weight that runs the back of the club and doesn't make a lick of difference where you put it if you're not smacking the center dime on the club face. If you think 5-10g of lead tape does anything significant for anyone outside of a touring PGA pro I don't think I can help you. I thought what you think too at one point.

 

I still like to buy new stuff but it's because I find the whole process just as much fun as playing, not because some new shaft with a stiffer tip will make me hit the ball straighter.

 

I'm afraid you missed MY point. FEEL is what I'm talking about. When the club doesn't feel right, your subconscious makes adjustments that you can't control. Proper balance and feel allow you to make your normal swing and have the club give you the best results. I agree that moving weight around in the head does very little, but adding or removing to get the right feel does wonders. And the shafts may give the same numbers for some, but not for all. Sure, I can grab a super flexible shafted club and work with it till I can hit it okay. But why not get one that comparable with my swing so that I don't HAVE to make it work. It should just work. You'll also notice in my sig that I have a bit of a ho'ing problem myself. However, if you check the drivers, only one has a recently released shaft. The others are shafted with what has proven to work for my swing. I also still have my 975 L-FE Ping Zing laminated blond drivers from years ago and can play them fine. but only because they FEEL right when I swing them.

 

Launch monitors are great tools, but it's not all about the numbers. As a matter of fact, I believe that LM numbers are SECONDARY. I get the feel right and THEN WORK ON THE NUMBERS. Without the right feel, you're always adjusting.

 

But hey, you do what you want, I'm just making a suggestion.

 

BT

 

I've already mentioned that the biggest factor that shafts play in terms of finding a club that fits is the feel. Second biggest IMO is the weight of the shaft (very different than the weights on the clubhead). Third being bend profile and 4th being stiffness.

 

But feel is subjective and not necessarily tangible. It is different for every player and not a reliable factor when determining the difference between clubs or clubheads. A club that feels great one day may not the next. Hence my swing changes with not playing as much this year causing issues with my current driver. Also you will commonly see worse feeling shafts produce far better numbers than their counterparts. Unfortunately it is very difficult to do on course testing without actually purchasing the clubs, or belonging to a club that has demo days, so the launch monitors are the best thing we have to take subjectivity out of the decision.

 

I'm not downplaying the importance of feel, it can make a huge difference, but it is inherently an relatively unreliable influence.

 

Just my 2 cents from a different perspective.

[BIG STU]

I haven't been able to get out on the course as much as I wanted this year. With school, work, and other hobbies, golf has taken a back seat. With that, I've seen my handicap go from a 4 to who knows what, and my driver SS has gone down from 105 and pushing 110 down to hefty 95-100. Most of my game has been ok, but I cannot for the life of me consistently get off the tee and in bounds. Everything is a huge draw/hook or a big block. If I'm getting off the tee and in the fairway I'm pretty close to scratch, but the driver has always plagued me. Even last year, at my lowest handicap, I was giving up 2-3 strokes from errant drives, but they were manageable.

 

So what do I do? Chalk it up to being rusty. No. Get some lessons. No. Hit the range or play more. No. Convince myself I need a new driver. I am on WRX aren't I!!

 

Of course it has to be that I need a new driver. Something that works better with my current swing speed. Something that loads a bit easier than my AD GT 6 that's on my Custom Epic SZ. So I hit the local GG and rummage through the new models that I have not seen and take a look at the used section. I go back and forth between the racks and the sim until I narrow it down based on feel and looks and all that. I know have proceeded to work up a sweat hitting multiple balls with a good 12 different drivers. The guys there don't even bother to ask me if I need help because this is a semi-annual occurrence. Honestly, they are saints for putting up with me, at least I may or may not have spent enough money there in the past 6 years to put one of their kids through college.

 

I now have it down to 5 different drivers. It's definitely a motley crew consisting of: Ping G 400 Max 9*, Callaway Epic 13.5*, Ping G2 10*, titleist 910 d3 10*, Taylormade M4 9.5*

 

(things that did not make the cut: M2 2016, callaway xhot, cleveland something or other, the new titleist drivers, ping g30 ls tec, callaway epic star, Callway rogue, titleist 913, cobra f8+, basically if it was on the rack I hit it)

 

My initial thoughts/rationale were Well the ping is the most forgiving club on the market with good numbers and a nice look. The epic would not be far off what I have now, but maybe the added loft would give me some more accuracy. The g2 was a throwback that honestly just felt great, not much hope for it though, I always like to throw one vintage club in there as a baseline to make sure the new stuff is performing better. I have always had a soft spot for the titleist 910 as I used it when I was driving the ball the best in my life until I cracked the face. I got a replacement, but it was never the same. So, I wanted to like this one. The taylormade... the twist face would magically help me hit the ball in the fairway (spoiler, it won't).

 

So, I proceeded to hit 7-10 balls with each taking out 1 or 2 mishits to get the best average of good tee shots. Here are the unbiased numbers I got. All SS were roughly 99-100 mph on average as I was quite warmed up by the time I had it narrowed down.

 

 

Ping G 400 Max 9*

LA - 14.8

Spin - 3105

Carry - 231

 

Callaway Epic 13.5*

LA - 17.9

Spin - 2880

Carry - 239

 

Ping G2 10*

LA - 15.8

Spin - 2700

Carry - 238

 

Titleist 910 d3 10*

LA - 13.3

Spin - 3070

Carry - 228

 

Taylormade M4 9.5*

LA - 14.9

Spin - 3000

Carry - 233

 

So what does this tell us all? A friggen Ping G2 with a regular flex shaft from 2004 that is currently sitting at a hefty $29.99 retail price is just as good as anything on the market. Full disclaimer, the epic was technically the best out of the bunch. It had clearly the best grouping as far as dispersion and accuracy, and I think lofting it down with something a bit heavier in the shaft would produce the best results, but the fact that the G2 was even close was pretty ridiculous. The G2 had the second best dispersion and arguably the best numbers as it stood with no alterations. So instead of buying the $229.99 Epic, I I took the flyer on the G2 because honestly, I would have felt like I was leaving a puppy at the shelter if I didn't take it home with me. It worked so hard to get my attention and it deserved a good home. I will be testing it against my current subzero and I will scour the internet for a deal on a 13.5* epic head to pick up and test against the 2.

 

Thank you for reading if you made it all the way through. Hit em straight!

 

Sometimes you find a club that flat out works for your swing. Looks like you found it in the G2. Have fun and score with it.

 

I have bought 8 drivers since buying a G25 which keeps going back in the bag. I have a G400 which actually works quite nicely, but the G25 is just a little longer for me time after time. Who can figure out these things? Not me.

I am going to agree with you 110%--- For the OP it seems he found the exact combo of head and shaft that works for him and at a bargain basement price to boot. I have always said it may not be the latest or greatest to work for someone. There are a lot of WRXers that seem to be good players that are still gaming Titleist 905-R drivers that are what? 10 years old or so now. COR has been maxed out for how long now? All the new drivers have basically is sliding weights that yep move weight around something us old timers have been doing with lead tape for years. The new "Twisted Sister TM" drivers oops Twisted Face aint nothing new there either just a new name for bulge and roll which was present on all good persimmon drivers and custom shaped for the player. Heck my front line driver is an oddball (see my signature) and I think it is now around 2 or 3 years old. So far I have not seen anything I hit as good as I do that thing so I am sticking

[Ri_Redneck]

Unless all of those drivers have shafts that suit your swing, you didn't prove anything. Trying out clubs without the proper shaft and/or altering (a little lead tape helps tons) them to suit your swing is nothing but wasted time.

 

BT

 

I think you may have missed the whole point.

 

Shafts don't matter as much as one may think or want them to. They were all wildly different like 40g sr flex to 70g stiff flex shafts. Yet produced roughly the same numbers. That's my point. I have tried out close to every Tour AD, HZRDUS, Diamana, Tensei, Speeder, etc that is out there. If it was on the forum, and was highly touted, I have hit it. They all fly the same give or take a few hundred revs and maybe a degree in launch. The only place shafts reliably differ is feel.

 

Give me a break with lead tape... Every driver and it's mother has a sliding weight that runs the back of the club and doesn't make a lick of difference where you put it if you're not smacking the center dime on the club face. If you think 5-10g of lead tape does anything significant for anyone outside of a touring PGA pro I don't think I can help you. I thought what you think too at one point.

 

I still like to buy new stuff but it's because I find the whole process just as much fun as playing, not because some new shaft with a stiffer tip will make me hit the ball straighter.

 

I'm afraid you missed MY point. FEEL is what I'm talking about. When the club doesn't feel right, your subconscious makes adjustments that you can't control. Proper balance and feel allow you to make your normal swing and have the club give you the best results. I agree that moving weight around in the head does very little, but adding or removing to get the right feel does wonders. And the shafts may give the same numbers for some, but not for all. Sure, I can grab a super flexible shafted club and work with it till I can hit it okay. But why not get one that comparable with my swing so that I don't HAVE to make it work. It should just work. You'll also notice in my sig that I have a bit of a ho'ing problem myself. However, if you check the drivers, only one has a recently released shaft. The others are shafted with what has proven to work for my swing. I also still have my 975 L-FE Ping Zing laminated blond drivers from years ago and can play them fine. but only because they FEEL right when I swing them.

 

Launch monitors are great tools, but it's not all about the numbers. As a matter of fact, I believe that LM numbers are SECONDARY. I get the feel right and THEN WORK ON THE NUMBERS. Without the right feel, you're always adjusting.

 

But hey, you do what you want, I'm just making a suggestion.

 

BT

 

I've already mentioned that the biggest factor that shafts play in terms of finding a club that fits is the feel. Second biggest IMO is the weight of the shaft (very different than the weights on the clubhead). Third being bend profile and 4th being stiffness.

 

But feel is subjective and not necessarily tangible. It is different for every player and not a reliable factor when determining the difference between clubs or clubheads. A club that feels great one day may not the next. Hence my swing changes with not playing as much this year causing issues with my current driver. Also you will commonly see worse feeling shafts produce far better numbers than their counterparts. Unfortunately it is very difficult to do on course testing without actually purchasing the clubs, or belonging to a club that has demo days, so the launch monitors are the best thing we have to take subjectivity out of the decision.

 

I'm not downplaying the importance of feel, it can make a huge difference, but it is inherently an relatively unreliable influence.

 

Just my 2 cents from a different perspective.

As always, to each his own. Personally, I know what I want the club to feel like and that's what I go far in every club I have. When I want,to try a different driver, I make sure I bring my little gram scale, club wrenches and lead tape. I also carry some cloth athletic tape just in case I need to build up the grip a bit (outside of course). In my 45 yrs of playing this game, I have positively confirmed that I need a demo to feel right before I ever compare it to my gamers.

 

Cheers!

 

BT

[BIG STU]

R I Redneck +1 exactly what I do--- and to think I was the only one that does crap like that--- Goes to show a Redneck is a Redneck no matter where they are from or where they live

[Lancj1]

Other hobbies ?

[Juice1121]

As always, to each his own. Personally, I know what I want the club to feel like and that's what I go far in every club I have. When I want,to try a different driver, I make sure I bring my little gram scale, club wrenches and lead tape. I also carry some cloth athletic tape just in case I need to build up the grip a bit (outside of course). In my 45 yrs of playing this game, I have positively confirmed that I need a demo to feel right before I ever compare it to my gamers.

 

Cheers!

 

BT

 

I respect your opinion, but man I couldn't imagine the look on the guys face when you show up to a fitting with lead tape and a gram scale. Like, do you really think it makes that big of a difference?

 

Look at the numbers I posted above again. You shouldn't be seeing them and thinking to yourself that one driver was better than another or that one would help me score better. The point is 5 drivers off the rack that ranged from SR flex to XS shafts, production years from 2004 to 2018, and lofts from 9-13* all put the ball in play and within 10 yards of each other. 10 yards, That means the difference between a wedge or a 9 iron approach. Which means an average proximity to hole difference of roughly 2 ft for the best player on tour in terms of proximity to hole. And believe me, we are not Rory McIlroy with wedges in our hands. Chances are it makes no tangible difference to your proximity to hole and even less to your end score.

 

The fact is, I could game any one of those drivers for the year and it won't affect my handicap more than one point either way. Missing the center of the club by a quarter of an inch will do more to the spin numbers than a roll of lead tape slapped on there. If you want to buy a new club, buy a new club, I love buying new stuff and will probably never stop doing so. If you want to bring your lead tape in and tinker around then by all means go for it. But please do not get back on here and say that it makes some huge difference to your scores.

[rxk9fan]

"The fact is, I could game any one of those drivers for the year and it won't affect my handicap more than one point either way. Missing the center of the club by a quarter of an inch will do more to the spin numbers than a roll of lead tape slapped on there. If you want to buy a new club, buy a new club, I love buying new stuff and will probably never stop doing so."

 

Man, I hear this clearly!!

​I spent all year "fitting myself" instead of playing golf. I was on these forums a ridiculous number of times talking about me testing multiple balls, multiple clubs, and multiple shafts. I worked my a@@ off on the range trying to find my perfect set. I got fitted at Club Champion and I talked about how great it was. I got fitted again on trackman knowing the last set would be perfect. The results: my game was not one bit better for it. My goal for the year: HC 5. My progress: In the middle of a long stretch of scores not exceeding the 70's...I continued to look for what was best for my swing. My HC never got below 7. Then came a stretch of worse with just enough good scores to keep the HC decent, but not good golf...or at least not better golf. So, after spending way too much time and a stupid amount of money I sold my best 3 sets of irons that had been perfect for me :-). I told myself the truth....I could play at least 7 or 8 iron heads in 7 or 8 shafts and my HC would not be affected. Limited myself to $400 bucks on the used market and said that was all my current game of golf was worth. This week with those used beauties with a shaft I had never hit before - 2 over par. I think next year I might give golf a try...instead of spending another year down the great rabbit hole of finding the perfect clubs.

[RuffingIt]

im actually pretty torn right now. IMO, i feel we all go searching for new clubs when our game and swings go sideways. I just had a driver fitting recently, and it was definitely an eye opening experience for the first time fitting process. I discovered that proper equipment helped my swing just click. I didn't buy anything as i wasn;t ready to drop money down just yet, but wrote down what clubhead, shaft and settings worked for me. Sat on it for a while, and on my lunch break today, I wanted to get some LM data on my current 7i. Within that time since my driver fitting, ive been working on piecing certain positions of my swing i struggled with for a long time (using the ground more and initiating my lower body first, blah blah...) Took those swing thoughts in a GG hitting bay with my club, tried out some comparable brands in the store, then swung the off-the-rack drivers with my 'new' swing and everything clicked. Ball speeds and carry were consistently up from the fitted driver. Dispersion was within reason. I left the store thinking, those LM numbers had to be from indian not the bow...do i really need to spend money on a custom fit driver? If this new 'swing epiphany' stays true...show i get refitted? Trying to avoid any buyers' remorse

[MarkAJones]

I like to think I understand the physics of golf but I haven't really got the will to go completely Bryson. I accept that newer driver heads are more forgiving but also know if I hit it out the middle (well a fraction up and right of middle on my TM 2017 M1) I'll get a good result.

 

With shafts though - I think it's more about feel and the confidence that inspires. When I started up I was a huge slicer. That was mainly down to me, all arms like a mad axeman. But I was also using a reg flex shaft in my eBay T909. Now I understand the mechanics of my swing and have worked hard to fix it, I can see that old shaft was a bit whippy and probably didn't help my slice.

 

I've got a stiff flex 65g HZRDUS Black in my M1 and it seems to work. I was fit for this. That said, I recently hit the Rogue SZ with an EvenFlow stiff flex in it. I think it was a 75g (or 73g). I felt it was a bit more stable than the HZRDUS insofar as I "felt" I could keep the face more where i wanted it at impact (incidentally the SZ was 20 yards longer than everything else I hit)

 

So, what do I take from all this? Well, I wouldn't want to use a senior flex shaft with my 100-105 SS. So for me, shaft is important at the extremes. I need a stiff one (!) and wouldn't want anything super flexed or super stiff. As for weight 65 - 75g I can work with, too much lighter I might lose where the clubhead is. As for tipping and all that - I thing that's Tour pro stuff for me. It may help my launch by a fraction of a degree but at my SS maybe not.

 

Overall, this is all super interesting but most of it drives me back to the basic that I need to hit the middle of the head.

[rxk9fan]

I did forget to say, fittings are just plain fun and in that itself worth something. I enjoy going over the data...I enjoy everything about it. It is also a great feeling to get those clubs on the course thinking...these clubs are for me. We tested them, we know they perform, I think I can score with them. It is very much like the honeymoon phase with new clubs in that it is enjoyable, often worth the price of admission, BUT it is going to end. One day you are going to have the bad round and then some more bad rounds will come and then someplace you are going to have to wonder...do I need fit again?

Obviously we need choices and we can't just pick up any club and play our best golf. I know I can have a good round with a 130gm X iron shaft and I can have a good round with a senior flex iron shaft but neither probably give me my best chance for consistent low scores.

BUT, at a CC fitting it is not like I am being payed by an OEM and I have their line to choose from. I mean Justin Rose is not going in the bay today and try 8 different heads from 5 manufacturers. Does it help me that I can?

I had some good rounds in the last year with the 716 CB, 716 AP2, X-Forged, P770, P750, and i200. Does one of these over the others give me a better chance to move my HC from 7 to 3? I don't think so. I have had some good rounds in the last year with the Recoil Proto 110, SteelFiber 95, KBS Tour 130, and the Modus 105. Again, I don't feel one of these is the only one I can play my best golf with.

I could go on with SW, shaft weight, MOI, etc., etc.. I had my lead tape out on the range this year. I had my TP5, TP5X, B XS, Pro V1, etc., etc. on the range and greens this year. I found the BEST ball for ME. Then I played good rounds and bad rounds with it....oooh, probably just what would have happened with all the others.

In the end I love being a gear head. It is fun to read about new clubs and try new things. I LOVE IT. I AM ADDICTED TO IT! I have a Ping G400 coming in the mail right now to "test against" my M3. But Dam@, I think soon I want to make the move back from gear head to golfer. I do think you can be both if you have the time. But I don't. If I am honest with myself, all of this year "testing" took away from working on my game.

[Juice1121]

im actually pretty torn right now. IMO, i feel we all go searching for new clubs when our game and swings go sideways. I just had a driver fitting recently, and it was definitely an eye opening experience for the first time fitting process. I discovered that proper equipment helped my swing just click. I didn't buy anything as i wasn;t ready to drop money down just yet, but wrote down what clubhead, shaft and settings worked for me. Sat on it for a while, and on my lunch break today, I wanted to get some LM data on my current 7i. Within that time since my driver fitting, ive been working on piecing certain positions of my swing i struggled with for a long time (using the ground more and initiating my lower body first, blah blah...) Took those swing thoughts in a GG hitting bay with my club, tried out some comparable brands in the store, then swung the off-the-rack drivers with my 'new' swing and everything clicked. Ball speeds and carry were consistently up from the fitted driver. Dispersion was within reason. I left the store thinking, those LM numbers had to be from indian not the bow...do i really need to spend money on a custom fit driver? If this new 'swing epiphany' stays true...show i get refitted? Trying to avoid any buyers' remorse

 

I think if you want to buy a new club just go for it. If you want something new and shiny and it will make you happier then you should buy it. I just want to make sure you don't get you're hopes up and think it will magically drop you're handicap by 4-5 strokes. It may make you feel more confident and make you more excited to play more often, and that's just as important as the numbers.

 

 

So, what do I take from all this? Well, I wouldn't want to use a senior flex shaft with my 100-105 SS. So for me, shaft is important at the extremes. I need a stiff one (!) and wouldn't want anything super flexed or super stiff. As for weight 65 - 75g I can work with, too much lighter I might lose where the clubhead is. As for tipping and all that - I thing that's Tour pro stuff for me. It may help my launch by a fraction of a degree but at my SS maybe not.

 

Overall, this is all super interesting but most of it drives me back to the basic that I need to hit the middle of the head.

 

If you don't wan't to use something you don't have to. If you like heavy shafts that are stiff that is great. But there are 50+ shafts on the market that would be stiff enough and heavy enough for you to get roughly optimal numbers. That's all I'm saying. Also a lighter shaft will not make you lose the clubhead, it will actually help you feel where the clubhead is because the heads weight relative to the shaft will be more noticeable. Minor nit pick.

 

 

 

Again, I am advocating for people to do whatever they want and whatever makes them feel better. I'm not saying shafts don't matter cause they can. What I'm saying is that I'm sick of people coming on here saying they picked up 25 yards over their past driver with some driver shaft combo that is the holy grail when in reality there is probably 50 head/shaft combos that would give you the same or similar numbers. This type of stuff gets peoples hopes up and makes them feel like they need to buy things to make them better. Golf is not a pay to play sport (outside of greens fees). Feel and looks are subjective and how much that affects your physical game is up to you. I can't tell you that if something feels worse or doesn't suit your eye while still putting up the same numbers as another that does won't make a difference, just that it doesn't have to.

[Juice1121]

Got the 13.5 head in the mail today. I'm trying to figure out a way to test it against the other 2 with some numbers and I will post the results in here.