New World Top 100 Courses Ranking Golf Magazine

[LICC]

I answered already above. None of your questions bear whatsoever on your having an opinion re bias toward older courses.

So you are incapable of forming an intelligent opinion on the issue. All you have are personal insults. Got it.

[Schley]

Intelligent opinion=playing course

ignorant opinion=never played course

So who has the intelligent opinion? Enough already with your trolling posts.

[FairwayFred]

As far as the question of are course rankings inherently biased towards old courses.

Overall I am pretty good w the courses on the list. I could nit pick a few to remove (ones I've actually played) and pick a few to add (again, courses I've actually played) but overall I think this is a pretty good list.

I think the world list will always have more older courses on it due to the way golf developed in GB & I. There were alot more courses built in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland before 1940 than there have been after and much of the good, coastal links land was used up then or is not able to be used now due to environmental regulations. So therefor you have a bunch of older courses from this area and alot less newer ones.

I also think rankings and raters tend to be biased against golf carts (which is fine w me I am the same) so alot of the modern cart ball courses lose points because of that. I have no issue with this as in my own personal rankings if a course isn't walkable it doesn't make my list I love to walk and think it's an integral part of my game. So older course get a boost generally because none of them were built for carts.

Where I do see a bias that isn't really fair is in where courses are ranked in the list. I don't think it's possible to build the #1 ranked course in the world even if you built a course that was far and away better than anything else on amazing land etc. It would and could never find its way to #1. There are just too many "immovable object courses" towards the top of the list that you can't ever move. In that way I'd say the rankings are unfairly biased towards older and established top courses.

My personal opinion taste tends to lean into more natural courses with walkable routings, elevation change, interesting greens and preferably an ocean or some other inspiring view (that one is least important but a nice addition). I absolutely LOVE links golf. So my personal list is filled with lots of older courses because that's when most courses like that were built. But again my 2 favorite courses are modern courses that fit that description so I don't believe I am biased at all on when courses were built. I just judge them for what they are on the ground.

 

[FairwayFred]

Which post did you answer my question? I don't see it. Was it the one where you parrotted what a couple Golf Mag editors said?

How many of the courses on this list have you played?

I've posted plenty of opinion in this thread and it's actually based on playing these golf courses.

[LICC]

This was the best response yet. If you would just cut out the rude insults we could have a good discussion here.
Excellent point about the GB&I courses. However I think the trend of older courses dominating the list applies looking at just the US courses too. I think you may be on to something with the anti-golf cart bias, which someone else above also mentioned. That is a bit of a shame. I also love walking the courses and always walk, but if the course has cart paths that are incorporated well into the course, and the course routing is otherwise not affected in its walkability, I don't consider the cart paths a negative. As @Roadking2003 said earlier, carts overall are good things if they allow people to play who otherwise would have difficulty. A course that smartly works cart paths into its design shouldn't be knocked for it.

[FairwayFred]

Is this the post that is supposed to answer my question? Cuz this does not answer my question at all. I asked how you determined which of the courses you had not played did not deserve to be on the list and how you decided the ones that should be added that you had not played. I also specifically asked about Moraine and Old Town.

[LICC]

Intelligent opinion = based on research, data, and thoughful analysis

Ignorant opinion = just saying whatever the Confidential Guide and GCA says

So who has the intelligent opinion? Enough already with your inane insults.

[FairwayFred]

A good discussion also requires you to answer the questions I ask and not just continue to evade and dodge them.

 

I don't think any course is getting knocked down at all just for having cart paths or offering carts as long as the routing is still very walkable w short green to tee transitions etc. It's the cart ball courses that are not very walkable but have great individual holes that get knocked down. And I also think we could argue about the proliferation of golf carts being good for golf. I think they have it right in GB&I. Offer carts but only to those who NEED them. I think golf in the USA has lost a little bit of itself when you see so many people who never walk and only ride as a default. It also dives up the cost of the game considerably. I know some would say that these people would not play otherwise but I don't think that's the case as seen in other parts of the world.

[LICC]

I just went through the list again. I have played 11 of them. I am not going to name or give detail on any private club that I have played.

I agree about the use of carts overall. I always laugh when I see guys twenty years younger than me taking carts on a beautiful day and on an easily walkable course.

[FairwayFred]

Again this just doenst make sense. If a member who hosted you is going to see your post, identify you by your screen name, and then get offended bcuz they hosted you at their club and you posted negative things about it online that damage is already done. You have already named these courses as over rated and not being worthy of being in the top 150. Refusing to say if you have played them is illogical but I guess that's where we are.

[Schley]

So intelligence doesn't require any experience to gain it? If you needed brain surgery do you want a guy who has done it before, or someone who read about it on the internet?

[FairwayFred]

Sorry you cannot have an intelligent opinion about a golf course you have never played and have no experience with. It's just not possible. Even watching Augusta National on TV for hours every year for your whole life you cannot begin to understand the course. When I went there for the first time I was shocked by the incredible elevation change and how small the greens are compared to how huge they look on TV. Standing on those greens they look vastly different than what I was expecting. Id done all the research possible on Augusta, seen it on TV for hours and hours and it still did not prepare me for what I found. I'd say Augusta is the course that people who have not played it have the most information on.

 

Anyone who thinks they have an intelligent opinion on a course they have never seen is just kidding themselves.

[cardoustie]

Sad to report I have only played 10 of the 100

3 The Old Course

7 Royal Melbourne West

32 Carnoustie

43 Cabot Cliffs

53 Bethpage Black

68 TPC Sawgrass

71 Kingsbarns

85 Muirfield Village

95 St Georges

96 Royal Melbourne East

The only course I played twice in the list is TOC.

Tied for first from my list are Cabot Cliffs and Kingsbarns and the Royal Melbourne courses.

Open to discuss any of my 10 ;o)

[LICC]

How do you rank the other 6?

[FairwayFred]

How do you rank the 90 you haven't played? Which ones do you think don't belong?

[cardoustie]

GOOD QUESTION: Here we go

7 Royal Melbourne West

43 Cabot Cliffs / 71 Kingsbarns

96 Royal Melbourne East

85 Muirfield Village

3 The Old Course

32 Carnoustie

68 TPC Sawgrass

53 Bethpage Black

95 St. Georges

I've said many times in posts about courses that Cabot Cliffs is Canada's version of Kingsbarns

[LICC]

Excellent. Are there other courses not in the list that you would put in your top-ten?

[cardoustie]

Would be hard to rank courses I have not played.

I can say I was on property at Augusta for a Masters and Shinnecock for a US Open. They deserve a top 10. Crazy good properties

Got winded out of Muirfield on my Scotland trip in 2012 .. but grabbed a single malt and did some wondering (we took our van there). It fully deserves it's spot way up there on the list

Have also been on property and not played Cypress Point and Pebble. Incredible settings.

Those 2 and of course being on site at Diamante Dunes, Cabot Links and Kapalua (not on list) and not playing are big regrets

My bad, just realized, I have played TPC Sawgrass twice as well

[FairwayFred]

I was joking but good answer!

[LICC]

Crazy question- how can you rank 90 courses that you've never played?!

[FairwayFred]

I don't know, is that past the number of courses you can reasonably rank without playing them? Personally it's not something I would ever think of doing (my post was in jest obvs) so maybe your better equipped to answer?

[cardoustie]

I've played almost 500 different courses

Here are some excellent ones that could've gotten in ... or a mention .. or may have been there in the past

Hamilton G&CC and The National and Shaughnessy GC (like better than St. Georges)

Mauna Kea

 

[Zigzog]

I have played a lot of them.

Being from Scotland I think I am biased towards local courses, but by no means would I class The Old Course as being the best course in Scotland - I made this comment on a few other threads. Royal Aberdeen, Royal Dornoch, Turnberry and Gullane are all better for me. I also would prefer to play at Panmure, Western Gailes or Loch Lomond. I get all the history, but this shouldn't really reflect on the ranking in my eyes (although I do understand why it does)

Away from that I have been lucky to play some of the best courses in the US, Cypress Point is amazing and I also loved Oakmont - although it is easily the toughest course I have ever played. Pebble beach I liked, but was a bit dissapointed in truth. Merion I shot 2 under (yeah I know!) and enjoyed it, although it was not one of my favourites. I have played Augusta a couple of times, but never really enjoyed it. I think the reality was that it could never live up to what I expected or hoped, maybe similar to Pebble Beach.

So there you have it, from those I have played around the world my favourite course is Royal Aberdeen and my 2nd favourite is Turnberry - totally biased but at least I am honest. I like playing my golf and then driving home! :)

In the US my favourite was Cypress Point and my second fav as Oakmont - even though I took a complete beating!

 

[cardoustie]

I had a feeling you were being a smarty pants but in some spots .... going to events, caddying etc you could offer up opinions / ranks

[cardoustie]

like you, I had HIGHER expectations for Carnoustie and TOC going over to Scotland (my grandmother's side was Scots)

Going to a course without a load of history and being blown away (like Cabot Cliffs, KB and MV) is great fun

[cardoustie]

I will admit to a heavy bias for courses being on the water or a lake or river or sea or ocean or any large body of water

[Roadking2003]

They sure like to toot their own horn. Have they published their ranking criteria?

 

I think they are the only raters who don't publish their criteria. That's not transparency.

 

[Roadking2003]

Does anybody have a link to the rankings in list form?

[LICC]

https://www.planetgolf.com/rankings/worldwide/golf-magazine-world-top-100/2019

[raynorfan1]

They don't have criteria. They have a group of voters who vote based on their "expert" opinions. It is a compilation of opinions, not a statistical sample of criteria.