Hogan Swing for powerfade66 Analysis

[virtuoso]

Give it to me straight powerfade:

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by virtuoso

[golfsticks]

 

[nitram]

If there was a Chesterfield in sight I'd think it was the man himself.

[Jeselnik]

Thanks for the great vid, nice groove.  I'm not seeing the 'weight shift', maybe different angle, doubtful.

 

Just go play.

 

JNIK

[virtuoso]

20 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

Thanks for the great vid, nice groove.  I'm not seeing the 'weight shift', maybe different angle, doubtful.

 

Just go play.

 

JNIK

There is weight shift, but it's not really like Hogan per se.....there are some issues.

 

[powerfade66]

Easy. Your right shoulder, right hip and right knee are still nothing like Hogan. The finish is forced. It’s a stack and tilt swing with a posed finish. 

[virtuoso]

52 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

Easy. Your right shoulder, right hip and right knee are still nothing like Hogan. The finish is forced. It’s a stack and tilt swing with a posed finish. 

Are you sure you don't want to mention more specifically the backswing issues. That is where the problems start. It is really not a stack/tilt backswing. This angle should show more clearly the backswing issues:

 

[virtuoso]

 

 

[powerfade66]

58 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Are you sure you don't want to mention more specifically the backswing issues. That is where the problems start. It is really not a stack/tilt backswing. This angle should show more clearly the backswing issues:

 

Yes. I’m sure. 

[virtuoso]

31 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

Yes. I’m sure. 

Understood.

[Divot License]

Whether it's an exact duplicate or not of Hogans doesn't matter to me, it's a great swing that you should be proud of @virtuoso

[virtuoso]

7 hours ago, Jedaigeki said:

Whether it's an exact duplicate or not of Hogans doesn't matter to me, it's a great swing that you should be proud of @virtuoso

 

Thanks man, I'll keep working on it.

[powerfade66]

7 hours ago, Jedaigeki said:

Whether it's an exact duplicate or not of Hogans doesn't matter to me, it's a great swing that you should be proud of @virtuoso

Oh it’s a nice move. No question. But it is posted in a Hogan forum in his own thread which reads “Hogan Swing...” So that’s what we are debating.

 

Thought it pains me to say it I think it is about as close as I’ve seen. 

[powerfade66]

I’d widen your stance by just a shoe width or so such that at the top you can move into it/ land on it a bit more. See how the edge of Hogan’s left hip is on the inside of the left heel where yours is more over the heel. Small details but as you well know it can affect the motion. Yes Hogan moves left in the backswing but he’s not the whole way there yet. Which is where he departs from a Stack n Tilt type move. He bumps  right in takeaway then mid way through the backswing sets up his fall left which isn’t finished until mid downswing. 
 

I know a lot of this you’d already know so not meaning to be condescending or disrespectful. Just my thoughts. 

[virtuoso]

Well my take would be that the underlying core movements are fundamentally different in how the body parts relate to each other and the sequencing. 

 

Basically, the shoulder turn going back is too early and too flat. The arms are way too over-rotated early and there is a bunch of slack in the system. You can see very clearly in the real Hogan, that his initial move away with the arms takes all the slack out of the system at the very beginning. And then he holds that tension all the way through the tranny, into the early downswing, and that sets him up to be able to keep the pivot train moving in sync and ahead for way longer than everyone else.

 

I get to the top and have to do something with the slack, so I start spinning the hip forward and use that increased differential to tighten everything up. Lots of bad things happen because of that. Now, I can't shallow the shaft plane as a function of bigger frame of motion--it becomes an unnatural manual laying down of the plane. And, while I'm laying it down artificially, my shoulders and hips (again, to out-race the slack) have started getting too open. The whole pivot is going to start to cave in. 

 

So, at P6 my body is now running out options, and starts to stall. The effort to jump the body in front of the arms early to remove slack is now going to backfire. There is going to be a rubber band effect. The stalling pivot will now slingshot the arms forward into a throw to find equilibrium. The swing now has become a 1-2-3 move instead of a constant heavy pull.

 

The most obvious sign that everything is caved in at P9 is the fact that my left elbow had folded into my left side and shortened the radius dramatically and very early. Based on what I'm doing now, there would be physically no way to have both arms extended and slung off hogans pivot late at P9.5.....which is an obvious real Hogan signature move (result). That's why the finish looks fake. My finish is not fake, its the natural result of what I'm doing....the problem is that its not at all what real Hogan does. I pop out to the max two-arm radius early and it folds back in early. He gets both arms straight later, because of sustained proper sequencing and then has the massive collapse at the very end.

 

That's a very basic overview of the core problems. All the micro moves that I've planned to incorporate to start to get at the real Hogan sequence are numerous, and I'm too lazy to type it all here. But, one of the many things that have to change in my mind, is the idea the the hips and shoulders are separate units that should be wound and unwound against each other. That is faulty visualization of their function. For the purposes of Hogan replication, the units should be thought of as joints: femurs into the torso, humerus out of the torso, rigid spine connecting them.....and then later fine tuning with spine bend.

Edited January 27, 2021 by virtuoso

[powerfade66]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Well my take would be that the underlying core movements are fundamentally different in how the body parts relate to each other and the sequencing. 

 

Basically, the shoulder turn going back is too early and too flat. The arms are way too over-rotated early and there is a bunch of slack in the system. You can see very clearly in the real Hogan, that his initial move away with the arms takes all the slack out of the system at the very beginning. And then he holds that tension all the way through the tranny, into the early downswing, and that sets him up to be able to keep the pivot train moving in sync and ahead for way longer than everyone else.

 

I get to the top and have to do something with the slack, so I start spinning the hip forward and use that increased differential to tighten everything up. Lots of bad things happen because of that. Now, I can't shallow the shaft plane as a function of bigger frame of motion--it becomes an unnatural manual laying down of the plane. And, while I'm laying it down artificially, my shoulders and hips (again, to out-race the slack) have started getting too open. The whole pivot is going to start to cave in. 

 

So, at P6 my body is now running out options, and starts to stall. The effort to jump the body in front of the arms early to remove slack is now going to backfire. There is going to be a rubber band effect. The stalling pivot will now slingshot the arms forward into a throw to find equilibrium. The swing now has become a 1-2-3 move instead of a constant heavy pull.

 

The most obvious sign that everything is caved in at P9 is the fact that my left elbow had folded into my left side and shortened the radius dramatically and very early. Based on what I'm doing now, there would be physically no way to have both arms extended and slung off hogans pivot late at P9.5.....which is an obvious real Hogan signature move (result). That's why the finish looks fake. My finish is not fake, its the natural result of what I'm doing....the problem is that its not at all what real Hogan does. I pop out to the max two-arm radius early and it folds back in early. He gets both arms straight later, because of sustained proper sequencing and then has the massive collapse at the very end.

 

That's a very basic overview of the core problems. All the micro moves that I've planned to incorporate to start to get at the real Hogan sequence are numerous, and I'm too lazy to type it all here. But, one of the many things that have to change in my mind, is the idea the the hips and shoulders are separate units that should be wound and unwound against each other. That is faulty visualization of their function. For the purposes of Hogan replication, the units should be thought of as joints: femurs into the torso, humerus out of the torso, rigid spine connecting them.....and then later fine tuning with spine bend.

I don’t think Hogan approached it from a modern view like you have. What if going back you firm up the left arm a bit and think tilt a bit more than turn after the bump to the right. Look at how he kinda kicks in that left knee at the end of the backswing to tighten the cogs as you put it. I believe he has some parts very firm and some quite relaxed. It’s a very Wild Bill Melhorn relaxed joints and supple quickness idea. Though Tommy Bolt often spoke of very firm left wrist and arm. Yet look at his follow through and you have the right shoulder wrapping around and under the chin àla Hogan. With the arms collapsing late as you say. Vijay has a lot of Hogan. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by powerfade66

[Grayback1973]

V, your move is the closest modern swing I've seen to Hogan(Denny Shute was by far the closest but I believe he was before Hogan's time?) but I agree with PF that your whole right side doesn't match up coming down and through the ball. Hogan's right elbow was way closer to his body which automatically pulled his shoulder lower and closer to the ball which also raised his left hip higher. 

 

He rotated on that slanted plane and never went into extension until long after impact.Your right shoulder is still pretty high at impact which is related to early releasing and premature extension.

 

All that said I have always loved your swing and admire the hard work and results you've managed to achieve!

Edited January 29, 2021 by Grayback1973

[powerfade66]

1 hour ago, Grayback1973 said:

V, your move is the closest modern swing I've seen to Hogan(Denny Chute was by far the closest but I believe he was before Hogan's time?) but I agree with PF that your whole right side doesn't match up coming down and through the ball. Hogan's right elbow was way closer to his body which automatically pulled his shoulder lower and closer to the ball which also raised his left hip higher. 

 

He rotated on that slanted plane and never went into extension until long after impact.Your right shoulder is still pretty high at impact which is related to early releasing and premature extension.

 

All that said I have always loved your swing and admire the hard work and results you've managed to achieve!

Good post. The lowering of right shoulder, hip, knee and late right arm go hand in hand (or arm). Nelson did it better than anyone. I have a heap of VHS tapes where his swing is analysed by guys like Dave Marr who say his dip was a fault. Nelson wouldn’t say so. He was very set on his swing very early on and (so he says) didn’t tinker. Middlecoff and Lema did that move as well as any. Which makes sense when Lema was coached by Nelson. Trevino, Niemann...
 

I was looking at some Denny Chute swing pics last night. I’ll post if I can find again. I have over 1000 golf books. *face palm*

[powerfade66]

Tiger’s Haney/Hogan years before Miller knew what he was doing. 
 

[powerfade66]

*vid removed

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by powerfade66

[powerfade66]

It’s only fair I put one up. It’s not Hogan. I’d like to get it deeper going back but being tall makes that difficult. Need to work on flexibility. 

[nitram]

For some reason I have audio but no video on both submissions.

[powerfade66]

6 minutes ago, nitram said:

For some reason I have audio but no video on both submissions.

Must be a compatibility issue. Mine are in mp4. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by powerfade66

[nitram]

I have no idea. At times I have issues posting videos as well.

[Gsea]

24 minutes ago, nitram said:

For some reason I have audio but no video on both submissions.

works for me. everything works on a Mac 🙂

[nitram]

I'm also on a Mac and using Firefox...

 

Honestly glad it's working for someone.

[Gsea]

22 minutes ago, nitram said:

I'm also on a Mac and using Firefox...

 

Honestly glad it's working for someone.

Thats good you are on a Mac 🙂 Not sure why it wouldn't work, only difference is I use Safari. 

[powerfade66]

3 minutes ago, Gsea said:

Thats good you are on a Mac 🙂 Not sure why it wouldn't work, only difference is I use Safari. 

Love my Macs. Though I recently got a non Mac laptop. Still using the big screen iMac though. 

[hoganfan924]

2 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

Must be a compatibility issue. Mine are in mp4. 

I get a pop-up from the microsoft store that I have to download a Codec file for $0.99to be able to view the video.  I recently upgraded to Windows 10, so that probably had something to do with it.

[powerfade66]

 

Where’s @virtuosogone? I’m looking more like a Beatle that’s let himself go for 6 months than The Hawk. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by powerfade66
update