6 years of practice....that should have taken 10 minutes!!

[Metalhead]

Check this out....maybe I figured something out????

I wanted to share this thought or concept, as it is very simple but I don't ever remember it being taught or talked about much, but i believe its ever bit as important as anything else in the golf swing...please correct me if I'm wrong!

I'm a 5 handicap(started playing 6 years ago)- that can play like 15 or scratch(just like most of us)... I am constantly working on the fundmentals- grip, posture, stance, set up..etc.but recently I picked up on something while practicing at the range and has made the game much more simple for me and it is:

How to hold the golf club at address- ---Not to be confused with your Grip(a good grip is vital too)--- this sounds simple enough, but I don't think anyone has showed me or talked about it in the way I now understand it.... But to actually hold each and every club SQUARE to the target...now that doesn't mean sole the club at address and take it from there( I believe I have been holding the clubs at address incorrectly since the day started this game- which has lead to not always knowing where the ball was going to go) I mostly held each club like it was soled- and often got the exact results of that position(often thinking how messed up my swing was- when i hit it high or right or tried to overcompensate for that address position etc) when my swing was for the most part fine except for my address position- which is hugely important...

... It means focusing on the leading edge of the club squarely pointed at the target- this I found tends to have the hands ahead of the or at the ball(and maintaining the angle during the backswing and through impact the results have been earth shattering for me!!- from the driver, 3w, hybrid and irons!!) I haven't hit such on target, on trajectory shots as often. My scores have dropped instantly and the game feels alot less effort and much simplied. and I have gained soo much control over the ball- its awesome!

But perhaps this is just my Nivana and everyone else already knew this...anyway thanks for listening!

I would love to take some pics and show what I had been seeing for the past 6 years to what I see now and how I set up!

[Ezgolfer]

Great...

 

I still have troubel understanding what you are saying . Any graphics etc...

I think this is a zone of confusion for me .

I usually look at the last groove line being square . Is that correct .

[Metalhead]

Great...

 

I still have troubel understanding what you are saying . Any graphics etc...

I think this is a zone of confusion for me .

I usually look at the last groove line being square . Is that correct .

 

 

Yes- sounds correct. with irons I think its easier to square up than woods- in fact with woods is where i figure out how not square i was and once I saw where square was with the woods the lightbulb effect hit with all the clubs...

 

I may work on getting some pics for this thread a bit later.

[GolfTitan]

Some pictures would be a big help, I think I understand what your talking about though.

[AcesAZ]

I think that the fundamentals are the most important but also most overlooked by most amateur players. I still have trouble lining up too far left, What happens is I'll think I pulled the shot but in reality I hit it right where I was aimed. I always have to check my alignment. Your's sounds like a setup issue as well. What happens for you and me is when we setup wrong is you have to make a compensation in the swing to hit it on line. Makes the game alot harder, obviously.

 

Proper grip, alignment, posture, and setup should be able to be done correctly on every swing. They are not hard to do you just have to have a routine.

[Metalhead]

I think that the fundamentals are the most important but also most overlooked by most amateur players. I still have trouble lining up too far left, What happens is I'll think I pulled the shot but in reality I hit it right where I was aimed. I always have to check my alignment. Your's sounds like a setup issue as well. What happens for you and me is when we setup wrong is you have to make a compensation in the swing to hit it on line. Makes the game alot harder, obviously.

 

Proper grip, alignment, posture, and setup should be able to be done correctly on every swing. They are not hard to do you just have to have a routine.

 

 

Fundamental are Key! I agree.....At least for me, this issue is not alignment in terms of my feet and shoulder in relationship to the target- but rather the specific angle of the clubface in relationship to the ball and therefore the target...As silly as it sounds, I don't believe I knew what square to the target LOOKS LIKE with the clubface, specifically with the woods- driver,3w and hybrid and irons too....I also don't think it is intuitive to know what that looks like either, as you ground or sole any club in the bag it does not necessary set up square to the target- 90% of the time its way open to the right(for a righty) and adding loft..... and when you do set the face correctly behind the ball your hands are again in ideal position- funny how that works!

 

SO I simply brought this up, as it has taken me 6 years to figure this out(slow maybe, but not Boo slow!) and now that I have, I wish I had seen this along time ago as the results of this simple adjustment is stunning to my game- in every aspect of ballflight and accuracy.(confindence is the bonus too- knowing as I look down on the ball where the ball will be!)

[jeremyblre21]

Thanks for sharing I will give it a try

[stevestrike]

Pics? Drawings? MS Paint BMP? I'm not really sure at all what's going on here. But if you've got the magic secret, let me in!

[mikpga]

Sounds like you are describing a slight forward press with the hands.

[Shaitan]

Yeah, if you have floorboards or something of the like at home, line up your feet along the boards and line up the club along the perpendicular lines at the ends of the boards and you'll find what a square, slight forward press looks like :rolleyes:. I find it often feels a lot more open then normal.

[ej002]

I am guessing this is what you are talking about?

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?ac...st&id=87735 (this is in Hayam's Signature)

 

 

But, I agree (I think) that if you line the club up like you would want it to be at impact, then grip it - you will be more consistant. The thing that you want to strike the ball w/ a slightly open face so the ball LEAVES the face when it is square. So when do what you are describing, I have it a touch open.

[Metalhead]

I wasn't talking about a"forward press per se", however that may be the result of squaring the clubface.... But I was simply saying I was Never Taught or nor did know what a square face looked like..until now... and once I did, I no longer needed to compensate with my swing and the game got alot easier.

[JeffMann]

Metalhead

 

Maybe this photo represents what you are talking about.

 

 

Here is Leadbetter setting the clubhead behind the ball so that the grooves are at right angles to the ball-target line. Note that a square clubface causes the clubshaft to have slight forward lean at address - the degree depending on the degree of offset of the club.

 

I personally think of the situation differently. I know, in advance, that the impact alignment is not the same as the address position alignment. I know that if I want the clubface to be square at impact, I also know that I will have forward shaft lean at impact with my hands slightly forward (hands opposite left inner thigh) of my address position hands (hands closer to the center of my stance). I prefer to have my hands more central at address, and therefore I have to ensure that the clubface is slightly closed at address if I want my clubface to be square at impact. If my clubface is a few degrees closed at address, then I know that it will be square at impact - this next photo-diagram shows the relative position of the hands at address/impact.

 

 

Note that at address, if one prefers to have the clubshaft roughly perpendicular to the ball-target line, that the clubface will be relatively closed. To check that the clubface will be square at impact, one merely has to lean the clubshaft forward about 6 degrees and ensure that the clubface is square at impact.

 

However, this theoretical logic of setting up the clubface to be square at impact has to take the following fact into consideration - the clubface closes about 1-2 degrees while the ball is in contact with the clubface. The ball remains in contact with the clubface for about 4/1000 of a second, and during that time period, the clubface is closing about 1-2 degrees. Therefore, if one wants a square clubface at ball-clubface separation, then one really wants the clubface to be 1-2 degrees open at the exact moment the club first impacts the ball. That means that if one sets up with the clubface square at address, then it will likely be very close to 1-2 degrees open at the exact moment of first ball contact and that could be ideal setup arrangement.

 

Jeff.

[Ezgolfer]

Sounds like you are describing a slight forward press with the hands.

 

 

Exactly . If you square the leading edge , there is slight forward press and the clubface is a bit closed at address compared with standard lie set up. I think that is helping you strike down on the ball and better compression with hands leading the shaft . Simlar position can be achieved during the downswing at impact with standard lie set up .

 

If you don't put a good swing or have occasional OTT tendencies this will result in nasty push or slice .

[Metalhead]

Metalhead

 

Maybe this photo represents what you are talking about.

 

 

Here is Leadbetter setting the clubhead behind the ball so that the grooves are at right angles to the ball-target line. Note that a square clubface causes the clubshaft to have slight forward lean at address - the degree depending on the degree of offset of the club.

 

I personally think of the situation differently. I know, in advance, that the impact alignment is not the same as the address position alignment. I know that if I want the clubface to be square at impact, I also know that I will have forward shaft lean at impact with my hands slightly forward (hands opposite left inner thigh) of my address position hands (hands closer to the center of my stance). I prefer to have my hands more central at address, and therefore I have to ensure that the clubface is slightly closed at address if I want my clubface to be square at impact. If my clubface is a few degrees closed at address, then I know that it will be square at impact - this next photo-diagram shows the relative position of the hands at address/impact.

 

 

Note that at address, if one prefers to have the clubshaft roughly perpendicular to the ball-target line, that the clubface will be relatively closed. To check that the clubface will be square at impact, one merely has to lean the clubshaft forward about 6 degrees and ensure that the clubface is square at impact.

 

However, this theoretical logic of setting up the clubface to be square at impact has to take the following fact into consideration - the clubface closes about 1-2 degrees while the ball is in contact with the clubface. The ball remains in contact with the clubface for about 4/1000 of a second, and during that time period, the clubface is closing about 1-2 degrees. Therefore, if one wants a square clubface at ball-clubface separation, then one really wants the clubface to be 1-2 degrees open at the exact moment the club first impacts the ball. That means that if one sets up with the clubface square at address, then it will likely be very close to 1-2 degrees open at the exact moment of first ball contact and that could be ideal setup arrangement.

 

Jeff.

 

Thanks Jeff- this is what I was reaching to say in much simplier terms- but you got it!

[Ezgolfer]

Jeffman as always, you are very helpful . I appreciate the time you spend to give us detailed insight and instructions .

 

Do you recommend doing the sort of set up metalhead is eluding to, or is it sort of individual swing specific ?

[Skaffa77]

This is VERY good topic as I have debated this with a buddy many times. He constantly states that my club head is slightly open at address and I state that his club head is slightly closed (or hooded) at address. I try to keep my hands and shaft neutral (no forward press) at address where my buddy always seems to have a slight forward lean with the shaft. We both have unique swings, but the funny part is that he tends to miss "low-left" and I tend to miss "high-right". :rolleyes:

 

Ironically, I've never been taught this by a teacher either. Every time my buddy tries to show me how he aligns the club head, I get nervous because it looks way too closed and when I try to hit the ball with his alignment, I either duck-hook it or over-compensate for the closed face and hit a slice.

[JeffMann]

EZGolfer

 

I personally don't think that there is a fixed rule regarding clubshaft position at address setup. I personally find it useful to have my clubshaft perpendicular to the ball-target line, and I then shuffle a little around the clubshaft to get my body aligned perpendicular to the clubshaft. Experience has taught me that I need to have my clubface minimally open at address if I want it to be square at impact - but that is based on knowledge of my intrinsic swing pattern, which is marginally OTT and marginally out-to-in.

 

I think that golfers can experiment to find what works best for them. I don't like to see golfers push their hands well forward at address, as if they are mimicing the impact alignment. The hands should be left-centralised between the thighs or just inside the left thigh at address.

 

Another interesting point is that short irons with large amounts of loft can readily aim left if they are held even minimally closed at address - see next photo.

 

 

A rod has been attached to the clubface with a magnetic base. Note how far left the clubface actually points even though the bottom grooves of the clubface are slightly closed to the ball-target line. One has to pay special attention when using short irons - to ensure that the clubface is not even slightly closed.

 

Jeff.

[larrybud]

Another interesting point is that short irons with large amounts of loft can readily aim left if they are held even minimally closed at address - see next photo.

 

 

A rod has been attached to the clubface with a magnetic base. Note how far left the clubface actually points even though the bottom grooves of the clubface are slightly closed to the ball-target line. One has to pay special attention when using short irons - to ensure that the clubface is not even slightly closed.

 

What's the difference? If the club is closed 5 degrees, the club is closed 5 degrees, regardless of the loft.

 

Where loft really matters is when the ball is above your feet.

[JeffMann]

Larrybud

 

You are correct that if the sweetspot of a short iron clubface is closed 5 degrees, then it is 5 degrees closed - irrespective of the loft. However, many beginner golfers do not look at the sweetspot of their clubface when aligning the clubface and they often get fooled by looking at the upper or lower edge of the clubface, which is not necessarily parallel to the grooves near the sweetspot of the clubface.

 

Jeff.

[Ezgolfer]

Another interesting point is that short irons with large amounts of loft can readily aim left if they are held even minimally closed at address - see next photo.

 

 

I had this problem the whole day today missing left with this alignment specially with short irons today.

[JeffMann]

Another interesting point is that short irons with large amounts of loft can readily aim left if they are held even minimally closed at address - see next photo.

 

 

I had this problem the whole day today missing left with this alignment specially with short irons today.

 

 

I think that it's a very common mistake, because golfers don't realise the implications of the fact that the clubhead is offset relative to the clubshaft. To aim correctly, one should be aiming the sweetspot (which is 3-6 groooves up from the bottom of the club) at the target. If one simply soles the club on the ground, the sweetspot will often be slightly closed relative to the ball-target line - because the clubhead is offset relative to the clubshaft. One needs to twirl the clubshaft in one's hand to make sure that the sweetspot grooves (roughly 3-6 grooves up from the bottom of the club) are correctly aligned.

 

Jeff.

[8thehardway]

Another interesting point is that short irons with large amounts of loft can readily aim left if they are held even minimally closed at address - see next photo.

 

 

I had this problem the whole day today missing left with this alignment specially with short irons today.

 

 

I think that it's a very common mistake, because golfers don't realise the implications of the fact that the clubhead is offset relative to the clubshaft. To aim correctly, one should be aiming the sweetspot (which is 3-6 groooves up from the bottom of the club) at the target. If one simply soles the club on the ground, the sweetspot will often be slightly closed relative to the ball-target line - because the clubhead is offset relative to the clubshaft. One needs to twirl the clubshaft in one's hand to make sure that the sweetspot grooves (roughly 3-6 grooves up from the bottom of the club) are correctly aligned.

 

Jeff.

 

If the clubhead is offset relative to the shaft, why wouldn't the sweet spot be just an poor an alignment spot as a club's leading edge?

 

I'd like to understand this fully, because I've always soled the club thinking it was lined up on my target line and invariably pull my wedges (or so I believed) and hit very low hooks with everything else. I can never get an iron to fade and I'm dying for good trajectory.

[JeffMann]

Another interesting point is that short irons with large amounts of loft can readily aim left if they are held even minimally closed at address - see next photo.

 

 

I had this problem the whole day today missing left with this alignment specially with short irons today.

 

 

I think that it's a very common mistake, because golfers don't realise the implications of the fact that the clubhead is offset relative to the clubshaft. To aim correctly, one should be aiming the sweetspot (which is 3-6 groooves up from the bottom of the club) at the target. If one simply soles the club on the ground, the sweetspot will often be slightly closed relative to the ball-target line - because the clubhead is offset relative to the clubshaft. One needs to twirl the clubshaft in one's hand to make sure that the sweetspot grooves (roughly 3-6 grooves up from the bottom of the club) are correctly aligned.

 

Jeff.

 

If the clubhead is offset relative to the shaft, why wouldn't the sweet spot be just an poor an alignment spot as a club's leading edge?

 

I'd like to understand this fully, because I've always soled the club thinking it was lined up on my target line and invariably pull my wedges (or so I believed) and hit very low hooks with everything else. I can never get an iron to fade and I'm dying for good trajectory.

 

 

Hopefully, you will find this composite photo instructive.

 

 

The green dotted line represents the ball-target line. In the first image, I simply soled the club on the ground while trying to keep the clubshaft at right angles to the ball-target line. I placed my camera above the club and took the photograph. The red circle on the clubface represents the clubface's sweetspot. Note that the sweetspot and lower edge of the club is slightly closed to the ball-target line.

 

In the second image, I kept the clubshaft in the same vertical position, but I rotated the clubshaft clockwise along its longitudinal axis (as seen from above) by approximately 1/3". Note that the clockwise rotation opens the clubface and it is now far more square to the ball-target line. In other words, one cannot simply place the sole of the club on the ground and then grip the club, and presume that it will be square to the ball-target line. Depending on the neutrality of one's left hand grip, one needs to first grip the club in the air so that the clubface is parallel to the back of the left hand, and one then needs to place the club lightly behind the ball. The clubface should be square to the ball-target line (like image 2) if you have a neutral grip and the back of the left hand faces the target. If the back of your left hand faces the target, but the clubface is slightly closed to the ball-target line (like image 1) then, you need to twirl the clubshaft clockwise in your hand and then regrip the club - and repeat the procedure until the clubface is square to the ball-target line when the back of your left hand faces the target.

 

Jeff.

 

p.s. Note that the top line of the clubhead appears perpendicular to the ball-target line in image 1, and slightly open in image 2 - that's why you must never look at the top line of the clubhead when aligning the clubface.

[jcjr34]

I read what MetalHead is referring to a few years ago (can't remember where tho, I think GD). Basically what most amateur golfers make the mistake of doing at adress, specifically w/ the driver, is that they let it sit totally flat on the sole at address in which they can see much more of the face than they should, this automatically opens up the clubface. To clarify this, rest the butt end on an object at about the height your hands are at normal address w/ the clubhead sitting on the floor and notice that the clubface is open to your target line.

If you were to compare an iron sitting flat on its sole at address, it would be square to the target line, the iron doesn't have that deep sole behind like the driver does. So at set up, the only part of the driver's sole that should really be touching the ground is the front 1/4 of it, kind of like making that forward press that was referred to, and you should hardly see the club face.

[kebeal]

Short irons and wedges are designed with a "hook face" that allows them to be played back in our stance. This is to compensate for the far forward hand position at impact relative to the clubhead.

[8thehardway]

Jeff,

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and expand on something that's plagued me my entire golfing life. I'll update my experiences within the week.

 

John

[KMeloney]

Hopefully, you will find this composite photo instructive.

 

 

p.s. Note that the top line of the clubhead appears perpendicular to the ball-target line in image 1, and slightly open in image 2 - that's why you must never look at the top line of the clubhead when aligning the clubface.

 

So, what was the OP doing [incorrectly] to line the club up at address? To me, it's perfectly obvious that the club in pic one is very closed. Now, I'm not suggesting that everyone ought to know that -- I'm simply wondering if the OP (and maybe most beginners) was using the TOPLINE of the club to align it. OR, is he suggesting that he soled the club, and that the club might twist on the ground, falling to its natural sole position, and that he thought that whatever position it was then in was the correct position?

 

It's not clear to me.

 

I was reading through Harvey P's Little Red Book recently where he states something to the effect that when gripping (or was it aligning?) the club, the manufacturer will show you how it should be held (suggesting that just by setting the club infront of you, it will be clear how the face, shaft, and lie should be aligned). I don't think it's clear just by gripping the club, and I don't think Harvey was clear in this statement. I think there can be a LOT of manipulation of the club that can lead a person to think he's gripping it correctly when, in fact, he's not.

 

Here's an example of why I think it's not clear: I sometimes play a shot out from under trees where I play my 8-iron off my back foot with the face extremely closed with my hands way forward (where I essentially hit the ball low and a short distance) with the club face SQURE TO THE TARGET LINE. Now, this isn't the way I'd normally hold an 8-iron -- but I can still have it square to the target line this way by leaning the shaft and turning the shaft and whatnot. This is an extreme example, but it just shows that it's really NOT terribly clear how the shaft and face and everything ought to be pointing at address -- or at least that there's no "one way" to get the face square as it relates to the rest of the club.

 

If the main point of this thread is that you need to use the grooves in the face to square the club, then I think that's clear, and I agree. But that still might not make it clear how the use of a forward press, or ball position relative to your feet, etc., all interfaces here.... Or does it?

 

Thanks,

 

/< / /2 /<

[hoganfan924]

Wow,

 

There have been some good points made but there's also so much unnecessary confusion in this thread. Jeffmann is correct that sometimes less experienced golfers are confused by the topline of the club (I believe because the the divergent/convergent line effect of the topline and leading edge) that often causes them to hood short irons at address. I always recommend taking the grip with the club held straight out in front of you, horizontal to the ground with the bottom groove of the club perpendicular to the ground.

 

However, some great players have also addressed the ball with an open clubface (Hogan for one)

 

Both pics Jeffmann posted show the clubface closed (Right side pic is just slightly closed).

 

If a short irons sits very closed when you sole it, you could also get it to sit very open when you sole it. This effect is due to the toe being up in the air at address (it should be to some degree). However, many beginners and less experienced golfers buy off the rack stuff that isn't lie adjusted for their swings. If they require a flatter lie, their off the rack clubs will point left, even when the leading edge or grooves appear square. This effect of lies that are too upright is magnified the greater the loft of the club.

[8thehardway]

Jeff,

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and expand on something that's plagued me my entire golfing life. I'll update my experiences within the week.

 

John

 

Ended up taking the afternoon off and going to an almost deserted local muni. Before going I checked my alignment using some 2x4s (thanks, Shaitan!) and i was setting up a bit closed on SW and 7 iron. Put some tape on the soles and impact was close to heel and angled left.

 

On the first hole I hit a dozen balls with a 5 iron and another dozen with the SW, taking care to align the sweet spot toward the target. What an eye-opener. High trajectory at last with a hint of draw instead of a hook. Something must have carried over to the driver because I hit one 260 (vs my normal 225) and used a 5 iron to get on the green from 175 yards. Oly get on once or twice a year and never with an iron.

 

7 wood and hybrid flew higher then I thought possible... trajectories that almost brought tears to my eyes. Ended things by throwing 'darts' at the flag with a Lob Wedge.

 

Still have to internalize this and also get familiar with a new stance, especially for the wedges and tee shots with irons, but it was the most enjoyable practice session I've ever had.

 

JeffMann, you have my sincere thanks for sharing your enviable depth of information with such clarity. I've been playing 11 years (since I was 49), and have a 7 h/c. I've taken over 50 lessons and never came across such information or feedback - it's like a Masters-level course on the golf swing.

 

I'm telling my golf buddies about this incredible resource - hopefully they'll follow my lead and explore your other observations.

 

John