2020 MGA Rules Quiz - Q17

[rogolf]

17. In a stroke play competition with Local Rule G-4 (One Ball Rule) in effect, it is getting late in the day

and it is becoming more difficult to see the golf ball. A player’s tee shot embeds in the fairway. As

she is taking relief, her caddie advises her to use an orange ball that is the same brand and model as

the white ball she has been playing. She places the orange ball next to the spot where her drive

embedded, making sure not to repair the pitch mark. She hits her next shot short of the bunker in

front of the green and then chunks her next shot into the bunker. Since she is not a good bunker

player, her caddie advises her to take unplayable ball relief and play from outside the bunker. She

does so properly, noticing that her reference point happens to be on the spot where she hit her

previous shot, and pitches onto the green. How many penalty strokes has she incurred?

A. 4

B. 5

C. 6

D. 7

 

[Mr. Bean]

B, 5 penalty strokes.

As G-4 was in force and that orange ball was used there will be a 2 stroke penalty as color of a ball may not be changed, it is a different type of a ball. Then the player placed a ball instead of dropping it => 2 PS. After chunking the ball into a bunker she accidentally invokes S&D earning only 1 PS instead of 2. Total sum of penalty strokes is 5.

[Sawgrass]

You seem to be saying that a player deliberately choosing to take a two stroke penalty has that penalty automatically reduced to one stroke if the player, when accurately dropping in a relief area, drops in a place that could also be used for S&D. This automatic penalty reduction takes place without the player's knowledge?

If I'm correct that this is what you're asserting, can you point me to anything in the rules that justifies it?

[Mr. Bean]

'If I'm correct that this is what you're asserting, can you point me to anything in the rules that justifies it?'

I probably could if I wanted to take the time to search for it but I am relying on some principles laid out in the Rules and Decisions pre-2019 and I would be quite disappointed if those principles were discarded in this Big Bang.

From pre-2019 one particular case I remember vividly is a player making a stroke at a teed ball on the teeing ground. He misses and relocates the ball and makes another stroke, this time successful. As his ball was in play after the whiff he moved his ball in play and played from a wrong place thus earning 2 PS. However, the RBs had decided that this player involuntarily and unknowingly invoked S&D and he only incurred one PS.

If I am wrong in this I will be immensely disappointed in the RBs as I have for a quite many years adopted the principle of making the player suffer as little as possible and the case I described is a wonderful example of that principle.

P.S. This was one of the questions I answered wrong in the R&A level 3 test 4 years ago. The player incorrectly substituted his ball but as he at the same time invoked (unknowingly) S&D he only got 1 PS instead of 2.P.P.S. Where was it said that the player deliberately chose to take 2 PS?? It only said he was invoking unplayable Rule which includes S&D.

[Sawgrass]

Good point with your P.P.S.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

Darn. It took me longer to write all the other text...

[antip]

Credit where it is due, this is a really clever question but I think Mr B has nailed it. I'll confess my brain also went straight to 2SP for taking an unplayable from the bunker but you needed to stare and stare at that last sentence and ask what is that strange reference trying to say to get your brain to backpeddle.

The other observation this question lends itself to is that the quantity discount in Rule 1.3c(4) does not apply to MLR G-4, the one ball condition. The player is taking embedded ball relief (16.3) but does so incorrectly by placing rather than dropping, so gets the general penalty as outlined in the last bullet point in 14.3b(3). While 16.3 permits substituting another ball when returning a ball to play, that permission would not extend to a different ball in the presence of G-4. And while G-4 itself doesn't say it, the preamble to G-4 (p496 of Official Guide) states that balls of different colours are considered different balls.

[Newby]

#17 C Model Local Rule G-4; Rule 14.7; Rule 1.3c(4); Rule 19.3a 

[Mr. Bean]

I wonder if that answer is correct. R19.3a seems to confirm that she gets only 1 PS for the unplayable but how does 14.7 come into picture?

[antip]

Another fine example where just listing rule references is next to useless in explaining what they are thinking. They really should lift their game on this aspect.

[antip]

I agree. They seem to be doing 3*2SP, but that doesn't seem consistent with the rule references particularly to 19.3a.

Your 14.7 question? I suspect they are interpreting the words "places the orange ball next to the spot where her drive embedded" as alongside rather than "behind". If that ball is placed next to but not behind then part of the ball will be nearer the hole than the reference point (which is directly behind the embedded point) - hence ball is played from a wrong place (outside the relief area).

 

[Mr. Bean]

Next to or behind? Now that is lame if they are going that route! 'Next to' may be in front or behind or on the side.

[antip]

'Next to' may be in front or behind..

That's the point. A ball placed next to where the drive embedded is almost certainly going to be nearer the hole than the reference point - which is not where the drive embedded but is behind that point.

[limegreengent]

C' Mon Guys

The 14.7 penalty is for placing instead of dropping when taking embedded ball relief.

You both listed this breach in your original answers.

[antip]

And yet the place in the book that identifies this penalty is 14.3b(3), without specific reference to 14.7 in the sub-clause that deals with this issue (IMO it should do so). The presentation under 14.3b(3) is also flawed in it's indenting - the second paragraph is not a subset of 14.3b(3) - it refers equally to 14.3b(1) and 14.3b(2). Sloppy editing in evidence here.

[Mr. Bean]

I don't follow. Second paragraph of 14.3b(3) deals with dropping in the relief area while (1) deals with who must drop and (2) with how a ball must be dropped. Care to explain what you mean?

[rogolf]

Have we accounted for the placing instead of dropping as suggested by greenman?

[Mr. Bean]

See my post #2.

[rogolf]

Apologies.

[antip]

I'm not suggesting greenman's observation is not correct, just that the relevant rule reference itself does not refer to 14.7 specifically. So while I agree this could also be what the MGA is thinking, there is no certainty on this. This was the point of my first sentence in my #15.

Speculating what the MGA is thinking from their unexplained list of rules can be a messy exercise. IMO, their quiz would be more useful to all readers if they explained their thinking in words as well as rule references - just as our discussions in this forum have worked through the issues not just listed rules.

[antip]

Perhaps my meaning was not clear. By second paragraph in 14.3b(3), I meant the paragraph commencing "If the player does not drop again and instead.....etc", through to the end of the section - the second full paragraph below the heading (and the words joined with the heading). That paragraph applies to failure to comply with 14.3b(1), 14.3b(2) or 14.3b(3) but the indenting has been stuffed up.

[Mr. Bean]

I don't understand what you mean. I do not see any connection with 2nd paragraph of (3) with (1) nor (2), they deal with entirely different issues.

[Mr. Bean]

R14.7 would change nothing, it still comes down to R19.3a which IMO clearly states that if you are invoking option 19.2a (S&D) you would only get 1 PS. Cannot come up with 6 PS in total, must be missing something or MGA have got this one wrong.

[antip]

First, to be clear, this is nothing to do with MGA Q17, it is broader observation on 14.3b.

But if you are not following me here, then you are missing a significant feature of 14.3b. There are three things that must be done correctly: player must drop (14.3b(1)); must drop straight down etc (14.3b(2)); and must drop in RA (14.3b(3)).

If you get any of these three requirements wrong, then you have dropped in the wrong way and must follow the instructions in that last paragraph and its two bullet points immediately before 14.3c.

That material referred to is NOT limited to the wording above in 14.3b(3), it relates to any dropping in a wrong way under Rule 14.3b. The indenting has been screwed up, it should look like the last paragraph (before the Exception) in Rule 14.2d - that is, it should not be indented but the paragraph should align vertically with the "1" in "14.3b".

[limegreengent]

Antip

"And yet the place in the book that identifies this penalty is 14.3b(3), without specific reference to 14.7 in the sub-clause that deals with this issue (IMO it should do so). "

The place in the book is the penalty statement after the rules on dropping.

I.e after 14.3d before 14.4 Which clearly states the penalty is under 14.7.

 

[antip]

Yes, thank you, and in 25 additional locations for breaches of multiple rules.

[limegreengent]

Sorry Antip

There was no intent to upset you, but so that I may learn , can you let me know say 1 or 2 of those 25 or so multiple locations.

Thank you.

[Mr. Bean]

'If you get any of these three requirements wrong, then you have dropped in the wrong way and must follow the instructions in that last paragraph and its two bullet points immediately before 14.3c.'

Those two bullet points are not instructions but consequences. Instructions are given in 14.3c.

I think you are overanalyzing how the text has been laid out.

[Mr. Bean]

See last bullet point of Rule 14.3b(3). That clearly states the penalty and there is no reference to 14.7. Especially note the text 'placed when required to be dropped (no matter where it was played from)'.

[antip]

No sweat, no upset at all. Generic wrong place rule references appear in: 4.2b; 4.2c; 5.7d; 6.2b; 6.3c; 7.3; 8.1d; 9.1b; 9.3; 9.4; 9.5; 9.7; 11.1; 11.2; 13.1; 13.2c; 14.2; 14.3; 14.6; 15.1; 15.2; 15.3; 16.1; 16.2; 16.3; 16.4; 17.1; 17.2; 18.2; 18.3; 19.2; and 19.3. My '25' (it was late Your Honour) was an undercounting.

If you ever sit an R&A exam, they instruct you "Where the penalty for ...... playing ball from a wrong place in breach of a Rule is sought, it is the breach of the Rule itself that is required rather than Rule 14.7a." That is, when they want a rule reference, they want all those rules identified individually, not with 14.7a.