My Road to Improvement - swing video 3/15/24

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, bortass said:

I can't say for certain because I did not do any round write ups after breaking 90. I was kinda burnt out after doing it for 4 years, lol. I am looking through my thread from 2012-2013 when I had a goal of breaking 80.

 

I broke 90 late May of 2012.

 

July 1st, 2012 - I start my breaking 80 thread. I wrote that my game was helter skelter and I couldn't string together solid rounds but I shot an 85 on that day and my index was dropping.

 

July 15th, 2012-  I wrote that I had shot a couple of 86s.

 

August 5, 2012 - I wrote most scores are hovering in the 87-91 range and I had a 40 on the front which was my lowest 9 ever at the time(par 35 for the front of this course).

 

October 14, 2012 - The 85 is still the best. My index got to a low of 19.7 in mid July and I tweaked my back since August. My index was gonna hit 24 with the next revision on Oct, 15th. I started the year with an index of 27.  I commented "The biggest reason my scores have ballooned though is the driver. It went MIA and I was fighting a two way miss for awhile. Push fades with the occasional hook. Gotta love it when you can miss either way. "

 

May 12, 2013 - "I have had a major regression. I expected some winter rust but not this. I have broken 100 once this year and that was a 91 about 3 weeks ago. It's hard to play when you shank irons and either heel your driver or hit the push fade off into right field and the nice happy trees(Bob Ross) that live there."

 

May 19, 2013 - "  I shot a 44/49 93 in the two ball championship yesterday. I played the front twice today and had a 48/44 for a 92. At least I am playing ok golf again. One of my opponents in the two ball commented 'you hit it pretty good for a 26'.

My index was restricted with the last revision. I had two tourney scores from last august in the 89-91 range. I was gonna shoot up to about a 29 or 30. "

 

March, 2014 - " Been about 10 months since I posted anything, so I guess I'll add a small update.

I pretty much lost interest in golf in 2013. It was a year of ups and downs. I played the equivalent of 20 rounds from 7/7 through 10/31. That's well below how much I would normally play. My index ended @ 20.6, the bad part being my good scores will start to roll off soon. I even quit keeping the stats I normally would keep while playing. My morale was completely broken. I haven't figured out how to stay positive when I play terribad.

Now some good news from the year. I won my first ever individual club tourney that ended with a sudden death playoff that lasted 1 hole. My nerves were so shot playing that hole but I pulled it out. So far this is the pinnacle of my golfing career. Not much for some but it's big for me. I also shot a 42 on the front 9 with a 7 on a par 4 and later in the year shot a 43 with a 7 and 8 on par 4s. My best 18 I was able to post was an 84. I was able to reach a par 5 in two during a tourney."

 

That was the last meaningful post I made. I pretty much quit golf at that point. I think I played 3 times in 2014. Dropped my membership in 2015 and played roughly 18 holes a year through 2018. I started golfing again in November of 2019.

 

And what's your best score since coming back? Sorry if you're having to repeat yourself. 

[bortass]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Keep working to the plan, and you'll break 85 again. Maybe it'll be next summer, or maybe it'll be 2023. But if you keep working to the plan, you'll get there.

Great post. This last sentence is what I was missing in my mindset. 

 

I may need some help with my plan because I'm not sure what to use for milestones. feel free to throw some ideas of things to help track improvement besides score. My index will track the long term score improvements.

 

Goal: Break 85 before 1/1/2024

 

Current Milestones(draft):

Reduce tee shot penalties to 2 or less per round. (currently at 3.1 over last 10 rounds)

Average 6 GIRs per round ( currently averaging 3 per round over last 10 rounds)

Hit the fairway 60% of the time( currently at 47% for the last 10 rounds)

Improve my strokes gained for 100-150 yard shots by 2 (I lose 3.3 strokes compared to a 12 from 100 to 150 yards. I lose 1.0 from 50-100 yards, 1.9 f for 150-200 and just 0.8 for 200+)

 

 

Last Week's practice goals:

1 - short putts, I was able to practice these at my second range session. I did the drill with the alignment stick and my normal hit random short putts.

 

2 - BroomForce, keep doing the Sweep It and Countertop drills with my 7i. I did Sweep It drills during my two range sessions

 

 3 - Driver, try to figure out how to hit it again. I wasted most of Tuesday's range session on this with bad results.

 

4 - Possible bonus work, posture and setup. Also thinking about Cast A from NTC. I did some stuff on set-up/posture but nothing with cast A.

 

Practice goals this week:

1 - Short putts.

2 - BroomForce, keep doing the Sweep It and Countertop drills with my 7i

3 - Work on set-up and takeaway. Start using the stance process @TheDeanAbides talks about and work on the takeaway using the first drill from NTC to try to stop bringing it inside as much.

 

 

 

[bortass]

12 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

And what's your best score since coming back? Sorry if you're having to repeat yourself. 

No worries.

 

18 holes: 89 August of 2020 at a sister course that's easier.

9 hole rounds: 41 April of 2020 at my home course.

[BigTerp1524]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

But if you keep working to the plan, you'll get there.

 

This is something I just recently realized myself. Takes some weight off my shoulders and got me focused back in on the things that I really should be focusing on versus searching for something (that doesn't exist by the way) for immediate improvements. Has got me excited to get back to the grind for the first time in a few weeks.

[JuicyC]

Have you tried focusing less on mechanics?

 

I'm on a very similar quest. 2 years ago I started trying to get better after 20 something years of playing for fun sporadically and not caring what my score was. I found Adam Young, Monte, Dan Carraher, stack and tilt, Harvey Penick, Every Shot Must Have a Purpose, Golf is Not a Game of Perfect, and tons of youtube/instagram/golfwrx/reddit stuff. I was at the range or in my garage recording my swing and reading or watching as much golf instruction as I could. I got 2 in person lessons (not very helpful), then 1 online with Monte, and then 1 online with Dan Carraher. I would be constantly tinkering with my swing based on my lesson or the newest youtube/instagram/golfwrx idea. I started at a 36 index and am at a 22 index now. I still haven't broken 90, my best is a 92 but playing a long tough course.

 

I had my lesson with Dan Carraher in January and I vowed to stop tinkering after that. Too many times I'd be standing over the ball going down my checklist of positions and feels and my swing changed from week to week. So after my lesson I stopped tinkering and just practiced with what I have. I started focusing on the ball and the club head instead of what my body was doing. It hasn't drastically dropped my scores yet but my high scores aren't as high as they used to be and low scores are seeming much more achievable. I don't know if I would be where I'm at without all my tinkering but I think I was overloading myself. 

 

The book Every Shot Must Have a Purpose has a range drill to use that I think helped as well. http://web.golfsoftware.net/14394/Documents/54 Shot Challenge.pdf 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, bortass said:

Great post. This last sentence is what I was missing in my mindset. 

 

I may need some help with my plan because I'm not sure what to use for milestones. feel free to throw some ideas of things to help track improvement besides score. My index will track the long term score improvements.

 

Goal: Break 85 before 1/1/2024

 

Current Milestones(draft):

Reduce tee shot penalties to 2 or less per round. (currently at 3.1 over last 10 rounds)

Average 6 GIRs per round ( currently averaging 3 per round over last 10 rounds)

Hit the fairway 60% of the time( currently at 47% for the last 10 rounds)

Improve my strokes gained for 100-150 yard shots by 2 (I lose 3.3 strokes compared to a 12 from 100 to 150 yards. I lose 1.0 from 50-100 yards, 1.9 f for 150-200 and just 0.8 for 200+)

 

 

Last Week's practice goals:

1 - short putts, I was able to practice these at my second range session. I did the drill with the alignment stick and my normal hit random short putts.

 

2 - BroomForce, keep doing the Sweep It and Countertop drills with my 7i. I did Sweep It drills during my two range sessions

 

 3 - Driver, try to figure out how to hit it again. I wasted most of Tuesday's range session on this with bad results.

 

4 - Possible bonus work, posture and setup. Also thinking about Cast A from NTC. I did some stuff on set-up/posture but nothing with cast A.

 

Practice goals this week:

1 - Short putts.

2 - BroomForce, keep doing the Sweep It and Countertop drills with my 7i

3 - Work on set-up and takeaway. Start using the stance process @TheDeanAbides talks about and work on the takeaway using the first drill from NTC to try to stop bringing it inside as much.

 

 

 

 

I'm a bigger fan of setting the practice goals than the milestones. Milestones are measurement tools, not something that will actually MAKE you better. I'm a fan of measuring inputs rather than outputs, because outputs are messy.

 

So here would be mine:

 

1. Try to play ~54 holes of golf per 4 weeks. One 18-hole round on each of the weekends that I don't have the kids, and at least two 9-hole rounds at the exec course (with my son if schedule permits, or getting away for a weekday morning a few times if not). 
2. Average 1 range session per week. For now the goal of the range session is to ingrain the movement based on my last lesson with Monte, which was in March, and general practice across all clubs including partial wedge shots.
3. Visit the short game practice area / practice green at my "club" twice per month for work on chipping/pitching and putting on a real green.  
4. Commit to using my putting mat several times per week for 10-20 minutes at a time.
5. This is basically 2a: When I feel like I've gotten the movement from Monte fully ingrained, go back for another lesson so I'll know what to work on beyond that going forward.

I think for people of our skill level, setting concrete milestones is harder because we need to get better everywhere. And the way to get better everywhere IMHO is "ballstriking", meaning making consistent contact and hitting the ball in the direction you intend. That's practice and occasional lessons to improve what you're practicing. 

 

The milestones are good, but they're outputs. If you work on the inputs, I'm convinced the outputs will improve. 

 

Where tracking milestones like those is valuable:

• If you're putting in the work but you're not seeing any long-term positive trend in the milestones, it suggests that you're putting in the work incorrectly. This could be the typical "GolfWRX/YouTube rabbit hole" I talked about I think in Terp's thread where you're getting distracted and working on 12 things at once, which basically means not working on anything. It could also mean that your practice is misguided and you're ingraining a flaw instead of fixing a flaw, in which case you need a pro's help. 
• If you feel like you're improving your ballstriking/swing but it's not improving the milestones. This could be a course management sort of thing, i.e. if you're not improving your penalty strokes over time are you picking bad targets? Are you getting too aggressive on shots that you can't execute? Are you having mental tenseness on the course that doesn't show up on the range and how do you address that? Etc.
• If you have a collection of milestones and some are improving while others aren't, then it can help you focus your practice. I.e. right now you say you want to improve SG from 100-150. My personal view is if you work on your swing and ballstriking, it should improve across the board. But if you're working on full swings and you see that 100-150 and 150-200 are improving but you're not improving at all, or actually getting worse SG numbers in the 50-100 and short game areas, it suggests maybe you're not balancing your time as wisely as you could be. 

Milestones are also good because as you improve, that will give you a tangible trend to make you feel good about the improvement that has occurred... But IMHO it's a long-term strategy, and focusing on the milestones in a shorter term will be a distraction to the end goal.

 

I've always been a believer in focusing on the process first, and that the results will come. 

[bortass]

44 minutes ago, JuicyC said:

Have you tried focusing less on mechanics?

 

I'm on a very similar quest. 2 years ago I started trying to get better after 20 something years of playing for fun sporadically and not caring what my score was. I found Adam Young, Monte, Dan Carraher, stack and tilt, Harvey Penick, Every Shot Must Have a Purpose, Golf is Not a Game of Perfect, and tons of youtube/instagram/golfwrx/reddit stuff. I was at the range or in my garage recording my swing and reading or watching as much golf instruction as I could. I got 2 in person lessons (not very helpful), then 1 online with Monte, and then 1 online with Dan Carraher. I would be constantly tinkering with my swing based on my lesson or the newest youtube/instagram/golfwrx idea. I started at a 36 index and am at a 22 index now. I still haven't broken 90, my best is a 92 but playing a long tough course.

 

I had my lesson with Dan Carraher in January and I vowed to stop tinkering after that. Too many times I'd be standing over the ball going down my checklist of positions and feels and my swing changed from week to week. So after my lesson I stopped tinkering and just practiced with what I have. I started focusing on the ball and the club head instead of what my body was doing. It hasn't drastically dropped my scores yet but my high scores aren't as high as they used to be and low scores are seeming much more achievable. I don't know if I would be where I'm at without all my tinkering but I think I was overloading myself. 

 

The book Every Shot Must Have a Purpose has a range drill to use that I think helped as well. http://web.golfsoftware.net/14394/Documents/54 Shot Challenge.pdf 

I'm not super mechanics focused, at least I don't think so. My take has been those guys are the ones that look at stuff like 'your wrist needs to be 37.5* when you are 2/3 of the way back'.

 

I do get what you mean about overloading though. I just did that trying to 'fix' my driver last week. It's also why I started trying to have practice goals to help me  focus on what I want to work on.

 

51 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'm a bigger fan of setting the practice goals than the milestones. Milestones are measurement tools, not something that will actually MAKE you better. I'm a fan of measuring inputs rather than outputs, because outputs are messy.

 

So here would be mine:

 

1. Try to play ~54 holes of golf per 4 weeks. One 18-hole round on each of the weekends that I don't have the kids, and at least two 9-hole rounds at the exec course (with my son if schedule permits, or getting away for a weekday morning a few times if not). 
2. Average 1 range session per week. For now the goal of the range session is to ingrain the movement based on my last lesson with Monte, which was in March, and general practice across all clubs including partial wedge shots.
3. Visit the short game practice area / practice green at my "club" twice per month for work on chipping/pitching and putting on a real green.  
4. Commit to using my putting mat several times per week for 10-20 minutes at a time.
5. This is basically 2a: When I feel like I've gotten the movement from Monte fully ingrained, go back for another lesson so I'll know what to work on beyond that going forward.

I think for people of our skill level, setting concrete milestones is harder because we need to get better everywhere. And the way to get better everywhere IMHO is "ballstriking", meaning making consistent contact and hitting the ball in the direction you intend. That's practice and occasional lessons to improve what you're practicing. 

 

The milestones are good, but they're outputs. If you work on the inputs, I'm convinced the outputs will improve. 

 

Where tracking milestones like those is valuable:

• If you're putting in the work but you're not seeing any long-term positive trend in the milestones, it suggests that you're putting in the work incorrectly. This could be the typical "GolfWRX/YouTube rabbit hole" I talked about I think in Terp's thread where you're getting distracted and working on 12 things at once, which basically means not working on anything. It could also mean that your practice is misguided and you're ingraining a flaw instead of fixing a flaw, in which case you need a pro's help. 
• If you feel like you're improving your ballstriking/swing but it's not improving the milestones. This could be a course management sort of thing, i.e. if you're not improving your penalty strokes over time are you picking bad targets? Are you getting too aggressive on shots that you can't execute? Are you having mental tenseness on the course that doesn't show up on the range and how do you address that? Etc.
• If you have a collection of milestones and some are improving while others aren't, then it can help you focus your practice. I.e. right now you say you want to improve SG from 100-150. My personal view is if you work on your swing and ballstriking, it should improve across the board. But if you're working on full swings and you see that 100-150 and 150-200 are improving but you're not improving at all, or actually getting worse SG numbers in the 50-100 and short game areas, it suggests maybe you're not balancing your time as wisely as you could be. 

Milestones are also good because as you improve, that will give you a tangible trend to make you feel good about the improvement that has occurred... But IMHO it's a long-term strategy, and focusing on the milestones in a shorter term will be a distraction to the end goal.

 

I've always been a believer in focusing on the process first, and that the results will come. 

Makes sense. This isn't an area I'm strong in.

 

I chose those milestones for a couple different reasons. All are full swing related, which is the main area my practice is focused on. They are also things that help highlight a few known issues.

 

Fairways and Penalties off the tee is obviously about getting better with my driver. Arccos measures driving based on distance, accuracy, and penalties. I have more control over the last two than I do distance. I am hitting it better off the tee distance wise by a decent amount but it's not something I can easily increase IMO. Improving these numbers means I'm getting off the tee better.

 

The biggest weakness in my game is my approach shot which is everything except par 4/5 tee shots and anything inside 50 yards. It's better than it has been but I have not made much in the way of improvements in it, compared to driver where I have made some decent strides. Within my approach game I'm weakest from 100-150 yards which is a full swing with pretty much all of my irons. I'm starting to shift to more partial iron shots instead of full shots during my rounds to try to help this area.

 

The GIR milestone ties into both driver and irons/woods. A good drive gives me a better chance at GIR but I still need that approach shot to hit the green.

 

So I will try to use these to measure my improvement or lack thereof over time. I expect that it will take months to make significant progress on them.

 

The weekly practice goals are an attempt to provide focus on what I am working on and some accountability. Hopefully it'll help keep me from going off the rails.

[JuicyC]

1 hour ago, bortass said:

I'm not super mechanics focused, at least I don't think so. My take has been those guys are the ones that look at stuff like 'your wrist needs to be 37.5* when you are 2/3 of the way back'.

 

Maybe mechanics is the wrong word. I mean no new concepts and using the arsenal of lessons and swing mechanics you've already ingested but also taking a break from drilling that. I have a mat and net in my garage. My limited practice consists of working on hitting the ball with good contact. If I don't feel it, I take half swings and even quarter swings to get good contact and work up to a fuller swing. I want to be able to walk up to the ball and trust that I'll make good contact. 

Like I'm dying to watch Monte's BroomForce but I don't want to mess with what I have. I took a break from looking at my swing for a while and I think it helped. When I'm standing over the ball I'm focusing on hitting the ball in a specific locating with the club head and that's it. I think it's like Adam Young's hammer the nail. 

 

Everyone's different and maybe I just found what works for me until I plateau or have a terrible round lol

 

[TheDeanAbides]

12 hours ago, bortass said:

No worries.

 

18 holes: 89 August of 2020 at a sister course that's easier.

9 hole rounds: 41 April of 2020 at my home course.

What about best 18 hole score on the course you regularly play? 

[bortass]

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

What about best 18 hole score on the course you regularly play? 

I've shot 92 three times, all this year. 

[BigTerp1524]

16 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I'm a bigger fan of setting the practice goals than the milestones. Milestones are measurement tools, not something that will actually MAKE you better. I'm a fan of measuring inputs rather than outputs, because outputs are messy.

 

So here would be mine:

 

1. Try to play ~54 holes of golf per 4 weeks. One 18-hole round on each of the weekends that I don't have the kids, and at least two 9-hole rounds at the exec course (with my son if schedule permits, or getting away for a weekday morning a few times if not). 
2. Average 1 range session per week. For now the goal of the range session is to ingrain the movement based on my last lesson with Monte, which was in March, and general practice across all clubs including partial wedge shots.
3. Visit the short game practice area / practice green at my "club" twice per month for work on chipping/pitching and putting on a real green.  
4. Commit to using my putting mat several times per week for 10-20 minutes at a time.
5. This is basically 2a: When I feel like I've gotten the movement from Monte fully ingrained, go back for another lesson so I'll know what to work on beyond that going forward.

I think for people of our skill level, setting concrete milestones is harder because we need to get better everywhere. And the way to get better everywhere IMHO is "ballstriking", meaning making consistent contact and hitting the ball in the direction you intend. That's practice and occasional lessons to improve what you're practicing. 

 

The milestones are good, but they're outputs. If you work on the inputs, I'm convinced the outputs will improve. 

 

Where tracking milestones like those is valuable:

• If you're putting in the work but you're not seeing any long-term positive trend in the milestones, it suggests that you're putting in the work incorrectly. This could be the typical "GolfWRX/YouTube rabbit hole" I talked about I think in Terp's thread where you're getting distracted and working on 12 things at once, which basically means not working on anything. It could also mean that your practice is misguided and you're ingraining a flaw instead of fixing a flaw, in which case you need a pro's help. 
• If you feel like you're improving your ballstriking/swing but it's not improving the milestones. This could be a course management sort of thing, i.e. if you're not improving your penalty strokes over time are you picking bad targets? Are you getting too aggressive on shots that you can't execute? Are you having mental tenseness on the course that doesn't show up on the range and how do you address that? Etc.
• If you have a collection of milestones and some are improving while others aren't, then it can help you focus your practice. I.e. right now you say you want to improve SG from 100-150. My personal view is if you work on your swing and ballstriking, it should improve across the board. But if you're working on full swings and you see that 100-150 and 150-200 are improving but you're not improving at all, or actually getting worse SG numbers in the 50-100 and short game areas, it suggests maybe you're not balancing your time as wisely as you could be. 

Milestones are also good because as you improve, that will give you a tangible trend to make you feel good about the improvement that has occurred... But IMHO it's a long-term strategy, and focusing on the milestones in a shorter term will be a distraction to the end goal.

 

I've always been a believer in focusing on the process first, and that the results will come. 

 

This is a well thought out post and a lot of it correlates with where I'm at right now. I went down a wrong path and completely lost focus on the things I needed to work on. Didn't even realize how lost I was until @TheDeanAbides snapped be back to reality. All the information was right there in front me. Information from my lessons with Monte on what I specifically needed to work on. Information from his NTC videos that directly related to the above. I just got rather lost and started scrambling to find the fix(es). Very bad place to be. I've since gone back to what Monte addressed with me during our lessons and re-watched most of the NTC videos. I'm now working on 3 or 4 specific things with specific drills and a very clear focus on exactly what I'm doing. Very refreshing feeling. I think that describes pretty well just what @betarhoalphadelta is saying in his post.  

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, bortass said:

I've shot 92 three times, all this year. 

Okay, that's what I was trying to get at. I think that you could take a lot of internal pressure off yourself if you make your goal to be to break 90 regularly instead of chasing a score that you managed once. 

[bortass]

14 hours ago, JuicyC said:

 

Maybe mechanics is the wrong word. I mean no new concepts and using the arsenal of lessons and swing mechanics you've already ingested but also taking a break from drilling that. I have a mat and net in my garage. My limited practice consists of working on hitting the ball with good contact. If I don't feel it, I take half swings and even quarter swings to get good contact and work up to a fuller swing. I want to be able to walk up to the ball and trust that I'll make good contact. 

Like I'm dying to watch Monte's BroomForce but I don't want to mess with what I have. I took a break from looking at my swing for a while and I think it helped. When I'm standing over the ball I'm focusing on hitting the ball in a specific locating with the club head and that's it. I think it's like Adam Young's hammer the nail. 

 

Everyone's different and maybe I just found what works for me until I plateau or have a terrible round lol

 

Ahhh gotcha. What you describe seems like Adam Young or MDLT. There is merit in it and something I should consider adding in.

 

Right now I think I'm done adding anything new swing wise to the mix. I have been working on NTC for a year now, mostly Cast B. I thought I was good with the takeaway part since I don't overswing cuz I'm too wide and not flexible enough but I was wrong, so back to square one.  BroomForce is kind of a missing link for transition that has always been missing for me. I never got it until now, or at least I now have a feel for it.

[BigTerp1524]

45 minutes ago, bortass said:

Ahhh gotcha. What you describe seems like Adam Young or MDLT. There is merit in it and something I should consider adding in.

 

Right now I think I'm done adding anything new swing wise to the mix. I have been working on NTC for a year now, mostly Cast B. I thought I was good with the takeaway part since I don't overswing cuz I'm too wide and not flexible enough but I was wrong, so back to square one.  BroomForce is kind of a missing link for transition that has always been missing for me. I never got it until now, or at least I now have a feel for it.

 

I briefly did some BroomForce work when the video first came out. It lit a few bulbs for me in terms of the transition. Releasing the vertical hinge was a bit of a light bulb moment for me. It's the same thing as cast A with the NTC, but just worded and described differently. For whatever reason that made a little more sense to me and I now understand how cast A works much better. The second thing was the intent of starting the arms first from the top. Monte stresses that having this intent will not actually start the arms first but it helps fix those that fire the hips out early or spin the shoulders out early. For me, it really helps with keeping my shoulders closed longer.

[bortass]

31 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Okay, that's what I was trying to get at. I think that you could take a lot of internal pressure off yourself if you make your goal to be to break 90 regularly instead of chasing a score that you managed once. 

Early on I was using stuff like that as my milestones. The first was to break 95 and then it was to break 89, regardless of course. I got both of those done in the first 7 months. I don't know what I said it would be after that though. 

 

You are right about the internal pressure. It's been something I've been dealing with and it's not new. I had the same types of issues when I was trying to break 100 and 90 for the first time. I think part of it, this time around, is a lack of realism on my part. Hindsight is 20/20 and I don't know what I was thinking to feel like I'd have made more progress by now. 

 

When I set the goal of breaking 85, I thought it was a score I'd never broken before but I had been real close since I shot the 85. What I did think, and still do, is that while that was some of the best golf of my life, it was not my peak potential. I do not believe it was a once in  a lifetime and the stars are all in alignment kind of thing. Sure, I'm 8 years older now and my golf ceiling is getting lower because of age. It's a given for all of us. So the goal is a stretch but a possibility unlike say becoming a scratch player. 

 

So back to a goal of breaking 90 regularly, how does that fit into my long term goal? I know that may seem like a dumb question because it's really a stepping stone/milestone but it's score based and I'm trying to avoid score based milestones so I don't freak out when I shoot a round near 100, lol. I wish this was as easy as losing weight. My goal there is simple. I want to lose about 50-55 lbs and then re-evaluate. The reality is I could afford to lose 80-100 which would get me in a weight range that I haven't been in, except for a brief period, since my early 20s. I don't have any date targets or mini goals. Just follow the process and see results. It'll get harder once I drop that initial 55, hence taking a look at things once I get to that point.

[bortass]

24 minutes ago, BigTerp1524 said:

 

I briefly did some BroomForce work when the video first came out. It lit a few bulbs for me in terms of the transition. Releasing the vertical hinge was a bit of a light bulb moment for me. It's the same thing as cast A with the NTC, but just worded and described differently. For whatever reason that made a little more sense to me and I now understand how cast A works much better. The second thing was the intent of starting the arms first from the top. Monte stresses that having this intent will not actually start the arms first but it helps fix those that fire the hips out early or spin the shoulders out early. For me, it really helps with keeping my shoulders closed longer.

For me the big lightbulb is around the squat move. Doing the Sweep It drill, I really feel myself start by flexing my knees and then pushing up off the ground. When I feel that in my full swing with the 7i it's a holy crap moment. I don't know why but I tend to make more center of face contact and the ball flight is superb.

 

I suck with Cast A, part of it is probably my shallow position, but it's not something that I have ever had an a-ha(cue Take Me On) moment with. I'm hoping to get there someday. It's interesting how we are getting something completely different from BroomForce. I think it shows some of the beauty in how Monte explains and teaches with the latest videos. They are are broken down in a simple way yet still can help people with differing aspects of the same part of the swing.

[TheDeanAbides]

33 minutes ago, bortass said:

Early on I was using stuff like that as my milestones. The first was to break 95 and then it was to break 89, regardless of course. I got both of those done in the first 7 months. I don't know what I said it would be after that though. 

 

You are right about the internal pressure. It's been something I've been dealing with and it's not new. I had the same types of issues when I was trying to break 100 and 90 for the first time. I think part of it, this time around, is a lack of realism on my part. Hindsight is 20/20 and I don't know what I was thinking to feel like I'd have made more progress by now. 

 

When I set the goal of breaking 85, I thought it was a score I'd never broken before but I had been real close since I shot the 85. What I did think, and still do, is that while that was some of the best golf of my life, it was not my peak potential. I do not believe it was a once in  a lifetime and the stars are all in alignment kind of thing. Sure, I'm 8 years older now and my golf ceiling is getting lower because of age. It's a given for all of us. So the goal is a stretch but a possibility unlike say becoming a scratch player. 

 

So back to a goal of breaking 90 regularly, how does that fit into my long term goal? I know that may seem like a dumb question because it's really a stepping stone/milestone but it's score based and I'm trying to avoid score based milestones so I don't freak out when I shoot a round near 100, lol. I wish this was as easy as losing weight. My goal there is simple. I want to lose about 50-55 lbs and then re-evaluate. The reality is I could afford to lose 80-100 which would get me in a weight range that I haven't been in, except for a brief period, since my early 20s. I don't have any date targets or mini goals. Just follow the process and see results. It'll get harder once I drop that initial 55, hence taking a look at things once I get to that point.

Breaking 85 is definitely achievable on a regular basis whatever your age. My buddy is making great progress (down to 8 on a tough 130 slope course after three years), but he's been schooled every time he's played this older member who in his 70s, hits it no further than 180 yards and shoots in the 70s all the time. The course is 6850 yards. 

 

I see the potential in your swing which is why I suggested going back and getting the first move correct. It'll all start to fall into place and you'll hit fewer destructive shots. 

[JuicyC]

46 minutes ago, bortass said:

Ahhh gotcha. What you describe seems like Adam Young or MDLT. There is merit in it and something I should consider adding in.

 

Right now I think I'm done adding anything new swing wise to the mix. I have been working on NTC for a year now, mostly Cast B. I thought I was good with the takeaway part since I don't overswing cuz I'm too wide and not flexible enough but I was wrong, so back to square one.  BroomForce is kind of a missing link for transition that has always been missing for me. I never got it until now, or at least I now have a feel for it.

 

I think it is a lot like Adam Young instruction, his Strike Plan was the first course I bought. Funnily enough, the in-person lessons I got were from a MDLT disciple. I was not a fan, but that may be because of the instructor instead of the philosophy. 

 

I just felt like I wasn't letting anything marinate and I didn't have a consistent swing. I would have stress leading up to a round, afraid my swing would fall off the rails. If I was hitting it poorly in practice, I would obsessively drill things until something felt right. I had to take a break and I think it has made my rounds more enjoyable even if my score isn't as low as I wanted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BigTerp1524]

55 minutes ago, bortass said:

For me the big lightbulb is around the squat move. Doing the Sweep It drill, I really feel myself start by flexing my knees and then pushing up off the ground. When I feel that in my full swing with the 7i it's a holy crap moment. I don't know why but I tend to make more center of face contact and the ball flight is superb.

 

I suck with Cast A, part of it is probably my shallow position, but it's not something that I have ever had an a-ha(cue Take Me On) moment with. I'm hoping to get there someday. It's interesting how we are getting something completely different from BroomForce. I think it shows some of the beauty in how Monte explains and teaches with the latest videos. They are are broken down in a simple way yet still can help people with differing aspects of the same part of the swing.

 

I haven't gotten far into the BroomForce series at all, just the first 2 or 3 videos. But they were just what I needed at just the right time. I'm actually shelving the series for now in favor of focusing on solidifying my NTC work. I have a MUCH better understanding of the NTC and what I, personally, need to do to get it working well for me. Not sure on your specific struggles with cast A, but mine was my wrist positioning and action. Once I understood how the wrists work with cast A, and the NTC in general, things starting coming together a bit. The BroomForce way of "releasing the vertical and horizontal hinges in the wrists" is what finally got me to understand it.

 

I agree about Monte. He has a simple, yet extremely effective way of relaying information about the golf swing.

[bortass]

4 minutes ago, BigTerp1524 said:

 

I haven't gotten far into the BroomForce series at all, just the first 2 or 3 videos. But they were just what I needed at just the right time. I'm actually shelving the series for now in favor of focusing on solidifying my NTC work. I have a MUCH better understanding of the NTC and what I, personally, need to do to get it working well for me. Not sure on your specific struggles with cast A, but mine was my wrist positioning and action. Once I understood how the wrists work with cast A, and the NTC in general, things starting coming together a bit. The BroomForce way of "releasing the vertical and horizontal hinges in the wrists" is what finally got me to understand it.

 

I agree about Monte. He has a simple, yet extremely effective way of relaying information about the golf swing.

My 'struggles' with Cast A are very simple. I don't do it, it's a foreign move, and I haven't really worked on it. I'm sure being OTT for pretty much my entire golfing career plays a big role in this. I also don't have a great idea about the wrists in general. For example, I have always read that the release happens naturally. Well that's not true for me. I used to have, and may still have, a reverse roll. Basically I hold the face open through impact because I was trying to not make the clubhead do anything because it should happen 'on it's own'.

 

Cast B is much easier for me because the drill is basically what I consider a partial wedge and it's what I'd do when practicing my release years ago. So it's a shot I actually use on the course and I practice it a fair bit on the range. I love working on that shot and it's part of every range session and pre-round warm-up.

 

29 minutes ago, JuicyC said:

 

I think it is a lot like Adam Young instruction, his Strike Plan was the first course I bought. Funnily enough, the in-person lessons I got were from a MDLT disciple. I was not a fan, but that may be because of the instructor instead of the philosophy. 

 

I just felt like I wasn't letting anything marinate and I didn't have a consistent swing. I would have stress leading up to a round, afraid my swing would fall off the rails. If I was hitting it poorly in practice, I would obsessively drill things until something felt right. I had to take a break and I think it has made my rounds more enjoyable even if my score isn't as low as I wanted.

 

MDLT seems very straight forward. It's swing the club at your target. Setup is pretty neutral from what I recall as well.

 

I have never had the fear of my swing falling off the rails on the course. It's happened a number of times of course and it's frustrating when it does. I also learned, the hard way, that taking a lesson to the course didn't work well. It was better to just swing the club however it was gonna swing that day and accept it. Not always easy to do but it seemed like the best course of action for me. Probably because it caused too much thinking over the ball.

 

And at the end of the day, if the round isn't enjoyable why are we out there? Some of the most fun golf I have played was right after I broke 100. I was just out on the course swinging the club. Find ball hit ball, write down a number, rinse and repeat. I was shooting scores in the mid to low 90s without a care in the world. I felt like I was golfing. So I know what you mean.

1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Breaking 85 is definitely achievable on a regular basis whatever your age. My buddy is making great progress (down to 8 on a tough 130 slope course after three years), but he's been schooled every time he's played this older member who in his 70s, hits it no further than 180 yards and shoots in the 70s all the time. The course is 6850 yards. 

 

I see the potential in your swing which is why I suggested going back and getting the first move correct. It'll all start to fall into place and you'll hit fewer destructive shots. 

Thanks for the compliment. Makes perfect sense to me. If I can't get step 1 right then I need to adjust for it elsewhere and that will have a higher cost. It's why I want to also do what you suggested regarding the set-up and posture. That's the foundation of the swing and any issues there will be magnified later.

 

My course is 126 slope and 5963 yards from the whites. The tips are slope 130 and 6478 yards. The course I shot the 84 on was slope 115 or 116 and 6333 yards.

 

One thing I did when trying to break 100 or 90, not sure which was play forward. I broke my target on the 'senior' tees before moving back to the whites. I was playing the 'senior' tees where I am now earlier last year but moved back because of the Saturday game. At the time the group of guys I started playing with based everything off of half your index. I played forward with the older guys because I couldn't hit my driver at the time and my 6i was my 120 yard club, lol. There's a 2 stroke advantage to playing forward with how they did it. Eventually there were some comments about me playing the whites and I moved back to them since my driver was starting to work even if the distance wasn't stellar. We recently changed it to use course handicap instead, so the tees you play are a wash now but I bet I'd catch some flak if I moved up. Not worth the yapping/politics of it to me.

 

I haven't been able to get in many 9 hole rounds during the week in a long time because of life in general. If I am able to get out and play 9 solo again, I may start mixing up the tee boxes. The forward tees will take driver out of play on at least 1 hole. I'd also like to try the blues which are slope 128 and 6233 yards. Even the tips since the yardage isn't too much for me to handle. I think it's fun to experience the course from different tees assuming you are not causing problems by playing ones you shouldn't be on. I don't want to be 'that guy'. 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

2 hours ago, bortass said:

So back to a goal of breaking 90 regularly, how does that fit into my long term goal? I know that may seem like a dumb question because it's really a stepping stone/milestone but it's score based and I'm trying to avoid score based milestones so I don't freak out when I shoot a round near 100, lol. I wish this was as easy as losing weight. My goal there is simple. I want to lose about 50-55 lbs and then re-evaluate. The reality is I could afford to lose 80-100 which would get me in a weight range that I haven't been in, except for a brief period, since my early 20s. I don't have any date targets or mini goals. Just follow the process and see results. It'll get harder once I drop that initial 55, hence taking a look at things once I get to that point.

 

If you can do this for weight loss, why can't you do this for golf? This is the mindset reset that you need. 

 

Weight loss is easy. It's only two things. Monitor/limit what you eat, and exercise. The issue for most people is commitment to doing it, not coming up with a plan. 

 

Golf is even easier, because we like it, unlike weight loss. So commitment is less of an issue. So the answer is monitor what you eat, meaning make sure that you have good instruction so you know what you need to focus on, and exercise, meaning make sure you practice what you're working on. 

 

Sure, you can make it more complex. If you exercise and all you ever work on is arms (banging driver), you are only doing a small bit of what "exercise" should be. Don't skip leg day (putting), brah! Just as you need to do arms, cardio, core, and legs, you need to practice long game, pitching, short game, and putting. But it's not rocket science.

 

Your milestones in golf would be like trying to define weight loss and having one metric for your weight (the obvious one), another for your waist circumference, another for your bench press max, and a fourth for how many situps you can do in a row. Sure, you can measure all those things--but if you follow the process (eat right and exercise), they're all gonna improve anyway. 

 

It's simple. Follow the process and the results will come. Mentally you're there with losing weight--what mental hurdle do you need to overcome to get there with golf?

 

1 hour ago, JuicyC said:

 

I just felt like I wasn't letting anything marinate and I didn't have a consistent swing. I would have stress leading up to a round, afraid my swing would fall off the rails. If I was hitting it poorly in practice, I would obsessively drill things until something felt right. I had to take a break and I think it has made my rounds more enjoyable even if my score isn't as low as I wanted.

 

 

This IMHO is the problem with the YouTube/GolfWRX rabbit hole of swing moves. If you're working on 7 things in your swing, you're actually working on nothing. That leads to frustration, as you found.

 

What might be the case for you is that you have a functional swing, and your effort to simply "make good contact" in your practice regimen is to drill it to keep your swing repeatable. Don't mess with it, just make it repeatable so you have trust in making good contact. 

 

Tinkering gets in the way of doing that successfully. 

 

I've been working on my mechanics, in the sense that I had a stall/flip/EE problem that all stemmed from not having proper hip movement, and I felt like that would inhibit my repeatability no matter how much I drilled it at the range, so I took a lesson and I've been working on that one change for 7 months. It's finally paying off, but a lot of that is because I didn't let myself get distracted with 10 other swing changes in that time frame.

[BigTerp1524]

31 minutes ago, bortass said:

I also don't have a great idea about the wrists in general.

 

Neither did I. It was something I actually glossed over when I first started working with the NTC. I was focused on the gross moves of the NTC and just simply didn't pay attention to the wrists. After going back and watching the NTC series again I was amazed how much I missed/ignored/forgot, etc. with the wrists. Monte goes into great detail with the wrists and emphasizes their importance. A big piece that I, for one, was missing.

 

Now, I'm not saying go back and start working on your wrists. @betarhoalphadelta made some really good points above. You've gotta figure out what's best for you and your swing to work on at this point and focus solely on that. It's a shame that it took me 9 months to really, I mean REALLY, understand that point. It's super easy to start tinkering with this idea or that idea or try this drill instead of that drill and you just start spinning your wheels. 

 

[bortass]

11 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

If you can do this for weight loss, why can't you do this for golf? This is the mindset reset that you need. 

I'm not sure. I weigh almost daily and it doesn't affect me negatively like it can for some people. I know the patterns of weight fluctuation that my body goes through, so if the number goes up it's no big deal. I know there'll be a whoosh in a day or two. Typing this makes me think of something. Weight loss is all about the scale for me. I see the progress in the key measure every week.  I don't need anything to know if I'm doing okay losing weight.

 

I guess I'm just not there with golf. My index will track the trend of scores over time and it's gone down this year but it's starting to bounce around. Shooting multiple rounds near 100 lately makes it easy for me to question if what I'm doing is having an effect or not. Part of what Adam Young wrote about is related to finding things that show you are improving even if the score says otherwise to prevent the issue that some have with daily weighing. A bad number can derail the process.

 

This is a very interesting conversation and I'm glad since it's helping expand my horizons and think about some different things. Good stuff!

[betarhoalphadelta]

5 minutes ago, bortass said:

I'm not sure. I weigh almost daily and it doesn't affect me negatively like it can for some people. I know the patterns of weight fluctuation that my body goes through, so if the number goes up it's no big deal. I know there'll be a whoosh in a day or two. Typing this makes me think of something. Weight loss is all about the scale for me. I see the progress in the key measure every week.  I don't need anything to know if I'm doing okay losing weight.

 

I guess I'm just not there with golf. My index will track the trend of scores over time and it's gone down this year but it's starting to bounce around. Shooting multiple rounds near 100 lately makes it easy for me to question if what I'm doing is having an effect or not. Part of what Adam Young wrote about is related to finding things that show you are improving even if the score says otherwise to prevent the issue that some have with daily weighing. A bad number can derail the process.

 

This is a very interesting conversation and I'm glad since it's helping expand my horizons and think about some different things. Good stuff!

 

That's a good point and one I didn't consider... Having other milestones can keep you engaged if you see improvement in those milestones even if it's not showing up in the final score. 

 

Of course, the counterpoint is that often some of those other milestones are closely correlated with the number on the scorecard too. Penalties off the tee, missing a lot fairways, and missing a lot of GIR, etc are a great way to score 100 😉 

 

Either way, the important thing is to figure out what works for you, and commit to it. 

[BigTerp1524]

15 minutes ago, bortass said:

Shooting multiple rounds near 100 lately makes it easy for me to question if what I'm doing is having an effect or not.

 

I feel your pain!! After I reached my goal of breaking 100 earlier this year I've shot rounds of 108, 115 and 109. It very quickly got in my head and led me to searching for other answers instead of continuing the course of working hard on what I needed to. Results got worse, frustration set it, etc. Became a viscous cycle. When I finally stepped back and assessed what I was trying to do it all came back to the core things I'd been working on all along with the NTC and my lessons with Monte. It was actually a blessing in disguise. It made me realize I was actually not working on those specific things as well as I thought. Sure, I was doing a few drills working on my weight shift, pivot, etc., but I wasn't what I would call fully committed to the couple of specific changes I needed to make. It was more of a work on this for a bit, work on that for a bit and then just bang balls until I was tired. Now I feel laser focused on those changes and have a solid practice plan to implement them. I can tell a marked difference already how much a solid practice routine working on the right things in the right way can make.    

[JuicyC]

52 minutes ago, bortass said:

MDLT seems very straight forward. It's swing the club at your target. Setup is pretty neutral from what I recall as well.

It was too straightforward for what I wanted at the time. This was my first lesson and I wanted someone to correct my mechanics with drills and they told me all I need to do is keep the club in line with the target. They did teach me how to line up and setup to the target which I still use, so not a total bust. 

 

1 hour ago, bortass said:

I have never had the fear of my swing falling off the rails on the course. It's happened a number of times of course and it's frustrating when it does. I also learned, the hard way, that taking a lesson to the course didn't work well. It was better to just swing the club however it was gonna swing that day and accept it. Not always easy to do but it seemed like the best course of action for me. Probably because it caused too much thinking over the ball.

 

And at the end of the day, if the round isn't enjoyable why are we out there? Some of the most fun golf I have played was right after I broke 100. I was just out on the course swinging the club. Find ball hit ball, write down a number, rinse and repeat. I was shooting scores in the mid to low 90s without a care in the world. I felt like I was golfing. So I know what you mean.

Haha early on, it was an enjoyable round followed by 3 or 4 bad rounds. But I think the learning and practice are part of the enjoyment too. Like seeing the results of my practice even if I shot a 110. I can only get a round in every 2 weeks, so I put a lot pressure on myself to shoot well. I'm trying to lessen the pressure and not focus so much on my total score, it's very difficult. But I feel like I'm golfing a lot more than I used to.

 

 

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

This IMHO is the problem with the YouTube/GolfWRX rabbit hole of swing moves. If you're working on 7 things in your swing, you're actually working on nothing. That leads to frustration, as you found.

 

What might be the case for you is that you have a functional swing, and your effort to simply "make good contact" in your practice regimen is to drill it to keep your swing repeatable. Don't mess with it, just make it repeatable so you have trust in making good contact. 

 

Tinkering gets in the way of doing that successfully. 

 

I've been working on my mechanics, in the sense that I had a stall/flip/EE problem that all stemmed from not having proper hip movement, and I felt like that would inhibit my repeatability no matter how much I drilled it at the range, so I took a lesson and I've been working on that one change for 7 months. It's finally paying off, but a lot of that is because I didn't let myself get distracted with 10 other swing changes in that time frame.

That has been in the back of my mind too, maybe I'm not drilling new things with my swing because I'm happy with how it feels and looks, functional. Or maybe I'm happy with my swing because my scores aren't fluctuating as much and trending lower. 

 

 

[bortass]

14 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

That's a good point and one I didn't consider... Having other milestones can keep you engaged if you see improvement in those milestones even if it's not showing up in the final score. 

 

Of course, the counterpoint is that often some of those other milestones are closely correlated with the number on the scorecard too. Penalties off the tee, missing a lot fairways, and missing a lot of GIR, etc are a great way to score 100 😉 

 

Either way, the important thing is to figure out what works for you, and commit to it. 

This is very true. It's what I did Saturday. My driving came around and my short game and putting decided to suck compared to normal. At least I know I got off the tee well which is great since it's been killing me the last couple months or so it feels. So my round stayed positive. The mental game in golf really seems to be mostly around how to deal with adversity and not go in the tank when things don't go as planned. Maybe it's all just mental gymnastics in the end, lol.

[bortass]

The rain stopped, so I was able to get a small range session in. I was limited in the number of balls I had about 20-30 because I had to scavenge them off the practice green. So I only really worked on one thing: practice goal #3 - Work on set-up and takeaway

 

I was trying to use the process that @TheDeanAbides has written of. I don't know if I'm doing it correct but I'll stick with it on the range. I just focused on the first part of NTC. So address the ball, vertically hinge the wrists, then horizontally hinge the wrists, then push the hands back to 7 o'clock, pause, and try to hit the ball. I did what Monte talked about in BF and his IG Live session last week about doing a few drills and then just hitting a few balls, rinse and repeat. So I would do the drill with 3 balls and then hit about 5. I think it was a very positive session. There were times with the drill where the ball flight was okay, followed by a great one. The part about hitting 5 balls i did something new, for me, I took my 7i and only swung back to left arm parallel and the club being vertical. I consider that a 3/4 swing but my naming may be off. From there I made an easy swing through the ball. Something interesting happened, I started off not hitting it so well and by the end of my session I was making pretty good contact with great ball flight. It was probably the best I have ever hits a swing like that with my 7i.

 

The last 3-5 balls I just hit with a full swing. The results were good but improved a lot when I thought about doing Cast B to start my downswing. I hit very solid true fades versus an okay slight push fade. I have noticed on the range and course that I seem to hit the ball better with that swing thought/intent. So I'll need to keep at it.

 

Speaking of Monte's IG livestream from last week- for me the best part is when he talked about on the range versus on the course. On the range, you do not care where the ball goes. You're trying to change things via drills, slow motion, exaggeration, etc. You're not gonna hit the ball great all the time doing that and it's fine. On the course, forget all the swing stuff. You're just trying to hit the ball the best you can and need to accept bad shots happen. Don't be thinking about swing changes while playing. I am paraphrasing but that's my take on it. I thought it was very good to hear that coming from a top instructor. Level setting the process and how practice and course are not the same and shouldn't be treated the same.

 

It may have been a short session but I felt it was very productive. I hope to get again before my round Saturday to work on things more.

[95124hacker]

I hear that all the time: don’t have swing thoughts on the course while playing. BUT… then how do you bring your range game to the course and when? If you’re just focusing on target while playing, then what good are swing changes in the first place?  
 

So my philosophy (granted I don’t have any PGA Tour wins to back this up) is to implement swing changes immediately on the course & accept your score, unless you’re playing for a $15M FedEx Cup grand prize. Really who cares about score during a swing change? If you don’t try out swing changes on the course, you’re just delaying the learning curve.

[berndgeurts]

6 hours ago, 95124hacker said:

I hear that all the time: don’t have swing thoughts on the course while playing. BUT… then how do you bring your range game to the course and when? If you’re just focusing on target while playing, then what good are swing changes in the first place?  
 

So my philosophy (granted I don’t have any PGA Tour wins to back this up) is to implement swing changes immediately on the course & accept your score, unless you’re playing for a $15M FedEx Cup grand prize. Really who cares about score during a swing change? If you don’t try out swing changes on the course, you’re just delaying the learning curve.

I think there is a difference between changing your swing mid round and playing a round trying to swing your new swing. 

 

Changing mid round is a not preferable, It almost always leads to changing a swing on a shot result per shot. Find your miss and work on that. Not per shot, but 20-30 shots showing the same miss.