Fat shots / hanging back / etc.

[scratchmcgee]

Hey guys,

Bit of background first for context...

Played to a 1.3 Handicap last year on my home course (6,734 yards / 72.6 / 123). I keep my yardages within Arccos and have decent numbers. I've taken a few lessons (most recently with Martin Chuck) and been told I have a decent/good swing. But...I continue to struggle with hitting fat shots and it's just driving me crazy. I rarely have a swing stopping fat shot but there's definitely a good deal of shots that hit ground before impact.

From reviewing my swing I've detected a bit of reverse pivot to which Martin agreed somewhat. I also tend to play the ball really far back in my stance...most of the time without even me realizing it's that far back. It's just something that feels comfortable to me.

So with that being said I'm asking for any drills, thoughts, suggestions, etc. to stop hit fitting it fat and especially lose the hanging back feeling. I've watched several Youtube videos as well.

Tonight I put balls outside my left foot so I had to force myself to get left in an attempt to stop hanging back & chunking. Can't really say much to this other than it forced me to do the opposite of hanging back---maybe a step in the right direction? I'm all ears...please share.

Thanks,

[MonteScheinblum]

Need to get ball position right. Have to stay in left tilt longer and get your shoulder off your chin first move down.

Thats a guess without seeing it, but a very likely issue.

[scratchmcgee]

I saw your INSTA video regarding the shoulder off chin. Didn’t quite understand it though.

[scratchmcgee]

I just edited my post with video from a few weeks back that Martin reviewed. Look forward to hearing your thoughts...thanks!

[scratchmcgee]

 

[scratchmcgee]

Referencing the above pictures...could my head movement moving towards target on backswing & then back through downswing be causing my fat shots?

[Red4282]

Lot going on here, but i will say sometimes moving the ball back is counter productive when it comes to fat shots. Move it uncomfortably forward and that should shallow you out naturally. Be sure to keep your shaft leaning foward and not flip at it. It looks like you have a hint of early release, trying to help the ball “get up”. You also have a significant slide action which will also contribute to alot of fat/thin shots. It almost looks as if you have stack and tilt swing-and thats what i have found to be common issues with that swing theory.

[glk]

On left shoulder off chin. Or in your case, speeding up the arms. Arms need to move independent of shoulders. And don't forgot the left shoulder down longer (and increase the amount of left side bend a bit too).

 

[scratchmcgee]

Thanks @Red4282. In my first rounds of the year this past weekend I tried moving the ball up which felt uncomfortably forward primarily in an attempt to stop hanging back. I was surprised at how crisp and well I hit some of my irons...sure I had some bad ones but there were some really encouraging signs. Unfortunately last night was back to my old habits...thinking out loud I'm wondering if I moved the ball back in my stance because I don't recall feeling as uncomfortable but yet my shots were consistently worse (lot more fats).
I'm glad you noticed my hip slide...I've always struggled with that and haven't found a solution yet.
I don't know anything about the stack and tilt and certainly am not trying to swing that way. I've tried to add secondary tilt after researching Monte's info on it...I think it's helping but need to keep at it.

[scratch67]

Tilting left on backswing, get left shoulder over right hip.

Because of tilt left hips are sliding right a bit.

So because of above, on downswing you move opposite with hips and spine tilt. This causes right side to lower, fatties.

Take your address position with right leg against arm of couch, then turn to get left shoulder over right hip.

More shoulder power far less arm/hands effort on backswing.

[Red4282]

When i say uncomfortably forward, i mean more as a drill and practicing the technique and shallowing. Hope that wasn't confusing.

 

stack and tilt, really loads the weight on the lead foot and keeps it there. It may not be what you are doing but visually it looks close. Loading the front side with some slide and steep angle of attack.

 

as far as the slide, when you do your transition, try to feel like you are sitting your rear down in a chair and rotate from there.

load the trails side in the backswing, transition to “sit or squat, then turn and transfer the load to front side. Its a lot to take in i know, work on one thing at a time, use video feedback, and as always, just get a good instructor lol

[glk]

Do that lesson we talked about. Whether Monte or Martin.

Monte is actually doing live online versus video.

[scratchmcgee]

@glk I did a lesson with Martin Chuck and really enjoyed it. I got almost 2 lessons out of it...1.5 for sure.
Had some encouraging words as well as a few things to work on...he did agree I was tilting on backswing.
Id like to get a few more rounds playing & will probably hit @monte up for a lesson. That would be great to do it live online.

[glk]

Was this in person? what was the main area to work on? what drills did he give you? It's 20 questions, ha ha.

[Krt22]

You need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. If it feels comfortable, that means you aren't changing anything.

[Zitlow]

Speaking of uncomfortable this is a big move especially if you're trying to stack everything up at impact.. His COM, the marker was several inches ahead of his 7th cervical which is the center of the swing circle when he strikes the ball. His COM went back 7-8 inches in his back swing and twice as far in his downswing.

Most of our muscles work in tandem, one side stretches while the other side contracts. As an example, dorsal flex your right hand you'll feel tension. Now relax the muscle and what happens? The hand goes back to a state of rest. An analogy he used for the golf swing, it's like pulling an arrow back which puts tension on the bowstring and the bow. When you release the arrow the tension is released and the arrow flies.

His lower body is ahead of the ball at impact and upper body is behind the ball providing an opposing or holding force to counter the escape force in the club head.

 

 

[Soloman1]

I'm sorry, but how was that CoM estimated?

[glk]

bellybuttoncomometer - new fangled youtube tech.

[Krt22]

lol! Who needs force plates and GEARS when you can draw laser beam traces on 2D videos!

[scratchmcgee]

That's what I'm hoping...that the sliding of hips are an "effect" of my incorrect tilting on backswing. When I do that motion without club it feels more powerful but that I'm swaying way off the ball. But again as we say "feel is not real" so will use that to implement.

Thanks!

[scratchmcgee]

Unfortunately no as I'm in North Dakota and he's in AZ...maybe someday when I take a trip to play golf in AZ I can catch up with him.

First video was fixing my grip. He showed me that by having my grip so strong it was forcing my body into creating loft because the face was shut. By improving my grip and the corresponding club face my body would naturally start to have some better action. He mentioned he didn't have a big problem with my leaning to left---admitted he could see some reverse pivot but wasn't a high priority from what I gathered (surprised me).

I went to work on improving my grip. Within a few weeks I sent him two new videos with my grip. He complemented my grip change and noticed we could see less chicken wing on the face on swing as a result. He dove a bit more into the reverse pivot and making sure I make a full shoulder turn without leaning back to the left.

I was encouraged though as he told me I had a decent swing and could play good golf from my current swing...specifically he really liked my arm structure at the top of my backswing.

Main issue was to first correct my strong grip and making sure I get both hands on the club working together.

Next part was diving a bit more into the "minutia" and improving my backswing to stop the reverse pivot. For a drill he wants me to make shoulder turns into my backswing with club across shoulders.

He was nice and I enjoyed working with him...thanks for the nudge to get a lesson.

[scratchmcgee]

And that's part in my I felt I didn't swing as well last night. My mentality the first round was let's try something new...there's nothing to lose. Surprisingly I hit my irons pretty well. Fast forward a couple days and now I'm thinking about scoring and playing really well and my ball striking suffered. I think I relapsed into feeling comfortable again as I was trying to score and my shots got worse.

Thanks for the reminder!

[scratch67]

In the video posted, one about COM. Observe the right foot. I see many players where their trail heel comes up way to early.

 

[scratchmcgee]

So last night I tried to make an ACTUAL shoulder turn & get my left shoulder over to my right hip. Also tried to make sure I didn’t tilt left. When I broke the video down my head didn’t work to the left much at all...definitely better than previous.

felt uncomfortable, weird, etc. but really tried to focus on ingraining the new feeling.

Thanks for the helpful comments & support!

 

 

[glk]

A model of the grf during a swing. Red dot is com. Cop is aligned at setup. Cop moves and rapidly passes com. Com moves only a few inches in backswing but definitely moves forward a lot by end of swing. No way 7-8 inches in backswing unless one does a massive slide - that is almost half the width of the hips.

[glk]

An observation. Synching your arms and pivot is a big issue. Your arms really trail your pivot. In your backswing your arms continue moving past when your shoulders have turned sufficiently. The arms are now out of synch. You can either really speed them up in transition to get back in synch or you can have them in better synch in the first place. This is going to have a shorter arm swing length. Your slide is a effect of your arms trailing so much - you slide to move low point forward and avoid fat shots (probably why you used to have ball way back in stance).

From this point

To this point

You are moving your arms independent of your shoulder turn - getting out of synch - it appears you shoulders are turning more but it is just a reaction to further lifting of the arms.

Been there, done that. Need to train the arms to stop when the shoulders stop or as I mentioned compensate by resynching in transition.

For me, much easier to synch in backswing - and that first photo is plenty of width etc to hit the ball really hard - and if you are in synch you won't throw away wrist angles too early, won't need to slide for low point, etc and take advantage of rotation without a stall, . . . good things happen.

Take that yellow range bucket a(can use a small ball like a dodgeball also or something like a smartball but prefer a bigger ball more up in chest) and do this - it will not let you move your arms independent of your turn.

 

 

 

[Red4282]

Agree with glk with the arms. The second video looks much better and less flawed. One thing i noticed with the second video is the head dropping what looks to be about 6 inches in the backswing and staying there through impact. Could be the culprit of the fats shots as well. A drop is common with power hitters but 6 inches may be a little excessive.

[scratchmcgee]

@glk Thanks for the detailed observation and analysis. I agree and appreciate you including that drill for me to work on...look forward to working on it tonight. @Red4282 Appreciate the feedback! I noticed that a while back in reviewing some of my DTL swings...my head drops considerably on the backswing. I've searched and even asked a few aspiring pros I follow on IG for a drill but none that could be done by myself. The one I'm aware of is another person holding a club or alignment stick at my head to make sure I stay level. Any thoughts for a drill to keep my head from dropping on backswing?
Thanks,

[glk]

I got one of my small balls out and worked on it a bit myself this pm. Couple swings with it then a couple without. Not only does it get things in synch but find it really tightens up my motion. I have a couple of habits I need to focus - one is extending to finish backswing, second is to not protract my left shoulder blade and thereby extend my left arm (a bad habit when trying to get width in the past) - having that ball between my elbows helps keep that in check.

1% better every day.

 

 

[Red4282]

Best is just to have someone there and hold it. If unavailable use video feedback. If you look at most long hitting pros like rory, the head stays still on backswing, drops pretty significant on transition and downswing but at about p6 it rises back up to almost address levels. The left leg extending is usually what causes this sudden rise