Relief from yardage marker

[Sawgrass]

An area with holes so numerous that repeated drops or great distance for relief makes things objectionable.

[Mr. Bean]

So, in the end there is a reason for a committee to limit the options granted by the Rules.

Taking a relief from an IO is often quicker than from a MO, sometimes less quick. I guess that is one aspect to take on this matter. Especially if that MO must be put back to the place it was removed from.

[rogolf]

I can't imaging a national association in North America mandating Local Rules for every course in its jurisdiction! It would be an immediate failure.

[Mr. Bean]

There is one immediate failure sitting in that 'particular pale colored building' so I can understand you having a hard time understanding what we have or have had

A small study of geography might help, if you really want to understand.

EDIT: It is rather odd that you were not interested in which were the Local Rules, but instead were in such haste to overrule the entire idea. After all, quite many (if not all) tours all over the world have a Hard Card including various Local Rules overriding those of the course being played at. Maybe in our country we had been way ahead of some other countries in trying to unify certain practices, just like the tours have done.

[Newby]

All amateur competitions played in in England under the auspices of England Golf and all competitions played in my County (ie Yorkshire) played under the auspices of Yorkshire Golf (and I'm pretty sure this applies to all Counties in England) play to exactly the same Hard Card regardless of the course. eg all preferred Lies are 6". The OB/Lost ball Local Rule is never in force.

There may/will be some local course conditions which require a specific additional Local Rule. eg GUR, Integral Objects

[rogolf]

That sounds like a hard card for an association and only applies to that association's competitions. It's not the same as I read Mr. Bean's post that says the national association dictated four Local Rules that must be in effect at all clubs in the nation, not only for that national associations competitions. It's like England Golf saying that all yardage markers at all courses in England must be declared to be immovable obstructions.

[Newby]

Yes, I take the point.

Do I understand that Mr Bean's national association has now rescinded the idea?

[Mr. Bean]

That is correct, that happened a couple of years ago. However, even after that three of the four Local Rules were included in almost every course's Local Rules when applicable and for a good reason. Those were:

small stones in bunkers are Movable Obstructions (currently that LR is not allowed by the RBs)free relief from Immovable Obstructions close to the putting green (currently F-5)if a ball hit an elevated power line or similar the stroke had to be cancelled (currently E-11)Personally I found the 'mandatory' LRs very handy. Everyone knew them and they were automatically in force everywhere, well at least on every course I ever played. No course I have heard did use the option not to have those four LRs in place.

Afa Hard Cards are concerned I have understood that they have the same purpose. All competitions under certain organizer are played with same LRs and CoCs with additional LRs specific to the course in question. In essence, exactly what we had in place in Finland also outside competitions. The purpose of both is to minimize confusion and avoid 'traps'. I cannot see that being an immediate failure, quite on the contrary.

[Sawgrass]

Everybody should add E-12. Best LR in the book.

[antip]

Agree it's better than what it is an alternative to (a lurking rules-gotcha penalty), but I think it's convoluted compared with a simple statement - if doing BOL relief, the relief area is within 1CL of the reference point (selected or determined by the rule), subject to not being closer to the hole than the edge of the area from which relief is originally taken (PA or bunker) or the original position of the ball (unplayable ball).

[Sawgrass]

My issue/concern with the base rule is that as a ref or opponent, you don’t know if the player as mentally selected a reference point in front of their drop spot, so you thereby don’t know if their dropped ball which comes to rest six inches in front of where it hit is in the relief area or not. Failing to intervene might cost the player two strokes, intervening might be annoying and will certainly cost everyone time.

[sui generis]

It's just my opinion, but the existing BOL procedure is needlessly complex and E-12, while solving a problem, creates a greater one.

[Mr. Bean]

The original principle of BOL relief was dead on birth, somehow the RBs did not understand that. It should have been 1 cl in every direction from the point the ball first touches the ground. Easy to evaluate, easy to monitor.

[sui generis]

Yes, something like that is easy for the player. I would describe it as a drop into and remain within a "lane" two club-lengths wide. Go back as far as you wish.

[antip]

Agree with the principle and think Sui's 2CL lane works best - 1CL either side of the line - the formula above potentially extends the RA to 2CL either side, 4CL total if the 'point the ball first touches the ground' is not anchored..

[Mr. Bean]

Would that be a problem? For a red PA it is already 2 CL. Yet I agree, Sui's proposal is very suitable, maybe that should be sent to the RBs.

Another (and quite simple to implement) alternative would be declaring the RA to cover the area behind the point where the ball first touches the ground when dropped. So any time the ball bounces forward it must be re-dropped.

[James the Hogan Fan]

As in defining the relief area as the entire "corridor" one clublength to each side of the line, from the margin of the penalty area to as far back as desired?

I do think this would be the simplest and best method. I know at present the player need only mark the front of the intended relief area, but I have wondered "why?"

[rogolf]

Another (and quite simple to implement) alternative would be declaring the RA to cover the area behind the point where the ball first touches the ground when dropped. So any time the ball bounces forward it must be re-dropped.

Isn't that essentially what 17.1d(2) says now?

[Mr. Bean]

No, it does not.

A drop must be renewed only if that ball ends up closer to the hole than the reference point that can and should be chosen by the player. In my suggestion the reference point would always be that spot where the ball first touches the ground.

[Mr. Bean]

The reference point need not be marked but it should be chosen by the player. The reason for defining a reference point is the approach RBs chose for this Rule and that is the pitfall of it. Then again, the general idea throughout the Rules is that a dropped ball needs to stay within a certain area. The corridor idea would change it so the uniformity would be lost.

[rogolf]

Imo, the Rule essentially says that- if the player does not identify the reference point, the reference point is the point on the straight line that is equidistant from the hole as where the ball first struck the ground.

[Mr. Bean]

Indeed, but that is just one of the options. I would take away the other option. Got it?

[rogolf]

What is the other "option" in back-on-the-line relief?

[sui generis]

Ah, the "why." Of course, I don't really know, but I suspect the 2019 committee bound themselves to their definition of Relief Area and one of its essential elements, the Reference Point. Since a "line" cannot be a "point," we're stuck with the awkward back-on-the-line procedures in R17 and R19.

That aside, 2019 did us all a great service by simplifying most things. I could advocate for a couple of further simplifications, but everyone here has already heard them and they think I'm an idiot. ?

[Mr. Bean]

There are two (2) possible options how the reference point is determined:

The player determines it either by marking it physically or just in his mindThe player does not define it but just drops a ball and the ball defines the RPOption #2 is the problem here as described earlier by Sawgrass. So, I would remove option #1 altogether leaving only option #2. Thus any ball bouncing or rolling closer to hole than this particular point would have to be re-dropped. As the both the players and the referees know that there is no room for misunderstandings as there is today.

All clear to you now..?

[James the Hogan Fan]

A clever player in that situation would, probably quite often, wind up being able to place his ball. He'd simply find a spot along the line where the ball will likely bounce forward, drop, redrop, and place, since any forward hop would be cause for a re-drop.

(I realize there isn't much to prevent a player from dropping near the margins of his relief area regardless, but it becomes easier if that margin is the point where the ball lands)

[Mr. Bean]

That possibility a clever player already has. He just marks the RP with a tee and proceeds the way you just described.

But are you sure that player would (quite often) want to hit from downhill if there are level places available?

[antip]

So any time the ball bounces forward it must be re-dropped.

That part is impractical. If the ground is sloping towards the hole you have a problem that would require drop, drop, place virtually all the time.

[Mr. Bean]

That may happen today as well, and as already mentioned by James and myself, a clever player would do that every time he wants to place his ball. Also I believe that option would be more practical than the situation Sawgrass brought up where a referee is not sure whether he should intervene or not.

[sui generis]

Let's drop within the "sui generis relief area" which is one club-length on either side of the "reference line" (new Definition required).

After the drop the ball must end up 1) no closer to the hole than where it crossed the edge of the penalty area or where it was when declared unplayable, and 2) within one club-length of the "reference line."

We shouldn't care if it bounces forward, backward or sideways, so long as it comes to rest in the relief area. The entire relief area will ALWAYS be further from the hole.

That poxy Model Local Rule E-12 can go to blazes.

G'night, my friends. ?