About Sam Snead's PGA Tour wins total...

Pent08 · April 20, 2019

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but who were his competitors in those 14-16 man fields?

Darth Putter · April 20, 2019

> @Pent08 said:

> Apologies if this has already been discussed, but who were his competitors in those 14-16 man fields?

The field for the Goodall Palm Beach Round Robin was similar to the HERO World Challenge. (Palm Beach the clothing brand, the golf was played near New York City)

The event was done away with because the rank and file PGA Tour pros didn't like having to take a week off to make room for an event that consisted only of the top stars.

Shilgy · April 20, 2019

> @"Darth Putter" said:

>

> > @Pent08 said:

> > Apologies if this has already been discussed, but who were his competitors in those 14-16 man fields?

>

> The field for the Goodall Palm Beach Round Robin was similar to the HERO World Challenge. (Palm Beach the clothing brand, the golf was played near New York City)

>

> The event was done away with because the rank and file PGA Tour pros didn't like having to take a week off to make room for an event that consisted only of the top stars.

Similar other than the fact that the Hero would only have had 12 participants if run like the old Round Robin. Meaning the foreign players were not entered, just US players. The last Hero had half a dozen such players.

The PGA Tour is a world tour these days. That speaks to the depth of talent as much as most other factors.

Darth Putter · April 20, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @"Darth Putter" said:

> >

> > > @Pent08 said:

> > > Apologies if this has already been discussed, but who were his competitors in those 14-16 man fields?

> >

> > The field for the Goodall Palm Beach Round Robin was similar to the HERO World Challenge. (Palm Beach the clothing brand, the golf was played near New York City)

> >

> > The event was done away with because the rank and file PGA Tour pros didn't like having to take a week off to make room for an event that consisted only of the top stars.

>

> Similar other than the fact that the Hero would only have had 12 participants if run like the old Round Robin. Meaning the foreign players were not entered, just US players. The last Hero had half a dozen such players.

> The PGA Tour is a world tour these days. That speaks to the depth of talent as much as most other factors.

I'm sure this comes as news to Roberto Di Vicenzo and Bobby Locke, both winners of the Goodall Palm Beach Round Robin.

Shilgy · April 20, 2019

> @"Darth Putter" said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @"Darth Putter" said:

> > >

> > > > @Pent08 said:

> > > > Apologies if this has already been discussed, but who were his competitors in those 14-16 man fields?

> > >

> > > The field for the Goodall Palm Beach Round Robin was similar to the HERO World Challenge. (Palm Beach the clothing brand, the golf was played near New York City)

> > >

> > > The event was done away with because the rank and file PGA Tour pros didn't like having to take a week off to make room for an event that consisted only of the top stars.

> >

> > Similar other than the fact that the Hero would only have had 12 participants if run like the old Round Robin. Meaning the foreign players were not entered, just US players. The last Hero had half a dozen such players.

> > The PGA Tour is a world tour these days. That speaks to the depth of talent as much as most other factors.

>

> I'm sure this comes as news to Roberto Di Vicenzo and Bobby Locke, both winners of the Goodall Palm Beach Round Robin.

Good to know. Do the exceptions prove the rule? :)

Shilgy · April 21, 2019

> @FLgolfer16 said:

> yes snead, one of the all time greats, has a totally inflated win number. TW is the all time win leader QED. And 2 away from Jack's major record.

The old guard beat who was there with them. Which is all you can ask. But all sports** have evolved into something with more competition.

** Yes, there may be some sports this is not true, but with being a top athlete much more lucrative a profession than in the past it would need to be more of a smaller niche sport I would think.

pga43 · April 21, 2019

> @blblco02 said:

> Let’s not forget that tiger has over 100 victories worldwide

Yeah and Gary Player has 165 worldwide wins.

Greg

mcputter · April 21, 2019

Is Gary Player the real GOAT? I say yes, if you don't believe me just ask him.

JAMH03 · April 21, 2019

> @redfirebird08 said:

> > @straightshot7 said:

> > Brock Savage wrote:

> >

> > straightshot7 wrote:

> >

> > 2) My original claim was that the Tour Championship is as strong as the average full field Tour event such as the RBC, John Deere, Sony Open, Valspar, etc. It doesn't seem that you are even debating that point.

> >

> > Right, because that was not your original claim. Your original claim (from Sep 24) was this:

> >

> > "Is [the TC] as strong as a major, that has quality and quantity? No. But is it stronger than your average Tour event that does not have all of the top 30 players? Yes."

> >

> > The average tour event is not an opposite field event, played the same week as a major or WGC, that doesn't have a single top 50 player in the field. The average tour event, which redfirebird and I were discussing in the context of the events Tiger played other than majors or WGCs, has a SoF of about 500 points. Tiger doesn't play the Barbisol, with a SoF of 11 points. He plays Bay Hill, Quail Hollow, the Memorial.

> >

> > I haven't checked thoroughly, but I'm pretty sure that not even the Memorial has all the top 30 players in the field. So in effect, your original claim was that the TC was stronger than the Memorial.

> >

> > That is rubbish, of course, and even you know it, so now you're picking the half dozen weakest events on Tour, including the Barbisol, and trying to pass those off as "average events."

> >

> > So your question about "Do I honestly believe..." is disingenuous on two counts. First, I never said that the TC was weaker than any of the events you listed, and second, none of the events you listed qualifies as an average event. They are the very weakest events on Tour, and you know it, because that's why you picked them.

> >

> > What I do say is that the TC is weaker than a full field event with anywhere near a comparable strength of field (as calculated by the OWGR), because the Strength of Field doesn't consider field size. For example, the Waste Management Phoenix Open had a SoF of 477 this year, compared to the TC's 510. It had only five of the world's top ten players, only 12 of the top 30, only 51 of the top 100. That is what I'd call an average event, not the Barbasol.

> >

> > And I'm saying it would be harder to win in Phoenix than the TC, because it had 130 players in the field. None of the five world top ten players in the field finished in the top ten for the tournament. It was won by Gary Woodland, ranked #53, in a playoff over Chez Revie, ranked #93.

> >

> > We've got to have rankings, and the OWGR is doing the best it can, but it's hardly an exact science, especially with a two-year window. Even the TC, which had only a 3-week window, should have had Bryson winning it, based on recent performance. Instead, he barely made the top 20 out of 30, and it was won by a guy who was ranked 1200 less than a year ago. Anybody with a tour card can win if he gets hot, and the more players in the field, the better than chance that one of them will get hot.

> >

> > Look at it this way --- if the TC had a sponsor's exemption, and I got in, I'd finish in the top 30, and get 2.8 points, which is more than Spieth, Finau, Matsuyama, and Molinari combined got in Phoenix. That should tell you something.

> >

> > Okay, we're arguing semantics at this point.

> >

> > I never meant to say that the Tour Championship was a stronger field than a Tournament like the Memorial or Bay Hill. I was trying to refer to tournaments that have a full field, but only have 5 or so top players, of which there are many.

> >

> > I was responding to the idea (that some people DO promote) that a win at the Tour Championship is sub-par because there are only 30 players.

> >

> > All I was attempting to say is that that claim isn't really valid since we never bat an eye at much weaker fields, simply because they are "full" field.

> >

> > I posted 47 events earlier, that were considered the PGA Tour events for 2017-2018. Of those, I would say that the Tour Championship has a stronger overall field than the Safeway Open, CIMB Classic, the CJ Cup, Sanderson Farms, Shriner's, OHL Classic, RSM Classic, Sentry TOC, Career Builder, Valspar, Corales Puntacana, RBC, Valero, Quicken Loans, Greenbrier, John Deere, Barbasol, Barracuda, Wyndham.

> >

> > That's 19 of the 47. I may have missed a couple. So it's really not crazy to say the Tour Championship is stronger than many regular Tour events and about average on Tour for strength of field. That's all I was attempting to say. My point was that it shouldn't be considered an illegitimate win because of having 30 players. And I don't see how you disproved that whatsoever.

> >

> > That's 19 events. I'm not choosing the weakest events only. There are a lot of weak events out there compared to the Tour Championship.

> >

> > You may have never felt that the Tour Championship was a weak field but the person I was responding to did. They said "Beating 29 is a lot easier than beating 100+ in a regular event." That's the idea I was responding to. And I still think it's nonsense. I posted 19 events that I think Tiger would have an easier time beating.

> >

> > This poster sounds like they are lumping in all "regular events" together. And my point was there are some REALLY WEAK "regular" events. Do we not think Tiger would have ~20 more Tour wins if he played in events like the John Deere, Safeway Open, Wyndham his whole career? Of course he would.

>

> I didn't respond to you back when you initially posted this, but I will now since the thread got bumped today. I think Tiger would have a harder time winning a tournament like the John Deere compared to the Tour Championship. Not just because of the field size either.

>

> Tiger is a more conservative player than a lot of other guys on Tour. John Deere event is a birdie-fest every single year. -20 or deeper is the winning score. East Lake for Tour Championship is not an easy golf course. That tough course fits more with Tiger's approach to the game. He would much rather play a really tough course where the winning score is -5 from 30 total players than an easy course with 120+ guys being very aggressive in a birdiefest.

> @redfirebird08 said:

> > @JAMH03 said:

>

> > How many instances do we have where the 200th guy competes with the number 1 for multiple rounds?

>

> Better question is why are almost all of the biggest winners ever born before 1950? Maybe you think the depth is identical from 1940 or 1950 or 1960 or 1970 or 1980 compared to now. I think that's absurd and I believe the PGA Tour all-time wins list is proof of this.

>

> Michael Campbell had to squeak into the U.S. Open through an international qualifying tournament that did not even exist until the 2000's. He took down #1 ranked Tiger at Pinehurst for the U.S. Open title. That was in 2005 and it has only gotten deeper every single year since that time.

So thats one? Still looking for legitimate reason why top 30 fields are not reasonable level of comp?